Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Tim Wood]

Ya I think you're right about the illusion. However, I think most 55cm joe 
riders would also ride a 52 Clem, and the 52 Clem has a 61cm tt which I think 
compensates well for swept back bars. Maybe the joe will be more versatile in 
the bar selection dept. meaning it would be suitable to run uprights or drops. 

When I found out prior to delivery that my 59 Clem had a 64cm tt I was 
concerned as all my other bikes are all around 57-59, however it feels great. I 
am loving the extra room, and while drop bars are probably out of the question, 
I wouldn't want the top tube or reach to be any less.  In fact I am probably 
going to swap out the boscos for albas as sometimes I feel the bars are too 
close. 

Cheers.. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

I briefly rode the 51 Joe at rivHQ. My size is 55, so it was a bit
small, but it was totally ridable. I liked the new bars, and that was
the thing I was most interested in checking out. I'm anticipating
mounting the levers more forward and spending at least 50% of my time
with my hands just behind the curves. I'll have to move back a bit
when I want to brake/shift, but this will give me more hand positions
to brake from, since you just need to grab the end of the lever with a
couple finger to brake. They look like sit-up-and-beg bars, but the
best feature (I think) is that they totally work for more stretched
out as well, but allow you to sit up more if/when you want.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Tim Wood  wrote:
> Ya I think you're right about the illusion. However, I think most 55cm joe 
> riders would also ride a 52 Clem, and the 52 Clem has a 61cm tt which I think 
> compensates well for swept back bars. Maybe the joe will be more versatile in 
> the bar selection dept. meaning it would be suitable to run uprights or drops.
>
> When I found out prior to delivery that my 59 Clem had a 64cm tt I was 
> concerned as all my other bikes are all around 57-59, however it feels great. 
> I am loving the extra room, and while drop bars are probably out of the 
> question, I wouldn't want the top tube or reach to be any less.  In fact I am 
> probably going to swap out the boscos for albas as sometimes I feel the bars 
> are too close.
>
> Cheers..
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Surlyprof]

I also thought the proportions looked a little funky but I'm sure it rides 
great (like if Sam and Clem could have a lovechild).  I'm guessing it 
climbs very well.  The impression of a short top tube may be an illusion 
due to the lengthened rear triangle.  The geometry chart lists the 55's tt 
at 58.3.  That's almost a full cm longer than my 56 canti Hillborne (57.5 
tt).  My concern was that the reach was getting too long but I think an 
additional cm would feel just about perfect for me.  The grips on the photo 
actually extend back farther than the Albastache does on my Sam.

John

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:04:52 PM UTC-8, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, here or in other posts, but there 
> are some nice photos of the choco bar in staff bikes on grants cheviot. Not 
> sure how long they've been up, I pop by the staff bikes area for accessory 
> inspiration once in a while and just noticed. Kinda looks like a Bosco with 
> less rise.  I agree, the built up appa looks a little proportionally wacky, 
> but then again so does my Clem and I love it. But the 55 joe looks a little 
> cramped in the top tube/reach department. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[William R.]

Yes! Very nice. Digging those Conti Retro Ride tires. I wonder if those are 
the 2.0" or 2.2" versions. I would be all set if it came with the latter 
(or something comparable) instead of the spec'ed Kenda's that I will be 
replacing immediately. But yeah... it looks great.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[James Warren]

That is really nice.-Original Message-
From: Philip Kim <philipw...@gmail.com>
Sent: Dec 18, 2015 11:03 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

complete build joe on the riv blog.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Philip Kim]

complete build joe on the riv blog.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

It looks like it has the stem+bar cockpit rather than the bullmoose 
version.  It's a Nitto cromo stem and an aluminum Nitto handlebar.  

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 12:39:57 PM UTC-8, William R. wrote:
>
> Yes! Very nice. Digging those Conti Retro Ride tires. I wonder if those 
> are the 2.0" or 2.2" versions. I would be all set if it came with the 
> latter (or something comparable) instead of the spec'ed Kenda's that I will 
> be replacing immediately. But yeah... it looks great.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[sameness]

Man, I've gotta figure out a way to test ride one of these and see what's 
what, because to my eyes, almost everything about that bike looks kinda... 
wacky?

"You may not like it now but you will
You may not like it now but you will
The future will not stand still..."

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-8, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> complete build joe on the riv blog.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Tim Wood]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, here or in other posts, but there are 
some nice photos of the choco bar in staff bikes on grants cheviot. Not sure 
how long they've been up, I pop by the staff bikes area for accessory 
inspiration once in a while and just noticed. Kinda looks like a Bosco with 
less rise.  I agree, the built up appa looks a little proportionally wacky, but 
then again so does my Clem and I love it. But the 55 joe looks a little cramped 
in the top tube/reach department. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Justin August]

Betty Foys also have an off diameter post. 

-J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Clems are 29.8. I would hazard a guess that the App would fall into this 
size, but it is a guess based on zero info.

On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:31:36 PM UTC-5, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>
> Do any riv bikes not have 27.2 seatposts? That seems to be the 
> standard size of the posts that riv sells. I tried to check the geo 
> spreadsheet, but no data there. 
>
> Speaking of upgrades... What tires are folks thinking about? Anybody 
> planning on just wearing out the included kenda kwicks? Or anybody 
> have experience with them? 
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Dave Johnston  > wrote: 
> > Anybody know the seatpost size? 27.2?  I've already started identifying 
> > upgrade parts from my stash. 
> > 
> > -Dave 
> > 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[David Johnston]

Seems like such a weird size if so. I guess I could always get a shim.

http://aroadbike4u.com/product/2.6mm-shim-27.2-seatpost-to-29.8-sku-st0226-qc281.htm



On 12/14/15, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch
 wrote:
> Clems are 29.8. I would hazard a guess that the App would fall into this
> size, but it is a guess based on zero info.
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:31:36 PM UTC-5, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>
>> Do any riv bikes not have 27.2 seatposts? That seems to be the
>> standard size of the posts that riv sells. I tried to check the geo
>> spreadsheet, but no data there.
>>
>> Speaking of upgrades... What tires are folks thinking about? Anybody
>> planning on just wearing out the included kenda kwicks? Or anybody
>> have experience with them?
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Dave Johnston > > wrote:
>> > Anybody know the seatpost size? 27.2?  I've already started identifying
>> >
>> > upgrade parts from my stash.
>> >
>> > -Dave
>> >
>> > --
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>> Groups
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>> an
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>> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 8:03:18 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Clems are 29.8. I would hazard a guess that the App would fall into this 
> size, but it is a guess based on zero info.
>
>
>>
I believe it happened on the Clem only because of a mistake by the lug 
manufacturer.  There was a Blug entry that said something like :  "Can we 
just call it serendipity, in the sprit of Clem-ness?"  I'd wager that the 
Appaloosa has the normal 27.2.

BTW:  shims don't work well aesthetically, because of the point at the top 
of the seat tube lug.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well there you go, serendipity. When putting together my Clementine, it did 
strike me as a bit odd, the massive seat post. But if that's the story, the 
one lug on the bike changed the spec of most of the other tubing. I guess 
not a huge deal since the rest of the bike is tigged. Based on this info, I 
officially withdraw my hazardous guess and retreat back to the sidelines.

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 11:01:41 AM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 8:03:18 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Clems are 29.8. I would hazard a guess that the App would fall into this 
>> size, but it is a guess based on zero info.
>>
>>
>>>
> I believe it happened on the Clem only because of a mistake by the lug 
> manufacturer.  There was a Blug entry that said something like :  "Can we 
> just call it serendipity, in the sprit of Clem-ness?"  I'd wager that the 
> Appaloosa has the normal 27.2.
>
> BTW:  shims don't work well aesthetically, because of the point at the top 
> of the seat tube lug.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

It shouldn't be long until they have the JoeApp built up. I wonder if they will 
post pictures on the Blug right away or make us wait? 

Excited,
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Timothy Miller]

I pushed the button on the last day. I ordered one in mid Nov. then 
chickened out and canceled the order, but couldn't stand it so I finally 
did it for keeps. Over the past three months I think I've read everything 
on the Riv site. I liked the Atlantis, but think the Joe App will suit my 
needs.

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 5:06:10 AM UTC-6, William R. wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew. Short answer is no. The only thing close to the final Joe 
> Apploosa that we will get in Feb/March is the 55cm Proto Appaloosa that was 
> featured in the Blug announcement. And that frames geo doesn't really 
> correspond to the final geo provided. If I were close enough to Riv HQ I 
> think you could go test a Cheviot for long chain stay feel and a Sam for 
> size and they would give you a pretty good idea.
>
> Bill in Westchester, NY
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Dave Johnston]

Anybody know the seatpost size? 27.2?  I've already started identifying 
upgrade parts from my stash.

-Dave 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

Do any riv bikes not have 27.2 seatposts? That seems to be the
standard size of the posts that riv sells. I tried to check the geo
spreadsheet, but no data there.

Speaking of upgrades... What tires are folks thinking about? Anybody
planning on just wearing out the included kenda kwicks? Or anybody
have experience with them?

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Dave Johnston  wrote:
> Anybody know the seatpost size? 27.2?  I've already started identifying
> upgrade parts from my stash.
>
> -Dave
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

I just held the frame in my hands. I can't say anything about clearance for 
60s. I will say that I'll certainly never run 60s, and that I'm not worried 
about clearance.  So I'm probably no help 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

Bill,   Did you happen to get a feel for tire clearance, beyond what is 
obliquely visible from the latest photos?  It looks like the 55 Big Ben 
fits ok, but might not provide room for fenders.  Or would it?  Is the rear 
triangle more gracious than the new fork crown?  Do you think there's any 
chance a 60 could fit, with or without fenders - even if it doesn't satisfy 
the "legal" clearance requirement that manufactures have to state?

I'm thinking about this bike yet again, but lack of ability to run a big 
tire could solve my decision dilemma  quickly.  I decided to speed up the 
build on my Clem and, unfortunately, it does appear that it is not going to 
be a good fit physically.   A 58 Joe might be just enough smaller but, if 
it meant giving up fatter tires, I'd probably choose to compromise and just 
stick with what I have.



On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 12:02:41 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Patrick
>
> I visited this morning and confirmed that the Butterscotch frame on the 
> BLUG is in fact a 55.  It's still not built, but I held it.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

It did not strike me as greenish at all.  Will called it butternut, which I 
think seemed right.  

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 2:51:25 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Hey Bill, is it more orange-ish or green-ish? The recent photos look quite 
> different from the first full-frame pic.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Joe Bernard]

Hey Bill, is it more orange-ish or green-ish? The recent photos look quite 
different from the first full-frame pic.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

Bill:

That's good. Very good!

Perhaps they are waiting for "standard build parts" before building it up, eh?

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> Patrick
>
> I visited this morning and confirmed that the Butterscotch frame on the BLUG
> is in fact a 55.  It's still not built, but I held it.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 7:28:56 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bill! This is giving me the happy feels. I'm hoping it's built
>> up and ready for a test ride next time I'm in the neighborhood. Maybe
>> a very long test ride. :)
>>
>> chee-hoo!!
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>> >
>> > "I'm wondering if this is another 51, or if this one is a 55. If I were
>> > able to actually read the tire size on the big bens to see if it's a
>> > 650b or 700c wheel, that would answer the question. "
>> >
>> > I took the rear wheel shot and measured the seat tube length, the
>> > chainstay
>> > length and the wheel radius.  It's close but I think that's a 55,
>> > because
>> > the seat tube (center to top) is a tiny bit longer than the chainstay
>> > length.  If it was a 51, the seat tube length would be a tiny bit
>> > smaller
>> > than the chainstay length.  I could be wrong though with my imprecise
>> > measuring.
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

There is now a full side view pic up on the Blug for those requesting it.

This just looks like a very cool bike. The fork is so different for Riv and so 
awesome.

Cheers!
Chris 

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Shoji Takahashi]

Huge rear triangle(s?)-- nearly the same size as the main triangle! 
shoji


On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 3:44:35 AM UTC-5, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> There is now a full side view pic up on the Blug for those requesting it.
>
> This just looks like a very cool bike. The fork is so different for Riv 
> and so awesome.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick

I visited this morning and confirmed that the Butterscotch frame on the 
BLUG is in fact a 55.  It's still not built, but I held it.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 7:28:56 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>
> Thanks Bill! This is giving me the happy feels. I'm hoping it's built 
> up and ready for a test ride next time I'm in the neighborhood. Maybe 
> a very long test ride. :) 
>
> chee-hoo!! 
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote: 
> > 
> > "I'm wondering if this is another 51, or if this one is a 55. If I were 
> > able to actually read the tire size on the big bens to see if it's a 
> > 650b or 700c wheel, that would answer the question. " 
> > 
> > I took the rear wheel shot and measured the seat tube length, the 
> chainstay 
> > length and the wheel radius.  It's close but I think that's a 55, 
> because 
> > the seat tube (center to top) is a tiny bit longer than the chainstay 
> > length.  If it was a 51, the seat tube length would be a tiny bit 
> smaller 
> > than the chainstay length.  I could be wrong though with my imprecise 
> > measuring. 
> > 
> > Bill 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Edwin W]

What drew said!

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 10:42:47 AM UTC-6, drew wrote:
>
> Haha. Bill you should be paid by rivendell and my wife should put a hit on 
> you. i think if there was a frame presale around 1200 now, i would not be 
> able to say no to that. later, if frames are being sold and i could 
> save/strategize, i'd go to 1600$ no problem. right now, dropping 2400$ 
> right before the holidays and then waiting months to strip the bike/sell 
> off the parts/move over other parts/sell the sam hillborne etc there 
> are just a few too many barriers to make it a worthwhile endeavor, when i 
> dont need another bike. 
>
> im just saying, if a frame option was out there, my impulse buying 
> tendency would not resist. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Haha, you guys both need to learn some things about N+1.  :-)You buy 
the complete and tell your wife that the parts were practically free.  Ride 
the bike and keep your Hillborne at least until Summer.  When Rivendell is 
only selling Hillbornes complete, you save the day for somebody who is 
handwringing and sell them your Hillborne frame.  Then you hold on to a 
build kit and wait patiently for another awesome frameset to present 
itself, and you tell your wife that bike was practically free because you 
had all the parts.  

Circle of life, people!  Circle of life.  Wheels keep spinning

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:42:47 AM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> Haha. Bill you should be paid by rivendell and my wife should put a hit on 
> you. i think if there was a frame presale around 1200 now, i would not be 
> able to say no to that. later, if frames are being sold and i could 
> save/strategize, i'd go to 1600$ no problem. right now, dropping 2400$ 
> right before the holidays and then waiting months to strip the bike/sell 
> off the parts/move over other parts/sell the sam hillborne etc there 
> are just a few too many barriers to make it a worthwhile endeavor, when i 
> dont need another bike. 
>
> im just saying, if a frame option was out there, my impulse buying 
> tendency would not resist. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

"I'm wondering if this is another 51, or if this one is a 55. If I were 
able to actually read the tire size on the big bens to see if it's a 
650b or 700c wheel, that would answer the question. "

I took the rear wheel shot and measured the seat tube length, the chainstay 
length and the wheel radius.  It's close but I think that's a 55, because 
the seat tube (center to top) is a tiny bit longer than the chainstay 
length.  If it was a 51, the seat tube length would be a tiny bit smaller 
than the chainstay length.  I could be wrong though with my imprecise 
measuring.

Bill


 

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[drew]

Bill, i have an idea. you buy several complete appaloosas, strip them and 
sell us the frames. then we sell you our old frames. you can then build 
them up with the parts from the joe and resell them as completes to the 
people who bought the appaloosas but are inevitably unhappy with the 
real-life color that they end up being. 

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Quit my day job and open up Rivelo South?  It wouldn't lose too much money. 
 :-)

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:44:13 AM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> Bill, i have an idea. you buy several complete appaloosas, strip them and 
> sell us the frames. then we sell you our old frames. you can then build 
> them up with the parts from the joe and resell them as completes to the 
> people who bought the appaloosas but are inevitably unhappy with the 
> real-life color that they end up being. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

Thanks Bill! This is giving me the happy feels. I'm hoping it's built
up and ready for a test ride next time I'm in the neighborhood. Maybe
a very long test ride. :)

chee-hoo!!

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
> "I'm wondering if this is another 51, or if this one is a 55. If I were
> able to actually read the tire size on the big bens to see if it's a
> 650b or 700c wheel, that would answer the question. "
>
> I took the rear wheel shot and measured the seat tube length, the chainstay
> length and the wheel radius.  It's close but I think that's a 55, because
> the seat tube (center to top) is a tiny bit longer than the chainstay
> length.  If it was a 51, the seat tube length would be a tiny bit smaller
> than the chainstay length.  I could be wrong though with my imprecise
> measuring.
>
> Bill
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[BSWP]

Folks, I kid you not:

"We at *Rivendell Ranch* love the *Appaloosa* though we work successfully 
with many other breeds. Our desire is to breed Appaloosas with the right 
temperment for the *Family*, *Amateur*, and *Non-pro* that have the 
conformation and athletic ability the *Professionals* will want to excel in 
endurance or up the levels at any sporthorse discipline. Our horses are 
very *friendly*, *willing*, and *learn quickly* in addition to being 
*competitive* in the show ring and out on trail." 

http://www.rivendellranch.com/

Who knew?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Joe Bernard]

So is it orange-ish or green-ish? I liked the earlier looks-more-orange 
pic, but *love* this looks-more-green/yellow one. Either way, I need this 
bike! 

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 7:23:20 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Let's make it happen!  You definitely wouldn't pay $2400 for a frameset in 
> a heartbeat.  You've got some price in mind.  Let's figure how to sell the 
> parts you can't afford to keep around and get you on one.  Somebody else 
> qualified their "in a heartbeat" with "if it was $700 like the Clem.  If 
> that's your price, then the barrier isn't Rivendell, the barrier is your 
> price.  If you're price is closer to $1600 or so, I bet we could do it.  
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 11:21:42 PM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>>
>> Really beautiful. I'd buy a frame in a heartbeat. Not holding my breathe 
>> for that option though. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Joe Bernard]

Appaloosas at Rivendell Ranch. That's amazing!

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 7:23:32 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Folks, I kid you not:
>
> "We at *Rivendell Ranch* love the *Appaloosa* though we work successfully 
> with many other breeds. Our desire is to breed Appaloosas with the right 
> temperment for the *Family*, *Amateur*, and *Non-pro* that have the 
> conformation and athletic ability the *Professionals* will want to excel 
> in endurance or up the levels at any sporthorse discipline. Our horses are 
> very *friendly*, *willing*, and *learn quickly* in addition to being 
> *competitive* in the show ring and out on trail." 
>
> http://www.rivendellranch.com/
>
> Who knew?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Let's make it happen!  You definitely wouldn't pay $2400 for a frameset in 
a heartbeat.  You've got some price in mind.  Let's figure how to sell the 
parts you can't afford to keep around and get you on one.  Somebody else 
qualified their "in a heartbeat" with "if it was $700 like the Clem.  If 
that's your price, then the barrier isn't Rivendell, the barrier is your 
price.  If you're price is closer to $1600 or so, I bet we could do it.  

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 11:21:42 PM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> Really beautiful. I'd buy a frame in a heartbeat. Not holding my breathe 
> for that option though. 

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[drew]

Haha. Bill you should be paid by rivendell and my wife should put a hit on 
you. i think if there was a frame presale around 1200 now, i would not be 
able to say no to that. later, if frames are being sold and i could 
save/strategize, i'd go to 1600$ no problem. right now, dropping 2400$ 
right before the holidays and then waiting months to strip the bike/sell 
off the parts/move over other parts/sell the sam hillborne etc there 
are just a few too many barriers to make it a worthwhile endeavor, when i 
dont need another bike. 

im just saying, if a frame option was out there, my impulse buying tendency 
would not resist. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[BSWP]

Thanks, the crown is looking very very nice. Still, a shame that F won't 
be available for this model, at least for a very long time.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 4:50:51 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Dark Mustard / Butterscotch, it's all good.  Now you can see the new crown 
> on full display on the BLUG.  With the windows painted in, you can't tell 
> that they filled in that one cutout.  
>
> And the pre-sale is back on...
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Dark Mustard / Butterscotch, it's all good.  Now you can see the new crown 
on full display on the BLUG.  With the windows painted in, you can't tell 
that they filled in that one cutout.  

And the pre-sale is back on

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 9:47:59 AM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> I love the color and couldn't be more excited. I expected blue so any 
> shade of butterscotch is a huge plus to me (I would be happy with blue 
> too!). Looks perfect to me.
>
> Chris
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kieran J]

Looks awesome! 

A full profile pic would have been nice. Maybe it's too long to fit into 
one photo?

KJ


On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 7:50:51 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Dark Mustard / Butterscotch, it's all good.  Now you can see the new crown 
> on full display on the BLUG.  With the windows painted in, you can't tell 
> that they filled in that one cutout.  
>
> And the pre-sale is back on
>
> On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 9:47:59 AM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:
>>
>> I love the color and couldn't be more excited. I expected blue so any 
>> shade of butterscotch is a huge plus to me (I would be happy with blue 
>> too!). Looks perfect to me.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[drew]

Really beautiful. I'd buy a frame in a heartbeat. Not holding my breathe for 
that option though. 

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[R Michaels]

Now I am really getting pumped.  All I can say is it's beautiful and the 
color is all that I could have hoped for.  The chain stays really stand out 
and the crown is a work of art.
R

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great bike. 
> The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and order one? 
> I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>
> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

The new pix on the blug of another proto-appaloosa are pretty
exciting. :)  I like the fork, and somehow I extra like the RBW on the
side of the fork crown.

I'm wondering if this is another 51, or if this one is a 55. If I were
able to actually read the tire size on the big bens to see if it's a
650b or 700c wheel, that would answer the question.

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/134881932154/dark-mustard-aka-butterscotch-sample-arrived

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 1:06 AM, William R.  wrote:
> Hi Andrew. Short answer is no. The only thing close to the final Joe Apploosa 
> that we will get in Feb/March is the 55cm Proto Appaloosa that was featured 
> in the Blug announcement. And that frames geo doesn't really correspond to 
> the final geo provided. If I were close enough to Riv HQ I think you could go 
> test a Cheviot for long chain stay feel and a Sam for size and they would 
> give you a pretty good idea.
>
> Bill in Westchester, NY
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[masmojo]

The "Butterscotch" sample in the Blug picture looks to be a dead ringer for the 
"orange" that my Clementine showed up wearing.
just a guess,  but maybe they worked the J App. Demo's into the paint line 
while they were painting Clems?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[William R.]

Hi Andrew. Short answer is no. The only thing close to the final Joe Apploosa 
that we will get in Feb/March is the 55cm Proto Appaloosa that was featured in 
the Blug announcement. And that frames geo doesn't really correspond to the 
final geo provided. If I were close enough to Riv HQ I think you could go test 
a Cheviot for long chain stay feel and a Sam for size and they would give you a 
pretty good idea.

Bill in Westchester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

I love the color and couldn't be more excited. I expected blue so any shade of 
butterscotch is a huge plus to me (I would be happy with blue too!). Looks 
perfect to me.

Chris

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[William R.]

I'm putting more stock in Rivs outdoor, natural light logshots. This looks like 
bad fluorescent factory lighting and bad camera-phone. I mean look at the head 
tube angle compared to the seat tube. On a frame where stated angles are 72 and 
71.5. Not a great photo. Don't worry, it's going to be great!

Bill in Westchester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[jtallman]

Three sets of water bottle mounts.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[BSWP]

Does anyone know, was a 62cm Joe frame built up, that could be taken for a 
test ride? That would be fun.
But I'm still wrapping my head around the decision to block frame & fork 
sales. Just don't get it...

- Andrew, Berkeley

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[jeffrey kane]

Chris -- fear not -- the lovely dudes at Riv often run dark with their 
digital files.

On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 3:08:00 PM UTC-5, R Michaels wrote:
>
> It's really nice to see that the head tube is painted cream but I am a 
> little disappointed that the butterscotch color looks quite different than 
> the sample that was given earlier.  I do like the lighter looking color 
> much better and am hoping that the lighting of the photo is the reason for 
> the difference.  After saying that, the color is the lesser part of the 
> reason I am getting my first Rivendell.  I'm really looking forward for the 
> delivery.
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>>
>> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great 
>> bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and 
>> order one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>>
>> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Chris
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[R Michaels]

It's really nice to see that the head tube is painted cream but I am a 
little disappointed that the butterscotch color looks quite different than 
the sample that was given earlier.  I do like the lighter looking color 
much better and am hoping that the lighting of the photo is the reason for 
the difference.  After saying that, the color is the lesser part of the 
reason I am getting my first Rivendell.  I'm really looking forward for the 
delivery.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great bike. 
> The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and order one? 
> I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>
> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[drew]

That photo and the knowledge that there will be another with that new fork 
crown is making me gnaw my fingers apart trying not to buy one. Goodness 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

...and now the Butterscotch Joe is visible on the BLUG.  Now it is 
confirmed that the headtube is cream.  WINNER.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 9:30:13 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Mercy. I'm crazy about the butterscotch Saluki, but I've never seen one in 
> my size up for sale. I need a butterscotch Joe (for Joe), now I just have 
> to find a way to pay for it. Oy!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

AFAIK there is a single set in existence on the proto-joe appaloosa at
rivbike HQ. (I suppose there are probably others.)

It's a new bar designed by riv and coming with the new Joe Appaloosa
(complete) bike. The name is revealed in a gif on the tumblr post.

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/132103060824
http://36.media.tumblr.com/25eef5014454c97ccb7b1be7f526f334/tumblr_nwy5tsXN3B1qe3ngpo2_500.png

I think there is an assumption that *after* the bikes go out, there
might be a way to buy the bar individually. But that may be a while...

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:54 AM, R Michaels  wrote:
> I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars
> you are referring to.  Where can I find them?
> R.
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>>
>> Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the
>> 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be comfy
>> with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in to the
>> center.
>>
>> Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the
>> chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just
>> curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to
>> center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.
>>
>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>>
>>> I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially
>>> a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch
>>> of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All
>>> uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting
>>> the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the
>>> grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant.
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745
>>>
>>> I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I
>>> wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at
>>> the shop. Duh.
>>>
>>> cheerios
>>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Joe Bernard]

Mercy. I'm crazy about the butterscotch Saluki, but I've never seen one in my 
size up for sale. I need a butterscotch Joe (for Joe), now I just have to find 
a way to pay for it. Oy!

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

Wow, Bill! That was very nice of you, and much appreciated.   If you want 
to try to send me a snapshot of the sketches through PM, that would be 
great.  I probably should have done this myself, and maybe still will - now 
that you've made me feel lazy and inadequate.   In the meantime,  I'll take 
some time and consider the implications of the numbers you came up 
with. 

Here's an elevation shot of my wife's 50cm Ram.   Included more for others 
who might be now or someday be following this conversation with the same 
questions and decision to make, than for you.  Saddle height = 67.33cm, 
using 170mm cranks.  She rides mostly on the top of the bars.  The PBH I 
have recorded for her is 75.5cm but, based on this saddle height which was 
set after lots of riding time and experimentation, it seems like it should 
be more like 78cm.  Not sure how I'd re-measure that without giving away a 
surprise.  Hmmm





On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 11:29:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Keith
>
> I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 
> Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the 
> center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white 
> paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover 
> height now.  
>
> With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 
> Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of 
> the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the 
> top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower.  
>
> If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the 
> top tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of 
> the TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the 
> middle of the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.
>
> The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The 
> insertion point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm 
> farther away, and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your 
> handlebars have a lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like 
> the choco-moose bars) then the rider will still be significantly more 
> upright on the bike than on the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run 
> drop bars on the 46 Appaloosa.  It's too low and too far away.  The bike is 
> ideal for swept back handlebars.  
>
> I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will 
> be about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, 
> if your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to 
> sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, 
> but it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will 
> have a full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said 
> bums you out.  
>
> Bill 
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 2:08:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
>> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  
>> But I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy 
>> your wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had 
>> thrown you for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four 
>> bikes all on top of each other on a big piece of paper.  
>>
>> 1.  Rambouillet
>> 2.  XO-1
>> 3.  46 Appa
>> 4.  51 Appa
>>
>> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor 
>> of the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great 
>> exercise for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to 
>> buy an Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let 
>> me know if you want help drawing your bikes.  
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that 
>>> the 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, 
>>> even though the seatpost would be extended a *lot* further than I 
>>> currently perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole 
>>> point of doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly 
>>> fatter tires, so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher 
>>> roads), and there would also be way more standover clearance than she 
>>> needs. Hopefully, the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than 
>>> the 50 Ram, so that her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on 
>>> the other hand, might not give her *enough* standover clearance.  Since 
>>> there are (intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know 
>>> for sure.  You guys who can 

Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, R Michaels wrote:
>
> I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars 
> you are referring to.  Where can I find them?
> R.
>
>>
>>>
As far as I know, the 'new' Joe Appaloosa prototype, and the 
photos circulating of it here and from Riv, are the only place you'll 
currently find it.   Unless I missed something, they even managed to keep 
this secret up until the Blug pre-sale announcement.   Many of us are 
hoping that they'll be available separately some day, but I doubt that will 
be before the complete bikes arrive.   Total speculation here, but I 
also assume that the separate ones will be fillet brazed with the Nitto 
dull-brite finish, while the complete ones will be tig welded  - much like 
the difference between the regular and Clem boscos.  I'm HOPING that there 
will be alternative widths, too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set up 
with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. Thinking 
back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was how the 
interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar style lever 
with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line cleanly. Which 
reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the fancy, can't remember 
the brand name but it was bought by a company in England, cable puller designed 
for triathlete aero bars. The one that two brake levers fed into one brake 
line. Most of you will remember exactly what I'm talking about so help me 
out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could be used to make a nice and tidy double 
braked wonderbar out of this choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[James Warren]

Do we know the crank lengths on the forthcoming Appaloosas? Is it possible 
they'll be slightly longer, and that's what's bringing the BB up a few 
millimeters - frame designed with longer cranks in mind?

-James


On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Keith
> 
> I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 
> Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the 
> center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white 
> paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover 
> height now.  
> 
> With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 
> Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of 
> the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the 
> top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower.  
> 
> If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the top 
> tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of the 
> TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the middle of 
> the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.
> 
> The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The insertion 
> point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm farther away, 
> and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your handlebars have a 
> lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like the choco-moose bars) 
> then the rider will still be significantly more upright on the bike than on 
> the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run drop bars on the 46 Appaloosa.  
> It's too low and too far away.  The bike is ideal for swept back handlebars.  
> 
> I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will be 
> about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, if 
> your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to 
> sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, but 
> it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will have a 
> full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said bums you 
> out.  
> 
> Bill 
> 
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 2:08:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  But 
> I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy your 
> wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had thrown you 
> for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four bikes all on 
> top of each other on a big piece of paper.  
> 
> 1.  Rambouillet
> 2.  XO-1
> 3.  46 Appa
> 4.  51 Appa
> 
> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor of 
> the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great exercise 
> for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to buy an 
> Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let me know 
> if you want help drawing your bikes.  
> 
> Bill
> 
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 46 
> might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even 
> though the seatpost would be extended a lot further than I currently perceive 
> as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of doing this 
> would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, so she can 
> carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and there would also 
> be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, the sloped top 
> tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that her stem could 
> even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might not give her 
> enough standover clearance.  Since there are (intentionally?) no standover 
> heights listed, its hard to know for sure.  You guys who can test-ride are 
> fortunate.
> 
> I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really 
> still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded sizing 
> system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, looking 
> incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for explanations 
> as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to understand 
> even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf since she 
> doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate what works and 
> what doesn't.  
> 
> I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would be, 
> based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the thought 
> that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I probably just 
> need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not 

Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

http://problemsolversbike.com/products/cable_doubler
There's a two to one and a one to two. This isn't the one I was looking at 
but that one was expensive and unavailable, this one's probably cheap and 
available. Problem solved...
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set 
> up with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. 
> Thinking back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was 
> how the interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar 
> style lever with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line 
> cleanly. Which reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the 
> fancy, can't remember the brand name but it was bought by a company in 
> England, cable puller designed for triathlete aero bars. The one that two 
> brake levers fed into one brake line. Most of you will remember exactly 
> what I'm talking about so help me out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could 
> be used to make a nice and tidy double braked wonderbar out of this 
> choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[jeffrey kane]

Personally, I wish the Albastache bars had been made available with a mtb 
lever compatibility option (like an Albatross). I've long wished the Alba's 
had less rise. The shapes are similar ... but a 'stache that takes an mtb 
lever would provide an option with half the rise (or drop if you chose to 
flip it). That's kind of what the Choco-whatever looks like ... and kind of 
what the VO Porteur looks like (they're all within a few mm's either way). 
But the VO's don't take mtb levers and bar-ends and the Albatross's are a 
5mm rise ... So that Choco-thing looks better and better all the time -- 
but I don't recall anyone specifically confirming that it will take a 
bar-end shifter pod, yet.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set 
> up with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. 
> Thinking back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was 
> how the interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar 
> style lever with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line 
> cleanly. Which reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the 
> fancy, can't remember the brand name but it was bought by a company in 
> England, cable puller designed for triathlete aero bars. The one that two 
> brake levers fed into one brake line. Most of you will remember exactly 
> what I'm talking about so help me out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could 
> be used to make a nice and tidy double braked wonderbar out of this 
> choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[EGNolan]

You COULD use the bar-end "aero" brake levers like this: 
http://www.jensonusa.com/!1S-OnkIcQoZUhqOqYmFDTw!/Tektro-RX-41-Reverse-Brake-Levers?utm_source=FRGL_medium=organic=Cj0KEQiAj8uyBRDawI3XhYqOy4gBEiQAl8BJbWK15LEHPFsxh4qEak1Upkb3EOetXzHeyCVProE1jAIaAj9v8P8HAQ
 but 
they ain't mountain levers.

Best,
Eric
Indpls

>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Inverse levers should work.  VO currently has Tektro modern-looking ones:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/tektro-rx4-1-silver-inverse-brake-levers.html
  They also have more vintage looking Dia-Compe versions, here:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/dia-compe-inverse-brake-levers-22-2.html

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gavin
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:47 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would the 
cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.  
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to leave 
the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip area.  
Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu 
<kaiviers...@gmail.com<mailto:kaiviers...@gmail.com>> wrote:
About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY
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RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

The Tektros come only in 23.8 diameter.  The Dia-Compes come in both 23.8 and 
22.2 (trad MTB).  But the Dia-Compes won't pull enough cable for V-brakes (if 
that's what you're contemplating on your Joe App).  Paul used to make an 
inverse lever that would pull enough for V-brakes, which you might find 
somewhere, but my recollection is that they were 23.8mm.

So maybe the inverse levers wouldn't work.

From: Allingham II, Thomas J (WIL)
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:40 AM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Inverse levers should work.  VO currently has Tektro modern-looking ones:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/tektro-rx4-1-silver-inverse-brake-levers.html
  They also have more vintage looking Dia-Compe versions, here:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/dia-compe-inverse-brake-levers-22-2.html


From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gavin
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:47 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would the 
cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.  
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to leave 
the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip area.  
Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu 
<kaiviers...@gmail.com<mailto:kaiviers...@gmail.com>> wrote:
About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[R Michaels]

I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars 
you are referring to.  Where can I find them?
R.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 
> 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be 
> comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in 
> to the center. 
>
> Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the 
> chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just 
> curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to 
> center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>
>> I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially 
>> a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch 
>> of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All 
>> uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting 
>> the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the 
>> grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant. 
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745 
>>
>> I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I 
>> wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at 
>> the shop. Duh. 
>>
>> cheerios 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Tim Gavin]

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would
the cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to
leave the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip
area.  Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu  wrote:

> About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an
> "aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes
> under the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think
> the albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better
> (especially since they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the
> albastache I'm left wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain
> levers on the back end of the sweep and also have that forward mounted
> lever like everyone seems to love on theirs. It just seems that the brake
> cables would be problematic between the two levers, in the sense that
> they'd be in the way of otherwise comfy fingers.
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[BSWP]

Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 
'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be 
comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in 
to the center. 

Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the 
chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just 
curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to 
center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>
> I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially 
> a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch 
> of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All 
> uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting 
> the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the 
> grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant. 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745 
>
> I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I 
> wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at 
> the shop. Duh. 
>
> cheerios 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Andrew

There is a geo chart on the BLUG.  Is your Quickbeam a 62?  If so, you'll 
probably want to look at the 58 Appaloosa.  If your Quickbeam is a 66, then 
the 62 Appaloosa is probably your thing.  If your QB is in-between (64?) 
then you might beum...in-between.  At any rate, both will have 
tremendously long chainstays.  The 58 will have 53cm chainstays.  The 62 
will have 53.5cm chainstays.   

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 
> 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be 
> comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in 
> to the center. 
>
> Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the 
> chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just 
> curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to 
> center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>
>> I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially 
>> a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch 
>> of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All 
>> uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting 
>> the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the 
>> grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant. 
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745 
>>
>> I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I 
>> wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at 
>> the shop. Duh. 
>>
>> cheerios 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[William R.]

Thanks for posting these pics Patrick. This is the best look at the Choco Moose 
bar yet. It looks like Grant put a lot of thought into providing a really 
comfortable pocket grip area forward of the levers. I will echo the sentiment 
that I am looking more and more forward to getting my hands on this bar and the 
whole bike! In the mean time I'm getting ready to head out on any early morning 
ride on my Soma GR which I am using as a test bed for tires for the Joe 
Appaloosa. As much as I can at least. Last night I swapped out the Switchback 
Hills for 50mm wide  Schwalbe Big Bens. Trying to decide if Marathon Almotions 
that come 55mm width will be candidates for the Joe. 

Bill in drizzly but clearing Westchester, NY

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

Keith

I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 
Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the 
center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white 
paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover 
height now.  

With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 
Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of 
the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the 
top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower.  

If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the 
top tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of 
the TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the 
middle of the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.

The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The insertion 
point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm farther away, 
and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your handlebars have a 
lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like the choco-moose 
bars) then the rider will still be significantly more upright on the bike 
than on the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run drop bars on the 46 
Appaloosa.  It's too low and too far away.  The bike is ideal for swept 
back handlebars.  

I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will 
be about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, 
if your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to 
sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, 
but it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will 
have a full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said 
bums you out.  

Bill 

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 2:08:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  
> But I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy 
> your wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had 
> thrown you for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four 
> bikes all on top of each other on a big piece of paper.  
>
> 1.  Rambouillet
> 2.  XO-1
> 3.  46 Appa
> 4.  51 Appa
>
> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor 
> of the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great 
> exercise for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to 
> buy an Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let 
> me know if you want help drawing your bikes.  
>
> Bill
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 
>> 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even 
>> though the seatpost would be extended a *lot* further than I currently 
>> perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of 
>> doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, 
>> so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and 
>> there would also be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, 
>> the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that 
>> her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might 
>> not give her *enough* standover clearance.  Since there are 
>> (intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know for sure. 
>>  You guys who can test-ride are fortunate.
>>
>> I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really 
>> still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded 
>> sizing system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, 
>> looking incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for 
>> explanations as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to 
>> understand even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf 
>> since she doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate 
>> what works and what doesn't.  
>>
>> I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would 
>> be, based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the 
>> thought that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I 
>> probably just need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unlike my old 
>> WTB phoenix which, numerically, is 3" or more smaller than would fit me on 
>> any other bike of the era but actually works great, maybe the way to 
>> properly size a Rivendell nowadays is NOT to get the biggest frame you can 
>> straddle.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 10:42:49 AM 

[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[David Person]

Well, now I know where Riv got the idea for the two colors to be offered.

David P.



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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, so since your small roadish 559 wheeled Rambouillet has 55mm of drop, 
then all other Rivendells with 559 wheels throw you for a loop, because all 
of those bikes take wider tires and all of them have 55-57mm of drop?  I'm 
with Grant that fit is about how your body fits in relation to the bike 
when you are riding.  BB drop effects how my body fits in relation to the 
bike.  BB drop is about fit.  Tire size changes standover, to be sure, but 
tire size does not affect fit, in my opinion.  BB height is about 
clearances: your pedals striking the ground, and your crotch to the top 
tube.  These are clearance issues, not fit issues, in my opinion.  

I know about the "on the bike" vs "in the bike" feel.  That handling feel 
is about how the rider's body is positioned relative to the bike while 
riding, in my opinion.  It is not about how your center of mass is 
positioned above the ground, in my opinion.  Jan Heine and Grant are the 
two who folks on this group tend to respect the most.  Jan thinks BB height 
and BB drop don't matter at all.  Grant thinks BB drop should be as low as 
practically possible for the minimum tire width, and that you shouldn't get 
too hung up about standover.  

More directly to the point.  Have you ever seen a 559-wheeled frame with 
more that 57mm of drop?  The Surly Long Haul Trucker 26", a dedicated 
touring bike, has only 47mm of drop.  Maybe Alex Wetmore's Travel Gifford 
with 26" wheels might have more drop, and the category that has inspired: 
the All-Road Enduro, may evolve with 65-70mm of drop and will only work 
with Rat Trap Pass tires.  But I don't know of anything off the shelf that 
will do that for you.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[jeffrey kane]

Patrick, nice work on the HB pics -- now I really can't wait to get my hands on 
one. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially
a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch
of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All
uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting
the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the
grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745

I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I
wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at
the shop. Duh.

cheerios

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with
> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  But
> I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy your
> wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had thrown you
> for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four bikes all
> on top of each other on a big piece of paper.
>
> 1.  Rambouillet
> 2.  XO-1
> 3.  46 Appa
> 4.  51 Appa
>
> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor of
> the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great exercise
> for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to buy an
> Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let me know
> if you want help drawing your bikes.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the
>> 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even
>> though the seatpost would be extended a lot further than I currently
>> perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of
>> doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires,
>> so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and there
>> would also be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, the
>> sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that her
>> stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might not
>> give her enough standover clearance.  Since there are (intentionally?) no
>> standover heights listed, its hard to know for sure.  You guys who can
>> test-ride are fortunate.
>>
>> I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really
>> still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded
>> sizing system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case,
>> looking incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for
>> explanations as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to
>> understand even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf
>> since she doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate
>> what works and what doesn't.
>>
>> I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would
>> be, based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the
>> thought that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I
>> probably just need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unlike my old WTB
>> phoenix which, numerically, is 3" or more smaller than would fit me on any
>> other bike of the era but actually works great, maybe the way to properly
>> size a Rivendell nowadays is NOT to get the biggest frame you can straddle.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 10:42:49 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, so since your small roadish 559 wheeled Rambouillet has 55mm of drop,
>>> then all other Rivendells with 559 wheels throw you for a loop, because all
>>> of those bikes take wider tires and all of them have 55-57mm of drop?  I'm
>>> with Grant that fit is about how your body fits in relation to the bike when
>>> you are riding.  BB drop effects how my body fits in relation to the bike.
>>> BB drop is about fit.  Tire size changes standover, to be sure, but tire
>>> size does not affect fit, in my opinion.  BB height is about clearances:
>>> your pedals striking the ground, and your crotch to the top tube.  These are
>>> clearance issues, not fit issues, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> I know about the "on the bike" vs "in the bike" feel.  That handling feel
>>> is about how the rider's body is positioned relative to the bike while
>>> riding, in my opinion.  It is not about how your center of mass is
>>> positioned above the ground, in my opinion.  Jan Heine and Grant are the two
>>> who folks on this group tend to respect the most.  Jan thinks BB height and
>>> BB drop don't matter at all.  Grant thinks BB drop should be as low as
>>> practically possible for the minimum tire width, and that you shouldn't get
>>> too hung up about standover.
>>>
>>> More directly to the 

[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  
But I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy 
your wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had 
thrown you for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four 
bikes all on top of each other on a big piece of paper.  

1.  Rambouillet
2.  XO-1
3.  46 Appa
4.  51 Appa

Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor of 
the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great exercise 
for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to buy an 
Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let me 
know if you want help drawing your bikes.  

Bill

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 
> 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even 
> though the seatpost would be extended a *lot* further than I currently 
> perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of 
> doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, 
> so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and 
> there would also be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, 
> the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that 
> her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might 
> not give her *enough* standover clearance.  Since there are 
> (intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know for sure. 
>  You guys who can test-ride are fortunate.
>
> I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really 
> still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded 
> sizing system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, 
> looking incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for 
> explanations as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to 
> understand even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf 
> since she doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate 
> what works and what doesn't.  
>
> I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would 
> be, based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the 
> thought that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I 
> probably just need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unlike my old 
> WTB phoenix which, numerically, is 3" or more smaller than would fit me on 
> any other bike of the era but actually works great, maybe the way to 
> properly size a Rivendell nowadays is NOT to get the biggest frame you can 
> straddle.
>
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 10:42:49 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> OK, so since your small roadish 559 wheeled Rambouillet has 55mm of drop, 
>> then all other Rivendells with 559 wheels throw you for a loop, because all 
>> of those bikes take wider tires and all of them have 55-57mm of drop?  I'm 
>> with Grant that fit is about how your body fits in relation to the bike 
>> when you are riding.  BB drop effects how my body fits in relation to the 
>> bike.  BB drop is about fit.  Tire size changes standover, to be sure, but 
>> tire size does not affect fit, in my opinion.  BB height is about 
>> clearances: your pedals striking the ground, and your crotch to the top 
>> tube.  These are clearance issues, not fit issues, in my opinion.  
>>
>> I know about the "on the bike" vs "in the bike" feel.  That handling feel 
>> is about how the rider's body is positioned relative to the bike while 
>> riding, in my opinion.  It is not about how your center of mass is 
>> positioned above the ground, in my opinion.  Jan Heine and Grant are the 
>> two who folks on this group tend to respect the most.  Jan thinks BB height 
>> and BB drop don't matter at all.  Grant thinks BB drop should be as low as 
>> practically possible for the minimum tire width, and that you shouldn't get 
>> too hung up about standover.  
>>
>> More directly to the point.  Have you ever seen a 559-wheeled frame with 
>> more that 57mm of drop?  The Surly Long Haul Trucker 26", a dedicated 
>> touring bike, has only 47mm of drop.  Maybe Alex Wetmore's Travel Gifford 
>> with 26" wheels might have more drop, and the category that has inspired: 
>> the All-Road Enduro, may evolve with 65-70mm of drop and will only work 
>> with Rat Trap Pass tires.  But I don't know of anything off the shelf that 
>> will do that for you.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 
46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even 
though the seatpost would be extended a *lot* further than I currently 
perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of 
doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, 
so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and 
there would also be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, 
the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that 
her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might 
not give her *enough* standover clearance.  Since there are 
(intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know for sure. 
 You guys who can test-ride are fortunate.

I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really 
still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded 
sizing system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, 
looking incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for 
explanations as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to 
understand even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf 
since she doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate 
what works and what doesn't.  

I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would 
be, based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the 
thought that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I 
probably just need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unlike my old 
WTB phoenix which, numerically, is 3" or more smaller than would fit me on 
any other bike of the era but actually works great, maybe the way to 
properly size a Rivendell nowadays is NOT to get the biggest frame you can 
straddle.


On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 10:42:49 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> OK, so since your small roadish 559 wheeled Rambouillet has 55mm of drop, 
> then all other Rivendells with 559 wheels throw you for a loop, because all 
> of those bikes take wider tires and all of them have 55-57mm of drop?  I'm 
> with Grant that fit is about how your body fits in relation to the bike 
> when you are riding.  BB drop effects how my body fits in relation to the 
> bike.  BB drop is about fit.  Tire size changes standover, to be sure, but 
> tire size does not affect fit, in my opinion.  BB height is about 
> clearances: your pedals striking the ground, and your crotch to the top 
> tube.  These are clearance issues, not fit issues, in my opinion.  
>
> I know about the "on the bike" vs "in the bike" feel.  That handling feel 
> is about how the rider's body is positioned relative to the bike while 
> riding, in my opinion.  It is not about how your center of mass is 
> positioned above the ground, in my opinion.  Jan Heine and Grant are the 
> two who folks on this group tend to respect the most.  Jan thinks BB height 
> and BB drop don't matter at all.  Grant thinks BB drop should be as low as 
> practically possible for the minimum tire width, and that you shouldn't get 
> too hung up about standover.  
>
> More directly to the point.  Have you ever seen a 559-wheeled frame with 
> more that 57mm of drop?  The Surly Long Haul Trucker 26", a dedicated 
> touring bike, has only 47mm of drop.  Maybe Alex Wetmore's Travel Gifford 
> with 26" wheels might have more drop, and the category that has inspired: 
> the All-Road Enduro, may evolve with 65-70mm of drop and will only work 
> with Rat Trap Pass tires.  But I don't know of anything off the shelf that 
> will do that for you.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

A 51 Appaloosa with 1.75" tires sounds like a possible solution.  Even 
though you are the kind of guy who puts on the biggest tires possible, I 
assume with a current 50cm frame, your wife may be somewhat smaller than 
you, and can do with proportionally less tire volume to achieve similar 
results. So gaining a half inch in tire width over the current Ram could be 
plenty. Room left for fenders, & maybe a spare set of wheels with bigger 
rubber. 

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 11:27:12 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:

 

> My wife's rambouillet is a 50.  She thinks it fits fine but, if I could do 
> it again, I'd put her on a 52.  (Her stem is extended really high, she has 
> more than a fistfull of seatpost, and has at least an inch and a half of 
> standover clearance.Judging from standover alone, I'm working from the 
> goal of putting  her on the biggest frame possible.  Even with 2 1/4" 
> tires, the 46 Appaloosa would probably still feel smaller than the 50 
> rambouillet with 1 1/4" tires, right?   The 51 Appaloosa would probably fit 
> just perfect with 1 1/4" tires, but could be too big with 2 1/4" tires. 
>
> Basically, it's just hard to decide because there's no apples-to-apples 
> comparison to what she already has.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Steve Palincsar]

But if you had done, she'd have only a half inch of standover clearance 
and would have 1 cm longer of a top tube.   For some, that simply 
wouldn't work.


On 11/20/2015 11:27 PM, iamkeith wrote:


My wife's rambouillet is a 50.  She thinks it fits fine but, if I 
could do it again, I'd put her on a 52.  (Her stem is extended really 
high, she has more than a fistfull of seatpost, and has at least an 
inch and a half of standover clearance.  Judging from standover alone, 
I'm working from the goal of putting  her on the biggest frame 
possible.  Even with 2 1/4" tires, the 46 Appaloosa would probably 
still feel smaller than the 50 rambouillet with 1 1/4" tires, right?   
The 51 Appaloosa would probably fit just perfect with 1 1/4" tires, 
but could be too big with 2 1/4" tires.




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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Philip Kim]

when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is nice, 
but even the sky blue is a nice color.

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[William R.]

Oh yes, very happy to see that butterscotch! That will be my choice! And to all 
of you out there thinking about it, give in to Rivs eternal scales of decision 
where on one hand there are needs and on the other reside wants!

Bill in Westchester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[David Johnston]

the 4" of the butterscotch doesn't look very good in the picture. Does
it look better in person or as a whole bike? anybody have an example
picture? I would prefer that Proto silver myself.

-Dave

On 11/20/15, Philip Kim  wrote:
> when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is nice,
> but even the sky blue is a nice color.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

Here are a couple of examples in the cyclofiend gallery.  Or just do a 
google search for "butterscotch saluki":

http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc265-frankfulton0307.html
http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2009/cc681-johnferguson0909.html

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 8:54:21 AM UTC-7, Dave Johnston wrote:
>
> the 4" of the butterscotch doesn't look very good in the picture. Does 
> it look better in person or as a whole bike? anybody have an example 
> picture? I would prefer that Proto silver myself. 
>
> -Dave 
>
> On 11/20/15, Philip Kim  wrote: 
> > when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is 
> nice, 
> > but even the sky blue is a nice color. 
> > 
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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

I probably just need to join the chorus of voices begging for a 
frameset-only (and handlebar!)  option.   Even if i can't justify buying a 
redundant bike, I could sure rationalize buying a dream frame to have on 
hand as a spare for if-and-when one of my other bikes finally gives up the 
ghost.  

I kind of wish this project wouldn't have happened quite as soon as it did. 
  There's still a good chance that my Clem isn't going to fit well enough, 
and this would have been a good backup plan substitute for that one. 
 There's just no way to know, until summer comes or unless I travel to some 
other climate. 

MEANWHILE, I suppose a butterscotch appaloosa could make a good christmas 
and birthday present for my wife. Who better to tour with?!.  She has a 
beat-up XO-1, but my daughter has sort of adopted it.  Has anybody here 
been between the 46 and 51 sizes, and decided to order one or the other? 
 If so, what factors influenced your decision?  The specified bb drop still 
throws me for a loop, when comparing it to known entities.   


On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 4:03:14 AM UTC-7, William R. wrote:
>
> Oh yes, very happy to see that butterscotch! That will be my choice! And 
> to all of you out there thinking about it, give in to Rivs eternal scales 
> of decision where on one hand there are needs and on the other reside wants!
>
> Bill in Westchester, NY
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

"The specified bb drop still throws me for a loop, when comparing it to 
known entities."

Can you elaborate how the BB drop of the Appaloosa throws you for a loop?  

A 559 wheeled Appaloosa has 55mm of drop, vs 57mm for a Clem and 55 for a 
559 Hunqapillar  
A 584 wheeled Appaloosa has 68.9mm of drop, vs 67 for a 584 wheeled Hilsen 
or 67 for a Clem
A 622 wheeled Appaloosa has 78mm of drop vs 80mm or a 622 Atlantis or Hunqa 
or Hilsen

Which of those 0-2mm differences have thrown you for a loop and why?  On a 
bike that I could run 38mm tires or 50mm tires, I think 2mm amounts to 
absolutely nothing.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA



On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 8:31:08 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I probably just need to join the chorus of voices begging for a 
> frameset-only (and handlebar!)  option.   Even if i can't justify buying a 
> redundant bike, I could sure rationalize buying a dream frame to have on 
> hand as a spare for if-and-when one of my other bikes finally gives up the 
> ghost.  
>
> I kind of wish this project wouldn't have happened quite as soon as it 
> did.   There's still a good chance that my Clem isn't going to fit well 
> enough, and this would have been a good backup plan substitute for that 
> one.  There's just no way to know, until summer comes or unless I travel to 
> some other climate. 
>
> MEANWHILE, I suppose a butterscotch appaloosa could make a good christmas 
> and birthday present for my wife. Who better to tour with?!.  She has a 
> beat-up XO-1, but my daughter has sort of adopted it.  Has anybody here 
> been between the 46 and 51 sizes, and decided to order one or the other? 
>  If so, what factors influenced your decision?  The specified bb drop still 
> throws me for a loop, when comparing it to known entities.   
>
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 4:03:14 AM UTC-7, William R. wrote:
>>
>> Oh yes, very happy to see that butterscotch! That will be my choice! And 
>> to all of you out there thinking about it, give in to Rivs eternal scales 
>> of decision where on one hand there are needs and on the other reside wants!
>>
>> Bill in Westchester, NY
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Always hard to judge this stuff on a computer monitor, but the butterscotch 
Salukis look a lot more orange than the sample on the blug at the moment 
(which I prefer. But I am out of the market after the Clementine arrives. 
Because less is more. Less is more.) 

As far as buying just frames, it looks like the company is going in the 
opposite direction, with Sams available as completes only in spring, and 
possibly the same for Cheviots in Dec. '16.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 11:03:24 AM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Here are a couple of examples in the cyclofiend gallery.  Or just do a 
> google search for "butterscotch saluki":
>
> http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc265-frankfulton0307.html
> http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2009/cc681-johnferguson0909.html
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 8:54:21 AM UTC-7, Dave Johnston wrote:
>>
>> the 4" of the butterscotch doesn't look very good in the picture. Does 
>> it look better in person or as a whole bike? anybody have an example 
>> picture? I would prefer that Proto silver myself. 
>>
>> -Dave 
>>
>> On 11/20/15, Philip Kim  wrote: 
>> > when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is 
>> nice, 
>> > but even the sky blue is a nice color. 
>> > 
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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[R Michaels]

Wouldn't it be nice if the butterscotch came with the cream color head 
tube.  Now that's a nice look.  Have to wait and see.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great bike. 
> The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and order one? 
> I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>
> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

It does say cream details but I wonder is that is the head tube or just the 
fork?

Chris

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

You're probably right that I'm making mountains out of millimeters.   I 
guess what I'm having trouble with is wrapping my mind around how the bike 
is intended to be best utilized, working from the BB drop as a cue.  Bear 
in mind that I'm the guy who will *always* use the biggest tire a bike can 
fit.  The comparisons you list pretty much make sense because it follows 
that, all other things being equal,  a bike with a slightly taller tire 
should require a slightly lower bottom bracket.   Since those other models 
are more mountain/rough-stuff bike than road bike, this would suggest that 
the Appaloosa would work well the same way, and would have a comparable fit 
and ride quality for a given size.   In the case of my wife though, the 
"known entity" is actually a much more road-oriented 559 Rambouillet, which 
happens to have the same 55mm drop as the Appaloosa... but is intended to 
be used with a tire that is a full inch smaller!  So compared to that bike, 
using the biggest tire is going to effectively raise the bottom bracket by 
quite a bit, affect the standover clearance without affecting the actual 
fit, and maybe even have a different ride quality due to a higher center of 
gravity.  So coming from the road side kind of gives a different result - 
or at least a different frame of reference - than coming from the mountain 
side.   

My wife's rambouillet is a 50.  She thinks it fits fine but, if I could do 
it again, I'd put her on a 52.  (Her stem is extended really high, she has 
more than a fistfull of seatpost, and has at least an inch and a half of 
standover clearance.Judging from standover alone, I'm working from the 
goal of putting  her on the biggest frame possible.  Even with 2 1/4" 
tires, the 46 Appaloosa would probably still feel smaller than the 50 
rambouillet with 1 1/4" tires, right?   The 51 Appaloosa would probably fit 
just perfect with 1 1/4" tires, but could be too big with 2 1/4" tires. 

Basically, it's just hard to decide because there's no apples-to-apples 
comparison to what she already has.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 4:03:43 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> "The specified bb drop still throws me for a loop, when comparing it to 
> known entities."
>
> Can you elaborate how the BB drop of the Appaloosa throws you for a loop?  
>
> A 559 wheeled Appaloosa has 55mm of drop, vs 57mm for a Clem and 55 for a 
> 559 Hunqapillar  
> A 584 wheeled Appaloosa has 68.9mm of drop, vs 67 for a 584 wheeled Hilsen 
> or 67 for a Clem
> A 622 wheeled Appaloosa has 78mm of drop vs 80mm or a 622 Atlantis or 
> Hunqa or Hilsen
>
> Which of those 0-2mm differences have thrown you for a loop and why?  On a 
> bike that I could run 38mm tires or 50mm tires, I think 2mm amounts to 
> absolutely nothing.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 8:31:08 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>> I probably just need to join the chorus of voices begging for a 
>> frameset-only (and handlebar!)  option.   Even if i can't justify buying a 
>> redundant bike, I could sure rationalize buying a dream frame to have on 
>> hand as a spare for if-and-when one of my other bikes finally gives up the 
>> ghost.  
>>
>> I kind of wish this project wouldn't have happened quite as soon as it 
>> did.   There's still a good chance that my Clem isn't going to fit well 
>> enough, and this would have been a good backup plan substitute for that 
>> one.  There's just no way to know, until summer comes or unless I travel to 
>> some other climate. 
>>
>> MEANWHILE, I suppose a butterscotch appaloosa could make a good christmas 
>> and birthday present for my wife. Who better to tour with?!.  She has a 
>> beat-up XO-1, but my daughter has sort of adopted it.  Has anybody here 
>> been between the 46 and 51 sizes, and decided to order one or the other? 
>>  If so, what factors influenced your decision?  The specified bb drop still 
>> throws me for a loop, when comparing it to known entities.   
>>
>>
>> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 4:03:14 AM UTC-7, William R. wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh yes, very happy to see that butterscotch! That will be my choice! And 
>>> to all of you out there thinking about it, give in to Rivs eternal scales 
>>> of decision where on one hand there are needs and on the other reside wants!
>>>
>>> Bill in Westchester, NY
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The prototype silver has a cream head tube, so I would hazard a guess. 

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 9:56:06 PM UTC-5, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> It does say cream details but I wonder is that is the head tube or just 
> the fork?
>
> Chris
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

I like both colors but if I get to choose I don't think it is much of a choice. 
Butterscotch Rivs are amazing!

Super excited,
Chris

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

Oh great.  I was able to ignore this when they were just going to be 
blue... but butterscotch is a different story altogether.  My all-time 
favorite Rivendell color.   Quick - talk some sense into my head!  I mean, 
there's no possible way I could rationalize the redundancy of this, on top 
of:
>
>
1.  A 26"  All-Rounder with moustache bars & super-fat compass road tires, 
used as a daily rider, but with a set of racks for extended touring
2.  A 700c Rambouillet with noodle drops and jack browns, for quicker road 
rides, long randonneur-type rides and credit card tours.
3.  A new Clem Smith with long chainstays and super-fat knobby tires, for 
(presumably) town crawling and off-road touring 
4.  An old hakkaluggi cyclocross bike with knobby tires, for faster 
off-road rides.

I've got every possible base covered, right?  I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   
I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   
I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa   

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Lungimsam]

The canti-bility makes it interesting to me as I will only buy a cantibrake 
bike for me next bike if I have a say about it.

But the first pic I saw makes the st look short. Are these intended to be 
shortie seat tube bikes or is it just the pic making it look that way?

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yeah, but are any of those other ones butterscotch? That is a seriously 
really really nice color for an Appaloosa. I've used the color category 
once or twice to justify an n + 1. Just sayin'.

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:47:32 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Oh great.  I was able to ignore this when they were just going to be 
> blue... but butterscotch is a different story altogether.  My all-time 
> favorite Rivendell color.   Quick - talk some sense into my head!  I mean, 
> there's no possible way I could rationalize the redundancy of this, on top 
> of:
>>
>>
> 1.  A 26"  All-Rounder with moustache bars & super-fat compass road tires, 
> used as a daily rider, but with a set of racks for extended touring
> 2.  A 700c Rambouillet with noodle drops and jack browns, for quicker road 
> rides, long randonneur-type rides and credit card tours.
> 3.  A new Clem Smith with long chainstays and super-fat knobby tires, for 
> (presumably) town crawling and off-road touring 
> 4.  An old hakkaluggi cyclocross bike with knobby tires, for faster 
> off-road rides.
>
> I've got every possible base covered, right?  I do NOT need an Appaloosa. 
>   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   
> I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa   
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Bill Lindsay]

I might actually literally faint.  A butterscotch Rivendell is a bucket 
list item for me.  I already ordered a Joe and was resigned to it being a 
nice blue.  Now the thought that I can choose my Joe to be 
butterscotch*just...give 
me a moment..*

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 7:47:32 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Oh great.  I was able to ignore this when they were just going to be 
> blue... but butterscotch is a different story altogether.  My all-time 
> favorite Rivendell color.   Quick - talk some sense into my head!  I mean, 
> there's no possible way I could rationalize the redundancy of this, on top 
> of:
>>
>>
> 1.  A 26"  All-Rounder with moustache bars & super-fat compass road tires, 
> used as a daily rider, but with a set of racks for extended touring
> 2.  A 700c Rambouillet with noodle drops and jack browns, for quicker road 
> rides, long randonneur-type rides and credit card tours.
> 3.  A new Clem Smith with long chainstays and super-fat knobby tires, for 
> (presumably) town crawling and off-road touring 
> 4.  An old hakkaluggi cyclocross bike with knobby tires, for faster 
> off-road rides.
>
> I've got every possible base covered, right?  I do NOT need an Appaloosa. 
>   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   
> I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa   
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Lynne Cooney]

I was chanting a similar "I do not need a Twenty" the other day. Also "I do 
not need an Appaloosa" and "I do not need an Atlantis."

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 7:47:32 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Oh great.  I was able to ignore this when they were just going to be 
> blue... but butterscotch is a different story altogether.  My all-time 
> favorite Rivendell color.   Quick - talk some sense into my head!  I mean, 
> there's no possible way I could rationalize the redundancy of this, on top 
> of:
>>
>>
> 1.  A 26"  All-Rounder with moustache bars & super-fat compass road tires, 
> used as a daily rider, but with a set of racks for extended touring
> 2.  A 700c Rambouillet with noodle drops and jack browns, for quicker road 
> rides, long randonneur-type rides and credit card tours.
> 3.  A new Clem Smith with long chainstays and super-fat knobby tires, for 
> (presumably) town crawling and off-road touring 
> 4.  An old hakkaluggi cyclocross bike with knobby tires, for faster 
> off-road rides.
>
> I've got every possible base covered, right?  I do NOT need an Appaloosa. 
>   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   
> I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need 
> an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa   
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Daniel D.]

Hmmm just my size, might have to drop by. Maybe a little ride will change 
my mind.

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 6:25:45 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>
> I made it to riv HQ yesterday, and I did see the prototype. It's a 52. 
>
> I was there to double check my size. I got a new PBH measurement of 86 
> instead of 87. I suspect I rounded up last time. I stood over a size 
> 58 hillborne, and while it's theoretically possible for me, I'm 
> convinced it's too big for me. My original order of a 55 was correct. 
>
> The most entertaining part of the day was chatting with Grant about 
> the prototype. Apparently he was thinking it was a size 55 because 
> somebody else (don't remember who) that would normally ride a size 55 
> (same as Grant) had been riding it around a lot. Grant had been 
> puzzled because he felt that when he rode it, it was too small. After 
> measuring it and checking the actual size (to answer my "that's a size 
> 52, right?" question), it all came clear to him that it was in fact 
> too small for him, because it's actually a size 52, and not a 55. 
>
> I rode an atlantis, the 1x9 hunqapillar, a clem and a large cheviot 
> (the medium was over at BBH). I spent most of my ride time on the 55 
> sam hillborne with albatross bars. I'm not one to notice subtleties of 
> bicycle behavior, so I cannot really say anything about any of them vs 
> the others. They all ride like bikes to me. :)  I can confirm that I 
> still don't like drop bars (mostly because of the brakes) and that I 
> was less excited about the bullmoose bar than I thought I would be. 
> Riding with the albatross bars, I'm thinking that I may actually be 
> very happy with the new bar on the joe appaloosa. If not, I'll 
> probably figure out how to put my jones h-bar on it, instead. 
>
> I was hoping to get more/better photos of the new bar, but Grant took 
> it out for a long ride. The shape of the new bar is a bit more 
> complicated than is obvious in the photos posted so far, and yes, it 
> has a slight drop. It looks really good to me. I was hoping to take it 
> for a short ride, even though it's the wrong size, just to check out 
> the bars, but that didn't happen. 
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, David Banzer  > wrote: 
> > I thought the bar looked like it had a little forward bend, and a slight 
> > drop. Does that seem right? Makes me think it was part of Grant's 
> > experimentation with a flipped Albatross bar over the summer, as seen in 
> > this Blug post: 
> > 
> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/125363801684/fun-wfriction-and-scroll-down-one-post-for-the
>  
> > David 
> > Chicago 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 12:03:27 PM UTC-6, ted wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Sorry for the slow response, but I was out riding most of the day Sat. 
> and 
> >> recovering the rest of it. I did make it up to RBW WHQ friday, but I 
> didn't 
> >> ride the Joe so not much to report. It looked very nice and quite Sam H 
> like 
> >> to me, except for the canti-post brakes. Of course it doesn't have the 
> new 
> >> fork crown, and I think the stays on the production frames will be 
> longer 
> >> so... The bars seem very cool. They bend foreword a bit before sweeping 
> back 
> >> which I had not picked up from the pictures. 
> >> I hope you were able to go yourself on Sat. 
> >> 
> >> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 7:53:17 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>> Ted, 
> >>> 
> >>> Did you make it up to Riv HQ to try the Joe?  Anything to report? 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:21:39 AM UTC-8, ted wrote: 
>  
>  Thinking of heading up there today myself. Given the blug and presale 
>  photos I assume they have at least one prototype JA there, though I 
> don't 
>  think the prototypes have the fork crown and long chainstays that the 
>  production ones will have. 
>  
>  On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote: 
> > 
> > Does anyone know if they have JA prototypes at HQ?  Was thinking 
> about 
> > heading up there to check it out. 
> > 
> > John 
> > 
> > On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray 
> > wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a 
> great 
> >> bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger 
> and order 
> >> one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!! 
> >> 
> >> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one. 
> >> 
> >> Cheers! 
> >> Chris 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an 
> > email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> > Visit this group at 

Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Patrick Kelly]

I made it to riv HQ yesterday, and I did see the prototype. It's a 52.

I was there to double check my size. I got a new PBH measurement of 86
instead of 87. I suspect I rounded up last time. I stood over a size
58 hillborne, and while it's theoretically possible for me, I'm
convinced it's too big for me. My original order of a 55 was correct.

The most entertaining part of the day was chatting with Grant about
the prototype. Apparently he was thinking it was a size 55 because
somebody else (don't remember who) that would normally ride a size 55
(same as Grant) had been riding it around a lot. Grant had been
puzzled because he felt that when he rode it, it was too small. After
measuring it and checking the actual size (to answer my "that's a size
52, right?" question), it all came clear to him that it was in fact
too small for him, because it's actually a size 52, and not a 55.

I rode an atlantis, the 1x9 hunqapillar, a clem and a large cheviot
(the medium was over at BBH). I spent most of my ride time on the 55
sam hillborne with albatross bars. I'm not one to notice subtleties of
bicycle behavior, so I cannot really say anything about any of them vs
the others. They all ride like bikes to me. :)  I can confirm that I
still don't like drop bars (mostly because of the brakes) and that I
was less excited about the bullmoose bar than I thought I would be.
Riding with the albatross bars, I'm thinking that I may actually be
very happy with the new bar on the joe appaloosa. If not, I'll
probably figure out how to put my jones h-bar on it, instead.

I was hoping to get more/better photos of the new bar, but Grant took
it out for a long ride. The shape of the new bar is a bit more
complicated than is obvious in the photos posted so far, and yes, it
has a slight drop. It looks really good to me. I was hoping to take it
for a short ride, even though it's the wrong size, just to check out
the bars, but that didn't happen.

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, David Banzer  wrote:
> I thought the bar looked like it had a little forward bend, and a slight
> drop. Does that seem right? Makes me think it was part of Grant's
> experimentation with a flipped Albatross bar over the summer, as seen in
> this Blug post:
> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/125363801684/fun-wfriction-and-scroll-down-one-post-for-the
> David
> Chicago
>
>
> On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 12:03:27 PM UTC-6, ted wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for the slow response, but I was out riding most of the day Sat. and
>> recovering the rest of it. I did make it up to RBW WHQ friday, but I didn't
>> ride the Joe so not much to report. It looked very nice and quite Sam H like
>> to me, except for the canti-post brakes. Of course it doesn't have the new
>> fork crown, and I think the stays on the production frames will be longer
>> so... The bars seem very cool. They bend foreword a bit before sweeping back
>> which I had not picked up from the pictures.
>> I hope you were able to go yourself on Sat.
>>
>> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 7:53:17 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>>>
>>> Ted,
>>>
>>> Did you make it up to Riv HQ to try the Joe?  Anything to report?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:21:39 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:

 Thinking of heading up there today myself. Given the blug and presale
 photos I assume they have at least one prototype JA there, though I don't
 think the prototypes have the fork crown and long chainstays that the
 production ones will have.

 On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if they have JA prototypes at HQ?  Was thinking about
> heading up there to check it out.
>
> John
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray
> wrote:
>>
>> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great
>> bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and 
>> order
>> one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>>
>> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Chris
>
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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[ted]

Sorry for the slow response, but I was out riding most of the day Sat. and 
recovering the rest of it. I did make it up to RBW WHQ friday, but I didn't 
ride the Joe so not much to report. It looked very nice and quite Sam H 
like to me, except for the canti-post brakes. Of course it doesn't have the 
new fork crown, and I think the stays on the production frames will be 
longer so... The bars seem very cool. They bend foreword a bit before 
sweeping back which I had not picked up from the pictures.
I hope you were able to go yourself on Sat. 

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 7:53:17 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> Ted,
>
> Did you make it up to Riv HQ to try the Joe?  Anything to report?
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:21:39 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>>
>> Thinking of heading up there today myself. Given the blug and presale 
>> photos I assume they have at least one prototype JA there, though I don't 
>> think the prototypes have the fork crown and long chainstays that the 
>> production ones will have.
>>
>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone know if they have JA prototypes at HQ?  Was thinking about 
>>> heading up there to check it out.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray 
>>> wrote:

 Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great 
 bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and 
 order one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!

 I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.

 Cheers!
 Chris



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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Surlyprof]

Ted,

Did you make it up to Riv HQ to try the Joe?  Anything to report?



On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:21:39 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>
> Thinking of heading up there today myself. Given the blug and presale 
> photos I assume they have at least one prototype JA there, though I don't 
> think the prototypes have the fork crown and long chainstays that the 
> production ones will have.
>
> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 8:09:39 AM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know if they have JA prototypes at HQ?  Was thinking about 
>> heading up there to check it out.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>>>
>>> Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great 
>>> bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and 
>>> order one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!
>>>
>>> I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>

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