Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Well, he discounted air drag from fatter tires; but I think I find that
fatter, and taller too, tires slow me down in a strong headwind compared to
28s or 32s.

And big fat 29er knobbies definitely have more wind drag in headwinds!

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:48 PM, John Stowe  wrote:

> Jan's testing method involves actually riding down a road, so air
> resistance should play into his results - at least at testing speeds (wind
> drag rises with the square of velocity) - which is another reason to trust
> his results more than those from a smooth, stationary roller.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[John Stowe]

Jan's testing method involves actually riding down a road, so air resistance 
should play into his results - at least at testing speeds (wind drag rises with 
the square of velocity) - which is another reason to trust his results more 
than those from a smooth, stationary roller.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:32 AM, panog  wrote:

> Actually 3 questions, if we add the "where to stop adding more suppleness
> to an already supple tire?".
>

True.

>
> [...] To me and my cycling exposure, the need for the extralight casings
>  is just noise; I do use open tubular type clinchers with supple walls and
> there I draw the line for a number of reasons. When and if I need lower
> rolling resistance then I use latex tubes.
>

I've used many less-than top quality road tires because my principal road
bikes have had 26" wheels, and top quality tires haven't been readily
available for the 559 and 571 sizes. So when Jan put the Elk Pass on the
market, I was thrilled. Frankly, I've not ridden "standard casing" Compass
tires, so I can't really say if, or by how much, the ELs reduce rolling
resistance (the Elk Pass comes only in the EL casing). But the improvement
over the already very decent 1.35" Kojaks was so noticeable that I spent
almost $1K in stocking up. (I had swapped 622 35 mm Kojaks on my erstwhile
Ram for original issue Challenge Parigi Roubaix -- as delicate a tire, I
may add, as any I've used -- and, while the difference was quite
noticeable, it wasn't as noticeable as between the 559 X 1.35 Ks and the
Elk Passes.


> Another consideration on wheel performance, when taken to the nth degree
> via extralight casings etc, is the effect of aerodynamic drag on the
> fendered, high spoke, box rimed, bulbous profile wheel which makes one
> bring into prospective where to draw the line on dialing the rubber rolling
> resistance.
>
> Very true. I think Jan discounts tire air drag as negligible, but I
certainly feel something when I'm pushing 29", 2"+ wide tires against one
of our Spring headwinds! Even more so if the tire has fat, tall knobs (that
is to say, the resistance of the knobs to rolling on pavement is very
noticeably less than when a headwind is added).

I also think fenders, or at least Velo Orange flaps, catch wind; at least,
my 2003 Riv with Elk Passes and a 70" gear doesn't seem as easy to pedal as
my identical, as to position and tires '99 gofast, sans fenders and with a
76" gear. Jan did say that, from his wind tunnel tests, the fenders on the
bike or bikes he tested didn't add to drag.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

Actually 3 questions, if we add the "where to stop adding more suppleness 
to an already supple tire?".

I absolutely agree with your statement regarding the esoteric nature of the 
perceived handling differences between wheel sizes simply due to the fact 
that the absolute judge of what feels best (beyond the kool-aid dispersed 
by the experts) is one's self and one can only judge what they are aware of 
or most often perceive as being best. 

I dont remember if it was a published BQ article or a JH blog entry that 
once said that JH found loosing "nimbleness" on 700c wheels when tire size 
exceeded 32 mm and that was the predominant reason behind moving to 650Bx38 
or x42 to regain it. What this means? To me, nothing more than that JH 
prefers 650Bx38 over 700cx35 or wider for his riding. Same with Jan's 
preference of the super supple (extralight) over the standard supple 
casings.
Should the casual rider be influenced by JH's preferences? IMO, I tend to 
be between Maybe and Not, because they may never realize the benefits they 
believe exist.
Should the higher performance rider be influenced by JH's preferences? IMO, 
if one's riding style, ability, cadence, posture etc are similar to Jan's 
and they are riding on similar tarmac and for as long as Jan does then one 
would expect some gains to be harvested by mimicking what Jan does.

After having drunk my fair share of kool-aid over the years I have come to 
the realization that with bicycles in particular, one needs to separate 
between what's merely true and what's important. To me and my cycling 
exposure, the need for the extralight casings  is just noise; I do use open 
tubular type clinchers with supple walls and there I draw the line for a 
number of reasons. When and if I need lower rolling resistance then I use 
latex tubes. 

Another consideration on wheel performance, when taken to the nth degree 
via extralight casings etc, is the effect of aerodynamic drag on the 
fendered, high spoke, box rimed, bulbous profile wheel which makes one 
bring into prospective where to draw the line on dialing the rubber rolling 
resistance.


On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 5:52:57 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> ...*snipped*.
>
> We've got 2 questions going on here, optimum wheel size and casing 
> suppleness. I rather think that the question of how wheel size affects 
> handling is more "esoteric" than that of casing suppleness, which I guess 
> is available to anyone who rides above a jogging speed. 
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 7:47 PM, panog  
> wrote:
>
>> The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling 
>> resistance, reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same 
>> watt input.
>> The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I 
>> dont think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly 
>> dependent on the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to 
>> harness the marginal increase in performance.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Yes, the benefit of casing suppleness is principally lower rolling
resistance, though I find that more supple tires are also more comfortable
at a given tire pressure (and, OTOH, that they often require a higher
pressure to avoid sidewall flop than do tires with stiffer sidewalls).

We've got 2 questions going on here, optimum wheel size and casing
suppleness. I rather think that the question of how wheel size affects
handling is more "esoteric" than that of casing suppleness, which I guess
is available to anyone who rides above a jogging speed.

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 7:47 PM, panog  wrote:

> The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling
> resistance, reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same
> watt input.
> The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I
> dont think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly
> dependent on the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to
> harness the marginal increase in performance.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[ted]

And how much he or she cares about that difference 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling resistance, 
reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same watt input. 
The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I dont 
think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly dependent on 
the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to harness the 
marginal increase in performance. 


On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 5:04:29 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Yeah, but his tests were to my judgment not conclusive. How do you "prove" 
> that this handling is better than that? And for whom? Once again, my own 
> experience, which is extensive, if not as extensive as Jan's, contradicts 
> this opinion.
> 
> 
> The principal benefits of the extralights is not weight, or principally 
> weight, as far as I know, it's the greater suppleness of the casings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:51 PM, panog  wrote:
> 
> Yes he did and he included a series of his tests in BQ to back up the claim. 
> I dont think JH is alone on the assessment of the 32s being optimum size for 
> 700c wheels. Another who comes to mind is Mike Kone of Boulder Bicycle. 
> I am of the understanding that sizes beyond that are focused more in comfort 
> at the expense of handling or speed. Furthermore, one aspect that appears to 
> be often overlooked is the effect of a significantly taller tire installed on 
> a road bicycle originally designed for a BB spaced to accommodate up to 32mm 
> tires, regardless if such tire fits the fork or chainstays.
> Granted, unless one pushes the bike up to higher performance ranges (and has 
> a bike that is specifically designed to comply to such actions), these 
> theories maybe largely insignificant although true. However, if that's the 
> case, why one would care about sacrificing the incremental benefits of the 
> extralights over the standard casings?   

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Yeah, but his tests were to my judgment not conclusive. How do you "prove"
that this handling is better than that? And for whom? Once again, my own
experience, which is extensive, if not as extensive as Jan's, contradicts
this opinion.

The principal benefits of the extralights is not weight, or principally
weight, as far as I know, it's the greater suppleness of the casings.



On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:51 PM, panog  wrote:

> Yes he did and he included a series of his tests in BQ to back up the
> claim. I dont think JH is alone on the assessment of the 32s being optimum
> size for 700c wheels. Another who comes to mind is Mike Kone of Boulder
> Bicycle.
> I am of the understanding that sizes beyond that are focused more in
> comfort at the expense of handling or speed. Furthermore, one aspect that
> appears to be often overlooked is the effect of a significantly taller tire
> installed on a road bicycle originally designed for a BB spaced to
> accommodate up to 32mm tires, regardless if such tire fits the fork or
> chainstays.
> Granted, unless one pushes the bike up to higher performance ranges (and
> has a bike that is specifically designed to comply to such actions), these
> theories maybe largely insignificant although true. However, if that's the
> case, why one would care about sacrificing the incremental benefits of the
> extralights over the standard casings?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I have several compass tires on various bikes.  All standard casing.  Very 
pleased and frankly spoiled by them.  Love supple tires!

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

Yes he did and he included a series of his tests in BQ to back up the 
claim. I dont think JH is alone on the assessment of the 32s being optimum 
size for 700c wheels. Another who comes to mind is Mike Kone of Boulder 
Bicycle. 
I am of the understanding that sizes beyond that are focused more in 
comfort at the expense of handling or speed. Furthermore, one aspect that 
appears to be often overlooked is the effect of a significantly taller tire 
installed on a road bicycle originally designed for a BB spaced to 
accommodate up to 32mm tires, regardless if such tire fits the fork or 
chainstays.
Granted, unless one pushes the bike up to higher performance ranges (and 
has a bike that is specifically designed to comply to such actions), these 
theories maybe largely insignificant although true. However, if that's the 
case, why one would care about sacrificing the incremental benefits of the 
extralights over the standard casings?   

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 8:55:36 AM UTC-4, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I remember Jan saying something about 32s being the optimal size for 700c 
> on pavement. I can fit true 38s under my fenders, but perhaps that would be 
> better suited to dirt or gravel. Or has the thinking moved on since then?



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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Jon BALER]

I was just looking for a similar tire for my wife's bike.  The compass 
tires were all sold out, and I thought she might not appreciate tan 
sidewalls.   So I went with Schwalbe Kojack, 700x35, folding tires, which 
weigh a respectable 330 grams

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 10:47:40 AM UTC-4, Geir Bentzen wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I use the extra light 38 mm on my Hunqapillar. I could use the 42 mm, but 
> they came on sale after I bought the ones I have. Which means I have used 
> them for about 10 months now and had no flats at all. I weigh above 110 
> kilos or 245 pounds and I ride on both gravel roads and asphalt. I have 
> come to love the Compass tires and will absolutely recommend them. 
>
> Geir
>
> On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 2:05:00 PM UTC-4, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>>
>> I'm thinking about making the move to Compass tires on my commuter Sam.
>> Which ones would you all recommend for an urban commute on not great 
>> roads?
>> I would use Stan's or similar in Schwalbe extralight tubes to try and 
>> keep the weight reasonable and still reduce the number of flats as close to 
>> my ideal (0) as possible.
>> What say you wise ones?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Ian Strader]

I ride Rat Trap Pass 2.3" tires on my mtb commuter. In addition to greatly 
reducing vibration/shocks, the lower pressures enabled by such large volume 
greatly reduces the likelihood of flatting. I regularly roll over broken 
glass on my RTP's that would have pierced the 28mm Marathon Supremes on my 
old commuter due to their higher pressure. I haven't had a flat since 
switching in December in hundreds of miles of riding over the glass strewn 
streets of Seattle vs about 1 flat/mo with the Supremes (wee problem with 
car break-ins/public drinking here). Last, the wide contact patch of these 
tires allows me to pretty much ignore the line I'm taking on pavement. 
Seattle DOT commonly uses concrete mat street paving with >1" wide seems 
between the mats and no pitch seal. I used to have to carefully negotiate 
these seems on my old tires but can now blissfully ignore 'em. Huge 
reduction in stress and increase in riding bliss!

With all that said, I wouldn't buy a bike today that could take less than a 
42mm tire. And the suppler the better!


On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 11:05:00 AM UTC-7, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about making the move to Compass tires on my commuter Sam.
> Which ones would you all recommend for an urban commute on not great roads?
> I would use Stan's or similar in Schwalbe extralight tubes to try and keep 
> the weight reasonable and still reduce the number of flats as close to my 
> ideal (0) as possible.
> What say you wise ones?
>
> Jay
>

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Geir Bentzen]

Hi,
I use the extra light 38 mm on my Hunqapillar. I could use the 42 mm, but 
they came on sale after I bought the ones I have. Which means I have used 
them for about 10 months now and had no flats at all. I weigh above 110 
kilos or 245 pounds and I ride on both gravel roads and asphalt. I have 
come to love the Compass tires and will absolutely recommend them. 

Geir

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 2:05:00 PM UTC-4, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about making the move to Compass tires on my commuter Sam.
> Which ones would you all recommend for an urban commute on not great roads?
> I would use Stan's or similar in Schwalbe extralight tubes to try and keep 
> the weight reasonable and still reduce the number of flats as close to my 
> ideal (0) as possible.
> What say you wise ones?
>
> Jay
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Jan theorizes that there is an optimum diameter -- and absolute number --
for optimum handing, and that this correlates more or less to 622 X 32, 584
X 40 or 42, and 559 X 50.

I don't buy it, since the best handling bikes (thanks again, Grant!) I've
ridden were designed for 559 wheels with tires ranging from 1" to 35 mm.
So, if you don't buy this theory, choose your tire for speed or cushioning
or the best combination of both. me, I find that 28 mm is a sweet spot for
road, and 50 mm is a sweet spot for our sandy soil; this regardless of bead
seat diameter.

Note that I ride Elk Passes, 27 to 29 mm depending on rim, on firm dirt
with glee and comfort; and my 51 mm [622] F Freds roll very nicely on
pavement, thank you (the [559] Rat Trap Pass rolls even better, I'm told).

So, me, if I were riding mostly on pavement, even roughish pavement, and I
had all the choices in the world, I'd choose something narrower than 32,
though a Compass EL 32 wouldn't scare me off by any means. For mostly dirt,
unless it is smoother than what we get around here, I'd certainly prefer
38s to 32a.

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM, Jay in Tel Aviv  wrote:

> I remember Jan saying something about 32s being the optimal size for 700c
> on pavement. I can fit true 38s under my fenders, but perhaps that would be
> better suited to dirt or gravel. Or has the thinking moved on since then?
>
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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I remember Jan saying something about 32s being the optimal size for 700c on 
pavement. I can fit true 38s under my fenders, but perhaps that would be better 
suited to dirt or gravel. Or has the thinking moved on since then?

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

I use the standard casing Bon Jon 35's on my Riv commuter. Haven't seen the 
need for the extralights, particularly while commuting.
Another good choice is the Soma Supple Vitesse at 33 or 38 mm (Panaracer made 
clincher tire with tubular sidewalls, also offered in standard and extralight 
casings). Significantly less expensive than the Compass due to their 
availability from competing online retailers.

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Surlyprof]

I ride Barlow Pass ELs under fenders without a hitch.  I haven't flatted 
yet but I also didn't use that wheelset for my commute.  Commuting (also 
less than desirable roads) I used 40mm Mondials under fenders also with no 
clearance problems.  I REALLY like the Compass Barlow Pass tires.  I was 
initially bummed that the Bon Jon Pass (35mm) came out right after I 
ordered but, in hindsight, I'm glad I have the wider tires.  If I was using 
them for commuting rather than just fun, I may have bought the standard 
casings for the extra protection.  That said, I pump the ELs up to about 
40# and the cush seems to soak up any problems with debris, railroad tracks 
and holes in the roads.  Also have been riding them on some gravel trails 
with no problems.

John

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 11:05:00 AM UTC-7, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about making the move to Compass tires on my commuter Sam.
> Which ones would you all recommend for an urban commute on not great roads?
> I would use Stan's or similar in Schwalbe extralight tubes to try and keep 
> the weight reasonable and still reduce the number of flats as close to my 
> ideal (0) as possible.
> What say you wise ones?
>
> Jay
>

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Johnny Alien]

I agree.  Having used both I have found that the riding difference is very 
small between the two so I have zero problem saving some money and getting 
the standard casing. I have a set of light casings on my Roadeo.  Unless 
someone is really concerned about weight I would actually suggest saving 
the money and going the standard route.

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[RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

For reference, I have 35 mm Hypers on there now. I use 32 or 35 Supremes 
under fenders in the winter.

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 9:05:00 PM UTC+3, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about making the move to Compass tires on my commuter Sam.
> Which ones would you all recommend for an urban commute on not great roads?
> I would use Stan's or similar in Schwalbe extralight tubes to try and keep 
> the weight reasonable and still reduce the number of flats as close to my 
> ideal (0) as possible.
> What say you wise ones?
>
> Jay
>

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