Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

Has anyone on list purchased and used a pair of the new Compass 
Centerpulls? I'm leaning toward them, for a new touring bike, and am 
interested in any real-life feedback on their performance.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Saturday, December 6, 2014 at 5:44:31 PM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> We'll offer them separately as soon as we have enough in stock. Polishing 
> them is tricky, since the post has to remain full diameter and roundness... 
> Our polisher is working on them, but for now, we only have enough in stock 
> to fit on complete brakesets.
>
> The upgrade kit has proven remarkably popular. Clearly, there are many 
> people who have a set of Mafacs on a bike they love.
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>
> Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Jan Heine]

We'll offer them separately as soon as we have enough in stock. Polishing 
them is tricky, since the post has to remain full diameter and roundness... 
Our polisher is working on them, but for now, we only have enough in stock 
to fit on complete brakesets.

The upgrade kit has proven remarkably popular. Clearly, there are many 
people who have a set of Mafacs on a bike they love.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Saturday, December 6, 2014 7:43:19 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> " Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the seatstays/fork 
> blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the stays/blades, 
> which limits how wide the brake can open."
>
>
> I sure hope that Compass makes those brake holders available separately.  
> They appear to be another real upgrade from stock MAFAC hardware.  That's 
> the only piece that doesn't appear to be available separately.  Hopefully 
> that's just a temporary condition.  People who buy that $125 hardware 
> upgrade kit for their MAFAC Racers will probably want those nicer pad 
> holders.
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

" Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the seatstays/fork 
blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the stays/blades, 
which limits how wide the brake can open."


I sure hope that Compass makes those brake holders available separately.  
They appear to be another real upgrade from stock MAFAC hardware.  That's 
the only piece that doesn't appear to be available separately.  Hopefully 
that's just a temporary condition.  People who buy that $125 hardware 
upgrade kit for their MAFAC Racers will probably want those nicer pad 
holders.

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Jan Heine]

Ernest Csuka of Cycles Alex Singer always said that no adjustment should be 
at the end of the range. Good bikes and good components are designed so 
that you don't need to push things to the very edge. In Rivendell's early 
days, this wasn't the case, since only short-reach brakes were commonly 
available, so Grant spec'd the clearances so the brakes were at the bottom 
of the slot, so you could fit the widest possible tires. All was fine until 
Toyo got it half a millimeter off on some Rambouillets, and you had to file 
the slots of the brake to stop the pads from hitting the tires... I am glad 
that we now have better components and no longer need to take these risks.

The Compass brakes are designed to provide optimum clearances with 42 mm 
tires and the pads 2/3 of the way down the slot. Moving the braze-ons 
higher (and the pads lower in the slots) would increase the clearance, but 
if you use our rack, it would move the fender mount too high. The brakes 
open far enough for 42 mm tires as designed, so there is no need to push 
them any further. Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the 
seatstays/fork blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the 
stays/blades, which limits how wide the brake can open.

If you use narrower tires (say 38 mm), then it makes sense to move the 
pivots down a bit, so the rack sits at the right level above the tires 
again. We intend the pads always to be in the middle third of the 
adjustment range, so that you have some wiggle room.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:05:00 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Can anyone comment on benefits/risks of placing the centerpull braze-on 
> posts so pads are normally at position of longest reach? 
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[ascpgh]

Same for me, now I need to figure how to best incorporate the new center 
pulls to a new frame with the best result and economy. Modify a production 
frame? Look at TIG steel custom? Good thing winter is just starting, I've 
got issues to work out!

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Friday, December 5, 2014 7:05:00 PM UTC-5, BSWP wrote:
>
> Great to hear Jan chime in here! Can anyone comment on benefits/risks of 
> placing the centerpull braze-on posts so pads are normally at position of 
> longest reach? That is, spec'ing post placement on a custom frame to match 
> pads to rims, with pads at point of longest reach on the brake arms? It 
> seems that will give the most clearance for inflated tires, but may also 
> have an effect on braking, on effort required at the lever and cable 
> travel. Maybe not enough to worry about? Or worth getting just right for 
> specific rims?
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

It definitely has an effect on the resulting mechanical advantage.  Run the 
numbers on one of the online calculators to estimate how much of a 
difference it'll make.  

On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:05:00 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Great to hear Jan chime in here! Can anyone comment on benefits/risks of 
> placing the centerpull braze-on posts so pads are normally at position of 
> longest reach? That is, spec'ing post placement on a custom frame to match 
> pads to rims, with pads at point of longest reach on the brake arms? It 
> seems that will give the most clearance for inflated tires, but may also 
> have an effect on braking, on effort required at the lever and cable 
> travel. Maybe not enough to worry about? Or worth getting just right for 
> specific rims?
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

Great to hear Jan chime in here! Can anyone comment on benefits/risks of 
placing the centerpull braze-on posts so pads are normally at position of 
longest reach? That is, spec'ing post placement on a custom frame to match 
pads to rims, with pads at point of longest reach on the brake arms? It 
seems that will give the most clearance for inflated tires, but may also 
have an effect on braking, on effort required at the lever and cable 
travel. Maybe not enough to worry about? Or worth getting just right for 
specific rims?

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

My brother gets Mafac cantis, and the shorter armed single version, to
boot, to work well; and so do others, obviously. Me and my bike shop
surrogates: no go.

Must be moon phases or one's zodiacal position

Patrick "no luck, boots or no boots" Moore




On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Matthew J  wrote:

> > Mafac Cantis, both single and tandem versions (salmons, of course and
> with both OEM Mafac levers and modern Tektros. Professionals could not get
> these to work.
>
> My experience as well.
>
> But Peter Weigle uses them on more than a few of his bikes and reviews
> claim they work.  Maybe his magic touch goes beyond perfect lugs and
> beautiful paint?
>
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Jan Heine]

Paul Price (the "Paul" of Paul Component Engineering) and I have known each 
other for a very long time. I remember how he called me up after I wrote an 
article about centerpulls for the Riv. Reader, way back in the last century 
(before Bicycle Quarterly), and asked about them. I sent him a set of old 
Mafac Racers, and he liked them so much that he made his own Racers.

We talked back then about forging the arms, and he told me that in the 
U.S., there simply isn't anybody making small aluminum forgings like that. 
So you basically have a choice of CNC-machining in the U.S. or having them 
forged where the technology exists. These days, even TA cranks are forged 
in Taiwan. Forging requires a higher initial investment, but the part is 
stronger and thus can be made lighter, and there isn't as much waste. (With 
CNC-machining, you make a lot of chips as you chisel the part out of a 
block of aluminum. With forging, you squish a piece of aluminum that is 
roughly the right size into a die that gives the part the shape you want.)

To me, "made in the U.S." isn't that important, as long as it's made under 
good working conditions. My friends live all over the world, and it doesn't 
make sense to prefer my American friends over my Japanese, French or German 
friends. We look at each supplier to make sure they are working in ways 
that I can support, both with concern to labor and to the environment. 

Beyond that, I do prefer short supply paths, for environmental and 
logistical reasons. If possible, we'll make components close to Seattle, 
like our laser-cut rack tabs, our frame alignment gauges, and some other 
projects that are still in development. We buy American-made brake shoes, 
and our tire wipers are made by a retired guy in the U.S. who is grateful 
for the extra income. Our leather washers for fender mounting come from 
California...

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
Seattle WA USA
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, 
> but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
> economy.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

> Mafac Cantis, both single and tandem versions (salmons, of course and 
with both OEM Mafac levers and modern Tektros. Professionals could not get 
these to work.

My experience as well.

But Peter Weigle uses them on more than a few of his bikes and reviews 
claim they work.  Maybe his magic touch goes beyond perfect lugs and 
beautiful paint?

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Jim Bronson]

I had never heard of the Mafac Tiger before your post but a Google search
lead to quite a number of links.  Learn something new every day.  Also, it
looks like it really should be MAFAC Tiger/Racer/etc as MAFAC stands
for Manufacture
Auvergnoise de Freins et Assessoires pour Cycle.

Who knew?  Not me at any rate.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/mafac1-comp.html

-Jim

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Mafac Racers are smaller than Paul Racers and the Compass brakes.  Without
> question if you are running 700x32 or thereabouts with fenders, Mafac
> Racers can be had very affordably and are really fun to profile and
> polish.  But for 650Bx42 + fenders, Mafac Racers are not an option, right?
> You need Raids which are much rarer, or the very rare and weird Tiger.
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 12:38:52 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Option E would be Mafac Racers, which aren't as pretty, but can be
>> polished with some Simichrome and which have excellent stopping power. Last
>> time I checked, even NOS Racers are fairly easy to find.
>>
>> --Eric N
>> www.CampyOnly.com
>> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
>> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>>
>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>> Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in
>> Mr Price's register.
>>
>> Compass brakes are *partially* made in the USA, but farther away from me
>> than Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the
>> Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only
>> people that really have a choice between those two products are people who
>> are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on
>> centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated
>> rack (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can
>> buy some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun,
>> too.
>>
>> Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay
>>
>> *p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run
>> center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between
>> centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac
>> Raid yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set
>> up.  Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware
>> from Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not
>> made in the USA.
>>
>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA.
>>> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages,
>>> but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local
>>> economy.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:

 And just like that, they're announced as available

 http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-
 brakes-are-here/

 Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.

 - Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

I'll bet they weren't as bad as my all-time tied losers:

Avid BB7 *road bike design* disks; absolutely useless even with 180 front
rotor, best housing and organic pads. The *mountain* design is very good.

Mafac Cantis, both single and tandem versions (salmons, of course and with
both OEM Mafac levers and modern Tektros. Professionals could not get these
to work.

Both kinds were good enough to ride the bikes with, but no pleasant.

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:03 AM, Michael Hechmer  wrote:

> Ok, I'm rather late to this discussion but after 35 years of riding I have
> set up and used a lot of brakes.  The two worst brakes I have ever had were
> shimano (550?) cantis and an early, mid 80's diacompe canti. Both hard to
> set up and poor stopping with shimano levers.  My favorite have been the
> Paul's neo-retros.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Mafac Racers are smaller than Paul Racers and the Compass brakes.  Without 
question if you are running 700x32 or thereabouts with fenders, Mafac 
Racers can be had very affordably and are really fun to profile and polish. 
 But for 650Bx42 + fenders, Mafac Racers are not an option, right?  You 
need Raids which are much rarer, or the very rare and weird Tiger.  

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 12:38:52 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Option E would be Mafac Racers, which aren't as pretty, but can be 
> polished with some Simichrome and which have excellent stopping power. Last 
> time I checked, even NOS Racers are fairly easy to find.
>
> --Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Bill Lindsay > 
> wrote:
>
> Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in Mr 
> Price's register.  
>
> Compass brakes are *partially* made in the USA, but farther away from me 
> than Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the 
> Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only 
> people that really have a choice between those two products are people who 
> are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on 
> centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated 
> rack (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can 
> buy some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun, 
> too.
>
> Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay  
>
> *p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run 
> center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between 
> centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac 
> Raid yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set 
> up.  Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware 
> from Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not 
> made in the USA.  
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
>> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, 
>> but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
>> economy.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>>>
>>> And just like that, they're announced as available
>>>
>>>
>>> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/
>>>
>>> Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>  -- 
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

I selectively edited out the "and USA" portion of the ad page!!!

Concerns humbly withdrawn!

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 10:41:38 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in Mr 
> Price's register.  
>
> Compass brakes are *partially* made in the USA, but farther away from me 
> than Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the 
> Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only 
> people that really have a choice between those two products are people who 
> are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on 
> centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated 
> rack (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can 
> buy some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun, 
> too.
>
> Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay  
>
> *p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run 
> center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between 
> centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac 
> Raid yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set 
> up.  Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware 
> from Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not 
> made in the USA.  
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
>> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, 
>> but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
>> economy.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>>>
>>> And just like that, they're announced as available
>>>
>>>
>>> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/
>>>
>>> Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.
>>>
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Eric Norris]

Option E would be Mafac Racers, which aren't as pretty, but can be polished 
with some Simichrome and which have excellent stopping power. Last time I 
checked, even NOS Racers are fairly easy to find.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 
> Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in Mr 
> Price's register.  
> 
> Compass brakes are partially made in the USA, but farther away from me than 
> Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the 
> Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only 
> people that really have a choice between those two products are people who 
> are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on 
> centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated rack 
> (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can buy 
> some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun, too.
> 
> Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay  
> 
> *p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run 
> center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between 
> centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac Raid 
> yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set up.  
> Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware from 
> Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not made in 
> the USA.  
> 
>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
>> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, but 
>> I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
>> economy.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>>> And just like that, they're announced as available
>>> 
>>> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/
>>> 
>>> Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.
>>> 
>>> - Andrew, Berkeley
> 
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in Mr 
Price's register.  

Compass brakes are *partially* made in the USA, but farther away from me 
than Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the 
Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only 
people that really have a choice between those two products are people who 
are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on 
centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated 
rack (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can 
buy some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun, 
too.

Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay  

*p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run 
center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between 
centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac 
Raid yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set 
up.  Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware 
from Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not 
made in the USA.  

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
> I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, 
> but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
> economy.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>>
>> And just like that, they're announced as available
>>
>>
>> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/
>>
>> Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.
>>
>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 
I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, 
but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local 
economy.


On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:19:34 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> And just like that, they're announced as available
>
>
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/
>
> Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

And just like that, they're announced as available

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/

Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

You aren't that wrong.  Still pricey.  But likely worth it on the right 
custom build.

Wonder how long before we see a custom Riv with a set?  An otherwise 
straight up 650B Hilsen with Compass braze on brakes?!?

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:36:04 AM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> That is a very pleasant surprise.  I'm very happy to be wrong.  I hope 
> Compass makes their reasonable and fair margins at that price.  The rack is 
> fantastic.  
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 6:08:37 AM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote:
>>
>> > They aren't available yet.
>>
>> They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So 
>> $500.00 a bit off. 
>>
>> http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[David Spranger]

Building a custom bike is pure fantasy for me, but those brakes just 
entered that fantasy.

David
Charlotte, NC

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:36:04 AM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> That is a very pleasant surprise.  I'm very happy to be wrong.  I hope 
> Compass makes their reasonable and fair margins at that price.  The rack is 
> fantastic.  
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2014 6:08:37 AM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote:
>>
>> > They aren't available yet.
>>
>> They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So 
>> $500.00 a bit off. 
>>
>> http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

That is a very pleasant surprise.  I'm very happy to be wrong.  I hope 
Compass makes their reasonable and fair margins at that price.  The rack is 
fantastic.  

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 6:08:37 AM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote:
>
> > They aren't available yet.
>
> They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So 
> $500.00 a bit off. 
>
> http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Leslie]

Just saw that  

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:08:37 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:
>
> > They aren't available yet.
>
> They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So 
> $500.00 a bit off. 
>
> http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

> They aren't available yet.

They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So 
$500.00 a bit off. 

http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Michael Hechmer]

Ok, I'm rather late to this discussion but after 35 years of riding I have 
set up and used a lot of brakes.  The two worst brakes I have ever had were 
shimano (550?) cantis and an early, mid 80's diacompe canti. Both hard to 
set up and poor stopping with shimano levers.  My favorite have been the 
Paul's neo-retros.  They have been on a number of my bikes.  I have sold 
the bikes but never the brakes.  I have had a lot of other brakes I really 
liked.  Campy Grand Sport, which I have had for 25years and are still on my 
winter bike.  Chorus & Ultegra side pulls. Great power, good modulation, 
easy set up, but all needing regular attention.  I have the posted racers 
on the tandem. and RacerM's on my Ram.

It's hard for me to compare the power of the Racers with the retros since 
the loaded tandem weighs 400+ lbs.  However they do a pretty good job both 
in stopping the tandem and in modulation.  My only complaint against them 
has been the opening.  They are specked for 55mm fenders and 38 mm inflated 
tires, although I have managed to get the VO 60mm fenders under them.  The 
Racer Ms on the Ram are fabulous for a fendered bike with mid size tires on 
them.  When all is said and done, though the Neo-Retros overcome all of 
these problems.  I have swapped out the pads for shortys and so they open 
up as wide as I need them.  They never interfere with any fender.  They are 
incredibly powerful and when matched with tectro levers offer great 
modulation.  My only complaint against cantis is because they sit below the 
fenders, they get very dirty.

When I bought my first set of Paul's I had a hard time setting them up. 
 Once I learned how to work with these brakes I have found them the easiest 
brakes I own to set up and they hold that set up wonderfully.  If anyone 
has a pair and is struggling with set up I would suggest studying their 
instructions  http://www.paulcomp.com/shared/instructions/neoretro.pdf ) 
carefully and be patient with yourself.  After you have worked with them a 
bit a light will go off and it will be very easy.  If you have worked with 
other "modern" Cantis or CPs, its like switching from Windows to OSX. 
 Confusion followed by, "Oh that's how you do it, simple."

Good brakes can be a lifetime investment.  I like that Paul sells all the 
wear parts individually and at reasonable prices.  I expect these brakes to 
outlive me by many, many years.

Michael

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 8:23:21 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Whoops, sorry, the replacement for the Dura Ace/Tourney front centerpull 
> was a dual pivot, 57 mm reach Shimano; salmon pads.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> Someone on the boblist (I think) traded or gave me a pair of "Dura Ace" 
>> (so pantographed; Olof Stroh says Shimano sold these under the DA moniker 
>> for 6 months in 1976; but *in re *= Tourney) centerpulls that he had 
>> manually polished. Those were both exquisitely beautiful (until the 
>> unprotected aluminum oxidized) and more powerful than any Racer or Weinmann 
>> I've used -- possibly slightly shorter arms. But IME, good calipers (even 
>> single pivot) worked just as well -- all instances with salmon Kool Stops 
>> (but centerpulls all mounted with single bolt bracket). I replaced the DA 
>> centerpull on the Motobecane now owned by Eric after coming down a steep 
>> hill with 30 lb of groceries, hauling on the lever, and finding that, after 
>> a certain point, lever travel meant no augmentation of retardation. The 57 
>> mm reach single pivot replacement worked better.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Eric Norris > > wrote:
>>
>>> Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower 
>>> cost by sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have 
>>> them professionally polished, and Voila!
>>>
>>> The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re 
>>> about the most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and 
>>> more modern centerpulls).
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>  
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> *
> *[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore 
> himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to 
> destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his 
> needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely 
> having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in 
> electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing 
> so.”*
> *  
>   -- George Orwell, Pleasure

Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

Whoops, sorry, the replacement for the Dura Ace/Tourney front centerpull
was a dual pivot, 57 mm reach Shimano; salmon pads.


On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Someone on the boblist (I think) traded or gave me a pair of "Dura Ace"
> (so pantographed; Olof Stroh says Shimano sold these under the DA moniker
> for 6 months in 1976; but *in re *= Tourney) centerpulls that he had
> manually polished. Those were both exquisitely beautiful (until the
> unprotected aluminum oxidized) and more powerful than any Racer or Weinmann
> I've used -- possibly slightly shorter arms. But IME, good calipers (even
> single pivot) worked just as well -- all instances with salmon Kool Stops
> (but centerpulls all mounted with single bolt bracket). I replaced the DA
> centerpull on the Motobecane now owned by Eric after coming down a steep
> hill with 30 lb of groceries, hauling on the lever, and finding that, after
> a certain point, lever travel meant no augmentation of retardation. The 57
> mm reach single pivot replacement worked better.
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
>
>> Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower
>> cost by sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have
>> them professionally polished, and Voila!
>>
>> The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re about
>> the most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and more
>> modern centerpulls).
>>
>> --
>>
>


-- 
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*
*[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore
himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to
destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his
needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely
having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in
electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing
so.”*
*
  -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots*

*Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money,
I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have
the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and
though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not
money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and
though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me
nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money
vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh
not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in
iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all
things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money,
these three; but the greatest of these is money. *
*
 -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying*

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

Someone on the boblist (I think) traded or gave me a pair of "Dura Ace" (so
pantographed; Olof Stroh says Shimano sold these under the DA moniker for 6
months in 1976; but *in re *= Tourney) centerpulls that he had manually
polished. Those were both exquisitely beautiful (until the unprotected
aluminum oxidized) and more powerful than any Racer or Weinmann I've used
-- possibly slightly shorter arms. But IME, good calipers (even single
pivot) worked just as well -- all instances with salmon Kool Stops (but
centerpulls all mounted with single bolt bracket). I replaced the DA
centerpull on the Motobecane now owned by Eric after coming down a steep
hill with 30 lb of groceries, hauling on the lever, and finding that, after
a certain point, lever travel meant no augmentation of retardation. The 57
mm reach single pivot replacement worked better.

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:

> Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower
> cost by sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have
> them professionally polished, and Voila!
>
> The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re about
> the most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and more
> modern centerpulls).
>
> --
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Eric Norris]

Oops. Meant to say that the Mafac Racers are *not* nearly as pretty.

--Eric N
campyonly...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Blog: http://CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 

> On Dec 3, 2014, at 4:56 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
> 
> Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower cost 
> by sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have them 
> professionally polished, and Voila!
> 
> The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re about the 
> most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and more modern 
> centerpulls).
> 
> --Eric N
> campyonly...@me.com 
> www.CampyOnly.com
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
> Blog: http://CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2014, at 4:05 PM, Bill Lindsay > > wrote:
>> 
>> They aren't available yet.  They look really nice, but be prepared for 
>> MASSIVE sticker shock.  Every time Jan comments on them, he points out how 
>> much cheaper it is to CNC parts (Paul) and how much cheaper generic 
>> stainless hardware is (Paul), and how much nicer the brake pad holders are 
>> than Mafac originals.  People are reading the tea leaves and bracing for 
>> them being MUCH more expensive that Paul Racers.  Over $500 for one bike's 
>> worth would not surprise me at all.  For a spare-no-expense custom, you 
>> might as well go all-out, though.  
>> 
>> On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:24:09 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>> A fiend just forwarded me the link to the upcoming Compass RAID brakes:
>> 
>> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/compass-centerpull-brakes/ 
>> 
>> 
>> I continue to dream and scheme for a new custom frame, and know that it will 
>> have centerpulls. I had been set on the Pauls, but the new Compass brakes 
>> look interesting and enticing. Forged arms! But it also seems that pad 
>> adjustment will be trickier than on the Pauls. Anyone know, or willing to 
>> share, more information on availability?
>> 
>> - Andrew, Berkeley
>> 
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Eric Norris]

Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower cost by 
sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have them 
professionally polished, and Voila!

The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re about the 
most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and more modern 
centerpulls).

--Eric N
campyonly...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Blog: http://CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 

> On Dec 3, 2014, at 4:05 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 
> They aren't available yet.  They look really nice, but be prepared for 
> MASSIVE sticker shock.  Every time Jan comments on them, he points out how 
> much cheaper it is to CNC parts (Paul) and how much cheaper generic stainless 
> hardware is (Paul), and how much nicer the brake pad holders are than Mafac 
> originals.  People are reading the tea leaves and bracing for them being MUCH 
> more expensive that Paul Racers.  Over $500 for one bike's worth would not 
> surprise me at all.  For a spare-no-expense custom, you might as well go 
> all-out, though.  
> 
> On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:24:09 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
> A fiend just forwarded me the link to the upcoming Compass RAID brakes:
> 
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/compass-centerpull-brakes/ 
> 
> 
> I continue to dream and scheme for a new custom frame, and know that it will 
> have centerpulls. I had been set on the Pauls, but the new Compass brakes 
> look interesting and enticing. Forged arms! But it also seems that pad 
> adjustment will be trickier than on the Pauls. Anyone know, or willing to 
> share, more information on availability?
> 
> - Andrew, Berkeley
> 
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

They aren't available yet.  They look really nice, but be prepared for 
MASSIVE sticker shock.  Every time Jan comments on them, he points out how 
much cheaper it is to CNC parts (Paul) and how much cheaper generic 
stainless hardware is (Paul), and how much nicer the brake pad holders are 
than Mafac originals.  People are reading the tea leaves and bracing for 
them being MUCH more expensive that Paul Racers.  Over $500 for one bike's 
worth would not surprise me at all.  For a spare-no-expense custom, you 
might as well go all-out, though.  

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:24:09 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> A fiend just forwarded me the link to the upcoming Compass RAID brakes:
>
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/compass-centerpull-brakes/
>
> I continue to dream and scheme for a new custom frame, and know that it 
> will have centerpulls. I had been set on the Pauls, but the new Compass 
> brakes look interesting and enticing. Forged arms! But it also seems that 
> pad adjustment will be trickier than on the Pauls. Anyone know, or willing 
> to share, more information on availability?
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

A fiend just forwarded me the link to the upcoming Compass RAID brakes:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/compass-centerpull-brakes/

I continue to dream and scheme for a new custom frame, and know that it 
will have centerpulls. I had been set on the Pauls, but the new Compass 
brakes look interesting and enticing. Forged arms! But it also seems that 
pad adjustment will be trickier than on the Pauls. Anyone know, or willing 
to share, more information on availability?

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

It hit me this morning (thanks, Peet's!) that with brazed-on centerpulls 
(like the Paul Racers), one actually has wide latitude (or longitude, heh) 
over how far apart the brazed-on centerpull posts/bosses/pivots are placed. 
Thus, working with a frame builder, one can fine-tune the brakes for the 
width of tire and rim one expects to ride with. Naturally, the pivots need 
careful mitering/filing to fit cleanly on the forks and seat stays, but 
they don't have to be exactly 78 mm apart, for example.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Aaron Young]

So a particular brake may work well on a certain bike, but put the same
brake on another frame and you may get different results.  Got it.

Thanks,
Aaron

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Aaron, I'd just defer back to Brian's post.  It's a system.  Everything
> matters.  Rims brakepads levers cables housing.  Especially the placement
> of the bridges.  Everything.
>
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Aaron, I'd just defer back to Brian's post.  It's a system.  Everything 
matters.  Rims brakepads levers cables housing.  Especially the placement of 
the bridges.  Everything.  

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Aaron Young]

Hi Bill,

Just doing some research reading about brakes and came across your update.

You mention that the DC 610's work, even work well.  Then you say the
1970's restoration with Dia Compes are really powerful.  What do you think
is the difference here?  I would guess that both Dia Compe brake sets are
pretty similar and should have a similar feel, but the description sounds
like they are quite different.  Is it the levers that are different?  Just
the way they are set up?  I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks,

Aaron Young
The Dalles, OR

On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Thanks for that reply Michael.  As you can see, though, I made that switch
> almost a year ago.  The post of mine you replied to is dated 10/9/2013.  :-)
>
> I guess coming in on a year does allow me to give an update.  The
> backstory is that this is my road bike.  A Black Mountain Cycles, which is
> functionally similar to a Roadeo.  It takes 700c wheels 130mm rear spacing
> and Tektro 539 brakes.  I had it built with 539s and got the itch to try
> centerpulls.  Motivators included:
>
> 1.  Jan Heine goes on and on how centerpulls are the best
> 2.  It looked like I could get a tiny bit more clearance for 35 or even
> 38mm tires without fenders, and could run Jack Browns with fenders more
> easily
> 3.  I wanted to run a front rack for a handlebar bag with no P-clamps
>
> So I bought the high end Dia Compe 610s.  LINK
> .
> I also bought the really cute front rack that you can get.  LINK2
> .
> I splurged and bought Paul Funky Monkey hangers for front and back.
>
> I'd give the experiment a "B" grade.  The brakes work.  They even work
> well.  The initial setup was a little bit goofy.  They came with standard
> road cartridge brakepads, and the geometry of the system expects a lot
> wider rim than the Open Pros I was using.  The initial setup looked
> horrible for that reason, like everything was folded in on itself.  I
> couldn't stand the look, so I switched out to the metal holders you get
> with CR720 cantilevers.  Those allow you to run huge spacers on the inboard
> side to square up the arms relative to my skinny rims.  That looked a lot
> better and functioned a lot better.  That was my only significant setup
> issue.  I did completely disassemble both brake calipers and lube them up.
> They were bone dry everywhere.
>
> I did seem to get some more clearance.  I have run the bike with true 35mm
> Paselas.
>
> The tiny little rack is quite wimpy.  Supporting my handlebar bag (with a
> Berthoud Decaleur) the rack started to noticeably sag after some bumpy
> trail riding.  The tab on the back is flimsy and bent.  I gave the rack a
> lift with one hand and it bent back.  It's wimpy.  I don't really use the
> rack at all anymore, but it is still installed.  I usually go without a
> handlebar bag, but sometimes run my BOXY
>  bag, and might go all the
> way back to my F15 setup.
>
> In the meanwhile, I also did a restoration on a 1970s bike with Dia Compe
> centerpulls, and those brakes blow me away with how powerful they are.  So,
> I like the centerpull idea.
>
>
> On Monday, September 1, 2014 2:44:30 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Bill,  a lot depends on what size tires you are using.  I converted my
>> Ram from Ultegra side pulls to Paul's Racer Ms and was very happy with the
>> outcome.  Setup and maintenance is a similar amount of effort, Paul's get a
>> slight nod for power and modulation, but a big plus for fender clearance.
>> I have studded Racers on the Tandem.  They work well and seem to require
>> little attention, but they are limited to about a 38 mm tire, unless it is
>> deflated.  And they have only 55 mm of internal space specced for a fender,
>> although I have gotten them to work with 60 mm VO fenders.
>>
>> You'll get lots of subjective feedback but Paul's CPs have beefier arms
>> which have to be more rigid than a side pull and the brakes will last for
>> ever.  Paul sells pivots and springs independently so it is easy to rebuild
>> a brake.
>>
>> My favorite brake, hands down, is Paul's Neo Retros.  They excel in every
>> way.  About the only negative I can think of is that like all cantis they
>> get dirty.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> *THAT* was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about
>>> to make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results
>>> are.  Thank you thank you.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 4:25:24 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:

 On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For
> example, I've seen many A Homer

Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for that reply Michael.  As you can see, though, I made that switch 
almost a year ago.  The post of mine you replied to is dated 10/9/2013.  :-)

I guess coming in on a year does allow me to give an update.  The backstory 
is that this is my road bike.  A Black Mountain Cycles, which is 
functionally similar to a Roadeo.  It takes 700c wheels 130mm rear spacing 
and Tektro 539 brakes.  I had it built with 539s and got the itch to try 
centerpulls.  Motivators included:

1.  Jan Heine goes on and on how centerpulls are the best
2.  It looked like I could get a tiny bit more clearance for 35 or even 
38mm tires without fenders, and could run Jack Browns with fenders more 
easily
3.  I wanted to run a front rack for a handlebar bag with no P-clamps

So I bought the high end Dia Compe 610s.  LINK 
.
 
 I also bought the really cute front rack that you can get.  LINK2 
.  I 
splurged and bought Paul Funky Monkey hangers for front and back.  

I'd give the experiment a "B" grade.  The brakes work.  They even work 
well.  The initial setup was a little bit goofy.  They came with standard 
road cartridge brakepads, and the geometry of the system expects a lot 
wider rim than the Open Pros I was using.  The initial setup looked 
horrible for that reason, like everything was folded in on itself.  I 
couldn't stand the look, so I switched out to the metal holders you get 
with CR720 cantilevers.  Those allow you to run huge spacers on the inboard 
side to square up the arms relative to my skinny rims.  That looked a lot 
better and functioned a lot better.  That was my only significant setup 
issue.  I did completely disassemble both brake calipers and lube them up. 
 They were bone dry everywhere.  

I did seem to get some more clearance.  I have run the bike with true 35mm 
Paselas.  

The tiny little rack is quite wimpy.  Supporting my handlebar bag (with a 
Berthoud Decaleur) the rack started to noticeably sag after some bumpy 
trail riding.  The tab on the back is flimsy and bent.  I gave the rack a 
lift with one hand and it bent back.  It's wimpy.  I don't really use the 
rack at all anymore, but it is still installed.  I usually go without a 
handlebar bag, but sometimes run my BOXY 
 bag, and might go all the way 
back to my F15 setup.  

In the meanwhile, I also did a restoration on a 1970s bike with Dia Compe 
centerpulls, and those brakes blow me away with how powerful they are.  So, 
I like the centerpull idea.  

On Monday, September 1, 2014 2:44:30 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Bill,  a lot depends on what size tires you are using.  I converted my Ram 
> from Ultegra side pulls to Paul's Racer Ms and was very happy with the 
> outcome.  Setup and maintenance is a similar amount of effort, Paul's get a 
> slight nod for power and modulation, but a big plus for fender clearance. 
>  I have studded Racers on the Tandem.  They work well and seem to require 
> little attention, but they are limited to about a 38 mm tire, unless it is 
> deflated.  And they have only 55 mm of internal space specced for a fender, 
> although I have gotten them to work with 60 mm VO fenders. 
>
> You'll get lots of subjective feedback but Paul's CPs have beefier arms 
> which have to be more rigid than a side pull and the brakes will last for 
> ever.  Paul sells pivots and springs independently so it is easy to rebuild 
> a brake.
>
> My favorite brake, hands down, is Paul's Neo Retros.  They excel in every 
> way.  About the only negative I can think of is that like all cantis they 
> get dirty.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> *THAT* was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about 
>> to make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results 
>> are.  Thank you thank you.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 4:25:24 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
 What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For 
 example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've 
 seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear 
 somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers 
 and 
 the result was ".  

> jim m
> wc ca 
>

>>> I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls 
>>> to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already 
>>> had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 
>>> 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the 
>>> pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with 
>>> all 

Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Johan Larsson]

On Monday, September 1, 2014 3:55:31 AM UTC+2, BSWP wrote:
>
> Thanks, all, especially for the links to beautiful frames. 
>
> I'm deducing that 42mm tires will fit past the pads on Paul Racers. Anyone 
> run wider tires than that with those brakes? They're probably not a first 
> choice for mountain bike setups... 38 is pretty wide for me, but I could 
> consider 42-45 for some situations.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>

I thought you already had a clear answer? 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/DJ2b7CzKL3g/p4PqYPvgRWgJ 

"danmc  
 Aug 31 
  I know that a 42 Hetre won't clear. I'll throw a 38 and a 34-ish tire in 
to check next week. Bike is in the shop right now getting the steerer tube 
cut. 

Dan
"

Johan Larsson,
Sweden


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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Michael Hechmer]

Bill,  a lot depends on what size tires you are using.  I converted my Ram 
from Ultegra side pulls to Paul's Racer Ms and was very happy with the 
outcome.  Setup and maintenance is a similar amount of effort, Paul's get a 
slight nod for power and modulation, but a big plus for fender clearance. 
 I have studded Racers on the Tandem.  They work well and seem to require 
little attention, but they are limited to about a 38 mm tire, unless it is 
deflated.  And they have only 55 mm of internal space specced for a fender, 
although I have gotten them to work with 60 mm VO fenders. 

You'll get lots of subjective feedback but Paul's CPs have beefier arms 
which have to be more rigid than a side pull and the brakes will last for 
ever.  Paul sells pivots and springs independently so it is easy to rebuild 
a brake.

My favorite brake, hands down, is Paul's Neo Retros.  They excel in every 
way.  About the only negative I can think of is that like all cantis they 
get dirty.

Michael



On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> *THAT* was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about 
> to make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results 
> are.  Thank you thank you.  
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 4:25:24 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For 
>>> example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've 
>>> seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear 
>>> somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and 
>>> the result was ".  
>>>
 jim m
 wc ca 

>>>
>> I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls 
>> to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already 
>> had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 
>> 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the 
>> pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with 
>> all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open 
>> wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever 
>> used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything 
>> they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to 
>> get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially 
>> cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on 
>> performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

And while poring over options for Paul Racers, I stumbled across an 
incredibly beautiful and carefully-worked fork crown that integrated mounts 
for Racers, built by Jordan Hufnagel, in 2010. Wow! Have a look:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hufnagelcycles/5230919936/

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Johan Larsson]

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:18:19 PM UTC+2, Matthew J wrote:
>
> This guy had to narrow the fenders under Paul Racers but those appear to 
> be Hetres.  
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/32306142@N07/4669102184/in/faves-edscoble/


That looks like a narrower tire than the Hetre.

Johan Larsson,
Sweden


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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

Thanks, all, especially for the links to beautiful frames. 

I'm deducing that 42mm tires will fit past the pads on Paul Racers. Anyone 
run wider tires than that with those brakes? They're probably not a first 
choice for mountain bike setups... 38 is pretty wide for me, but I could 
consider 42-45 for some situations.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

Bottom line is you probably need to go braze on custom to get them to work.

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 7:27:22 PM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Ahh.  Small world.  
>
> In any event, I know I've seen Paul Racers with Hetres online.  Here is 
> the correct bike: 
> http://ruedatropical.com/2009/12/terraferma-randonneur-ready-for-paint/
>
> On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:59:36 PM UTC-5, rob markwardt wrote:
>>
>> Hey that looks familiar ...it's my bike!  Pics are from previous owner. 
>> Tires are 700c and there is plenty of clearance for fenders under the 
>> brakes. The cut he was referring to is down by the chain stays 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

Ahh.  Small world.  

In any event, I know I've seen Paul Racers with Hetres online.  Here is the 
correct 
bike: http://ruedatropical.com/2009/12/terraferma-randonneur-ready-for-paint/

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:59:36 PM UTC-5, rob markwardt wrote:
>
> Hey that looks familiar ...it's my bike!  Pics are from previous owner. 
> Tires are 700c and there is plenty of clearance for fenders under the 
> brakes. The cut he was referring to is down by the chain stays 

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[rob markwardt]

Hey that looks familiar ...it's my bike!  Pics are from previous owner. Tires 
are 700c and there is plenty of clearance for fenders under the brakes. The cut 
he was referring to is down by the chain stays 

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

This guy had to narrow the fenders under Paul Racers but those appear to be 
Hetres.  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32306142@N07/4669102184/in/faves-edscoble/

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[rob markwardt]

I've got 32s on my bike with Paul braze-ons and there is probably another 
5mm of space...might fit 38s.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:17:21 AM UTC-7, BSWP wrote:
>
> I'm considering Racer braze-on long reach brakes on a new frame... can 
> anyone else with experience of these brakes comment on maximum tire width 
> that will easily slip past the brake pads, when the straddle cable is 
> removed, so wheels can be removed/installed without deflating tires? Thanks.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:58:04 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:
>>
>> those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best 
>> rim brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is 
>> some tire size max, about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads. 
>>  They are a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. 
>> I've got Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the 
>> modulation is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not 
>> even close to the brazed on version.
>>
>> ~mike
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Dan McNamara]

I know that a 42 Hetre won't clear. I'll throw a 38 and a 34-ish tire in to 
check next week. Bike is in the shop right now getting the steerer tube cut. 

Dan

> On Aug 30, 2014, at 9:17 AM, BSWP  wrote:
> 
> I'm considering Racer braze-on long reach brakes on a new frame... can anyone 
> else with experience of these brakes comment on maximum tire width that will 
> easily slip past the brake pads, when the straddle cable is removed, so 
> wheels can be removed/installed without deflating tires? Thanks.
> 
> - Andrew, Berkeley
> 
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:58:04 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:
>> those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best rim 
>> brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is some 
>> tire size max, about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads.  They are 
>> a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. I've got 
>> Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the modulation 
>> is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not even close 
>> to the brazed on version.
>> 
>> ~mike
> 
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[BSWP]

I'm considering Racer braze-on long reach brakes on a new frame... can 
anyone else with experience of these brakes comment on maximum tire width 
that will easily slip past the brake pads, when the straddle cable is 
removed, so wheels can be removed/installed without deflating tires? Thanks.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:58:04 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:
>
> those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best 
> rim brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is 
> some tire size max, about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads. 
>  They are a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. 
> I've got Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the 
> modulation is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not 
> even close to the brazed on version.
>
> ~mike
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

I particularly like the super integrated result when your frame builder 
uses Paul-specific posts, so there is one fewer layer of tolerance between 
bushing sleeves.  That may very well be the direction I go, eventually

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:10:40 PM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:
>
> No experience with bolt on center pulls.  If you ever go custom, I highly 
> recommend considering braze on center pulls.  I've had bikes with braze on 
> Mafac Raids and Paul Racers and currently have a bike with Paul Racer Ms. 
>  All three stopped with alacrity, had wide range modulation, and were easy 
> to maintain.  
>
> Would not say braze on center pulls are better than dual pivot side pulls 
> or mini-vees, both of which I've found to do an excellent job.  Braze on 
> center pulls do have a very integrated appearance and serve well.
>
> On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:18:04 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Small update.  I ended up with the wrong size rear funky monkey.  "Of 
>> course it's 28.6mm, just like the front derailer clamp!"  Nope.  Externally 
>> butted Seat Tube, means I needed 30.0mm.  Bummer.  
>>
>> Anyway I did get the front set up.  I didn't ride around much with only a 
>> front brake, but it seems pretty good.  I love the clearance.  I am easily 
>> able to QR the brake to get the wheel out.  Also, I now have a front rack. 
>>  All good points.  
>>
>> BUT..I hate how the arms tilt inward from the pivots.  The brake pads 
>> cannot hit flush on the brake track.  BOO!  This means I need a wider rim. 
>>  I have 19mm wide Mavic Open Pros now, but things would be a lot more 
>> "squared-up" with a 23 or 24mm rim.  The way I prefer wide tires, this 
>> needed to happen anyway.  Time to consider the Velocity A23 in 700c or the 
>> Pacenti SL23 in 700c.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:55:29 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm with all of you:  "I've used all 
>>> kinds and they all work fine.  None are dramatically better or worse".  At 
>>> least for everything but centerpulls.  I've never done a nice centerpull 
>>> setup.  I understand being forced into using cheapie centerpulls for 
>>> various reasons.  What I was curiously looking for was something more 
>>> specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver 
>>> Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls. 
>>>  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and 
>>> installed Paul Racers and the result was ".  Or, I've seen many Roadeos 
>>> with Tektro 539s, and a few with Paul Racer M.  I wanted to see if anybody 
>>> specifically swapped from dual pivot to a quality centerpull and thought it 
>>> changed anything.  That's what I'm doing, and I'll certainly share what my 
>>> observations are.  
>>>
>>> Anyway, I did it partially out of curiosity about centerpulls.  I also 
>>> did it because I wanted a cleanly installed small front rack.  I hated 
>>> running P-clamps with a Marks rack on this bike.  I also did it because I 
>>> think it will open up the fender area.  I also did it because I was/am 
>>> inspired by Sumehra's custom mixte with braze on centerpull brakes.  If I 
>>> love centerpulls, then braze on centerpulls on a custom might make it onto 
>>> my bucket list.  
>>>
>>> 1.  If braking is a wash, and I gain the use of a proper handlebar bag, 
>>> and improve fender clearance, that's a big win
>>> 2.  If braking performance is better, and the rack breaks under my 
>>> handlebar bag, and fender clearance is worse, then I won't know what to do
>>> 3.  If braking performance is worse, and the rack breaks, then I'll 
>>> whine like a baby
>>>
>>> I'm investing a lot in making this setup really as nice as I can.  Paul 
>>> Funky Monkey hangers front and rear are rock solid.  These $170 Gran Compe 
>>> brakes are beefy CNC, not unlike Pauls.  The pads come with salmon inserts 
>>> and accept nice koolstop replacement inserts.  Good cables and housing, 
>>> nice rims.  Everything should work great.  
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:23:31 PM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:


 On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
> cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
> than any of the others. 
>

 I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
 situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
 needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than 
 a 
 good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
 DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.

 jim m
 wc ca 

>>>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Matthew J]

No experience with bolt on center pulls.  If you ever go custom, I highly 
recommend considering braze on center pulls.  I've had bikes with braze on 
Mafac Raids and Paul Racers and currently have a bike with Paul Racer Ms. 
 All three stopped with alacrity, had wide range modulation, and were easy 
to maintain.  

Would not say braze on center pulls are better than dual pivot side pulls 
or mini-vees, both of which I've found to do an excellent job.  Braze on 
center pulls do have a very integrated appearance and serve well.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:18:04 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Small update.  I ended up with the wrong size rear funky monkey.  "Of 
> course it's 28.6mm, just like the front derailer clamp!"  Nope.  Externally 
> butted Seat Tube, means I needed 30.0mm.  Bummer.  
>
> Anyway I did get the front set up.  I didn't ride around much with only a 
> front brake, but it seems pretty good.  I love the clearance.  I am easily 
> able to QR the brake to get the wheel out.  Also, I now have a front rack. 
>  All good points.  
>
> BUT..I hate how the arms tilt inward from the pivots.  The brake pads 
> cannot hit flush on the brake track.  BOO!  This means I need a wider rim. 
>  I have 19mm wide Mavic Open Pros now, but things would be a lot more 
> "squared-up" with a 23 or 24mm rim.  The way I prefer wide tires, this 
> needed to happen anyway.  Time to consider the Velocity A23 in 700c or the 
> Pacenti SL23 in 700c.  
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:55:29 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm with all of you:  "I've used all 
>> kinds and they all work fine.  None are dramatically better or worse".  At 
>> least for everything but centerpulls.  I've never done a nice centerpull 
>> setup.  I understand being forced into using cheapie centerpulls for 
>> various reasons.  What I was curiously looking for was something more 
>> specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver 
>> Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls. 
>>  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and 
>> installed Paul Racers and the result was ".  Or, I've seen many Roadeos 
>> with Tektro 539s, and a few with Paul Racer M.  I wanted to see if anybody 
>> specifically swapped from dual pivot to a quality centerpull and thought it 
>> changed anything.  That's what I'm doing, and I'll certainly share what my 
>> observations are.  
>>
>> Anyway, I did it partially out of curiosity about centerpulls.  I also 
>> did it because I wanted a cleanly installed small front rack.  I hated 
>> running P-clamps with a Marks rack on this bike.  I also did it because I 
>> think it will open up the fender area.  I also did it because I was/am 
>> inspired by Sumehra's custom mixte with braze on centerpull brakes.  If I 
>> love centerpulls, then braze on centerpulls on a custom might make it onto 
>> my bucket list.  
>>
>> 1.  If braking is a wash, and I gain the use of a proper handlebar bag, 
>> and improve fender clearance, that's a big win
>> 2.  If braking performance is better, and the rack breaks under my 
>> handlebar bag, and fender clearance is worse, then I won't know what to do
>> 3.  If braking performance is worse, and the rack breaks, then I'll whine 
>> like a baby
>>
>> I'm investing a lot in making this setup really as nice as I can.  Paul 
>> Funky Monkey hangers front and rear are rock solid.  These $170 Gran Compe 
>> brakes are beefy CNC, not unlike Pauls.  The pads come with salmon inserts 
>> and accept nice koolstop replacement inserts.  Good cables and housing, 
>> nice rims.  Everything should work great.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:23:31 PM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
 cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
 than any of the others. 

>>>
>>> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
>>> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
>>> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
>>> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
>>> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.
>>>
>>> jim m
>>> wc ca 
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Small update.  I ended up with the wrong size rear funky monkey.  "Of 
course it's 28.6mm, just like the front derailer clamp!"  Nope.  Externally 
butted Seat Tube, means I needed 30.0mm.  Bummer.  

Anyway I did get the front set up.  I didn't ride around much with only a 
front brake, but it seems pretty good.  I love the clearance.  I am easily 
able to QR the brake to get the wheel out.  Also, I now have a front rack. 
 All good points.  

BUT..I hate how the arms tilt inward from the pivots.  The brake pads 
cannot hit flush on the brake track.  BOO!  This means I need a wider rim. 
 I have 19mm wide Mavic Open Pros now, but things would be a lot more 
"squared-up" with a 23 or 24mm rim.  The way I prefer wide tires, this 
needed to happen anyway.  Time to consider the Velocity A23 in 700c or the 
Pacenti SL23 in 700c.  

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:55:29 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm with all of you:  "I've used all 
> kinds and they all work fine.  None are dramatically better or worse".  At 
> least for everything but centerpulls.  I've never done a nice centerpull 
> setup.  I understand being forced into using cheapie centerpulls for 
> various reasons.  What I was curiously looking for was something more 
> specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver 
> Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls. 
>  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and 
> installed Paul Racers and the result was ".  Or, I've seen many Roadeos 
> with Tektro 539s, and a few with Paul Racer M.  I wanted to see if anybody 
> specifically swapped from dual pivot to a quality centerpull and thought it 
> changed anything.  That's what I'm doing, and I'll certainly share what my 
> observations are.  
>
> Anyway, I did it partially out of curiosity about centerpulls.  I also did 
> it because I wanted a cleanly installed small front rack.  I hated running 
> P-clamps with a Marks rack on this bike.  I also did it because I think it 
> will open up the fender area.  I also did it because I was/am inspired by 
> Sumehra's custom mixte with braze on centerpull brakes.  If I love 
> centerpulls, then braze on centerpulls on a custom might make it onto my 
> bucket list.  
>
> 1.  If braking is a wash, and I gain the use of a proper handlebar bag, 
> and improve fender clearance, that's a big win
> 2.  If braking performance is better, and the rack breaks under my 
> handlebar bag, and fender clearance is worse, then I won't know what to do
> 3.  If braking performance is worse, and the rack breaks, then I'll whine 
> like a baby
>
> I'm investing a lot in making this setup really as nice as I can.  Paul 
> Funky Monkey hangers front and rear are rock solid.  These $170 Gran Compe 
> brakes are beefy CNC, not unlike Pauls.  The pads come with salmon inserts 
> and accept nice koolstop replacement inserts.  Good cables and housing, 
> nice rims.  Everything should work great.  
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:23:31 PM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
>>> cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
>>> than any of the others. 
>>>
>>
>> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
>> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
>> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
>> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
>> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.
>>
>> jim m
>> wc ca 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[rob markwardt]

I had Silvers and non-aero levers on my Bleriot when I first got it.  The 
braking was so bad  it was scaryI changed BOTH levers and brakes. Went 
to the aero Cane Creek/Tektro levers and Dia-Compe center-pulls and they've 
been on the bike the last six years.  As a science teacher I know my 
investigation sucks...change one variable!...however, I now have 
centerpulls on 4 bikes and the levers on 3 and I'm quite happy. To add to 
the muck...my best stopping bike is my Riv custom with newish Shimano 105 
sidepulls.  

Rob "all my bikes stop" Markwardt 

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:40:47 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> That's enough variety of reviews to tell me that I might like centerpulls 
> better and I might not.  Classic YMMV situation.  Haha.  Maybe I'll get it 
> done this weekend.  
>
> I overhauled these Gran Compe 610s to familiarize myself with all the 
> pieces, lube all the pivots, bushings and threads.  They were bone dry 
> everywhere (tsk tsk).  My Paul Funky Monkey hangers just arrived in the 
> mail, so now it's full speed ahead.  
>
> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:59:32 AM UTC-7, Perry wrote:
>>
>> jim wrote: 
>> >>> 
>> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
>> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
>> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
>> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
>> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power. 
>> <<< 
>>
>> Me three. 
>>
>> • Perry 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

That's enough variety of reviews to tell me that I might like centerpulls 
better and I might not.  Classic YMMV situation.  Haha.  Maybe I'll get it 
done this weekend.  

I overhauled these Gran Compe 610s to familiarize myself with all the 
pieces, lube all the pivots, bushings and threads.  They were bone dry 
everywhere (tsk tsk).  My Paul Funky Monkey hangers just arrived in the 
mail, so now it's full speed ahead.  

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:59:32 AM UTC-7, Perry wrote:
>
> jim wrote: 
> >>> 
> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power. 
> <<< 
>
> Me three. 
>
> • Perry 
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Perry]

jim wrote:
>>>
I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific situations 
(like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or needing a nutted 
front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a good single or dual 
pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and DiaCompe, and they all 
seem about the same for stopping power.
<<<

Me three.

• Perry

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Michael]

Have used both Racers and Tektro R559 brakes.

Paul's:
 were hard to get centered for me. So many points of adjustment possible on 
them. Hard to get cables attached. I was new to center pulls though. Got easier 
each time I messed with them. They were great with salmon pads.

R559's:
 install and set up wy easier for me.  I like them much better. More user 
friendly for an un-mechanic like me.

Both stop  and feel just as good to my unrefined hands.
I am not a brake connoisseur. So I don't know from modulation.
Not sure which (Yokozuna or Koolstop salmon pads) come from the better slopes 
of the rubber plantations. 

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Mike Schiller]

those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best rim 
brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is some 
tire size max,about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads.  They are 
a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. I've got 
Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the 
modulation is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not 
even close to the brazed on version.

~mike

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Brian Campbell]

+1. I replaced a set of Paul Racers for a set of Silver sidepulls. Glad I 
did. 

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:25:24 PM UTC-4, jinxed wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For 
>> example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've 
>> seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear 
>> somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and 
>> the result was ".  
>>
>>> jim m
>>> wc ca 
>>>
>>
> I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls 
> to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already 
> had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 
> 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the 
> pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with 
> all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open 
> wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever 
> used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything 
> they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to 
> get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially 
> cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on 
> performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[justinaugust]

Interestingly I had the exact opposite experience. Paul Racers stop me much 
better than Silvers. 


-J

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

*THAT* was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about to 
make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results 
are.  Thank you thank you.  

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 4:25:24 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For 
>> example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've 
>> seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear 
>> somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and 
>> the result was ".  
>>
>>> jim m
>>> wc ca 
>>>
>>
> I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls 
> to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already 
> had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 
> 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the 
> pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with 
> all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open 
> wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever 
> used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything 
> they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to 
> get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially 
> cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on 
> performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[jinxed]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For 
> example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've 
> seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear 
> somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and 
> the result was ".  
>
>> jim m
>> wc ca 
>>
>
I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls to 
Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already 
had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 
42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the 
pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with 
all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open 
wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever 
used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything 
they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to 
get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially 
cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on 
performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

Linear pulls are certainly powerful and easy to set up, at least, as long
as they are not the cheap ones, which are horrible to set up since the
cheap springs mean that they never stay put; I've seen at least on pair, on
a WalMart "bike", that literally could not be adjusted properly -- the
springs could not hold enough tension -- they were plastic, not elastic.
But IME they don't modulate as well as the best cantilevers or side or
center pulls, also properly set up. The best brakes in the world, bar none
-- and I've used all -- were the IRD cantis on the Sam HIll, set up by Riv.
Powerful, felt just right, and modulated better than anything else I've
used. OTOH, I prefer disks for off road use, as much to spare my rims as
for any other reason -- an issue if you use expensive, boutique rims as I
do.

The worst brakes, OTOH, were also cantis, and I don't know why they were so
bad: Mafac cantis, both the single and the tandem (longer arms) version.
Useless with salmon pads, modern levers, good hangars, and after both I and
a shop played around with straddles and pad adjustment. Well, the front
road BB7 was just as bad.


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:34 PM, RJM  wrote:

> I honestly think linear pulls or cantilever are the best brakes out
> there...
>
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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm with all of you:  "I've used all kinds 
and they all work fine.  None are dramatically better or worse".  At least 
for everything but centerpulls.  I've never done a nice centerpull setup. 
 I understand being forced into using cheapie centerpulls for various 
reasons.  What I was curiously looking for was something more specific. 
 For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and 
I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to 
hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul 
Racers and the result was ".  Or, I've seen many Roadeos with Tektro 
539s, and a few with Paul Racer M.  I wanted to see if anybody specifically 
swapped from dual pivot to a quality centerpull and thought it changed 
anything.  That's what I'm doing, and I'll certainly share what my 
observations are.  

Anyway, I did it partially out of curiosity about centerpulls.  I also did 
it because I wanted a cleanly installed small front rack.  I hated running 
P-clamps with a Marks rack on this bike.  I also did it because I think it 
will open up the fender area.  I also did it because I was/am inspired by 
Sumehra's custom mixte with braze on centerpull brakes.  If I love 
centerpulls, then braze on centerpulls on a custom might make it onto my 
bucket list.  

1.  If braking is a wash, and I gain the use of a proper handlebar bag, and 
improve fender clearance, that's a big win
2.  If braking performance is better, and the rack breaks under my 
handlebar bag, and fender clearance is worse, then I won't know what to do
3.  If braking performance is worse, and the rack breaks, then I'll whine 
like a baby

I'm investing a lot in making this setup really as nice as I can.  Paul 
Funky Monkey hangers front and rear are rock solid.  These $170 Gran Compe 
brakes are beefy CNC, not unlike Pauls.  The pads come with salmon inserts 
and accept nice koolstop replacement inserts.  Good cables and housing, 
nice rims.  Everything should work great.  

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 1:23:31 PM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
>> cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
>> than any of the others. 
>>
>
> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.
>
> jim m
> wc ca 
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[RJM]

I honestly think linear pulls or cantilever are the best brakes out 
there...
On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 3:23:31 PM UTC-5, Jim M. wrote: 
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: 
>>
>> I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
>> cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
>> than any of the others. 
>>
>
> I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific 
> situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or 
> needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a 
> good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and 
> DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.
>
> jim m
> wc ca 
>

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Jim M.]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention 
> cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, 
> than any of the others. 
>

I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific situations 
(like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or needing a nutted 
front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a good single or 
dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and DiaCompe, and 
they all seem about the same for stopping power.

jim m
wc ca 

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

While I agree this rack is a TA copy, let me be clear.  I bought it from 
VO, but it's not a VO rack.  It is the Dia Compe Gran Compe ENE front rack. 
 When you Patrick were playing around with your front rack in 2011, a few 
listers here posted their pictures of this Grand Compe ENE rack broken at 
the tangs.  The thread is there for all to see in the archives.  The most 
efficient keyword to search on is the classic Patrick Mooresque: "Innit", 
as in "Innit the cutest little rack".  I'm going to use this rack to 
support my Loyal Designs Handlebar bag, with a decaleur.  




 

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Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Patrick Moore]

I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention
cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse,
than any of the others. No magic, IME. In fact, I found the old Dura Aces
(probably re-inscribed Tourneys) better than the Mafac Racers, but neither
as powerful as a good modern Nashbar single pivot; all with salmon pads. (I
had been running a Dura Ace cp on the front of the old Motobecane grocery
fixie, as the single brake, but I found that, with heavy loads and a steep
hill, the DA -- pulled by a modern Shimano aero lever -- would retard to a
point in the lever travel and then retard no further despite pulling
harder. The replacement dual pivot did retard more as you pulled further on
the lever.) Of course, on the one hand, the relative merits of the CPs
might have been due to hangars and housing; OTOH, the Nashbar SP stopped
better with the same housing and required no hangar.

I jumped on the front rack wagon for a brief while with an old TA rack of
which the VO is probably a copy. I had one on my errand Riv for a while to
supplement a rear rack, but it didn't really do me any good, since it was
big enough only to support a rack bag that was about the size of a Banana
Bag, and I preferred to have my front end unencumbered unless the
encumbrance could carry a more worthwhile load, whereas the rear rack
carried all that I needed beyond the large saddle wedge.

BTW, I have the early Ruthworks small bag-for small front rack available
for sale or trade if anyone is interested.


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> I'm going to start playing around a little bit with centerpull brakes on
> at least one of my caliper brake equipped bikes.  I bought a pair of the
> snazzy Gran Compe 610s and the tiny optional front rack from Velo Orange.
>  They will be replacing Tektro R539 on my "budget Roadeo".
>
> Riv Content:  I am no longer capable of taking a bike seriously if it
> doesn't have a front rack on it, thanks to Riv.  I'm obsessed with getting
> more clearance for fenders and chubby tires for safety, thanks to Riv.
>
> Anyway, can anyone share about changing straight from modern dual pivot
> caliper brakes to centerpulls and liking them better?  I'm interested to
> hear about it.
>
> FYI, that little rack is TINY.  Check it out next to the Nitto Mini Front:
>
>
> 
>
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