Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Lungimsam]

Based on what I have read about tires, there are different testors who have 
come out with their tire testing results. Whether the results are reliable and 
valid is contested by many. Each would probably say their tesults are reliable 
and valid, and give convincing arguments. So, at this point, you have to do the 
reading and then decide who is most convincing to you, and then try those 
tires. That is sbout as good as it gets as of 3/2016 as far as I can tell.

Therefore, probably the best thing to do is to decide what features in a tire 
you are looking for and then ask for recommendations in a new post on this 
forum. There are many forum members who are tire enthusiasts who could give 
recommendations, being as they have already run the gamut of tire trial and 
error, trying to find the best of the best.

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

I'll report for my daughter, also.  I put Jack Brown greens on her upright 
and she didn't like anything about them (she never thought they were fast 
enough, though her nature is fast), but I have to think the 60 tpi made a 
difference.  
She's ridden many miles on three sizes of Challenge on two different bikes 
and loved them.  Right now her go-fast has Veloflex, which only come in 
25mm, but are essentially Open Paves made in Italy (and 20% cheaper).  
Also her upright now has Soma Supple Vitesse in 42mm, but hasn't ridden 
them enough to report.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

if you run the pressures appropriately low, Challenge does a very good job 
of adding limited puncture resistance to fast cozy tires.  I've put many 
thousand miles on them on 3 bikes.  Their belts don't prevent flats, they 
just slow them down - it takes a couple of weeks for the glass shards to 
get through to the tube - but that gets you home.  And guess what?  They 
are 260 tpi high performance tires.  
For that matter, I've only had one flat on a Vittoria Open Pave (also a 
Kevlar belt), and it was a big cut in the tread.  
If I was lumping tires together, I would put Challenge (and Vittoria) open 
tubulars and Compass ELs on the same end of the spectrum.  

Marathons are very fast tires, but you can't call them cozy.  Panaracers to 
me fall in between, mostly because they're lightweight, but they have to 
run high pressures to perform well.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

Short of a comprehensive testing and measuring project, the only way to
compare stiff to suppler to supplest is to try a lot of them. Come to think
of it, without actual riding experience, even accurate numbers wouldn't
mean much.

But others posted their continuums earlier in the thread, no?



On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:46 PM, ian m  wrote:

> I appreciate that the TPI factor was addressed. I wonder who is making
> tires with multiple layers of casing and slathering them with rubber and
> puncture protection and marketing them as 300+TPI high-performance tires?
>
> Everything else is just reinforcing the idea of supple Compass tires vs.
> all other tires. I'm glad people like those tires, I really am, but I still
> wish sense could be made of the varying continuum between those and cheap
> heavy duty wire bead tires, because I know there are variables in all those
> tires, I know they ride differently, and knowing the qualitative
> differences in how they ride is actually what this thread was supposed to
> be about: how to measure the suppleness of tires that are not "THE supple
> tires".
>
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**
**
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*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

sorry to bring up OT, but I'm reminded of a favorite Car and Driver 
editorial - speed v. velocity.  100 mph in an exotic GT is velocity.  100 
mph in a bugeye Sprite is Speed.  

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 6:44:43 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>
> Funny how the sensation of being on the knife's edge of performance on a 
> bike, with increased vibration and increased feel of the road surface is 
> processed as "faster" in the brain. 
>
> Sensory inputs that release the fight or flight substances in the brain 
> must be at play. Scientific interpretation of that is tough. A roller 
> coaster purposely plays with those, a take off in an airliner is a much 
> greater demonstration of physics but feels much less impressive. 
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 3:04:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it 
>> certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given 
>> cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of 
>> speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi 
>> Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they *don't* vibrate.
>>
>> [Close parenthesis.]
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:
>>
>>> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the 
>>> desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two 
>>> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration 
>>> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know 
>>> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.  
>>> -- 
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>>

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Re: OT: Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

I end up pacing with and meeting a lot of guys who are dialed into strava, 
measure their performance with it every ride, and shoot to improve that 
performance -  even log-in and compare specific routes with other 
friends,.  More power to them, and it's always good to meet other riders on 
the trail.  My friend, also, who has suffered a couple of bouts of 
tachycardia, instruments himself and always rides against those readings, 
and he should.  One time I was with him - I think it was brought on by 
dehydration, but I'm not his doctor and don't want to be.  

My friend also navigates with his GPS when we're paddling coastal 
estuaries.  My phone will do that, too, but I'm the mechanical watch guy, 
navigate with charts, chart compass, deck compass, and Steiner glasses with 
compass - to me it goes with the terrain.  

When I ride, the goal is calories, and I'd like to get 50 to 100 miles 
worth/week.  I'm happy with my personal watt meter, feeling of success in 
my riding muscles, and occasionally reading the mechanical watch to measure 
my performance, but otherwise, have no specific goals.  Cycling is the only 
way I know to burn an extra day's calories and have fun doing it.  

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 8:44:37 PM UTC-5, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> strava's nice for tracking times.  Looking at strava's graph showing a 
> couple of years on the same route I can pick out which bike I was riding 
>  well enough to put money on it.  Different tires, not quite...
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[ascpgh]

Funny how the sensation of being on the knife's edge of performance on a 
bike, with increased vibration and increased feel of the road surface is 
processed as "faster" in the brain. 

Sensory inputs that release the fight or flight substances in the brain 
must be at play. Scientific interpretation of that is tough. A roller 
coaster purposely plays with those, a take off in an airliner is a much 
greater demonstration of physics but feels much less impressive. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 3:04:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it 
> certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given 
> cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of 
> speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi 
> Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they *don't* vibrate.
>
> [Close parenthesis.]
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc  > wrote:
>
>> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the 
>> desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two 
>> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration 
>> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know 
>> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.  
>> -- 
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

thanks Jan, in a way the casings thing is apples and oranges, in that, 
manufacturing vulcanized tires and hand-glued tires is apples and oranges. 
 The casings that Jan worked out with Panaracer are special, and Panaracer 
has jumped on it in several new lines of tires.  Since Jan brought up 
Challenge again, the Strada Biancas are noticeably quieter than Compass ELs 
(in 32mm or 38mm).  The energy producing that sound has to come from 
somewhere.  Still not a bad thing, again apples and oranges - I love my 
Barlows and will be buying more as I wear them out.  They are very fast and 
ridiculously comfortable.  Something else that is nice about the Barlows is 
the confidence that big footprint gives you when cornering.  

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 10:17:12 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Interesting tread... and I am glad so many listmembers enjoy their Compass 
> tires as much as we do. (We developed them for our own bikes, after all.)
>
> I'd like to clarify a few things about the TPI (threads per inch) of the 
> Compass tires. The Extralight models actually use the thinnest casing 
> fibers that Panaracer makes. If packed tightly and measured the "Italian 
> way", these would result in 360 TPI casings. However, by using the same 
> thin fibers, but weaving them a bit looser, you get an even suppler casing, 
> but of course, the TPI is lower. More on the subject is here:
>
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/tpi-and-tire-performance/
>
> There is a lot that goes into making supple tires, and like so many 
> things, it's hard to put that into a single number. It's like "How do you 
> make a great-riding frame?" In the end, you go by experience - if many 
> experienced riders tell you that a certain frame is great, it probably is. 
> The same applies to tires.
>
> As a final note, if you want to compare the performance of tires, you have 
> to do it on the same bike. With different bikes, small things like 
> aerodynamics (if your stem is just 20 mm lower, your wind resistance is 
> about 5% lower) or the frame flex characteristics of the frame (what we 
> call "planing") will affect the speeds you can achieve on the road, so even 
> if your measurements are accurate (you need a lot of repeats to reduce the 
> noise in the data), you may not be measuring tire performance. That said, 
> the Challenge tires mentioned by one poster are very nice, too, and in our 
> performance testing, were about equal to the standard Grand Bois/Compass 
> casings.
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Jan Heine]

Interesting tread... and I am glad so many listmembers enjoy their Compass 
tires as much as we do. (We developed them for our own bikes, after all.)

I'd like to clarify a few things about the TPI (threads per inch) of the 
Compass tires. The Extralight models actually use the thinnest casing 
fibers that Panaracer makes. If packed tightly and measured the "Italian 
way", these would result in 360 TPI casings. However, by using the same 
thin fibers, but weaving them a bit looser, you get an even suppler casing, 
but of course, the TPI is lower. More on the subject is here:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/tpi-and-tire-performance/

There is a lot that goes into making supple tires, and like so many things, 
it's hard to put that into a single number. It's like "How do you make a 
great-riding frame?" In the end, you go by experience - if many experienced 
riders tell you that a certain frame is great, it probably is. The same 
applies to tires.

As a final note, if you want to compare the performance of tires, you have 
to do it on the same bike. With different bikes, small things like 
aerodynamics (if your stem is just 20 mm lower, your wind resistance is 
about 5% lower) or the frame flex characteristics of the frame (what we 
call "planing") will affect the speeds you can achieve on the road, so even 
if your measurements are accurate (you need a lot of repeats to reduce the 
noise in the data), you may not be measuring tire performance. That said, 
the Challenge tires mentioned by one poster are very nice, too, and in our 
performance testing, were about equal to the standard Grand Bois/Compass 
casings.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

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Re: OT: Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Daniel D.]

strava's nice for tracking times.  Looking at strava's graph showing a 
couple of years on the same route I can pick out which bike I was riding 
 well enough to put money on it.  Different tires, not quite...

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 11:39:36 AM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> That's a good idea.  I should bail out early to ride my bike, because 
> otherwise I have no time to ride my bike, what with a new baby and trying 
> to pack up the house to move.
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Ron Mc  
> wrote:
>
>> another datapoint is making the same route and checking your watch.  I 
>> have a long commute, get to my office crazy early and leave when I want (or 
>> when the work allows).  But I also have close access to two really nice 
>> greenways from my office, so I frequently bring the bike in and bail out to 
>> ride.  I have a standard 31-mi route I normally make in 2 hours including 
>> water stops.  If I cut 10 minutes from that, I know I'm going faster.  But 
>> I can tell you for sure, Strada Biancas are faster than Barlow ELs, but not 
>> that much faster, and the comfort of the Barlows more than makes up for the 
>> difference.  
>>
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>
>
>
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[cyclotourist]

A drum test, but on irregular diamond plate surface rather than a smooth
drum.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 03/29/2016 04:21 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
>> Ohhh, now check this out!!
>>
>> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016
>>
>> Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure.
>> This is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 nearly-slick
>> tire, supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including compared to skinny road
>> tires). I need these on my Atlantis!
>>
>
>
> Another drum test.  It may be "quantified" but that doesn't necessarily
> mean it means anything.
>
>
>
>
>
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"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Bill Lindsay]

Ron Mc and Steve Palincsar are right that drum testing is only a small 
piece of the puzzle, but I will point out to those two that this is the 
first time (that I know of) where a wide, thinwalll, low pressure tire has 
measured FASTER on a drum than skinny, hard, high-pressure tires. 
 Normally, we're all used to seeing the drum-data tell us that skinny tires 
at 120psi are the lowest rolling resistance, and we've grown to be 
skeptical of those results, because of suspension losses when there is a 
real rider and bicycle involved.  We've learned that our wide, supple, low 
pressure tires are "slower" on the drum, but those losses are more than 
covered on the road because of a reduction of suspension losses.  This is a 
shocking result because this fat, low pressure, thin sidewall tire is 
actually FASTER on the drum.  Add to that the expected suspension loss 
benefits, and you've got a potential rocketship tire.  I just finished 
ordering a bunch of stuff from Chain Reaction, too.  Dangit!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA


On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:39:34 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 03/29/2016 04:21 PM, Mark Reimer wrote: 
> > Ohhh, now check this out!! 
> > 
> > 
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016 
> > 
> > Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure. 
> > This is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 
> > nearly-slick tire, supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including 
> > compared to skinny road tires). I need these on my Atlantis! 
>
>
> Another drum test.  It may be "quantified" but that doesn't necessarily 
> mean it means anything. 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[John Phillips]

Aside from the question of speed, I did notice the tires listed here

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016 


as having less resistance corresponded to the tires Riv listers enjoy more 
on the road / trail, for example the Thunder Burt tires.

And I see the Conti Race Kings with flat protection are not far behind the 
Thunder Burts.

John

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:21:17 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Ohhh, now check this out!!
>
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016
>
> Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure. This 
> is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 nearly-slick tire, 
> supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including compared to skinny road 
> tires). I need these on my Atlantis!
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Lungimsam  > wrote:
>
>> This is a fascinating subject. And I cannot comment on Ron's experience.
>>
>> Speaking from my own experience:
>> It is really hard for me to know if one bike is faster than another, or 
>> if a component makes it faster/slower. Maybe because of the engine and 
>> wind. Maybe my bikes are very closely related.
>>
>> The condition of the engine changes.  Wind does too. Here in central 
>> Maryland it is subtly breezy year round.
>>
>> I know that some days I feel like I can't even get outta my own way on my 
>> Bleriot and Sam. Other days, I feel like I'm flying along easily. Is it the 
>> wind? Is it me? This happens regardless of which tires I use.
>>
>> I had a Giant carbo/alu bike that felt fast, and it seems that I have 
>> dropped 1mph on my overall route on bike time average speeds since I 
>> switched to 650b steel, even on Compass/BQ tires. But, the fastest commute 
>> on bike timings were done on my steel bikes with both Marathons and 
>> Compass/GB tires. I'm also a few years older. Bith Rivs beat the Giant. Me? 
>> Wind?
>>
>> But my overall avapeeds were faster on the Giant with Gatorskins.
>>
>> So I I dont understand it and cannot say for sure which bike with which 
>> version of components is faster.
>>
>> I can say the Rivs are more comfy, better handling, and smoother than the 
>> Giant bike.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

We're all throwing out a lot of extremes for direct comparison on this 
thread, and trying to justify minor differences with empirical lab data 
that may or may not relate to the reality of the road.  I will say the 
fastest tires I've lived with 320 tpi, 95 psi, 27mm (probably 26).  But not 
until they warm up (also demonstrated trying to chase the tandem, which is 
a steady 2 mph faster than I normally ride).  The good news is, there are 
many great tires out there for our personal preferences of longevity, cozy, 
and fast.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/29/2016 04:21 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:

Ohhh, now check this out!!

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016

Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure. 
This is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 
nearly-slick tire, supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including 
compared to skinny road tires). I need these on my Atlantis!



Another drum test.  It may be "quantified" but that doesn't necessarily 
mean it means anything.





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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

Read again, rolling resistance ID only a small piece of the puzzle

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Mark Reimer]

Ohhh, now check this out!!

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016

Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure. This
is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 nearly-slick tire,
supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including compared to skinny road
tires). I need these on my Atlantis!

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> This is a fascinating subject. And I cannot comment on Ron's experience.
>
> Speaking from my own experience:
> It is really hard for me to know if one bike is faster than another, or if
> a component makes it faster/slower. Maybe because of the engine and wind.
> Maybe my bikes are very closely related.
>
> The condition of the engine changes.  Wind does too. Here in central
> Maryland it is subtly breezy year round.
>
> I know that some days I feel like I can't even get outta my own way on my
> Bleriot and Sam. Other days, I feel like I'm flying along easily. Is it the
> wind? Is it me? This happens regardless of which tires I use.
>
> I had a Giant carbo/alu bike that felt fast, and it seems that I have
> dropped 1mph on my overall route on bike time average speeds since I
> switched to 650b steel, even on Compass/BQ tires. But, the fastest commute
> on bike timings were done on my steel bikes with both Marathons and
> Compass/GB tires. I'm also a few years older. Bith Rivs beat the Giant. Me?
> Wind?
>
> But my overall avapeeds were faster on the Giant with Gatorskins.
>
> So I I dont understand it and cannot say for sure which bike with which
> version of components is faster.
>
> I can say the Rivs are more comfy, better handling, and smoother than the
> Giant bike.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

that would be more accurate than a dyno test on a tire, because there are a 
lot of road variables, including parachute factor, weight split between 
tires.  My go-fast bike will lunge up grades in tall gears (Open Paves) 
with a fairly gentle mash, and I would want a lower gear and spin on a 
different bike.  And yes, it's all about enjoying the ride.  Back to the 
Open Paves, they are a remarkably comfortable ride for 95 psi 27mm - they 
just don't last long, I get 600 mi from a rear.  

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 2:06:59 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Would a suitable way of measuring this be testing tires with a power 
> meter? 
>
> IE: Same power output on the same stretch of road with the same wind 
> conditions, then compare speed between tires? 
>
> Or then again, who cares. Ride what makes you feel good :)
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it 
>> certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given 
>> cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of 
>> speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi 
>> Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they *don't* vibrate.
>>
>> [Close parenthesis.]
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc > > wrote:
>>
>>> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the 
>>> desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two 
>>> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration 
>>> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know 
>>> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.  
>>> -- 
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
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>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Mark Reimer]

Would a suitable way of measuring this be testing tires with a power meter?

IE: Same power output on the same stretch of road with the same wind
conditions, then compare speed between tires?

Or then again, who cares. Ride what makes you feel good :)

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it
> certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given
> cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of
> speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi
> Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they *don't* vibrate.
>
> [Close parenthesis.]
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:
>
>> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the
>> desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two
>> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration
>> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know
>> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.
>> --
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
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> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
> --
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Re: OT: Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Ron Mc]

good to break out to another thread.  I don't have to bill 40 hours to be 
profitable.  Also, my boss and I kind of tag-team, partly to cover our 
clients in diverse time zones, but also because I'm an early morning person 
and he's not.  It's great that I can drive the highway at the times when I 
choose, most of my clients are along the Gulf coast, and pretty much work 
my hours, anyway.  Though I've fielded work on my phone at 5am on Sunday 
mornings, and also from bike water stops - grin.  

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:39:36 PM UTC-5, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> That's a good idea.  I should bail out early to ride my bike, because 
> otherwise I have no time to ride my bike, what with a new baby and trying 
> to pack up the house to move.
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Ron Mc  
> wrote:
>
>> another datapoint is making the same route and checking your watch.  I 
>> have a long commute, get to my office crazy early and leave when I want (or 
>> when the work allows).  But I also have close access to two really nice 
>> greenways from my office, so I frequently bring the bike in and bail out to 
>> ride.  I have a standard 31-mi route I normally make in 2 hours including 
>> water stops.  If I cut 10 minutes from that, I know I'm going faster.  But 
>> I can tell you for sure, Strada Biancas are faster than Barlow ELs, but not 
>> that much faster, and the comfort of the Barlows more than makes up for the 
>> difference.  
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it
certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given
cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of
speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi
Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they *don't* vibrate.

[Close parenthesis.]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the desire
> to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two
> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration
> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know
> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.
> --
>



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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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OT: Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Jim Bronson]

That's a good idea.  I should bail out early to ride my bike, because
otherwise I have no time to ride my bike, what with a new baby and trying
to pack up the house to move.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> another datapoint is making the same route and checking your watch.  I
> have a long commute, get to my office crazy early and leave when I want (or
> when the work allows).  But I also have close access to two really nice
> greenways from my office, so I frequently bring the bike in and bail out to
> ride.  I have a standard 31-mi route I normally make in 2 hours including
> water stops.  If I cut 10 minutes from that, I know I'm going faster.  But
> I can tell you for sure, Strada Biancas are faster than Barlow ELs, but not
> that much faster, and the comfort of the Barlows more than makes up for the
> difference.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Jim Bronson]

That's true about the vibration.

One other way of gauging resistance is to note the perceived effort it
takes to sustain any given speed say 15 mph.

I've been riding supple tires since late 2007 but one metric that I noticed
right away when I switched from 700x28 Conti UltraGatorskins to Grand Bois
Cypress 700x30(labeled, 32ish inflated) was that the amount of effort it
took to sustain 20+ mph was much less, and the ride was better to boot.
And this was even with the GB aired up to the max sidewall PSI of 85.  If I
knew then what I know now I would put less air in them.

Of course the Gatorskin is one of the heavest rolling slick tires made, so
YMMV.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the desire
> to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two
> different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration
> whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know
> for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:13:51 PM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>>
>> It is interesting to note that BQ riders in their tire or frame tests
>> (forgot which) did not accurately report  which tire or frame was faster.
>> Their objective impressions did not match the timer, iirc.
>>
>> Like, they claimed a certain tire or frame felt faster, when in fact, one
>> of the other ones they just rode during the test was faster, according to
>> the timer.
>>
>> From this, BQ concluded that the riders (in their study), could not
>> accurately say which frame/tire was faster.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Jim Bronson]

And is that compared to the regular Barlow or the Ultralight Barlow?

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> " I admit it was notably faster on the SBs (and should be for the size
> difference),"
>
> Ron Mc,
>
> When you say the Strada Biancas are notably faster than Barlow Pass, do
> you mean objectively measured to be faster?  If so, what was your
> measurement method and what was the measured difference in speed?  Or do
> you mean they were subjectively faster?  Like "wow, these feel a lot
> faster", or "hey I used to ride this section in Gear X, and now I'm in Gear
> Y"?
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 7:47:28 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Similar testimonial on Barlows.  I thought Strada Biancas were the
>> be-all, end-all tire.  After the best part of a year on Barlows, went back
>> to my fender bike that won't fit bigger than the 32mm, and while I admit it
>> was notably faster on the SBs (and should be for the size difference), the
>> ride was shocking compared to what I've become used to with the Barlows
>> (ditto for size difference).  I've ridden through tread on both tires, but
>> won't go back to a smaller tire on a bike that will fit Barlows.  Also not
>> saying the Barlows are slow, at all, because they are very fast, and I've
>> surprised many roadies with us passing each other back and forth.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Garth]

   
Funny Steve  I notice anywhere even as a "complaint" is registered ,  
it's given so enthusiastically ! ! 



On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 03/23/2016 01:02 PM, Garth wrote: 
> > 
> >Isn't it funny  . . . .  we all read of people trying out Riv bikes 
> > at their HQ and how wonderful they ride .  Notice we don't hear "boy I 
> > wish it had supple tires" . 
> > 
> > The simple and profound joy of riding a bicycle transcends the make, 
> > model or type of tires that are on the bike   .  . . . 
> > w ! 
> > 
> > We only make tires a big deal when we turn away from that joy , jaded 
> > .  Yet the joy is always present regardless ! 
> > 
>
> That joy is greatly dimished, overlaid with a veneer of discomfort, when 
> riding over chipseal or alligatored pavement with tires that make your 
> teeth clack together and your hands to sting and go numb. Supple tires 
> help with that. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

I rode the Race Lite yestiddy, at least half on pavement. The Maxxis Ikons
rode suprisingly well on pavement -- not as well as the road-fast F Freds,
but very well give their heavy knobs. I attribute a good part of their
rolling quality to the fact that I run the without tubes -- really,
removing tubes seems to be the equivalent of going from, say, a Kojak to a
Compass Extra Light. I daresay that the quality of the tires converted
affects the degree of difference, but it is still striking.

BTW, I am convinced that tall, heavily knobbed tires *do* add considerable
wind resistance compared to a road slick when riding into a stiff headwind.
Windy says here in Duke City!

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Tim Gavin 
wrote:

> I have 26 x 2.1" Thunder Burts (Evo Liteskin) on my '88 Schwinn KOM.  They
> are surprisingly quiet and fast on pavement, no buzzing.  They are just as
> quiet and grippy when cornering as the nearly-slick Super Motos.  They fit
> great under SKS P65 longboards.
>
> I highly recommend Bike-discount.de for all your Schwalbe tire needs.
> They have the Evo Liteskin (most supple) version for ~$34 a tire.
> http://www.bike-discount.de/en/search?q=burt
> They charge a flat ~$23 shipping fee to the US, so you may want to pad
> your order with other stuff.  They have excellent prices on anything
> Shimano (including the non-US Trekking line), as well as B dynamo lights.
>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Patrick--I notice in your photo sets you and the girls are usually on
>> non-paved surfaces. The Thunderburts look to have a pretty decent set of
>> knobs, especially on the edges. How does this affect riding on paved roads
>> and also cornering at speed? Any loss of contact issues, or buzzing? Also,
>> seem to come in a bewildering array of options. Jensen has what appears to
>> be a big sale going on these if they are the same tire.
>> 2.1" Pacestar Liteskin
>> 2.1" Snakeskin, TI Ready
>> 2.25" Pacestar Snakeskin TI Easy
>>
>> Sheesh.
>>
>> Does a 2.1 fit under Clem w fenders, or do they come 1.9?
>>
>> On the more general idea of supple tires for a bicycle like the
>> Clementine, I am feeling pretty good with the not quite stock tires on mine
>> (a packing incident led to me getting the stock Kenda in front and a
>> Schwalbe Big Ben in rear) but I do notice the bike does not roll as far as
>> other bikes on the same route. I was initially going to go for the Compass
>> Switchback EL and run them with Orange Seal, as that seems almost as
>> failsafe as an armored tire (and, knock wood, I do not generally get many
>> flats). I'm skeptical that the TBurt treads will work for my mostly paved
>> commute, so I'd like to hear from others who have tried 48-50mm 650B tires
>> for performance.
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 6:54:37 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> The supple, all road tire I ride and put on my daughter's 650b
>>> Clementines for all road/trail bikepacking is Schwalbe's Thunderburt (no
>>> snakebite or other protection). Rides like a dream. They very much noticed
>>> (and love) the difference from the stock tires. We ordered from Germany and
>>> that brought the price down to something reasonable per tire.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> --
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>
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**
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*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
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world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the 

Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/23/2016 01:02 PM, Garth wrote:


   Isn't it funny  . . . .  we all read of people trying out Riv bikes 
at their HQ and how wonderful they ride .  Notice we don't hear "boy I 
wish it had supple tires" .


The simple and profound joy of riding a bicycle transcends the make, 
model or type of tires that are on the bike   .  . . . 
w !


We only make tires a big deal when we turn away from that joy , jaded 
.  Yet the joy is always present regardless !




That joy is greatly dimished, overlaid with a veneer of discomfort, when 
riding over chipseal or alligatored pavement with tires that make your 
teeth clack together and your hands to sting and go numb. Supple tires 
help with that.



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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Toshi Takeuchi]

The change in tire is very dramatic when going to a supple tire.  You know
the road buzz when you ride a mountain bike on pavement?  You change that
mountain bike tire to a slick and you go aah!

--Do the same thing from an armored Schwalbe to a GB Hetre and the
perceived result is just as dramatic.  Vibrations are gone--you think you
are going slow because the road buzz is gone.

It truly is a different world--better is relative, but different for sure.

Toshi in Oakland

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Re: [RBW] Re: On tire supple-itude

[Tim Gavin]

I have 26 x 2.1" Thunder Burts (Evo Liteskin) on my '88 Schwinn KOM.  They
are surprisingly quiet and fast on pavement, no buzzing.  They are just as
quiet and grippy when cornering as the nearly-slick Super Motos.  They fit
great under SKS P65 longboards.

I highly recommend Bike-discount.de for all your Schwalbe tire needs.  They
have the Evo Liteskin (most supple) version for ~$34 a tire.
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/search?q=burt
They charge a flat ~$23 shipping fee to the US, so you may want to pad your
order with other stuff.  They have excellent prices on anything Shimano
(including the non-US Trekking line), as well as B dynamo lights.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Patrick--I notice in your photo sets you and the girls are usually on
> non-paved surfaces. The Thunderburts look to have a pretty decent set of
> knobs, especially on the edges. How does this affect riding on paved roads
> and also cornering at speed? Any loss of contact issues, or buzzing? Also,
> seem to come in a bewildering array of options. Jensen has what appears to
> be a big sale going on these if they are the same tire.
> 2.1" Pacestar Liteskin
> 2.1" Snakeskin, TI Ready
> 2.25" Pacestar Snakeskin TI Easy
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Does a 2.1 fit under Clem w fenders, or do they come 1.9?
>
> On the more general idea of supple tires for a bicycle like the
> Clementine, I am feeling pretty good with the not quite stock tires on mine
> (a packing incident led to me getting the stock Kenda in front and a
> Schwalbe Big Ben in rear) but I do notice the bike does not roll as far as
> other bikes on the same route. I was initially going to go for the Compass
> Switchback EL and run them with Orange Seal, as that seems almost as
> failsafe as an armored tire (and, knock wood, I do not generally get many
> flats). I'm skeptical that the TBurt treads will work for my mostly paved
> commute, so I'd like to hear from others who have tried 48-50mm 650B tires
> for performance.
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 6:54:37 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> The supple, all road tire I ride and put on my daughter's 650b
>> Clementines for all road/trail bikepacking is Schwalbe's Thunderburt (no
>> snakebite or other protection). Rides like a dream. They very much noticed
>> (and love) the difference from the stock tires. We ordered from Germany and
>> that brought the price down to something reasonable per tire.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>

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