Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[William]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Esteban and predict that's not the 
first time you used "nattering nabobs" in your writing.  :)

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 4:27:06 PM UTC-7, Esteban wrote:
>
> Here's my take, happily referencing Grant's writing:
>
> http://veloflaneur.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/a-million-little-nannies
>
> Esteban
> San Diego, Calif.
>
> On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:02:59 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>>
>> It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law, 
>> so that people could more easily "identify" cyclists. 
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
>>
>>> Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.
>>>
>>> –Eric N
>>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
>>>
>>> > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can 
>>> be observed and "identified"
>>>
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>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Dave]

...or maybe the /_rake and trail_/ of carbon forks?! Pleeeze?

On 10/2/2012 4:50 PM, cyclotourist wrote:
Awesome discussion guys. Can we now move on to the merits of carbon 
fibre forks?



On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 4:35 PM, dougP > wrote:


So, if you're riding a bicycle sans helmet there may be some confusion
as to your identity?

dougP

On Oct 2, 10:02 am, Peter Morgano mailto:uscpeter11...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a
helmet law, so
> that people could more easily "identify" cyclists.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris mailto:campyonly...@me.com>> wrote:
> > Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is
a first.
>
> > --Eric N
> > Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> > On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano
mailto:uscpeter11...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so
they can be
> > observed and "identified"
>
> > --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[cyclotourist]

Awesome discussion guys. Can we now move on to the merits of carbon fibre
forks?


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 4:35 PM, dougP  wrote:

> So, if you're riding a bicycle sans helmet there may be some confusion
> as to your identity?
>
> dougP
>
> On Oct 2, 10:02 am, Peter Morgano  wrote:
> > It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law,
> so
> > that people could more easily "identify" cyclists.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
> > > Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.
> >
> > > -Eric N
> > > Sent from my iPhone 5
> >
> > > On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano 
> wrote:
> >
> > > > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they
> can be
> > > observed and "identified"
> >
> > > --
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> .
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> > > For more options, visit this group at
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> text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Esteban]

Here's my take, happily referencing Grant's writing:

http://veloflaneur.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/a-million-little-nannies

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:02:59 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>
> It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law, so 
> that people could more easily "identify" cyclists. 
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris 
> > wrote:
>
>> Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.
>>
>> –Eric N
>> Sent from my iPhone 5
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano > 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can 
>> be observed and "identified"
>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

When I moved out of monticello we lived near High Point NJ for about 15
years, where the riding was about as you describe it. Pretty punishing back
then on a 10 speed but I was young and didnt mind it, especially since my
dad could keep up with me mile for mile and I had something to prove. I
dont know which is worse, rolling hills or climbing up the side of a
mountain, at least witht he latter you get an awesome descent. My beautiful
wife is from Middletown, but unfortunately hates riding, cant win them all!


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:57 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> > Hey, I grew up in Monticello, NY. My mom taught at the high school, we
> > moved out when I was around 8-9. Lived in beautiful Jeffersonville,
> > next to the cemetary. Good fishing country. My dad used to go hunting
> > up there with my grandfather until he passed away. I imagine that
> > would be good riding up there on the country roads but you are right,
> > in that setting I would wear a helmet, for one since the speed limit
> > is 55mph and you have some big old hills to descend.
>
> We started the Catskill Wheelmen in the spring of 1972.  We were all
> beginners, none had ever ridden with a bike club before.  Every ride
> seemed to have around 4,000 feet of climbing: turn at the corner, climb
> 1,000 feet, descend 1,000 feet, come to a 4-way stop sign, stop, climb
> 1,000 feet.  All mountains, as I recall it, and not made any easier by
> the baby seat on the back of my bike, where I carried my daughter.
>
> Our longest ride ever that first year was 25 miles, all downhill: we
> drove our cars down to Middletown, parked at a restaurant, rode back to
> the ride start in a big old International Harvester SUV-ancestor, then
> rode downhill 25 miles, put the bikes in the car, had a celebratory
> lunch and called it a season.
>
> The next year they put on a century.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:57 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Hey, I grew up in Monticello, NY. My mom taught at the high school, we
> moved out when I was around 8-9. Lived in beautiful Jeffersonville,
> next to the cemetary. Good fishing country. My dad used to go hunting
> up there with my grandfather until he passed away. I imagine that
> would be good riding up there on the country roads but you are right,
> in that setting I would wear a helmet, for one since the speed limit
> is 55mph and you have some big old hills to descend. 

We started the Catskill Wheelmen in the spring of 1972.  We were all
beginners, none had ever ridden with a bike club before.  Every ride
seemed to have around 4,000 feet of climbing: turn at the corner, climb
1,000 feet, descend 1,000 feet, come to a 4-way stop sign, stop, climb
1,000 feet.  All mountains, as I recall it, and not made any easier by
the baby seat on the back of my bike, where I carried my daughter. 

Our longest ride ever that first year was 25 miles, all downhill: we
drove our cars down to Middletown, parked at a restaurant, rode back to
the ride start in a big old International Harvester SUV-ancestor, then
rode downhill 25 miles, put the bikes in the car, had a celebratory
lunch and called it a season.

The next year they put on a century.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Matt Beebe]

Exactly Tim.Those findings in Minnesota jive with the stats I posted 
above.Biggest players in traumatic brain injuries, or TBIs as they're 
called, seem to be motor vehicles and firearms.Seems there is no 
shortage of stuff we can make laws about if we want to reduce the incidence 
of head trauma.   Guess I'll have to wait to become a habitual offender.



On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:46:54 PM UTC-4, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2012, at 12:03 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
> > 
> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar 
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>>
>> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
>> > walking.
>>
>> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>>
>>
>  
> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet 
> while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen 
> for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those 
> activities.
>
>
> Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota 
> Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain 
> injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries 
> from motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds, 
> suicide attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were 
> fewer brain injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike 
> paths and trails.   
>
> Bicycling is safe.  The general perception of bicycling now is that it is 
> a brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember when 
> that public perception changed:  when plastic bike helmets hit the market 
> ca. 1975.  Bicycling! Magazine led the charge.  It's a great example of a 
> meme.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

Hey, I grew up in Monticello, NY. My mom taught at the high school, we
moved out when I was around 8-9. Lived in beautiful Jeffersonville, next to
the cemetary. Good fishing country. My dad used to go hunting up there
with my grandfather until he passed away. I imagine that would be good
riding up there on the country roads but you are right, in that setting I
would wear a helmet, for one since the speed limit is 55mph and you have
some big old hills to descend.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 13:46 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > Bicycling is safe.  The general perception of bicycling now is that it
> > is a brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember
> > when that public perception changed:  when plastic bike helmets hit
> > the market ca. 1975.  Bicycling! Magazine led the charge.  It's a
> > great example of a meme.
>
> I remember those days well.  I remember in 1972 when my wife fainted on
> a bike ride, went down and hit her head.  I remember driving on Rt 17 in
> the Catskills at 120 mph taking her to the hospital, with my daughter in
> the back seat, and her asking every few minutes "Are we married?  Do we
> have a child?" and "Who is that kid in the car?"
>
> And I remember Dick Burns, an engineer from Rochester NY, visiting us in
> Monticello, telling us about the ride he was on when his friend and
> mentor crashed when he hit a dog, and how he died in his arms from a
> brain injury, and how Dick then designed a bike helmet and tried to
> persuade the helmet companies to make it commercially.
>
> I remember how my wife and I bought hockey helmets after that, and how
> at CoNYMA, the very first bike rally I ever attended, 1973, I was riding
> with Irv Weisman, technical editor of the League of American Wheelmen
> Bulletin, who also was wearing a hockey helmet.  We got quite a bit of
> ribbing at the start of the ride, but about halfway through the ride we
> came upon a crash.  A guy went down on gravel, landed on his head and
> peeled his scalp right off his skull.  Oceans of blood everywhere,
> simply shocking.  And I remember how after that we got all kinds of
> questions about where'd we get those helmets, and what were they.
>
> Eventually, in early 1975, Dick Burns convinced MSR to make a
> modification of their climbing helmet and turn it into a bike helmet.
> I recall Dick demonstrating that helmet at a workshop at GEAR 1975 that
> I, as workshop chairman, had set up.  He brought a bowling pin with him,
> put on the helmet, and whacked himself on the head with it.  Then he
> offered anyone in the workshop the chance to use the bowling pin to
> whack themselves over the head with a leather hairnet.
>
> I remember the skepticism in the Mid-Hudson Bike Club, that I belonged
> to at the time, until the strongest, most agile rider in the entire
> club, Jack Barnard, who had bought one, crashed on a night commute home
> from work.  He ran over a downed tree branch that he had mistaken for a
> shadow, and the bike pivoted around the front wheel high-wheeler style,
> and he came down right on his head.  I remember the drawing we made of
> the helmet for the club newletter (in those days, hand typed and hand
> drawn with a stylus on a mimeograph stencil) of the shattered helmet,
> and I remember Jack's comment that he had a headache, but the ER docs
> told him were it not for that helmet he would have been a dead man.  And
> I remember how by the end of the month every member of the Mid-Hudson
> Bicycle Club had bought a helmet.
>
> Yeah, it's all a conspiracy on the part of the helmet makers and
> Bicycling magazine, and head injuries just don't happen.  And if you're
> extra careful, bike crashes don't happen either.
>
> Bull$hit.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 13:46 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:

> Bicycling is safe.  The general perception of bicycling now is that it
> is a brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember
> when that public perception changed:  when plastic bike helmets hit
> the market ca. 1975.  Bicycling! Magazine led the charge.  It's a
> great example of a meme.

I remember those days well.  I remember in 1972 when my wife fainted on
a bike ride, went down and hit her head.  I remember driving on Rt 17 in
the Catskills at 120 mph taking her to the hospital, with my daughter in
the back seat, and her asking every few minutes "Are we married?  Do we
have a child?" and "Who is that kid in the car?" 

And I remember Dick Burns, an engineer from Rochester NY, visiting us in
Monticello, telling us about the ride he was on when his friend and
mentor crashed when he hit a dog, and how he died in his arms from a
brain injury, and how Dick then designed a bike helmet and tried to
persuade the helmet companies to make it commercially.

I remember how my wife and I bought hockey helmets after that, and how
at CoNYMA, the very first bike rally I ever attended, 1973, I was riding
with Irv Weisman, technical editor of the League of American Wheelmen
Bulletin, who also was wearing a hockey helmet.  We got quite a bit of
ribbing at the start of the ride, but about halfway through the ride we
came upon a crash.  A guy went down on gravel, landed on his head and
peeled his scalp right off his skull.  Oceans of blood everywhere,
simply shocking.  And I remember how after that we got all kinds of
questions about where'd we get those helmets, and what were they.

Eventually, in early 1975, Dick Burns convinced MSR to make a
modification of their climbing helmet and turn it into a bike helmet.
I recall Dick demonstrating that helmet at a workshop at GEAR 1975 that
I, as workshop chairman, had set up.  He brought a bowling pin with him,
put on the helmet, and whacked himself on the head with it.  Then he
offered anyone in the workshop the chance to use the bowling pin to
whack themselves over the head with a leather hairnet.

I remember the skepticism in the Mid-Hudson Bike Club, that I belonged
to at the time, until the strongest, most agile rider in the entire
club, Jack Barnard, who had bought one, crashed on a night commute home
from work.  He ran over a downed tree branch that he had mistaken for a
shadow, and the bike pivoted around the front wheel high-wheeler style,
and he came down right on his head.  I remember the drawing we made of
the helmet for the club newletter (in those days, hand typed and hand
drawn with a stylus on a mimeograph stencil) of the shattered helmet,
and I remember Jack's comment that he had a headache, but the ER docs
told him were it not for that helmet he would have been a dead man.  And
I remember how by the end of the month every member of the Mid-Hudson
Bicycle Club had bought a helmet.

Yeah, it's all a conspiracy on the part of the helmet makers and
Bicycling magazine, and head injuries just don't happen.  And if you're
extra careful, bike crashes don't happen either.

Bull$hit.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Rex Kerr  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Tim McNamara  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota
>> Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain
>> injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries
>> from motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds,
>> suicide attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were
>> fewer brain injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike
>> paths and trails.
>
>
>
> Do you have a link to a source for this?  I'd love to read it.
>

A little googling:

from here:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/injury/midas/ub92/

selecting:
State of Minnesota
Traumatic Brain Injury

mechanisms:
Fall
Motorvehicle vs pedestrian
Motorvehicle vs cyclist
pedal cyclist - other
pedestrian - other

You get the following results:

Fall - 6278
Motorvehicle vs pedestrian - 117
Motorvehicle vs cyclist - 78
pedal cyclist - other - 446
pedestrian - other - 19

Total Traumatic Brain Injuries for the 2011 year above is 13702

so falls make up the lion's share.

I also pulled all the Motorvehicle ones

and I see
Motorvehicle occupant: 1354

-sv

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Rex Kerr]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Tim McNamara  wrote:

>
> Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota
> Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain
> injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries
> from motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds,
> suicide attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were
> fewer brain injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike
> paths and trails.
>


Do you have a link to a source for this?  I'd love to read it.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Tim McNamara]

On Oct 2, 2012, at 12:03 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
 wrote:

> 
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>> 
>> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
>> > walking.
>> 
>> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
> 
>  
> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet 
> while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen for 
> a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those 
> activities.

Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota 
Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain 
injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries from 
motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds, suicide 
attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were fewer brain 
injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike paths and 
trails.   

Bicycling is safe.  The general perception of bicycling now is that it is a 
brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember when that 
public perception changed:  when plastic bike helmets hit the market ca. 1975.  
Bicycling! Magazine led the charge.  It's a great example of a meme.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Ron Mc]

I honestly wouldn't have considered wearing a helmet before I had kids. 
 Now I have to do it at least for example.  I let my daughter ride up and 
down the hill without her helmet, but I still cringe when I see her coming 
down the hill at a clip.  I've also seen her at 35 mph on hills, but that 
would never be without a helmet (not sure it would help at that speed). 
 But agreeing with my last post, a helmet is a great platform for a mirror. 
 My nephew rode into the back of a car in Denver traffic when he was 
checking behind him (without a mirror).  He was wearing a helmet, and nosed 
it into the guy's rear window, and did enough damage to the car that his 
auto insurance had to repair it.  

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, David G wrote:
>
> Yes, those stats seem on the mark to me. It would be interesting to unpack 
> the "Falls" category, however. My guess is that very very few would involve 
> healthy alert people falling down while walking or running or engaging in 
> common daily activities. In my limited and anecdotal experience as a 
> surgeon who has taken care of hundreds if not thousands of traumatically 
> injured patients, falls that result in serious brain injury usually occur 
> in individuals with other risk factors such as alcohol or drug 
> intoxication, weakness and other functional limitations associated with old 
> age, medical conditions that cause sudden loss of consciousness such as 
> epilepsy and atrial fibrillation, engaging in relatively risky activities 
> (e.g., hunting in a tree stand), etc. 
>
> - David G in SF
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Matt Beebe 
> > wrote:
>
>> According to the Pituitary 
>> Society, 
>> the causes of traumatic brain injury are:
>>
>> 39% Firearms
>> 34% Vehicle Accidents
>> 10% Falls
>> 17% Other 
>> According to the national Brain Injury Association, 
>> the leading causes of brain injury, in order of prevalence are: 
>>
>> 50% Motor vehicle crashes
>> 21% Falls
>> 12% Firearms
>> 10% Sports/Recreation
>> 07% Other 
>>
>> According to the CDC, 
>> the breakdown is:
>>
>> 35.2% Falls
>> 17% Motor Vehicle
>> 16% Colliding with moving or stationary object
>> 10% Assault
>> 21% Other 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:03:30 PM UTC-4, David G wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  **
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:

 > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
 > walking.

 Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.


>>>  
>>> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a 
>>> helmet while walking or running because something very odd would have to 
>>> happen for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging 
>>> in those activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the 
>>> conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning 
>>> forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial 
>>> head impact more likely in a crash. 
>>>
>>> Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and 
>>> helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved 
>>> risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just 
>>> riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my 
>>> bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a 
>>> bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a 
>>> pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.  
>>>
>>> Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright 
>>> lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If 
>>> so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to 
>>> further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast 
>>> bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless 
>>> riding. 
>>>
>>> - David G in SF
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Yes, those stats seem on the mark to me. It would be interesting to unpack
the "Falls" category, however. My guess is that very very few would involve
healthy alert people falling down while walking or running or engaging in
common daily activities. In my limited and anecdotal experience as a
surgeon who has taken care of hundreds if not thousands of traumatically
injured patients, falls that result in serious brain injury usually occur
in individuals with other risk factors such as alcohol or drug
intoxication, weakness and other functional limitations associated with old
age, medical conditions that cause sudden loss of consciousness such as
epilepsy and atrial fibrillation, engaging in relatively risky activities
(e.g., hunting in a tree stand), etc.

- David G in SF


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Matt Beebe  wrote:

> According to the Pituitary 
> Society,
> the causes of traumatic brain injury are:
>
> 39% Firearms
> 34% Vehicle Accidents
> 10% Falls
> 17% Other
> According to the national Brain Injury Association,
> the leading causes of brain injury, in order of prevalence are:
>
> 50% Motor vehicle crashes
> 21% Falls
> 12% Firearms
> 10% Sports/Recreation
> 07% Other
>
> According to the CDC ,
> the breakdown is:
>
> 35.2% Falls
> 17% Motor Vehicle
> 16% Colliding with moving or stationary object
> 10% Assault
> 21% Other
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:03:30 PM UTC-4, David G wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  **
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>>>
>>> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
>>> > walking.
>>>
>>> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet
>> while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen
>> for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those
>> activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the
>> conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning
>> forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial
>> head impact more likely in a crash.
>>
>> Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and
>> helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved
>> risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just
>> riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my
>> bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a
>> bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a
>> pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.
>>
>> Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright
>> lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If
>> so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to
>> further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast
>> bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless
>> riding.
>>
>> - David G in SF
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Matt Beebe]

According to the Pituitary 
Society, 
the causes of traumatic brain injury are:

39% Firearms
34% Vehicle Accidents
10% Falls
17% Other 
According to the national Brain Injury Association , 
the leading causes of brain injury, in order of prevalence are: 

50% Motor vehicle crashes
21% Falls
12% Firearms
10% Sports/Recreation
07% Other 

According to the CDC , 
the breakdown is:

35.2% Falls
17% Motor Vehicle
16% Colliding with moving or stationary object
10% Assault
21% Other 



On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:03:30 PM UTC-4, David G wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar 
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>>
>> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
>> > walking.
>>
>> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>>
>>
>  
> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet 
> while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen 
> for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those 
> activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the 
> conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning 
> forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial 
> head impact more likely in a crash. 
>
> Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and 
> helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved 
> risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just 
> riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my 
> bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a 
> bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a 
> pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.  
>
> Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright 
> lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If 
> so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to 
> further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast 
> bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless 
> riding. 
>
> - David G in SF
>
>
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

The only time I got hit by a car was walking across the street, legally.
Girl made a left and rolled me over the hood hard onto the ground.  I didnt
get up and blame myself for not wearing a helmet and/or other safety gear
or for having the audacity to walk across the street, which clearly is just
for cars...

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, David Yu Greenblatt <
david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>>
>>
>> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
>> > walking.
>>
>> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>>
>>
>
> I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet
> while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen
> for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those
> activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the
> conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning
> forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial
> head impact more likely in a crash.
>
> Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and
> helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved
> risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just
> riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my
> bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a
> bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a
> pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.
>
> Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright
> lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If
> so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to
> further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast
> bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless
> riding.
>
> - David G in SF
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[David Yu Greenblatt]

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
> > walking.
>
> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>
>

I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet
while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen
for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those
activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the
conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning
forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial
head impact more likely in a crash.

Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and
helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved
risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just
riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my
bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a
bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a
pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.

Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright
lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If
so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to
further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast
bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless
riding.

- David G in SF

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law, so
that people could more easily "identify" cyclists.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:

> Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.
>
> –Eric N
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
>
> > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can be
> observed and "identified"
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Eric Norris]

Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first. 

–Eric N
Sent from my iPhone 5

On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:

> I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can be 
> observed and "identified"

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

For the record I always wear a helmet. I also go back to check to see if I
locked the front door, pick the seat near the conductor on the subway, wait
on the sidewalk for the light to change, etc. As a freedom loving liberal
though I dont feel at all that my neurosis should be applied to society at
large. I am not sure at all they make you safer, I am just that neurotic.
 I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can be
observed and "identified"  its just another way to make us feel like we
dont belong or are doing something wrong and should just be ready for when
someone tries to run us down.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Matt Beebe  wrote:

> I agree with the article, but sometimes I feel it would be great to be
> continually breaking the law whenever I rode my bicycle-  as it is, I only
> get to break the law here and there while riding.
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 7:33:18 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/**09/30/sunday-review/to-**
>> encourage-biking-cities-**forget-about-helmets.html?**pagewanted=all
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Matt Beebe]

It would be great to be continually breaking the law whenever I rode my 
bicycle.   As it is, I only get to break the law here and there when riding 
my bike.


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RE: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Yes - the question of whether society should or should not require helmet use 
involves some importantly different policy considerations than any given 
individual's decision whether to use one.  For myself (as one who probably 
avoided more serious injury in a bad (self-induced) crash because of a helmet I 
was wearing only because my wife insisted), I wear one most of the time.  But I 
don't mind wearing them at all.  For those who do (for whatever reason) mind, 
it's their decision, and not mine.

And, in particular, +1 on the last sentence of the preceding message:  "I do 
think it's unfortunate that the pro-helmet/anti-helmet debate has devolved (in 
some quarters) to the level of holy war."

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of soapscum
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 8:07 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

I'm sure I'm a statistical anomaly, and at the risk of exposing myself as 
either profoundly unlucky or a terrible rider, I've had helmets save my noggin' 
from serious injury twice. The first when a car hit me and I landed on my head 
resulting in a dandy concussion and a sprain in 3 cervical vertebra. 
Unquestionably, I'd have been much worse off without the helmet. The second 
time, a patch of black ice disappeared my bike out from underneath me and I 
went down hard enough to break the helmet on the pavement, ringing my bell hard 
enough that I didn't realize I'd broken my wrist for about 4 hours. Apart from 
riding in an urban environment to begin with, I wasn't taking any unusual 
risks; things happen. I can still walk, talk, ride my bike, feed myself... so, 
I'll keep wearing a helmet. Seems to work for me. And while it's clearly the 
fallacy of the vivid example, it's the reason I require my daughter to wear 
hers, helmet law or no. Do I think helmet use should be mandated by statute? I 
don't, but it's not one of the injustices I devote any time to. I do think it's 
unfortunate that the pro-helmet/anti-helmet debate has devolved (in some 
quarters) to the level of holy war.

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 4:33:18 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?pagewanted=all
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 15:08 -0700, Joe Broach wrote:
> 
> Brewster, I guess I rationalize it the other way around. In my sample
> of one, I ride more carefully the (10%?) of the time I don't wear my
> helmet. Specifically, I ride more slowly on quieter streets, leave
> more escape room, and rarely ride in the dark or rain without a
> helmet. Out of the city, I pretty much only ditch the helmet for
> climbs, and if I do descend, I don't push it. It may be unsupportable,
> but it's the internal bargain I've made with myself.

Just for fun, let's examine a few accidents I've had, and see if "being
more careful" would have helped.

- front wheel gets caught in a crack between two lanes of concrete
pavement, front wheel washes out, bike crashes.  10 mph at the time, if
that much.

- JRA and ride into an invisible, paved-over pothole.  I couldn't see
the depression after the crash when I was standing right next to it.

- I come over the crest of a roller the day after a big thunderstorm,
and there in defilade just beyond the crest, out of sight, is a large
tree branch.  I don't see it until I am almost on top of it, can't stop
before I run over it and crash.

- The wet spot I thought was water running across the bike trail turned
out to be black ice.  Soon as I hit it, the bike flips sideways and down
I go.

- The Mt. Vernon Trail detour under the Wilson Bridge routes you up onto
a sidewalk at about a 15 degree angle.  I don't see that just before you
get to the newly cast concrete curb-cut there's a section of dirt
immediately adjacent to the curb cut that's washed out, so instead of a
level transition up the curb cut, it's a 1" ledge, and I hit it at a
very shallow angle.  Front wheel washes out and down I go.

- I'm riding down the bike trail and there are two joggers ahead of me.
I yell and ring my bell; they acknowledge and one jogger moves to the
right and one moves into the left lane.  I tell them I'm coming up the
middle.  As I am a couple of feet from them, the guy on the left crosses
over to the right and steps right in front of my bike.  I run him down.

- I'm riding down the bike trail and my front tire blows.  (Turns out
there was a sharp metal edge inside the rim that cut the sidewall.)  I'm
not sure which wheel blew out, so I coast to lose speed rather than
hitting any brake.  The bike suddenly loses all directional stability
and rolls right over, augering into the ground.

Now, what was that you were saying about being more careful?  





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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Joe Broach]

> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:29:40 PM UTC-7, gep7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>  It is that only if you regard helmets as totally safe and ignore any
>> tendency to take more risks when wearing one.
>
>On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
> I've heard this statement beforea and am unclear as to kind of "risk"  these
> riders are taking - i.e., ride faster than allowed, run thru stop
> signs/lights, weave between cars in traffic, making "daredevil" type moves
> like jumping off cliffs, walls, barriers, or what?

Brewster, I guess I rationalize it the other way around. In my sample
of one, I ride more carefully the (10%?) of the time I don't wear my
helmet. Specifically, I ride more slowly on quieter streets, leave
more escape room, and rarely ride in the dark or rain without a
helmet. Out of the city, I pretty much only ditch the helmet for
climbs, and if I do descend, I don't push it. It may be unsupportable,
but it's the internal bargain I've made with myself.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[PATRICK MOORE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119262/

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/walking-helmet-is-good-helmet.html

But true, the statistic does not analyze the types of injuries, just the
overall danger or risk; still, walking is pretty darn safe, so the risk to
head in cycling can't be huge. OTOH, I've been told by an ER technician
that head injuries are more common and serious in auto accidents than in
bike accidents -- anecdotal, one person's experience. Put all of this
together as you will; I've drawn my own practical conclusions.

And I am always open to new -- but statistical! -- evidence. I have a
helmet hanging at home for the time that I am finally convinced it is
needed.



On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
> > One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
> > walking.
>
> Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.
>
>
>
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-- 
"Believe nothing until it has been officially denied."
   -- Claude Cockburn

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:

> One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
> walking.

Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[PATRICK MOORE]

Really, as far as I can tell.

For me, the issue is: what is the actual, statistically determined risk for
death or injury from cycling? If the statistics I've read are true -- the
NYT article cites one putting cycling on a par with walking; another I've
read claims cycling is less dangerous than walking and about 2X as
dangerous as riding in a car per unit distance and equal in danger to
riding in a car per unit time (don't recall the locations but major,
urban/suburban circumstances) -- then the issue becomes more clear. One
doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while walking.

One other statistical point: from Forester, I think: among cyclists, injury
and death is much greater for children and adolescents; the safest cyclists
are older, urban commuters. (Citing from memory.) True, much the same can
be said for autos -- young males skew the statistics -- but the point is
still valid.

It was from such research a few years ago that I decided not to bother with
helmets. Do I think a 8 oz piece of styrofoam certified by a very
unrealistic test (in the US; I think the Euro test is more rigorous) might
be of some value in an accident? Of course. But put in the statistical
context just described, I have concluded that I am not being foolish by
foregoing one.

Lies, damned likes and statistics; but still, it is the large picture,
quantified with sufficient rigor, that gives the most accurate assessment
of one's true risk.

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:21 PM, rob markwardt wrote:

>
>
>
> >" Finally, this is not a pro- or anti-helmet post."
>
>
>  Really?
>
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-- 
"Believe nothing until it has been officially denied."
   -- Claude Cockburn

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

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Re: [RBW] Re: Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter Morgano]

If you read the ny times article it touches on these kind of personal
stories. The issue is that without taking away the stigma of helmet use and
cyclists as being "the other" we will never get where Europe is. I fell
going 35mph and a helmet probably saved me from more harm than I got but
going down the side of a mountain is not riding to the grocery store.
Cyclists need to reach a critical mass where drivers and laws that favor a
car based society can make may for a bike friendly environment. Dropping
the "wear a helmet or die" mantra is part of this push as I see it.
On Sep 30, 2012 9:56 PM, "Jim Cloud"  wrote:

> Here's another article the group might find interesting:
>
>
> http://azstarnet.com/news/local/josh-brodesky-my-brush-with-death-and-my-new-rules/article_53fedad6-1ff6-5083-8610-2f4a77303c81.html
>
> Note that the street mentioned in this article, Mountain Avenue. is a
> specific bike thoroughfare with wide bike lanes and it's regularly
> traversed by many cyclists on a daily basis (especially while the
> University of Arizona is in session).
>
> Jim Cloud
> Tucson, AZ
>
> On Sep 30, 4:33 pm, Peter M  wrote:
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-c...
>
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