Re: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging

[Steve Higgins]

Wrenches,

When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads this can
affect the harmonics of the generator output.

Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger generator to
handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads of the system, and
even in some of those cases depending on the generator dosn't even fix
that.

I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of the
inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss..




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
<#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> 
 






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On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White  wrote:

> I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house
> base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator.
> The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue
> with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too.
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink  wrote:
>
>> I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with
>> Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But
>> the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave
>> brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the
>> inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim
>> internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the
>> battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with
>> my scopemeter and post it.
>> Dan Fink
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
>> NABCEP PV Associate
>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
>> d anbo...@gmail.com
>> 970-672-4342
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Matt,
>>>
>>> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt
>>> Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small
>>> generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much
>>> makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some
>>> loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small
>>> generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of
>>> the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The
>>> generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise.
>>>
>>> Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint.  I'm hoping
>>> someone has bumped up against this issue before.
>>>
>>> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen.
>>> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter.
>>> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed)
>>> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place.
>>>
>>> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly
>>> during battery charging with the gen.
>>> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit.  The dryer worked as it
>>> should with the Trace during battery charging.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sherald
>>> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging

[Ray]

I'll third the recommendation of a larger generator.  I quit trying the 
tiny genset setup 15 years ago.  My rule of thumb is the genset needs to 
be 50% larger than the inverter rating (6kw for a 4 kw inverter) plus 
the altitude derating.  Here in Colorado, you pretty much need a 8 kw 
genset with a 4 kw inverter.  Besides altitude, most gensets do not run 
right or put out clean power at full load.


I've recently found that fuel efficiency is not as bad as you might 
think for the bigger gen sets running at 50% rating.  The tiny bit of 
extra cost and fuel consumption is a small price to pay for reliable 
back up power.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/17/20 12:05 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Many of these issues also were solved with an inverter that had gen 
support or load shave.


Time for a new inverter or a generator that is twice the load wattage. 
This was common back in the day and as Steve said, some cases just 
can't be fixed. Another reason many have abandoned 12v 
inverter/chargers except for RV use.


  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11 -0700, Steve Higgins  
wrote:



Wrenches,

When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads 
this can affect the harmonics of the generator output.


Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger 
generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads 
of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the 
generator dosn't even fix that.


I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of 
the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss..




Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840
f+1.902.597.8447 est...@surrette.com 
 
 
 




*Become a Certified PV Professional. Register forNABCEP CEC 2020* 
*using promo code* *20RBE* 



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privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other 
use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information 
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On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White > wrote:


I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery
charging, house base loads, and the microwave were too much power
for the small generator. The voltage drops big time which I
assume is what was causing the issue with the microwave and most
likely with the dryer too.

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's
systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw
generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is
microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They
run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the
inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud
hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't heat if the
generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to
figure out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter
and post it.
Dan Fink
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP PV Associate
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d
anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342


On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg
mailto:k...@coveoregon.com>> wrote:

Matt,

I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of
a 3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to
look at the waveform of a small generator while an FX
inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much makes an
ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear
that some 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Many of these issues also were solved with an inverter that had gen
support or load shave. 

Time for a new inverter or a generator that is
twice the load wattage. This was common back in the day and as Steve said,
some cases just can't be fixed. Another reason many have abandoned 12v
inverter/chargers except for RV use.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go
where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11
-0700, Steve Higgins  wrote:  Wrenches, 

When the inverter charger charges
the battery bank and runs loads this can affect the harmonics of the
generator output. 

Not much you can do about it other than putting in a
larger generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads
of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the generator
dosn't even fix that. 

I have seen some successful with filter caps on the
output / Input of the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss..   

  
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager  t +1.902.597.4020 m
+1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e st...@surrette.com [4]


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 CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted
herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential,
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-

  On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White 
wrote:  I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging,
house base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small
generator. The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing
the issue with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too.  
  On
Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink  wrote:  I have the same problem at
my place, and a couple client's systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and
small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is
microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They run fine
straight from the generator, and fine from the inverter with no generator
running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't
heat if the generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to figure
out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter and post it.
   
Dan Fink  Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV
Associate
 NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified
Instructor(tm) for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [14]anbo...@gmail.com
[15] 970-672-4342  

  On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg 
wrote:  Matt,

 I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a
3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of
a small generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty
much makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that
some loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a
small generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little
filtering of the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator.
The generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency
noise.

 Kent Osterberg
 Blue Mountain Solar

 On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt
Sherald wrote:   Hello All,   My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer
complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before.  
The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen.  Her gas clothes
dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. It runs properly on the Honda gen
(when the inverter is bypassed) It will not run when the gen is on and
battery charging is taking place.   All the other AC loads (including the
washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. The OB
inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the
Trace during battery charging.   Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!  
 -- 
 Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP
Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943
  www.getpimby.blogspot.com
[17]
 www.getpimby.com [18] 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging

[Will White]

I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house
base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator.
The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue
with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too.

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink  wrote:

> I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with
> Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But
> the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave
> brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the
> inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim
> internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the
> battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with
> my scopemeter and post it.
> Dan Fink
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
> NABCEP PV Associate
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt
>> Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small
>> generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much
>> makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some
>> loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small
>> generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of
>> the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The
>> generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise.
>>
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>
>>
>> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint.  I'm hoping
>> someone has bumped up against this issue before.
>>
>> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen.
>> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter.
>> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed)
>> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place.
>>
>> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly
>> during battery charging with the gen.
>> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit.  The dryer worked as it
>> should with the Trace during battery charging.
>>
>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sherald
>> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
>> 304-704-5943
>>
>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com
>> www.getpimby.com
>>
>>
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Curriculum Developer


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries

[Vic Guillot]

Hey Dave,
Thanks for your input. The issue at stake here is that one or more large
solar supply companies misrepresented the facts on this combination of
inverter gear and battery. They did start the year out with LG Chem being
the first battery on the compatibility list. After months of complaints
they quickly pivoted somewhere around June. I know there are other
installers out there, we hope to hear from them too.
Vic Guillot

Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.
209.795.3554 office
209.768.3560 mobile/text



On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:10 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> As others have said, it is an LG problem. I did the field test here for
> Schneider and LG on the 48vdc battery. I got to look at the 400v resu 10H
> and it was worse than the 48v resu 10. At that time the 10h only worked
> with Solar Edge the Israeli company.
>
> The bad part, to me, was that LG never cared to finish the test here and
> do a failure analysis on what killed their resu 10. The other one still
> works but I cut the charge current way below spec, and use it only with a
> CSW and not the XW it was meant for.
>
> In Australia they use the resu 10 with Victron, but it has had alot of
> issues and never has been listed for offgrid. LG needs to re-engineer the
> whole ESS line. They are NMC based and that too is an issue that LFP has
> solved!
>
> My advice to the problem here, is to get the supplier to put pressure on
> both SMA and LG for a refund or credit. What a nightmare for you!  Good
> Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:06:49 -0500, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote:
>
> I would like to share my experience.
>
>
>
> It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience that is
> represented. The LG Chem should never been on any “compatible” list.
> Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in front of
> BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components we have
> trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit systems.
>
>
>
> Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is completely
> useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations when the LG
> Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa, it causes
> the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the
> conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates.
>
>
>
> In backup mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so
> much so that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system
> load is put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot /
> PV inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit
> what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic
> Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating
> the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up
> load capability.
>
>
>
> SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two systems. Sure…but I
> bought LG based on what you represented in documentation so I really want
> to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD batteries before I spend money on legal
> help to join a class-action suit regarding the misrepresentation.
>
>
>
> I expect more from SMA.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

As others have said, it is an LG problem. I did the field test here for
Schneider and LG on the 48vdc battery. I got to look at the 400v resu 10H
and it was worse than the 48v resu 10. At that time the 10h only worked
with Solar Edge the Israeli company.  

The bad part, to me, was that LG
never cared to finish the test here and do a failure analysis on what
killed their resu 10. The other one still works but I cut the charge
current way below spec, and use it only with a CSW and not the XW it was
meant for. 

In Australia they use the resu 10 with Victron, but it has had
alot of issues and never has been listed for offgrid. LG needs to
re-engineer the whole ESS line. They are NMC based and that too is an issue
that LFP has solved! 

My advice to the problem here, is to get the
supplier to put pressure on both SMA and LG for a refund or credit. What a
nightmare for you! Good Luck!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:06:49
-0500, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote:   

I would like to share my
experience. 

It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience
that is represented. The LG Chem should never been on any "compatible"
list. Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in
front of BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components
we have trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit
systems. 

Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is
completely useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations
when the LG Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa,
it causes the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the
conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates. 

In backup
mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so much so
that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system load is
put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot / PV
inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit
what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic
Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating
the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up
load capability. 

SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two
systems. Sure…but I bought LG based on what you represented in
documentation so I really want to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD
batteries before I spend money on legal help to join a class-action suit
regarding the misrepresentation. 

I expect more from SMA. 

  


Links:
--
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[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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