[RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[drake . chamberlin]

There has been a lot of great information that has been shared. This 
list is truly awesome!


My takeaway is that, if Li-Ion is going to be used in a system with an 
old FX inverter, probably the Discover would be the best choice.


Due to cost and potential compatibility issues, a better solution would 
likely be to use a set of good AGM batteries.


Does this sound right?

Thank you,

Drake
Athens Electric

--
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Steve Higgins]

why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life
> whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it?  same chemistry?  so
> is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling?
> Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP?  or is that
> not so much a curve as a flat line?
>
> thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
> VillageLab
> Village Power Design
> www.villagelab.net
> www.villagepowerdesign.com
> cell - 413-559-9763
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
> Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM:
>
> Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much
> higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.
>
> Richard
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi William,
>>
>> I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based
>> on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use
>> this same formula to compare all batteries to each other.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> Peltz power.
>>
>> For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371
>> amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh
>> Retail is $400
>>
>> 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh
>> $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh
>> 10 years of 50% cycling daily
>>
>> Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr.
>> 2.4 kWh
>> $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh.
>> 3.8 yrs life
>>
>> Compare to say BI
>> $1000 kWh roughly.
>> If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh.
>> 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
>> However, you have a massive upfront money cost.
>> And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many
>> lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s
>> assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable
>> amount is actually 85%, not 100%.
>> Cost per kWh goes to $.12.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
>> arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced
>> the product.  I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable
>> amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of
>> a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am using these parameters:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
>>
>> 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I am wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For
>> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of
>> projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9
>> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it
>> practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for
>> circulating currents in this many parallel strings?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
>>
>>
>>
>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
>> best battery you will install.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>> Athens Electric
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes Richard is right. When doing these one cycle or lifetime comparisons 
we should derate the rated or useful KWH figures by the round trip 
efficiency:


Round Trip Efficiencies:

FLA - 82-85%
AGM - 88-92%
AGM-Carbon - 90-94%
LFP - 94%-98%

:)

jc

Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM:
Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much 
higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.


Richard


On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi William,

I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh
based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be
used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other.

Jay

Peltz power.

For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a
371 amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh
Retail is $400

3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh
$400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh
10 years of 50% cycling daily

Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400
amp hr. 2.4 kWh
$325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh.
3.8 yrs life

Compare to say BI
$1000 kWh roughly.
If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh.
27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
However, you have a massive upfront money cost.
And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And
many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100%
daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to
95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%.
Cost per kWh goes to $.12.





On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:



Friends:

I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries
and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that
comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue
Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a
cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?

I am using these parameters:

1.DOD for flooded L16s: 50%

2.DOD for Blue Planet: 100%

I hope I am wrong.

Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000
AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded
batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity
in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus
100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9
cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating
currents in this many parallel strings?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
*Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
    *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

-- 
___

List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
<http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
<http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Will White]

t; arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced
>> the product.  I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable
>> amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of
>> a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am using these parameters:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
>>
>> 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I am wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For
>> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of
>> projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9
>> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it
>> practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for
>> circulating currents in this many parallel strings?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
>>
>>
>>
>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
>> best battery you will install.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>> Athens Electric
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
> --
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
> linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
> www.villagepowerdesign.com
> cell - 413-559-9763
> ~~~
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>

-- 
*Will White*
Curriculum Developer


e: w...@solarenergy.org
w: www.solarenergy.org
p: 802-272-3092

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
# 093006-34
Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
<http://solarenergy.org/donate>.
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[jay]

gt;  
>>> I am using these parameters:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
>>> 
>>> 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
>>> 
>>>  
>>> I hope I am wrong.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For 
>>> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of 
>>> projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 
>>> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it 
>>> practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for 
>>> circulating currents in this many parallel strings?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> William Miller
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Jerry 
>>> Shafer
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best 
>>> battery you will install.
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> 
>>>  
>>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>> 
>>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Drake
>>> Athens Electric
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> List-Archive: 
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>> 
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
>>> <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> List-Archive: 
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>> 
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>> 
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
>>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey All,

Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information 
for the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below?


 * Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but
   does give 38MWh warranty

see analysis sheet here: 
https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf


that sheet says  "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are 
expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the 
Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd 
Set of lead-acid batteries."


That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in 
it than that for an expensive LFP!  Can't find a reference anywhere.  38 
MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life 
(@DOD rating):  NA"  Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty 
they don't seem to want to venture.  It's the most expensive of the 
options listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest 
quality recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but 
would love to know the top end cycle figure.


 * Fortress EVault (18KWH)  (Spec sheet says 6000)
 * Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles)
 * Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%)
 * Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD

Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life 
whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it?  same chemistry? so 
is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling?


Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP?  or is that 
not so much a curve as a flat line?


thanks!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
VillageLab
Village Power Design
www.villagelab.net <http://www.villagelab.net>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~




Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM:
Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much 
higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.


Richard


On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi William,

I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh
based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be
used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other.

Jay

Peltz power.

For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a
371 amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh
Retail is $400

3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh
$400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh
10 years of 50% cycling daily

Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400
amp hr. 2.4 kWh
$325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh.
3.8 yrs life

Compare to say BI
$1000 kWh roughly.
If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh.
27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
However, you have a massive upfront money cost.
And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And
many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100%
daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to
95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%.
Cost per kWh goes to $.12.





On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:



Friends:

I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries
and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that
comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue
Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a
cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?

I am using these parameters:

1.DOD for flooded L16s: 50%

2.DOD for Blue Planet: 100%

I hope I am wrong.

Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000
AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded
batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity
in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus
100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9
cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating
currents in this many parallel strings?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
*Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
    *To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodallianc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Kirk Herander]

The cost sounds accurate, considering Blues are 2.5 to 3x the cost of LG Resu's 
for instance. To minimize sticker-shock, remember they are rated for 8000 
0-100%SOC cycles (that's 21 years daily). And certified immune from thermal 
runaway.

I assume we are talking 48v here, not their 850v cabinets. BI 48v cabinets can 
contain up to 16kwh ea, max configuration is 448kw as I remember, -9- full 
cabinets is 144kw. You are ok there. A 16 kwh cabinet is rated for 320AH at a 
nominal 50 vdc (-8- 2kwh mods @ 40 ahr ea.).

The key is the on-board smart battery management unit, BMU, made by a company 
called Ageto. it will manage charge and discharge evenly down to the 2kwh 
battery module level. Each module even has a solid-state "regulator" visible 
from the front.

No worries about different cable lengths, inverter/load feed position on the 
battery bus, etc, as in flooded cell design.

I've found when paralleling cabinets together, you will be on your own to 
properly size and protect a DC combiner bus/cabinet.

On 8/11/2020 9:04:41 AM, William Miller  wrote:
Friends:
 
I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic.  I 
have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product.  I 
come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable 
amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery 
array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?
 
I am using these parameters:
 
1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
 
I hope I am wrong.
 
Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For 
example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of 
projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets 
(again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to 
install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating 
currents in this many parallel strings?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
William Miller
 
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
 
Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best 
battery you will install.
Jerry
 
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org]> wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

--
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org]

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
[http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org]

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
[http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org]

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm]

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org]___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Richard Scott]

Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much
higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.

Richard


On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi William,
>
> I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based
> on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use
> this same formula to compare all batteries to each other.
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
> For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 amp
> hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh
> Retail is $400
>
> 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh
> $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh
> 10 years of 50% cycling daily
>
> Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr.
> 2.4 kWh
> $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh.
> 3.8 yrs life
>
> Compare to say BI
> $1000 kWh roughly.
> If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh.
> 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
> However, you have a massive upfront money cost.
> And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many
> lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s
> assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable
> amount is actually 85%, not 100%.
> Cost per kWh goes to $.12.
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
> arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced
> the product.  I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable
> amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of
> a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?
>
>
>
> I am using these parameters:
>
>
>
> 1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
>
> 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
>
>
>
> I hope I am wrong.
>
>
>
> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For
> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of
> projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9
> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it
> practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for
> circulating currents in this many parallel strings?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
>
>
>
> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
> best battery you will install.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jay]

Hi William,

I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based on the 
number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use this same 
formula to compare all batteries to each other. 

Jay

Peltz power. 

For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 amp hr 
at 6v  or 2.226 kWh 
Retail is $400 

3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh 
$400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh 
10 years of 50% cycling daily 

Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. 2.4 kWh 
$325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. 
3.8 yrs life

Compare to say BI
$1000 kWh roughly. 
If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. 
27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
However, you have a massive upfront money cost. 
And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many lithium in 
the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s assume you start 
the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, 
not 100%.  
Cost per kWh goes to $.12.  




> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> Friends:
>  
> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic.  
> I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product.  
> I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable 
> amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery 
> array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?
>  
> I am using these parameters:
>  
> 1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%
> 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%
>  
> I hope I am wrong.
>  
> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For 
> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of 
> projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 
> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it 
> practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for 
> circulating currents in this many parallel strings?
>  
> Thanks in advance.
>  
> William Miller
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jerry Shafer
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery
>  
> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best 
> battery you will install.
> Jerry
>  
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM  wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drake
> Athens Electric
> 
> -- 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

The BMS in each system will balance under charge and protect hi
discharge currents in multiple battery systems. This is typical in multiple
Li batteries. I would expect them to do this BP. I have seen this with 20
of the AES Li batts. No problems with circulating currents. I would expect
you to have had this with the AGM banks. Ouch too many strings. 

The cost
is missing some data for me at a glance. LFP has always been a minimum of 2
times more when I look. The costing also depends on them lasting the full
warranty and someone with deep pockets to back it up. Hope this helps.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:09:00 -0700, William Miller 
wrote:   

Friends: 

I am hoping y'all can tell me I am doing something
wrong with my arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet
batteries and priced the product. I come up with math that indicates that
comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5
times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.
Can this be true? 

I am using these parameters: 

1. DOD for flooded L16s:
50% 

2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% 

I hope I am wrong. 

Also, we often
install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example, we
installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects. To
acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again
50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it practical to
install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for circulating
currents in this many parallel strings? 

Thanks in advance. 

William
Miller 

FROM: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [3]] ON BEHALF OF Jerry
Shafer
SENT: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
TO: RE-wrenches
SUBJECT: Re:
[RE-wrenches] Best Battery 

Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue
Planet battery systems, best battery you will install.  

Jerry   

On Sun,
Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM  wrote:   

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion
battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

--

___
List sponsored by Redwood
Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [5]

Change
listserver email address &
settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[6]

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[7]

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8]

Check
out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org [9]   


Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[4]
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
[5]
mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
[6]
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[7]
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[8]
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
[9]
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[William Miller]

Friends:



I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced
the product.  I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable
amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of
a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?



I am using these parameters:



1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50%

2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%



I hope I am wrong.



Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For
example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of
projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9
cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it
practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for
circulating currents in this many parallel strings?



Thanks in advance.



William Miller





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery



Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best
battery you will install.

Jerry



On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

-- 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jerry Shafer]

Kirk
I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue
planet
Jerry

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf
>
> This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback
> compatible list.
>
> In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim
> in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely
> to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start
> almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge,
> and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I
> can share my setpoints if anyone is interested.
>
> This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have
> reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can
> also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible
> devices).
>
> In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire
> kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA
> bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55
> hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year.
>
> I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their
> documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you
> head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to
> battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one
> cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf
> components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage
> system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a
> listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with
> them getting all the details straight.
>
> On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
> Hi Kirk,
>
> Can you explain why it wouldnt work?
>
> Just setpoints.
>
> Jay
>
> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> 
> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue
> Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries.
> The newer FXR series are.
> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration,
> etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that
> older FX inverters are not compatible.
> Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.
>
> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org <
> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
> a 2600 W array.
>
> ---
>
>
> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> > Hello Wrenches,
> >
> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Drake
> > Athens Electric
> >
> > --
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> >
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >
> > Change listserver email address & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List-Archive:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List rules & etiquette:
> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> >
> > Check out or update participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I agree on the Trace and Xantrex SW's for offgrid. Bullet proof and easy
to install. I could never go back though to not having the graphics that a
networked system enables. Just to easy to look at a 24 hour battery graph
and see that the battery charged. Also multiple banks can be looked at. The
AES/Schneider is almost what you want as far as plug and play. Just enter
time and date on SCP. No computer needed and SOC is shown on SCP, or out to
insight like my previous insight screen. Almost 5 o'clock somewhere:) 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

   

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

I agree, the AES has a much friendlier voltage range.  Thanks for 
sharing, Dave.  I also do not use the RE Optics, I've moved away from 
Outback as well, after having issues with the FXR line, tech support, 
and wiring in the tiny enclosure that comes with the Radians.  Had 
decent luck with Magnum, but always room for improvement too.  Honestly, 
nothing now is that much better than the old Trace SW line, and that had 
plenty of its own issues.


Still waiting for inverter comm to catch up with the rest of the world, 
and be a simple plug and play, connect via blue tooth, set all the 
parameters in a Windows/ easy to navigate screen with tech manuals all 
accessible right in the app's help menu



Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 3:40 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Hi Ray,

I guess it is not my last :)  I attached AES battery. Fortress is 
similar. AES quickstart on Schneider is program the time and date for 
config. You do not need a computer as the SCP can be used. Both are 
closed loop BMS to inverter/charger/mppt on xw and csw. I am hoping 
Outback will do something like this.


I have helped quite a few wrenches with getting the Insight monitoring 
going remotely. It is not any more difficult than optics which I run 
also. It is not easy, and the quickstart must be followed exactly. 
Attached a screen from 5 minutes back. It has been extremely reliable 
also.


Below is the case. My guess as to why this takes so long is that it is 
a UL cert issue for Schneider. Cost quite a bit of money for the 
testing or to change the range of LBCO. My guess only.


Date:   Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:29:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	"Solar Support EMEA 
(solar.support.e...@schneider-electric.com)" 




A new case was just created using On Line – CIB Tech Support Schneider 
Electric Industries SAS.


Case Message:865 LBCO max is 48 vdc, needs to be higher for some 
batteries like simplyphi.



  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:47:49 -0600, Ray  wrote:

Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues 
programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the 
internet via the customer's router?


What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  
Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't 
realize any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:




___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[jay]

Ah that was the metric I didn’t understand the 2-10, is minutes. 

got it

j

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 minutes. 
>  I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this.  Obviously simplyphi does need 
> LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from 2 minutes 
> default BTW.
> 
> I have not had your issues with tech support. Certainly room to improve but 
> not much different than Outback over the long haul. Let us agree to disagree. 
> I find Schneider to be the best for my requirements, 2nd is Outback.  I do 
> not use simplyphi. They are just too small of an offgrid battery and easy to 
> damage with XW and Radian. My last on this subject.
> 
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray  wrote:
> 
>> It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much higher 
>> LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix the 
>> fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire system 
>> is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV.  It creates an 
>> absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for 
>> it.  It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48.  We've 
>> used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely high 
>> efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc.  We can set the 
>> autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a 
>> problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house.  
>> Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical 
>> problem. 
>> 
>> Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout this 
>> problem.  Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back a week 
>> later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something we've 
>> already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought out the 
>> terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer dissatisfaction.  
>> They have yet to regain my support, and now after this latest experience, I 
>> have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider equipment.   
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>> Hey Ray,
>>> 
>>> Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious 
>>> because I will send this in again. I did last time and they said to make 
>>> sure the config person knows that you can also set the default LBCO 
>>> hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 
>>> seconds.
>>> 
>>> Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider 
>>> electronics. 
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and 
>>> as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is no external 
>>> monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be 
>>> reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason.  We've done 
>>> several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback 
>>> equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the 
>>> brands of inverters and charge controllers.
>>> 
>>> For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have the best 
>>> monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app)  and they are the only 
>>> Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware 
>>> of.  Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell 
>>> us to install the battery in a conditioned space.  Not a good answer for 
>>> many off grid systems in the mountains. 
>>> 
>>> I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it 
>>> requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC 
>>> code compliant to connect conduit to.  We had to modify it to allow a 2" 
>>> KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a 
>>> computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty 
>>> blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request)  Finally the 
>>> comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid 
>>> and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That 
>>> is another deal killer for some remote 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues 
programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the 
internet via the customer's router?


What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  
Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't realize 
any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 
minutes.  I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30
minutes. I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this. Obviously simplyphi
does need LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from
2 minutes default BTW. 

I have not had your issues with tech support.
Certainly room to improve but not much different than Outback over the long
haul. Let us agree to disagree. I find Schneider to be the best for my
requirements, 2nd is Outback. I do not use simplyphi. They are just too
small of an offgrid battery and easy to damage with XW and Radian. My last
on this subject.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray  wrote:   


It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much
higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix
the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire
system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV. It creates an
absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for
it. It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48. We've
used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely
high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc. We can set
the autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a
problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house.
Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical
problem.  

Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support
throughout this problem. Zero on site phone support, but we might get a
call back a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual:
something we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they
brought out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer
dissatisfaction. They have yet to regain my support, and now after this
latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider
equipment.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 8/10/20 8:03 AM,
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:  

Hey Ray, 

Your comment on Schneider
LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in
again. I did last time and they said to make sure the config person knows
that you can also set the default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the
LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 seconds. 

Zero probes here for me with
Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider electronics.   
Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[4]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  [5] wrote: 


My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002,
and as the name implies, they are simple to install. There is no external
monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be
reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason. We've done
several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback
equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the
brands of inverters and charge controllers. 

For smaller systems, the LiFe
Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth
to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution
for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other battery companies have
just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a
conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the
mountains.  

I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over
discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did not find their
enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify
it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also
awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it
does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's
request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never
designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet
connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote
projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the
monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was
good though. 

Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed
over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have
a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the
LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being
considered for future projects.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much 
higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't 
fix the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the 
entire system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV.  It 
creates an absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is 
no reason for it.  It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go 
above 48.  We've used other brands of inverters and had excellent 
results with extremely high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen 
run time, etc. We can set the autostart on the generator to start 
higher, but as soon as there is a problem with the generator, we're snow 
shoeing in to save the house.  Already done it 3 times this past Winter, 
so no, this is not a hypothetical problem.


Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout 
this problem.  Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back 
a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something 
we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought 
out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer 
dissatisfaction.  They have yet to regain my support, and now after this 
latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with 
Schneider equipment.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Hey Ray,

Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? 
Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they 
said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the 
default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 
seconds up to 600 seconds.


Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider 
electronics.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray  wrote:

My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 
2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is 
no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each 
battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any 
reason.  We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery 
replacements with older Outback equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice 
programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge 
controllers.


For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have 
the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app)  and they 
are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather 
charging that I'm aware of.  Other battery companies have just given 
us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a 
conditioned space.  Not a good answer for many off grid systems in 
the mountains.


I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over 
discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their 
enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to.  We had to 
modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally 
are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for 
batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected 
at the customer's request)  Finally the comm system is based on the 
E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a 
constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That is another 
deal killer for some remote projects.  Internet connectivity is great 
when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that 
connection.  Their tech support was good though.


Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, 
which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries.  We currently have a 
system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be 
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy 
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of 
the LBCO.  Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not 
even being considered for future projects.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had 
used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander > wrote:


For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or
Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion
LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages,
duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why
Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Kirk Herander]

http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf 
[http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf]


This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback 
compatible list.

In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in 
the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be 
used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost 
PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily 
do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my 
setpoints if anyone is interested.

This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable 
internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and 
use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices).

In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh 
capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. 
BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, 
compared to at least 250+ same time last year. 

I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their 
documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you 
head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery 
combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they 
need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated 
and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 
1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I 
have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight.
On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
Hi Kirk,

Can you explain why it wouldnt work?

Just setpoints. 

Jay

On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:



For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) 
older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer 
FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. 
to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX 
inverters are not compatible. 
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
 wrote:
P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
a 2600 W array.

---


On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hey Ray, 

Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand?
Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and
they said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the
default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up
to 600 seconds. 

Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress
with Schneider electronics.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50
-0600, Ray  wrote:

My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has
been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to
install. There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on
each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any
reason. We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements
with older Outback equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat
sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. 

For smaller
systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring
(simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery
that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other
battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to
install the battery in a conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off
grid systems in the mountains.  

I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if
their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did
not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We
had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally
are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for
batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at
the customer's request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage,
which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and
internet connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote
projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the
monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was
good though. 

Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed
over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have
a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be
triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy
solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the
LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being
considered for future projects.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On
8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  I have outback FX systems operating
for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to
be 48 volts nominal. Jerry  
  On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander 
wrote:  For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue
Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries.
The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly
charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery
why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback
states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On 8/9/2020 5:40:39
PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org [4]  wrote: P.S. The system
consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with 
 a 2600 W array.


 --- 

 On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org [6]
wrote: 
 > Hello Wrenches, 
 > 
 > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use
with an off grid system? 
 > 
 > Thanks, 
 > 
 > Drake 
 > Athens Electric

 > 
 > -- 
 > ___ 
 > List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance 
 > 
 > List Address:
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [7] 
 > 
 > Change listserver email
address & settings: 
 >
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] 

> 
 > List-Archive: 
 >
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] 
 >

 > List rules & etiquette: 
 > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] 
 >

 > Check out or update participant bios: 
 > www.members.re-wrenches.org
[11] 
 ___ 
 List sponsored by
Redwood Alliance 

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [12] 


Change listserver email address & settings: 

http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13]


 List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] 


List rules & etiquette: 
 www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] 

 Check
out or update participant bios: 
 www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] 

___
 List sponsored by Redwood
Alliance

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [17]

 Change

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Kirk Herander]

For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) 
older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer 
FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. 
to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX 
inverters are not compatible. 
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.

On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
 wrote:
P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
a 2600 W array.

---


On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Darryl Thayer]

Kilovault Pl AGM for backup power, i am replacing C 15 year old backup
power batteries now much cheaper when cycling is infrequent.  By the way
most AGM need cycling.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 3:10 PM Ken Schaal  wrote:

>  Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with?
> Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs.
> Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered.
> Thanks
> Ken Schaal
> CommonWealth Solar
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate
>> open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of
>> this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
>> best battery you will install.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>
>>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Drake
>>> Athens Electric
>>>
>>> --
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ray]

My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, 
and as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is no 
external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that 
can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason.  We've 
done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older 
Outback equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet 
for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers.


For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have the 
best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the 
only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm 
aware of.  Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug 
and tell us to install the battery in a conditioned space.  Not a good 
answer for many off grid systems in the mountains.


I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, 
it requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their enclosure to 
be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify it to 
allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also 
awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but 
it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's 
request)  Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was 
never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and 
internet connection to monitor.  That is another deal killer for some 
remote projects.  Internet connectivity is great when available, just 
the monitoring can't be dependent on that connection.  Their tech 
support was good though.


Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, which 
is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries.  We currently have a system 
that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be triggered 
by the charge controller.  That is just an amazingly kludgy solution for 
a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the LBCO.  Until 
Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being considered 
for future projects.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used 
FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander > wrote:


For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or
Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion
LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are.
Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages,
duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why
Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.
Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.


On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org

mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:

P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an
MX60, with
a 2600 W array.

---


On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
 wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
>
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm


Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org 


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jay]

Hi Kirk,

Can you explain why it wouldnt work?

Just setpoints. 

Jay

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:
> 
> 
> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) 
> older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer 
> FXR series are.
> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. 
> to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX 
> inverters are not compatible. 
> Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.
>> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with 
>> a 2600 W array. 
>> 
>> --- 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: 
>> > Hello Wrenches, 
>> > 
>> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? 
>> > 
>> > Thanks, 
>> > 
>> > Drake 
>> > Athens Electric 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > ___ 
>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance 
>> > 
>> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> > 
>> > Change listserver email address & settings: 
>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> > 
>> > List-Archive: 
>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> > 
>> > List rules & etiquette: 
>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
>> > 
>> > Check out or update participant bios: 
>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org 
>> ___ 
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance 
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette: 
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios: 
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jerry Shafer]

I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used FX's
and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal.
Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue
> Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries.
> The newer FXR series are.
> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration,
> etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that
> older FX inverters are not compatible.
> Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries.
>
> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org <
> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with
> a 2600 W array.
>
> ---
>
>
> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> > Hello Wrenches,
> >
> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Drake
> > Athens Electric
> >
> > --
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> >
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >
> > Change listserver email address & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List-Archive:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List rules & etiquette:
> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> >
> > Check out or update participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[drake . chamberlin]

P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with 
a 2600 W array.


---


On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

--
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[jay]

HI Drake,

I think it really depends on what inverter you have, what the size is, what 
features you want and why do you want lithium?

For example to me, as they are black boxes, I will only use one that has a 
physical external monitor, not only a web based, which at this point is pretty 
much Discover.

Also Discover is the only battery that actually has a closed loop, ie it 
actually communicates with the inverter control system.  Currently that is 
SolARk and schneider.

And Discover is the only one of the more common popular batteries that is an 
actual battery OEM and its a big OEM that has been around for something like 75 
years. 

Simpliphi is the easiest drop it replacement. No monitoring, but its sealed so 
no mice/rodents/bug issues, no comm to inverter.

Blue Planet is too much hype to me, only has internet based monitoring, is on 
open cabinet which I worry about the issues above, no communication to inverter.
I do like that it is a modular approach so its lighter to assemble.  

There are a number of others too.

Before I spend tens of thousands of someones money I always check to see how 
long the company has been in biz, what their size/$ etc.  And I look to see how 
the corporate structure is set up, ie how big is the tech department?  Look at 
Blue Planet for example, big list of names, only 1 tech person.  

Good luck with the wild west of batteries,

Jay




> On Aug 9, 2020, at 10:12 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drake
> Athens Electric
> 
> -- 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Mark Frye]

I looked at this and decided on a new set of Rolls flooded lead calcium 
for my grid-tied backup system.


On 8/9/2020 1:10 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:

 Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with?
Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs.
Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered.
Thanks
Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:


My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both
communicate open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I
have installed as of this date. Always like Surette and US battery
for FLA.

  


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060*

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install.
Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

-- 
___

List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm


Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org 


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm


Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org 


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Ken Schaal]

 Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with?
Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs.
Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered.
Thanks
Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate
> open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of
> this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
> best battery you will install.
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>> Athens Electric
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate
open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of
this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA.  

Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer 
wrote:  Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install. Jerry  
  On Sun, Aug 9, 2020,
11:19 AM  wrote: Hello Wrenches,

 What is the best Li-Ion battery to use
with an off grid system?

 Thanks,

 Drake
 Athens Electric

 -- 

___
 List sponsored by Redwood
Alliance

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [4]

 Change
listserver email address & settings:

http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5]


List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6]


List rules & etiquette:
 www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7]

 Check out
or update participant bios:
 www.members.re-wrenches.org [8]
  


Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
[4]
mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
[5]
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[6]
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[7]
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
[8]
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best
battery you will install.
Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
> Athens Electric
>
> --
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[drake . chamberlin]

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

--
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org