Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

That is my point was that the only consideration that deals with overcharge 
that I could possibly think of is with systems that have a poor implementation 
of the frequency shift (like the older Schneiders).


I think that AC coupling gets a black eye from the old days and from brands 
that have bad implementations. They also get a black eye from installers who 
don't program the systems correctly.


So to set matters straight, IF you use good equipment, and IF you program it 
right, then you do get a nice taper charge with AC coupling. I know it hasn't 
always been that way, but we are talking about today, not 5 or 10 years ago. I 
have tested it and seen it myself. You get good smooth 3 stage charging, 
completely controlled by the battery-based inverter, and it's based on the 
inverter's voltage sensors. I'm not going to try to make any overarching 
statements beyond the brands I have hands-on experience with (Outback and 
Victron) but with these systems, it is no different than charging with a charge 
controller. The tapering effect is there whether it's open loop (traditional 
system with no comms) or whether it's closed loop, or SOC based.


Most people also misunderstand closed loop communications. With most brands, 
you can't see what's going on, but because Victron is open source, you can look 
in and see exactly what is going on. What I'm about to say may have some 
exceptions (Like the Sunny Island).
Generally speaking, the charge controllers and inverters still operate very 
similar to how they do with Lead Acid batteries, but instead of you manually 
putting in the charge voltage and current limitations, the BMS sends the Max 
Voltage and Max Current parameters, so the inverters and charge controllers 
just override their parameters based on the last instruction from the BMS. The 
BMS sends 3 parameters, Max Charge Voltage, Max Charge Current, and Max 
Discharge Current. When you start charging a discharged battery, the BMS will 
send parameters telling it to charge to a specified voltage not to exceed a 
specified maximum current (basically a bulk/absorb charge). Once the BMS 
decides that the battery is sufficiently balanced and at 100%, it ends this 
"absorb" charge by sending a new set of parameters to the system. The new set 
of parameters will have either a reduced voltage, a reduced current, or both. 
If heat is generated in the battery at any time, or if any one cell has too 
high of a voltage at any time, then the BMS will send a new set of parameters 
to reduce the charge voltage/current accordingly. The only element that SOC 
plays in the whole affair is helping the BMS to know when to send what charging 
parameters. Of course, if the batteries get too cold, the BMS will likely send 
a new set of parameters with charge current set to 0A. In any case, whether you 
like Closed Loop comms or whether you hate them, that has no bearing on AC 
coupled vs DC coupled.

So whether you have closed loop communications or whether you have open loop 
communications won't really determine too much how good or bad the AC coupling 
is for Lithium batteries... If you have it set up right with frequency-Watt, 
then you'll have a nice taper charge either way. Without closed loop, you'll 
have a nice taper charge at your absorb voltage, and you'll have tapered float 
voltage. With Closed-loop, you'll have a nice tapered charge dictated by the 
voltages and currents desired by the BMS.


I want to make one thing abundantly clear before I sign off... Most AC coupled 
systems I've seen are not programmed correctly... the installer never 
programmed the Grid-direct inverter to function correctly for frequency-watt. 
In this case, then everything I have said goes out the window, and AC coupled 
systems that are set up in this way are really bad for the batteries. If this 
mistake is made, then it is really hard on the batteries just like Steve 
Higgins was talking about, and it totally makes sense that this would void the 
warranty.

Have a great day! 73,
Kienan Maxfield


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<https://maxfieldso...@hotmail.com/>

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2023 8:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was covered 
with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with lead acid 
batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But LiPO batteries 
have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery from an overcharge 
scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery before catastrophe 
strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that 
talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't 
se

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

There isn't a failsafe system. For example, if you have a battery
temperature sensor dislodged from a lead acid battery, you can have
overcharged (or undercharged) batteries. And there is no perfect algorithm
for charging based on voltage, either. And as batteries age, you have to
adjust setpoints for optimum charging (which undoubtedly doesn't happen in
many cases). There have been cases where I wish lead acid batteries did
have a shutoff to avoid catastrophe (I've "boiled" the electrolyte out of
some unattended batteries before). Fortunately, they were my own and not a
customer's. I would agree that SOC is a pretty poor metric unless a BMS can
accurately relay that to an external charging system.

In my opinion, the safest and best way to AC Couple is with a single
manufacturer handling all aspects. The number of Enphase battery systems
out there is very quickly growing, and aside from wireless communication
issues in the past generation, I have not experienced or heard of any
significant issues. Battery charging safety is not impaired by
communication issues since the batteries simply will not charge or
discharge in this error state. And since the system is modular, a single
battery failure does not take down the entire system, which is admittedly a
problem with some AC Coupled solutions (the potential black start issue).
But Enphase has that resolved for systems using the IQ8 microinverters,
which have black start capability (they call it Sunlight Jump Start). Of
course, Enphase doesn't do off-grid, so it's a moot point for non-grid tied
systems.

There are a lot of unknowns in new technology, so I am tiptoeing into AC
Coupling with other solutions that have closed-loop communication.
Admittedly, I have my concerns, but I'm also pretty confident that the
manufacturers of the equipment are working very closely together based on
what I have seen. However, there is risk in that as well. I have concerns,
for example, with Sol-Ark starting to sell their own battery. I'm not
saying they will stop cooperating with other brands, but they do have an
incentive to push their own brand of battery, I would assume.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 10:54 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Thanks for contributing to this thread.  I did not realize it would create
> so much interest.  My main point is to establish a definition for
> AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that.  The next question
> to ask is AC-coupling a good thing?
>
>
>
> You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from
> damage.  They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem.  But what
> good is a system that shuts down?  When that happens someone has to roll a
> truck to reset the system.  We should not design outages into our systems.
>
>
>
> I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this
> forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop.  Their experience is that there
> were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system
> shut down.  I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do
> not have the same experience.
>
>
>
> Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real,
> measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of
> battery care.  Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on
> sate of charge.  State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious
> for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time.  Every SOC scheme I
> know needs to be recalibrated frequently.  The recalibration requires
> hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t
> recalibrate.
>
>
>
> I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by
> the manufacturer would be accurate.  I spoke with a tech support person
> from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS
> is not foolproof on calculating SOC.  I am not confident that any of them
> are.
>
>
>
> I am new to lithium battery systems.  It may be my inexperience talking,
> but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them
> unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully.  I do not believe
> AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any
> battery.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jas

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

t seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them
> unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully.  I do not believe
> AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any
> battery.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling
>
>
>
> I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was
> covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with
> lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But
> LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery
> from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery
> before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to
> modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude
> algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring.
> This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system
> architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and
> limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC
> Coupled scenario.
>
>
>
> With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the
> advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also
> greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it
> depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most
> sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For
> example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs
> are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved.
> So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has
> a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output,
> meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's
> nice to have that flexibility.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> William,
>
>
>
> My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said
>
> "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.
> These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging."
>
>
>
> I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you
> mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations
> are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get
> to those below.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed
> for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based
> inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They
> weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you
> can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input...
> that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the
> wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so
> I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think
> anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with
> the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully
> acceptable way to do it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount
> and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and
> with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I
> have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been
> working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had
> some real problems at first (major headache).
>
>
>
>
>
> Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm
> starting to try them out. I have not t

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Thanks for contributing to this thread.  I did not realize it would create
so much interest.  My main point is to establish a definition for
AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that.  The next question
to ask is AC-coupling a good thing?



You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from damage.
They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem.  But what good is
a system that shuts down?  When that happens someone has to roll a truck to
reset the system.  We should not design outages into our systems.



I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this
forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop.  Their experience is that there
were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system
shut down.  I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do
not have the same experience.



Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real,
measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of
battery care.  Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on
sate of charge.  State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious
for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time.  Every SOC scheme I
know needs to be recalibrated frequently.  The recalibration requires
hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t
recalibrate.



I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by
the manufacturer would be accurate.  I spoke with a tech support person
from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS
is not foolproof on calculating SOC.  I am not confident that any of them
are.



I am new to lithium battery systems.  It may be my inexperience talking,
but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them
unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully.  I do not believe
AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any
battery.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was
covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with
lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But
LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery
from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery
before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to
modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude
algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring.
This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system
architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and
limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC
Coupled scenario.



With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the
advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also
greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it
depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most
sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For
example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs
are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved.
So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has
a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output,
meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's
nice to have that flexibility.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956





On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

William,



My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said

"This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.
These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging."



I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you
mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations
are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get
to those below.











When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed for
this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25
years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't
"originally&

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

y rule 21
> grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the
> Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in
> changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted
> for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to
> reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I
> can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and
> Victron works smoothly as well.
>
> The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged
> power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply
> put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your
> PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the
> PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the
> loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter
> shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't
> know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this
> little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the
> point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is
> that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that
> when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn
> on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual.
>
> The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery
> based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV
> power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is
> lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than
> 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more
> than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the
> battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand
> upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple
> half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could
> effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on
> your loads.
>
> As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an
> AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been
> really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters
> so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends
> on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to
> get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and
> report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen.
> With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through
> Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one
> brand.
>
> So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but
> these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not
> all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system.
>
> Thanks,
> Kienan
>
>
> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution*
> *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com *
> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*
> *www.distribution.solar*
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM
> *To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Cc:* Jerry Shafer 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling
>
> AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with
> outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and
> charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a
> genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the
> any DC side connection.
> Funtimes
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
>
>
> I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
> with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
> AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
> frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?
>
>
>
> I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
> you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
> the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
> manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
> from each of the manufacturers:
>
>
>
> Sol-arc:  From the manual

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

V with less battery 
based inverter, depending on your loads.

As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an AC 
coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been really 
leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters so that you 
can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends on the brand 
you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to get this 
information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and report it on 
their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. With some brands, 
you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through Victron's monitoring. It 
almost makes it seamless as though it was all one brand.

So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but these 
days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not all of 
which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM
To: William Miller ; RE-wrenches 

Cc: Jerry Shafer 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with 
outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and 
charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a genny 
it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the any DC side 
connection.
Funtimes

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

Jay:



I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate with 
any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter AC output. 
 The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and frequency before it 
can start up.  How else could this work?



I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to you 
like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming the 
inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the 
manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information from 
each of the manufacturers:



Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen input 
to an output and make that your connection point.  “A full AC coupled solar 
system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is limited.”



EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4 
inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the 
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The EG4 
abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- 
There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is pretty 
inadequate on this point but they do provide a 
video<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI_channel=EG4Electronics>.



Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for 
AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual:  It is forbidden to 
connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  That is because when 
AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.



So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter 
inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output.  In 
all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled 
battery charging.



I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery 
charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output 
frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a work-around, not 
a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear there is 
little control over battery charging voltage.  These systems do not support 
three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can.



When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain 
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this 
article.<https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>



There are limited advantages to AC coupling:



•AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This is 
no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.



•AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has 
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most batteries 
can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, so I would 
hesitate to recommend this.



In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is a 
crude affair.  I am not a fan.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascade

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with
outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and
charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a
genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the
any DC side connection.
Funtimes

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jay:
>
>
>
> I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
> with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
> AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
> frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?
>
>
>
> I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
> you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
> the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
> manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
> from each of the manufacturers:
>
>
>
> Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen
> input to an output and make that your connection point.  “*A full AC
> coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is
> limited.”*
>
>
>
> EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4
> inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the
> Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The
> EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed
> level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is
> pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI_channel=EG4Electronics>.
>
>
>
> Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for
> AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual*:  It is
> forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  *That is
> because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.
>
>
>
> So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery
> inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an
> output.  In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of
> AC-coupled battery charging.
>
>
>
> I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the
> battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift
> the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a
> work-around, not a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is
> pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage.  These
> systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge
> controller can.
>
>
>
> When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain
> conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this
> article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>
>
>
>
> There are limited advantages to AC coupling:
>
>
>
> ·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.
> This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.
>
>
>
> ·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that
> has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most
> batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided,
> so I would hesitate to recommend this.
>
>
>
> In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters
> is a crude affair.  I am not a fan.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling
>
>
>
> I’m going to both agree and disagree
>
>
>
> Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is
> correct.
>
>
>
> Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac
> coupling into the inverter directly.
>
> Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.
>
>
>
> And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not
> designed for ac coupling.
>
> Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any
> internal control and required external relay control to prevent over

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?



I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
from each of the manufacturers:



Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “*A full AC
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is
limited.”*



EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4
inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed
level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is
pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI_channel=EG4Electronics>.



Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for
AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual*:  It is
forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  *That is
because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.



So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter
inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output.
In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled
battery charging.



I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery
charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output
frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a work-around,
not a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear
there is little control over battery charging voltage.  These systems do
not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can.



When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this
article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>



There are limited advantages to AC coupling:



·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This
is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.



·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided,
so I would hesitate to recommend this.



In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is
a crude affair.  I am not a fan.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I’m going to both agree and disagree



Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is
correct.



Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac
coupling into the inverter directly.

Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.



And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not
designed for ac coupling.

Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any
internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge.



Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have  frequently shift which works with
newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While
creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz.





Jay











On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Friends:



I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
think this definition needs to be clarified.



Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
these diagrams come through):







A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC
coupled.



Here is an AC-coupled system:







What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
careful consideration to avoid battery over

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

And just to muddy the waters a little, 2023 NEC uses AC Connected and DC
connected wording in place of coupled. Same concept, new name.

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 5:01 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Agreed and we'll understand the differences, all of our SMA SI systems
> utilize both dc charging and AC coupled charging.
>
>
> Roland Shackelford
>
> President / Owner
>
> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162
>
> Office 808.775.7410
>
> Mobile 808.938.9239
>
> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc.
> 
>
> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust,
> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru
>
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
> understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
> think this definition needs to be clarified.
>
>
>
> Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
> these diagrams come through):
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not*
> AC coupled.
>
>
>
> Here is an AC-coupled system:
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
> power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
> inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
> careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging.
>
>
>
> Do we have consensus on this definition?
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Roland - RES via RE-wrenches]

Agreed and we'll understand the differences, all of our SMA SI systems utilize both dc charging and AC coupled charging.Roland ShackelfordPresident / OwnerNABCEP PVIP #091209-162Office 808.775.7410Mobile 808.938.9239Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc." Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - SadhguruOn Oct 28, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through):  A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is not AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system:  What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power backwards through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’m going to both agree and disagree Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is correct. Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac coupling into the inverter directly. Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not designed for ac coupling. Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have  frequently shift which works with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. JayOn Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through):  A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is not AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system:  What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power backwards through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

I agree totally with your drawings.

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 4:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
> understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
> think this definition needs to be clarified.
>
>
>
> Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
> these diagrams come through):
>
>
>
>
>
> A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not*
> AC coupled.
>
>
>
> Here is an AC-coupled system:
>
>
>
>
>
> What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
> power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
> inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
> careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging.
>
>
>
> Do we have consensus on this definition?
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Solar Edge, pre HD Wave

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

Sam,
Thanks for pointing me in that direction. It looks like you can update some
of the grid protection settings, although I am not sure if that will allow
for freq-watt control. My LG rep told me to use CA rule 21 grid profile,
but I am not sure if there is something like that on the old A series
inverters.

Cheers,
Dave

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:07 AM Sam Haraldson 
wrote:

> Good Morning, Dave,
>
> Take a look at this pdf and see if the info about setting up "Grid
> Protection" gets you anywhere.  Starting on page three it shows how to make
> the Vmin/max and Fmin/max for screened inverters.  What I can't verify for
> you is whether the A series has the same menu structure as highlighted in
> this document or not.
>
>
> https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/viewing_grid_protection_values.pdf
>
> Cheers,
> Sam
>
>
> [image: OnSite Energy]
> 
>
> SAM HARALDSON
> Field Operations Director
> (406) 551-6135
> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715
> Locally owned and operated since 2012
> [image: B Corporation]
> 
>


-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Solar Edge, pre HD Wave

[Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches]

Good Morning, Dave,

Take a look at this pdf and see if the info about setting up "Grid
Protection" gets you anywhere.  Starting on page three it shows how to make
the Vmin/max and Fmin/max for screened inverters.  What I can't verify for
you is whether the A series has the same menu structure as highlighted in
this document or not.

https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/viewing_grid_protection_values.pdf

Cheers,
Sam


[image: OnSite Energy]


SAM HARALDSON
Field Operations Director
(406) 551-6135
1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715
Locally owned and operated since 2012
[image: B Corporation]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?

[Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches]

Utilities have used and continue to use this method of control for their
own generators, except they refer to it as Droop Control. In addition to
Frequency/Watt response Voltage/VAR response is also used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droop_speed_control

Building inverters that mimic the behaviour of spinning generators is a
great development as some jurisdictions now require, for example,
ride-through capability when brown-outs occur, rather than the older
requirement for inverters to simply turn off when voltage or frequency
dropped below certain limits, which just exacerbated brown-outs.
Essentially an inverter can be programmed to have "inertia" just like a big
spinning generator.
Larger grid-interactive inverters have done this for a while, with very
complex settings, but we are now seeing smaller residential and
commercial inverters with similar capabilities.
This industry keeps evolving and improving, which is great for keeping us
on our toes and I find it very exciting.


*Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
e...@vecoop.ca
T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
*VIRIDIANENERGY.CA <https://viridianenergy.ca/>*

* <https://viridianenergy.ca/>*


On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 at 07:08, Windy Dankoff via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>
> As co-author of upcoming book "The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping", we
> have expanded its definition to include micro and national grid-tied
> systems in which pumping is synchronized with power availability from PV. I
> had known about frequency-based load control for microgrids (from an
> SMA-based microgrid I toured in Israel). I had no idea it was a happening
> system on public grids until I read your response here. I love how it
> requires no communication lines or digital signals. It's a "natural" and
> logical concept from the old days of spinning generators under varying load.
>
> I see your PG reference, but is there also a reference text you can
> recommend that I can use in the book as a universal explanation of how this
> works?  It can be SMA documentation, or other ref.  You can reply here if
> it's useful to the list, and/or contact me off-line.
>
> Thanks!  – Windy
>
> On Dec 1, 2022, at 5:47 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> wrote:
>
> *From: *Harry Mahon 
> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?*
> *Date: *December 1, 2022 at 5:47:18 PM MST
> *To: *RE-wrenches 
>
>
> Definitely it is possible for newer grid-interactive inverters.  However,
> for grid-tied operation, the utility that runs the grid sets the rules (and
> sets the setpoints as it were), and it can be confusing
>
> Looking at PG’s Rule 21 tarriff (submitted Aug 12, 2022, effective Nov
> 4, 2022) Freq-Watt reuirements are:
> “When system frequency exceeds 60.036 Hz, the active power output produced
> by the Smart Inverter shall be reduced by 50% of real power nameplate
> rating per hertz (5% of real power nameplate rating reduction per 0.1
> hertz)”
> Bottom of Sheet 207 of :
> https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_RULES_21.pdf
>
> So a 5kW inverter needs to ramp at 2.5kW/Hz.  But if it is only producing
> 2.5kW, it has to be at 0W at 61.036Hz.
>
> Mike
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?

[Windy Dankoff via RE-wrenches]

Dear Mike,

As co-author of upcoming book "The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping", we have 
expanded its definition to include micro and national grid-tied systems in 
which pumping is synchronized with power availability from PV. I had known 
about frequency-based load control for microgrids (from an SMA-based microgrid 
I toured in Israel). I had no idea it was a happening system on public grids 
until I read your response here. I love how it requires no communication lines 
or digital signals. It's a "natural" and logical concept from the old days of 
spinning generators under varying load.

I see your PG reference, but is there also a reference text you can recommend 
that I can use in the book as a universal explanation of how this works?  It 
can be SMA documentation, or other ref.  You can reply here if it's useful to 
the list, and/or contact me off-line.

Thanks!  – Windy

> On Dec 1, 2022, at 5:47 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:
> 
> From: Harry Mahon  <mailto:michael.ma...@sma-america.com>>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?
> Date: December 1, 2022 at 5:47:18 PM MST
> To: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> 
> 
> Definitely it is possible for newer grid-interactive inverters.  However, for 
> grid-tied operation, the utility that runs the grid sets the rules (and sets 
> the setpoints as it were), and it can be confusing
>  
> Looking at PG’s Rule 21 tarriff (submitted Aug 12, 2022, effective Nov 4, 
> 2022) Freq-Watt reuirements are:
> “When system frequency exceeds 60.036 Hz, the active power output produced by 
> the Smart Inverter shall be reduced by 50% of real power nameplate rating per 
> hertz (5% of real power nameplate rating reduction per 0.1 hertz)”
> Bottom of Sheet 207 of : 
> https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_RULES_21.pdf
>  
> So a 5kW inverter needs to ramp at 2.5kW/Hz.  But if it is only producing 
> 2.5kW, it has to be at 0W at 61.036Hz.
>  
> Mike

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling with Dual Radians

[Peter Giroux]

Jeremy

  With a mate 3 and a hub. Wire the out- puts into their own breaker in a 
service panel then out to the critical loads panel
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jeremy Rodriguez 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 12:30 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling with Dual Radians


  I have been reading Outbacks AC coupling note.
  It refers to using only a single Radian Inverter.
  Is it possible to duplicate the equipment if more PV is installed, and use 
two Radians, with their outputs paralleled to the critical loads panel?
  I see it recommends 6Kw of PV with an 8048 Radian


  Jeremy
  All Solar 

  CO USA





--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
You can still AC couple Outback, they just eliminated tha option because of
breaker issues but it can still be done using contactors all set to
normally open and configured by DC Voltage. With Outback there is no real
limit to battery capasity like you have with both the new SMA sunny boy
storage and the Solar Edge, both high voltage and very limited capasity due
to battery management abilities. The same way you do load sheding you can
do power input reduction control.
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 2:30 AM Howie Michaelson 
wrote:

>
> I've liked the StorEdge design of SolarEdge since it was first introduced
> a few years ago, but have never done it even seen an instant with it. What
> are others experience with it, especially compared to AC coupled battery
> backup solutions?
> Howie
>
> On Jul 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Scot Arey"  wrote:
>
> Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported.
>
> Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and
> integration.
>
> Scot
>
> Get Outlook for Android 
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &
> Wind"  wrote:
>
> Larry,
>> I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion
>> battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We
>> have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like
>> the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system
>> efficiency.
>>
>> We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback
>> Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout
>> relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup,
>> documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the
>> “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often
>> cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle.
>> My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with
>> the Radian.
>>
>> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
>> Principal
>> Whidbey Sun & Wind
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>> WA Electrical Administrator
>> office: 360.678.7131
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown  wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC
>> Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
>> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for
>> off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
>> Any recommendations?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Larry
>>
>> Larry Brown
>> Sun Mountain
>> 845-657-8096
>> sunmount...@netstep.net
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Howie Michaelson]

I've liked the StorEdge design of SolarEdge since it was first introduced a
few years ago, but have never done it even seen an instant with it. What
are others experience with it, especially compared to AC coupled battery
backup solutions?
Howie

On Jul 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Scot Arey"  wrote:

Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported.

Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and integration.

Scot

Get Outlook for Android 




On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &
Wind"  wrote:

Larry,
> I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion
> battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We
> have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like
> the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system
> efficiency.
>
> We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback
> Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout
> relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup,
> documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the
> “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often
> cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle.
> My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with
> the Radian.
>
> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
> Principal
> Whidbey Sun & Wind
> Renewable Energy Systems
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> WA Electrical Administrator
> office: 360.678.7131
>
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown  wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Scot Arey]

Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported.




Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and integration.




Scot




Get Outlook for Android







On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" 
 wrote:










Larry,I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion 
battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We have a 
few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like the design 
concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system efficiency.
We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback Radian, 
and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout relay. We won’t 
do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, documentation, and support is a 
royal PITA, and have had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even 
when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like 
at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that Outback doesn’t 
support AC-coupling any more with the Radian.


Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. 
Principal
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP PV Installation Professional
WA Electrical Administrator
office: 360.678.7131





On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown  wrote:
Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind]

Larry,
I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion battery. 
It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We have a few out 
there now for a few months without a problem. Really like the design concept of 
the storage on the PV side, increasing system efficiency.

We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback Radian, 
and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout relay. We won’t 
do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, documentation, and support is a 
royal PITA, and have had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even 
when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like 
at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that Outback doesn’t 
support AC-coupling any more with the Radian.

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. 
Principal
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP PV Installation Professional
WA Electrical Administrator
office: 360.678.7131



> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple 
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off 
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
> 
> Thanks
> Larry
> 
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Kirpal

Thanks for the recommendations
If you have a diagram that would be most helpful and generous
What Lithium Battery are you using with this configuration?

Much Appreciated
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:15 AM, Kirpal  wrote:

Larry.Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW 
inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter.  Outback  recommends a maximum 75% 
loading ratio when AC coupling.  We have used a simple solid state relay 
controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the SolarEdge or 
any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter when a desired 
battery voltage is reached.  
As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main battery 
technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow multistage 
charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching approximately 80% 
SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to taper charge (aside 
from frequency shift compatible inverters). But nowadays with Lithium 
batteries, which don't require multistage charging becoming more common this 
method of AC coupling is pretty attractive because the batteries don't care if 
they only reach a partial state of chargeEven though you can charge them 
more than 80% before kicking off the GT inverter.  We have used this method 
successfully in addition to having DC coupling present in the same system as 
well.
Let me know if you need a diagram.


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com 
541-299-0402

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>> wrote:
Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Jerry Shafer]

Larry
I have had very good luck with Outback both with the FX and the newer
Radian systems, have not tried this with the new "R" inverter system, we
have used the contactors to reduce production once the batteries are full
in the off gird application. Simple and strait forward and been good
Jerry

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:07 AM, Larry Brown 
wrote:

> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Peter Giroux]

Larry

   Outback Radians work great.

peter
- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Brown" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 10:07 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling


Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple 
with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off 
grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter

Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Bill Hennessy]

Larry--Forgot to add on the original post--you would need three Magnum 4448s to 
work w the 11.4 SolarEdge. Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com

  From: Larry Brown 
 To: RE-wrenches  
 Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 10:07 AM
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling
   
Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Kirpal]

 Larry.Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW
inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter.  Outback  recommends a maximum 75%
loading ratio when AC coupling.  We have used a simple solid state relay
controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the
SolarEdge or any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter
when a desired battery voltage is reached.
As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main
battery technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow
multistage charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching
approximately 80% SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to
taper charge (aside from frequency shift compatible inverters). But
nowadays with Lithium batteries, which don't require multistage charging
becoming more common this method of AC coupling is pretty attractive
because the batteries don't care if they only reach a partial state of
chargeEven though you can charge them more than 80% before kicking off
the GT inverter.  We have used this method successfully in addition to
having DC coupling present in the same system as well.
Let me know if you need a diagram.


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown 
wrote:

> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Kevin Eigel]

I am working with a similar situation. It looks like the Tesla Powerwall
will work.

Kevin Eigel
Ecohouse Solar

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 10:07 AM Larry Brown  wrote:

> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

You could ask them? I know the XW+ works fine with the SMA TL series grid
inverters.  Phone: +1 866-519-1470
Email:  re.techsupp...@schneider-electric.com   --Dave

> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple
> with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off
> grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks
> Larry
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> 845-657-8096
> sunmount...@netstep.net
>
>
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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A

[Tom Ruscitti]

I checked into the PRI strategy a few months back. An Outback 
applications engineer responded that while they were collaborating with 
SolarEdge at one time on the method, they don't recommend it any longer 
and were going to pull the tech note. The response also questioned 
whether SolarEdge still supports that. I'm not sure if that was 
referring to hardware capability or was code for "may not warranty 
systems doing that." I see the SolarEdge tech note is 4 years old as 
well. Might be worth checking into.


- Tom

Tom Ruscitti
Senior Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Mobile: (607) 220-7022
www.taitem.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Gary,

These Solar Edge inverters can use radio ripple control to change power
output.  Its a simple control strategy that allows control of the power
output presumably from a grid-operator.  You would need to enable the
RRCR.  Here is a paper about that
http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/power-reduction-control-application-note.pdf
You can use 5 VDC signals to perform the power control.  Below I pasted a
graph of how the inputs work from page 3 of that document :
[image: Inline image 1]

I believe Chris Mason suggested using an Arduino board to control these 4
inputs very easily, and that would be a nice option.  For your needs, I
think you can get away with two relays and a robust 5 VDC power supply.
You could drive the 1st relay coil with grid voltage.  Under normal
conditions, you'd apply 5VDC to pin 3 (L4) through the relay (NC contact).
Upon loss of grid, pin 3 goes to 0VDC, pin 5(L2) to 5VDC.  To drop to 0%
power, you may want to trigger based on battery voltage or the blackout
relay on the Outback.  I can't recall if there is a way to trigger a relay
based on SOC with the radian, but that would be a good option too.

I'd be curious to hear what you come up with, so please let us know.

Good luck

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Gary Willett 
wrote:

> Maverick:
>
> Thanks for responding. You've been very helpful in the past with my
> battery based solution questions.
>
> Daily load demand from the Protected Loads Panel is about 10kWh.
>
> With 5 average daily peak sun hours, and 75% charging efficiency, the
> battery bank will receive about 13kWh of solar charging per day. The
> battery bank will be sized for 2 days of autonomy to 80% DoD (2 or 3
> strings of 200RE batteries). A 6kW generator, which will be manually
> controlled, will provide charging assistance if the solar charging alone is
> not sufficient.
>
> The 10kW (ac) SE inverter and associated 10.7kWp PV array, using the
> "Power Reduction Control" function, would be limited to about 3.5kW (ac).
>
> Sizing the inverter and battery bank is not my issue - cranking back the
> output power of the SE grid-tied inverter is what I need help on.
>
> The "standard" Outback GSLC solution uses one "Power Reduction Control"
> relay (100% to 0%). I want to use two Outback activated relays, and the SE
> inverter's "Power Reduction Control" function to:
>
> (1) reduce the SE inverter power from 100% to 30% when the grid is down
> (relay #1)
>
> (2) reduce the SE inverter power from 30% to 0% when the Radian wants to
> totally shut down the SE inverter (relay #2)
>
> If this two-relay solution is possible, I do not have to kluge up a way to
> disconnect 70% of the PV array when the grid is down to keep the
> SE1A-US inverter from overloading the 4kW Radian inverter and its
> battery bank.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary Willett
> Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
> On 10/18/16 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown wrote:
>
> How many kWh are you shooting for?
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett  > wrote:
>
> Esteemed Wrenches:
>
> Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling with SolarEdge and the
> Outback Radian?
>
> I have a client with a SolarEdge SE1A-US inverter, equipped with 31
> SunPower X21-345 modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400 DC
> optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged into two strings of series
> connected optimizers: #1 = 16;  #2 = 15.
>
> The client wants to add a limited battery backup solution, and a 4kW
> inverter will serve the needs of the requisite protected loads panel.
>
> I am considering using the Outback Radian GS4048A inverter in conjunction
> with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center.
>
> I want to make a slight change to the PRI programming on the SolarEdge
> inverter, and add another relay contact to the Radian, to accommodate a 4kW
> Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter.
>
> This is my first AC coupling project with these systems. The analysis
> below is based solely on review of available documents on the Outback and
> SolarEdge web sites.
>
> Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gary Willett
> Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
>
> *References*:
>
> (1) *Outback Application Note "**AC Coupling OutBack Power Radian
> Inverters with SolarEdge N. American Inverters**"*
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/
> ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf
>
> (2) *Outback Application Note "**Adding the battery back-up power option
> to existing grid-tied PV/solar systems"*
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/
> flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf
>
> (3) *SolarEdge Application Note **"SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control
> Options"*
> http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_
> control_configuration.pdf
>
> *REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two*:
>
> The OutBack inverter 

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A

[Gary Willett]

  
  
Maverick:
Thanks for responding. You've been very helpful in the past with
  my battery based solution questions.
Daily load demand from the Protected Loads Panel is about 10kWh.
  

With 5 average daily peak sun hours, and 75% charging efficiency,
  the battery bank will receive about 13kWh of solar charging per
  day. The battery bank will be sized for 2 days of autonomy to 80%
  DoD (2 or 3 strings of 200RE batteries). A 6kW generator, which
  will be manually controlled, will provide charging assistance if
  the solar charging alone is not sufficient.
The 10kW (ac) SE inverter and associated 10.7kWp PV array, using
  the "Power Reduction Control" function, would be limited to about
  3.5kW (ac). 
Sizing the inverter and battery bank is not my issue - cranking
  back the output power of the SE grid-tied inverter is what I need
  help on.
The "standard" Outback GSLC solution uses one "Power Reduction
  Control" relay (100% to 0%). I want to use two Outback activated
  relays, and the SE inverter's "Power Reduction Control" function
  to:

  (1) reduce the SE inverter power from 100% to 30% when the grid
is down (relay #1)
  
  (2) reduce the SE inverter power from 30% to 0% when the Radian
wants to totally shut down the SE inverter (relay #2)
  

If this two-relay solution is possible, I do not have to kluge up
  a way to disconnect 70% of the PV array when the grid is down to
  keep the SE1A-US inverter from overloading the 4kW Radian
  inverter and its battery bank.
Regards,
  
  Gary Willett
  Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
On 10/18/16 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown
  wrote:


  
  How many kWh are you shooting for?
  
  
   

  
On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett 
  wrote:


  
   Esteemed
Wrenches:

Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling with
SolarEdge and the Outback Radian?

I have a client with a SolarEdge SE1A-US inverter,
equipped with 31 SunPower X21-345 modules (10.7kWp) and
associated SolarEdge P400 DC optimizers. The DC
optimizers are arranged into two strings of series
connected optimizers: #1 = 16;  #2 = 15.

The client wants to add a limited battery backup
solution, and a 4kW inverter will serve the needs of the
requisite protected loads panel.

I am considering using the Outback Radian GS4048A
inverter in conjunction with the GSLC175-AC-120/240
AC-Coupling Center.

I want to make a slight change to the PRI programming on
the SolarEdge inverter, and add another relay contact to
the Radian, to accommodate a 4kW Outback inverter AC
coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter.

This is my first AC coupling project with these systems.
The analysis below is based solely on review of
available documents on the Outback and SolarEdge web
sites. 

Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Gary Willett
Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC

References:
(1) Outback
Application Note "AC
  Coupling OutBack Power Radian Inverters with
  SolarEdge N. American Inverters"
  http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf
  
  (2) Outback Application Note "Adding the battery back-up
  power option to existing grid-tied PV/solar
  systems"
  http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf
  
  
  
  (3) SolarEdge Application Note "SolarEdge Inverters, Power
  Control Options"
  http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf

REF (2); Page 9 of 14 -
  Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two: 
The OutBack inverter power rating
  should be 1.25% of the GT inverter power rating. This
  guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not
  overwhelm the charging circuitry in the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A

[Maverick Brown]

How many kWh are you shooting for?

 
> On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett  
> wrote:
> 
> Esteemed Wrenches:
> 
> Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling with SolarEdge and the Outback 
> Radian?
> 
> I have a client with a SolarEdge SE1A-US inverter, equipped with 31 
> SunPower X21-345 modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400 DC 
> optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged into two strings of series 
> connected optimizers: #1 = 16;  #2 = 15.
> 
> The client wants to add a limited battery backup solution, and a 4kW inverter 
> will serve the needs of the requisite protected loads panel.
> 
> I am considering using the Outback Radian GS4048A inverter in conjunction 
> with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center.
> 
> I want to make a slight change to the PRI programming on the SolarEdge 
> inverter, and add another relay contact to the Radian, to accommodate a 4kW 
> Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter.
> 
> This is my first AC coupling project with these systems. The analysis below 
> is based solely on review of available documents on the Outback and SolarEdge 
> web sites. 
> 
> Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gary Willett
> Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
> 
> References:
> (1) Outback Application Note "AC Coupling OutBack Power Radian Inverters with 
> SolarEdge N. American Inverters"
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> (2) Outback Application Note "Adding the battery back-up power option to 
> existing grid-tied PV/solar systems"
> http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> (3) SolarEdge Application Note "SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control Options"
> http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf
>  
> 
> REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two: 
> The OutBack inverter power rating should be 1.25% of the GT inverter power 
> rating. This guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not overwhelm the 
> charging circuitry in the OutBack inverter if the load demand goes to zero 
> and all available GT inverter power is flowing to the OutBack inverter.
> 
> With the 4kW GS4048A inverter, the PV power rating is therefore limited to 
> 3.2kW. This is 30% of the nameplate rating of the PV array (3.2/10.7).
> REF (3); Page 4 of 5 - SolarEdge/OutBack Radian Wiring Diagram:
> On the male connector that fits into the PRI connector on the SolarEdge PCB, 
> two wires are connected from the OutBack GSLC load center 12V relay 
> (OBR-16-DIN). 
> When activated, a normally open contact (NO) of the Outback OBR-16-DIN 12V 
> relay supplies +5V from "pin 8" to "pin 6" of the SolarEdge inverter's "Power 
> Reduction Interface (PRI) port". 
> REF (1); Page 3 of 5 - SolarEdge Setup / Programming:
> Per the App Note, when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, the 
> OBR-16-DIN 12V relay is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 1 of the PRI. 
> This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 0%.
> "DEFAULT" SolarEdge Programming
>  <100,1,00,Y> meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> 0001 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> For my project, when the grid is down, the SolarEdge inverter must be limited 
> to 30% power. I want to use the second NO/NC contact on the OBR-16-DIN 12V 
> relay to accomplish this. Not yet sure exactly how to accomplish this in the 
> Radian programming, but here's how I want it to function:
> (a) when the grid is down, the second OBR contact, connected to bit 2 of the 
> PRI, is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 2. This takes the SolarEdge 
> output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 30%.
> 
> (b) when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, a "1" is applied to bit 
> 1. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 30% to 0%.
> "PROPOSED" SolarEdge Programming
>  <100,1,00,Y> meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> 0001 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> 0010 <30,1.00,Y> meaning = 30% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> 0011 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
> Is this doable?
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A

[Drake]

It looks like way too much power to AC couple
with a 4KW Radian. Be sure to talk to an Outback
engineer in great detail before using the GSLC175AC-120/240.


At 10:54 PM 10/17/2016, you wrote:

Esteemed Wrenches:

Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling
with SolarEdge and the Outback Radian?

I have a client with a SolarEdge SE1A-US
inverter, equipped with 31 SunPower X21-345
modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400
DC optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged
into two strings of series connected optimizers: #1 = 16;Â  #2 = 15.

The client wants to add a limited battery backup
solution, and a 4kW inverter will serve the
needs of the requisite protected loads panel.

I am considering using the Outback Radian
GS4048A inverter in conjunction with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center.

I want to make a slight change to the PRI
programming on the SolarEdge inverter, and add
another relay contact to the Radian, to
accommodate a 4kW Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter.

This is my first AC coupling project with these
systems. The analysis below is based solely on
review of available documents on the Outback and SolarEdge web sites.

Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Gary Willett
Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC

References:
(1) Outback Application Note "AC Coupling
OutBack Power Radian Inverters with SolarEdge N. American Inverters"
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf

(2) Outback Application Note "Adding the battery
back-up power option to existing grid-tied PV/solar systems"
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf

(3) SolarEdge Application Note "SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control Options"
http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf

REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two:
The OutBack inverter power rating should be
1.25% of the GT inverter power rating. This
guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not
overwhelm the charging circuitry in the OutBack
inverter if the load demand goes to zero and all
available GT inverter power is flowing to the OutBack inverter.

With the 4kW GS4048A inverter, the PV power
rating is therefore limited to 3.2kW. This is
30% of the nameplate rating of the PV array (3.2/10.7).

REF (3); Page 4 of 5 - SolarEdge/OutBack Radian Wiring Diagram:
On the male connector that fits into the PRI
connector on the SolarEdge PCB, two wires are
connected from the OutBack GSLC load center 12V relay (OBR-16-DIN).

When activated, a normally open contact (NO) of
the Outback OBR-16-DIN 12V relay supplies +5V
from "pin 8" to "pin 6" of the SolarEdge
inverter's "Power Reduction Interface (PRI) port".

REF (1); Page 3 of 5 - SolarEdge Setup / Programming:
Per the App Note, when the Radian wants to shut
down the SolarEdge, the OBR-16-DIN 12V relay is
activated and a "1" is applied to bit 1 of the
PRI. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a
gradual manner, from 100% to 0%.

"DEFAULT" SolarEdge Programming
 <100,1,00,Y> meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
0001 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active

For my project, when the grid is down, the
SolarEdge inverter must be limited to 30% power.
I want to use the second NO/NC contact on the
OBR-16-DIN 12V relay to accomplish this. Not yet
sure exactly how to accomplish this in the
Radian programming, but here's how I want it to function:
(a) when the grid is down, the second OBR
contact, connected to bit 2 of the PRI, is
activated and a "1" is applied to bit 2. This
takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 30%.

(b) when the Radian wants to shut down the
SolarEdge, a "1" is applied to bit 1. This takes
the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 30% to 0%.

"PROPOSED" SolarEdge Programming
 <100,1,00,Y> meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
0001 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
0010 <30,1.00,Y> meaning = 30% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active
0011 <0,1.00,Y> meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active

Is this doable?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge

[Howie Michaelson]

Brian,
Thanks, it came through perfectly! Am I correct to assume that the SE
inverter will only respond to a PRI Port input signal to ramp output up and
down and not a frequency shift? I'll have to check if there is someway to
use that function with the XW. When I spoke with SolarEdge support, they
said they are not supporting this function anymore. Do you know if that
means SE won't supply technical support or that their inverters don't have
that capability any more?

Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

> Hi Howie,
>
>
>
> I don’t know if pdf attachments will show up on this list, but I am
attaching the OutBack tech note on AC-Coupling with SolarEdge
>
>
>
> If the attachment doesn’t go through, email me off-list.
>
>
>
> Brian
>
> AEE Solar
>
> bteitelb...@aeesolar.com
>
>
>
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Howie Michaelson
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 8:56 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge
>
>
>
> Hi all,
> Apparently SolarEdge is no longer officially supporting or warranting AC
Coupling - maybe because they now have the StorEdge option (has anyone
actually seen one for sale and/or operating). In any case, since I have
sold prior to missing that memo and am now in the position of installing a
battery backup system using an SE5000US and a Schneider XW5548, I am
needing to figure the details out without any support from either Schneider
or SolarEdge (SolarEdge tech support referred me to Outback tech support
saying Outback has recommendations for AC coupling with SE, but the techs I
spoke with at Outback are vague at best when talking about AC coupling with
any inverter and even less forthcoming when talking about SE).
>
> Does anyone know whether SE inverters still respond to frequency shift
and what those parameters are? I will install a failsafe relay to
disconnect the SE inverter upon high battery voltage, but it would be
useful to know what, if at all, the set points for power limiting are in
the SE inverter. Any info or leads would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>
> Sun Catcher
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
> 802-272-0004
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

If the inverter were in search, I would think that there would be no AC 
power produced by

the micro inverters at all because of anti-islanding.

boB


On 9/21/2015 4:40 PM, Jay wrote:

Nope wasn't in search when I had flicker.
If the loads were greater than the enphase production then no flicker.

If it was "charging" then there was flicker.

My vfx 3524 is 8+ years old, but I don't think that would be a factor.

Jay.



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:46 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote:



Wrenches
Check and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause 
issues like this.

Jerry



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


 Original message 
From: jay >
Date: 09/21/2015 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches >
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of 
Lights


Hi Matt,

I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX.
I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker 
to me.


On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the 
enphase the flicker when away.

But only 2 isn’t very real world.

In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work.

jay

peltz power
On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald > wrote:


I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop.  
I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with 
Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery 
backup system.


Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power 
is dropped.  The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough 
sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be 
making much power).


The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup.  Battery 
capacity is 370Ah.


I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way 
to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it.


Many thanks!

--
Matt Sherald
PIMBY Energy, LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
304-704-5943

www.getpimby.blogspot.com 
www.getpimby.com 


_





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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights

[Jay]

Nope wasn't in search when I had flicker. 
If the loads were greater than the enphase production then no flicker. 

If it was "charging" then there was flicker. 

My vfx 3524 is 8+ years old, but I don't think that would be a factor. 

Jay. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:46 PM, jerrysgarage01  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches
> Check and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause issues 
> like this.
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: jay  
> Date: 09/21/2015 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00) 
> To: RE-wrenches  
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights 
> 
> Hi Matt,
> 
> I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX.
> I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker to me.  
> 
> On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the enphase 
> the flicker when away.
> But only 2 isn’t very real world.
> 
> In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work.
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald  wrote:
>> 
>> I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop.  I was 
>> curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems 
>> that occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system.
>> 
>> Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is 
>> dropped.  The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to power 
>> up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much power).
>> 
>> The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup.  Battery capacity 
>> is 370Ah.
>> 
>> I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to 
>> mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it.
>> 
>> Many thanks!
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sherald
>> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
>> 304-704-5943
>> 
>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com
>> www.getpimby.com
>> 
>> 
>> _
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights

[jerrysgarage01]

WrenchesCheck and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause 
issues like this.Jerry


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: jay  
Date: 09/21/2015  6:58 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: RE-wrenches  
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights 

Hi Matt,
I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX.I 
didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker to me.  
On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the enphase 
the flicker when away.But only 2 isn’t very real world.
In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work.
jay
peltz power
On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald  wrote:
I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop.  I was 
curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems that 
occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system.

Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is 
dropped.  The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to 
power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much 
power).

The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup.  Battery capacity is 
370Ah.

I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to 
mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it.

Many thanks!
-- 
Matt Sherald
PIMBY Energy, LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943

www.getpimby.blogspot.com
www.getpimby.com




_


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge

[Chris Mason]

I'll tell you exactly how to do this, if I understand the SolarEdge
documentation. I am working on a similar project, but using a contactor to
disconnect three 10KW String inverters.
Forget the Radio Ripple. The SolarEdge has a simple four line control
system. SMA has the same thing on it's Power Control Module that plugs into
TL inverters.
You can use a Raspberry Pi or Arduino microcontroller to switch those four
lines to get the inverter output control you want. Both controllers have
accessory relay boards, but I suspect the General Purpose Input Outputs
would also suffice.

So once you are switching those control lines, you have control of the
inverters.

Now, what is the criteria you are using?
In pseudo code, it would be

If Grid_Power is present
   //Switch Inverters to 100%
   Set GPIO1 = 0
   Set GPIO2 = 0
   Set GPIO3 = 0
   Set GPIO4 = 1
else
 //Switch Inverters to 30%
   Set GPIO1 = 0
   Set GPIO2 = 1
   Set GPIO3 = 0
   Set GPIO4 = 0


then the question is, how do you sense grid power?
You can also turn on and off an Outback Radian 4048A inverter using the
microcontroller as the Radian has a contact for this purpose.
Pretty easy project



On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello wrenches,

 I have a request to design a modest battery backup system for a residence
 that has a 10 kW grid-tied Solar Edge system using a single SolarEdge
 Inverter SE1A- US.  I'd like to try to utilize the solar potential that
 we have on site.  One idea that I had was to use DC relay(s) to cut out a
 couple strings when the grid was out, dropping the PV input down to about
 3kW.  Has anyone ever tried this?

 I could easily get away with a ~4 kW battery-based inverter and would like
 to avoid stacking unnecessarily.

 Solar Edge also offers power output control through radio ripple control.
 I took a look at this paper on it
 http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/power-reduction-control-application-note.pdf.
 Off-the shelf it looks like I would need a computer to control the power
 output dynamically.  Perhaps I could activate the 5V K2 relay with a simple
 control scheme and drop the power to 30%, but I hesitate to dive in too
 deep.  Anyone worked with radio ripple control?

 Thanks

 --



 Mac Lewis

 *Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates*

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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge

[jay peltz]

Hi Mac,

It looks like they are doing all that work on the AC side.
If you do the DC side, you'll lose the comm from the optimizers causing error 
messages etc.

For the few times a year this will actually need to regulate, depending on the 
battery inverter  I'd install a AC relay and kill the whole array.
Simple, easy reliable.
And in the end you'd need to do this anyway even if you did some string  
disco's as you mention is a modest ( small) battery which means its easy to 
over cook it, and Im guessing its VRLA.

jay
peltz power


On Dec 10, 2014, at 6:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:

 Hello wrenches,
 
 I have a request to design a modest battery backup system for a residence 
 that has a 10 kW grid-tied Solar Edge system using a single SolarEdge 
 Inverter SE1A- US.  I'd like to try to utilize the solar potential that 
 we have on site.  One idea that I had was to use DC relay(s) to cut out a 
 couple strings when the grid was out, dropping the PV input down to about 
 3kW.  Has anyone ever tried this?
 
 I could easily get away with a ~4 kW battery-based inverter and would like to 
 avoid stacking unnecessarily.  
 
 Solar Edge also offers power output control through radio ripple control.  I 
 took a look at this paper on it 
 http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/power-reduction-control-application-note.pdf.
   Off-the shelf it looks like I would need a computer to control the power 
 output dynamically.  Perhaps I could activate the 5V K2 relay with a simple 
 control scheme and drop the power to 30%, but I hesitate to dive in too deep. 
  Anyone worked with radio ripple control?
 
 Thanks
 
 -- 
 
 
 
 Mac Lewis
 
 Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge

[Jerry Shafer]

Mac
Outback makes a AC couple ready radian wired box its nice because it
already has the relay to kill the PV system along with the programming to
make it work
Jerry

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:04 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote:

 Hi Mac,

 It looks like they are doing all that work on the AC side.
 If you do the DC side, you'll lose the comm from the optimizers causing
 error messages etc.

 For the few times a year this will actually need to regulate, depending on
 the battery inverter  I'd install a AC relay and kill the whole array.
 Simple, easy reliable.
 And in the end you'd need to do this anyway even if you did some string
  disco's as you mention is a modest ( small) battery which means its easy
 to over cook it, and Im guessing its VRLA.

 jay
 peltz power


 On Dec 10, 2014, at 6:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:

 Hello wrenches,

 I have a request to design a modest battery backup system for a residence
 that has a 10 kW grid-tied Solar Edge system using a single SolarEdge
 Inverter SE1A- US.  I'd like to try to utilize the solar potential that
 we have on site.  One idea that I had was to use DC relay(s) to cut out a
 couple strings when the grid was out, dropping the PV input down to about
 3kW.  Has anyone ever tried this?

 I could easily get away with a ~4 kW battery-based inverter and would like
 to avoid stacking unnecessarily.

 Solar Edge also offers power output control through radio ripple control.
 I took a look at this paper on it
 http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/power-reduction-control-application-note.pdf.
 Off-the shelf it looks like I would need a computer to control the power
 output dynamically.  Perhaps I could activate the 5V K2 relay with a simple
 control scheme and drop the power to 30%, but I hesitate to dive in too
 deep.  Anyone worked with radio ripple control?

 Thanks

 --



 Mac Lewis

 *Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge

[jay peltz]

 Question

Is the Hz shift/ power reduction included/required in all battery less 
inverters?

Thanks

Jay
Peltz power___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge

[Jarmo . Venalainen]

Hi:

In Europe, (CE products), yes. 

In other parts of the world not necessarily yes, but rather depends on the 
state of the adopted regulations.

Beyond that, I would expect that all new inverters in development will 
have it.

JARMO
_
 


Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA | 
  Training  Development Specialist - Senior 
Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Fax: +604-420-1591  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 
Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.SEsolar.com 
|   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 


*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 




From:
jay peltz j...@asis.com
To:
RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, 
Date:
12/10/2014 10:13 AM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling SolarEdge
Sent by:
RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org



Question

Is the Hz shift/ power reduction included/required in all battery less 
inverters?

Thanks

Jay
Peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Relays

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Since grid-tie inverters sell back with a power factor of 1, the load 
~should~ be entirely resistive and
not inductive or capacitive so a appropriately rated relay contacts 
~should~ be fine.


Except maybe if the inverter is designed to supply VARs like the last 
Solar-Pro magazine talks about.
(haven't actually read that article yet but I assume that's what it is 
about)


Of course, others may have different experiences so I would listen to them.

I prefer to use a somewhat over-rated relay.

boB


On 6/16/2014 7:05 AM, Drake wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Do the relays that break the current from the direct grid tie 
inverters, in AC coupled systems, need to be motor rated or can they 
simply be rated for the amperage of the inverter output? How inductive 
is the current between the two inverter systems? Will the current tend 
to jump the contacts on a non motor rated relay, or burn them out 
prematurely?


Thanks,

Drake


Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Relays

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Drake,

I think you can put a power diode in parallel to the gt inverter that can
conduct that inductive current if you need to.  However, I think BoB is
correct, there should just be induction of the wiring itself for most
grid-tied inverter.  The relay engineer recommended this diode for a DC
load break application I recently had, so I assume AC would be the same.

Thanks


On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:11 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com
wrote:


 Since grid-tie inverters sell back with a power factor of 1, the load
 ~should~ be entirely resistive and
 not inductive or capacitive so a appropriately rated relay contacts
 ~should~ be fine.

 Except maybe if the inverter is designed to supply VARs like the last
 Solar-Pro magazine talks about.
 (haven't actually read that article yet but I assume that's what it is
 about)

 Of course, others may have different experiences so I would listen to them.

 I prefer to use a somewhat over-rated relay.

 boB



 On 6/16/2014 7:05 AM, Drake wrote:

 Hello Wrenches,

 Do the relays that break the current from the direct grid tie inverters,
 in AC coupled systems, need to be motor rated or can they simply be rated
 for the amperage of the inverter output? How inductive is the current
 between the two inverter systems? Will the current tend to jump the
 contacts on a non motor rated relay, or burn them out prematurely?

 Thanks,

 Drake


 Drake Chamberlin





 *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
 Solar PV 740-448-7328 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/



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-- 



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*Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Relays

[Exeltech]

Focus is on the relay contacts.  Any good designer will have already 
incorporated protective diodes for relay DC coils, so nothing needed unless 
specifically stated in the instruction/installation manual.

Do NOT connect any diodes across the relay contacts.

Bob Gudgel is 100% on target with his comments (below).


Dan


On Mon, 6/16/14, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Relays
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Date: Monday, June 16, 2014, 10:59 AM
 
 Hi Drake,

I think you can put a power diode in parallel to the gt inverter that can 
conduct that inductive current if you need to.  However, I think BoB is 
correct, there should just be induction of the wiring itself for most grid-tied 
inverter.  The relay engineer recommended this diode for a DC load break 
application I recently had, so I assume AC would be the same.

Thanks

 
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:11 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com b...@midnitesolar.com 
wrote:

   
Since grid-tie inverters sell back with a power factor of 1, the load ~should~ 
be entirely resistive and
not inductive or capacitive so a appropriately rated relay contacts ~should~ be 
fine.
 
Except maybe if the inverter is designed to supply VARs like the  last 
Solar-Pro magazine talks about.
(haven't actually read that article yet but I assume that's what it is about)
 
Of course, others may have different experiences so I would listen to them.
 
I prefer to use a somewhat over-rated relay.
 
boB
 
   
 
   
 
On 6/16/2014 7:05 AM, Drake wrote:
 
Hello Wrenches,
 
Do the relays that break the current from the direct grid tie
inverters, in AC coupled systems, need to be motor rated or can
they simply be rated for the amperage of the inverter output? How inductive
is the current between the two inverter systems? Will the current tend to jump
the contacts on a non motor rated relay, or burn them out prematurely?
 
Thanks,
 
   
 
Drake 
 
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius

[Bill Hennessy]

Hi Mac--
We've installed four Magnum 4048-Fronius AC coupled systems, ranging from the 
older Fronius IG through the later Fronius IG Plus with arc fault. One system 
had three Magnums, another two Magnums and two were single Magnums. We had a 
small glitch on the two Magnum system on one occasion that we haven't yet 
figured out and we don't yet have enough info to make a pronouncement. The grid 
dropped out on a cold, partly cloudy, sunny day with winds quickly moving the 
clouds past the modules. The Fronius IG Plus would not switch to the second 
stage after the clouds passed and the sun came out. We weren't there at the 
time and conditions are hard to replicate. Magnum tells us it's a Fronius issue 
and we are hoping to work with someone at Fronius to learn more. 


 
Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC



 From: Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:44 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius
 


Hello wrenches,

Has anyone had good success AC coupling with Fronius Inverters?  If so, what 
equipment did you use?  Was this with an IG or an IG Plus?

I have had quite a few people lately with Fronius Inverters that would like a 
backup solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling these, but could 
potentially be persuaded.

Thanks

-- 



Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius

[Drake]

We did one and it seems to work fine. We AC 
coupled a pair of Sunny Islands to a Fronius IG 
Plus 10.0-1 UNI. There might be a problem if you 
are using a Radian with the Fronius.


At 04:44 PM 4/16/2014, you wrote:

Hello wrenches,

Has anyone had good success AC coupling with 
Fronius Inverters? Â If so, what equipment did 
you use? Â Was this with an IG or an IG Plus?


I have had quite a few people lately with 
Fronius Inverters that would like a backup 
solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling 
these, but could potentially be persuaded.


Thanks

--



Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius

[All Solar, Inc.]

Have one with dual Xantrex XWs and a IG plus 10.0.  Working good 

Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar
CO USA
  - Original Message - 
  From: Drake 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 9:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius


  We did one and it seems to work fine. We AC coupled a pair of Sunny Islands 
to a Fronius IG Plus 10.0-1 UNI. There might be a problem if you are using a 
Radian with the Fronius. 

  At 04:44 PM 4/16/2014, you wrote:

Hello wrenches,

Has anyone had good success AC coupling with Fronius Inverters? Â If so, 
what equipment did you use? Â Was this with an IG or an IG Plus?

I have had quite a few people lately with Fronius Inverters that would like 
a backup solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling these, but could 
potentially be persuaded.

Thanks

-- 



Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Fronius

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Mac,

I have a customer with 17kW on 3 Fronius inverters. He connected a cheap 40kW 
china diesel generator during a week long power outrage. I was amazed when he 
told me they sync'd up with no problems.

Larry

On Apr 16, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello wrenches,

Has anyone had good success AC coupling with Fronius Inverters?  If so, what 
equipment did you use?  Was this with an IG or an IG Plus?

I have had quite a few people lately with Fronius Inverters that would like a 
backup solution and I'm not comfortable AC coupling these, but could 
potentially be persuaded.

Thanks

Mac Lewis
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[lars Ortegren]

We have done a number of off grid AC coupling projects over the last eight
years. We have found they are successful with anything that comes close to a
true sign wave, including some of the old Trace inverters. I would be
careful to not come too close to the wattage of the source inverter, and
keep in mind that your battery charging is only one stage (bulk), and might
not be the best choice without another charging source (i.e. the grid, or a
semi regular generator). I can't say it makes a lot of sense, but when we
have tested grid tied inverters and charge controllers side by side, the GT
inverters produce significantly more than any CC's on the market.. Any more,
I think that it is a better design to have the larger array tied to a GT
inverter, and a small array tied to a charge controller for absorb and float
charging...Just sayin.

Lars Ortegren
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
http://www.californiasolarco.com/

Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518

California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Jay Peltz]

Hi Lars

I'm curious what you found those efficiency differences to be?

And how are you measuring inverter charging efficiency in the bi directional 
mode

Thanks

Jay

Peltz power



Sent from my iPhone

On May 28, 2013, at 10:53 AM, lars Ortegren l...@cal-solar.com wrote:

 We have done a number of off grid AC coupling projects over the last eight
 years. We have found they are successful with anything that comes close to a
 true sign wave, including some of the old Trace inverters. I would be
 careful to not come too close to the wattage of the source inverter, and
 keep in mind that your battery charging is only one stage (bulk), and might
 not be the best choice without another charging source (i.e. the grid, or a
 semi regular generator). I can't say it makes a lot of sense, but when we
 have tested grid tied inverters and charge controllers side by side, the GT
 inverters produce significantly more than any CC's on the market.. Any more,
 I think that it is a better design to have the larger array tied to a GT
 inverter, and a small array tied to a charge controller for absorb and float
 charging...Just sayin.
 
 Lars Ortegren
 Director of Operations
 California Solar Electric Company
 10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
 Grass Valley, CA 95945
 http://www.californiasolarco.com/
 
 Phone : (530)274-3671
 Fax: (530)274-7518
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Lars,
  With the old Trace inverters? Were they 4.01 firmware or
  4.10/4.30? Did you use the GTI? How did you AC couple them - which
  input/output terminals? 
  And what was the rationale in an off grid scenario - distance to
  sun in a shady forest? 
  I didn't know this was possible.
  Thanks, Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com


  
  On 5/28/2013 11:53 AM, lars Ortegren wrote:


  We have done a number of off grid AC coupling projects over the last eight
years. We have found they are successful with anything that comes close to a
true sign wave, including some of the old Trace inverters. I would be
careful to not come too close to the wattage of the source inverter, and
keep in mind that your battery charging is only one stage (bulk), and might
not be the best choice without another charging source (i.e. the grid, or a
semi regular generator). I can't say it makes a lot of sense, but when we
have tested grid tied inverters and charge controllers side by side, the GT
inverters produce significantly more than any CC's on the market.. Any more,
I think that it is a better design to have the larger array tied to a GT
inverter, and a small array tied to a charge controller for absorb and float
charging...Just sayin.

Lars Ortegren
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
http://www.californiasolarco.com/

Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518

California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Drake]

I also saw that webinar. We had just coupled a Fronius 10K to a pair 
of Sunny Islands.  It seems to be working fine. It is a backup 
system, so we have only tested it.  SMA tech support assured me it 
would work before we bought the system.


Is the Outback wave form unique in any way, causing the Magnum have 
issues? Is the Sunny Island wave form cleaner?


 At 04:01 PM 5/26/2013, you wrote:

Hi Jeremy,

FYI:  I heard that Fronius is the most sensitive of the GT inverters 
and so the most difficult to fool or keep on in an AC coupled 
system.  That was from the Magnum AC Coupling webinar.


Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189


On May 25, 2013, at 6:52 AM, All Solar wrote:


Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
I have a system where we have Installed a pair of XW inverters 
along with a 10k Fronius inverter.
We have been told that we need to limit the PV watts to the lowest 
XW inverter. We have XW capacity in excess of the array, so why 
can't they entire array feed the system when the grid is down?
Of course tech support is tougher when you use different brand 
names, but I'm sure this has been done in the field already.
Please contact me off list If you can help us out. The customers 
electrician on this job has been trying hard to figure it out, but 
I think he might be in too deep!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar
CO. USA


Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Gary Willett]

  
  
Maybe their position has changed, but
  the last time I looked into AC coupling a Fronius inverter I was
  told by Fronius that it would void their warranty. Has that policy
  changed?
  
  Regards,
  
  Gary Willett
  Icarus Engineering LLC
  
  On 5/27/13 3:48 PM, Drake wrote:


  I also saw that webinar. We had just coupled a Fronius 10K to a
  pair of
  Sunny Islands. It seems to be working fine. It is a backup
  system,
  so we have only tested it. SMA tech support assured me it would
  work before we bought the system. 
  
  Is the Outback wave form unique in any way, causing the Magnum
  have
  issues? Is the Sunny Island wave form cleaner?
  
  At 04:01 PM 5/26/2013, you wrote:
  Hi Jeremy,

FYI: I heard that Fronius is the most sensitive of the GT
inverters
and so the most difficult to "fool" or keep on in an AC coupled
system. That was from the Magnum AC Coupling webinar.

Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189


On May 25, 2013, at 6:52 AM, All Solar wrote:

Hope everyone is
  enjoying their
  weekend!
  I have a system where we have Installed a pair of XW inverters
  along with
  a 10k Fronius inverter. 
  We have been told that we need to limit the PV watts to the
  lowest XW
  inverter. We have XW capacity in excess of the array, so why
  can't they
  entire array feed the system when the grid is down?
  Of course tech support is tougher when you use different brand
  names, but
  I'm sure this has been done in the field already.
  Please contact me off list If you can help us out. The
  customers
  electrician on this job has been trying hard to figure it out,
  but I
  think he might be in too deep!
  
  Jeremy Rodriguez
  All Solar
  CO. USA
  
  
  Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Drake]

It seems a little vague on that point. Talking to Fronius tech 
support did not produce a definitive answer. I think so long as the 
system is basically grid tied, it likely wouldn't. In the webinar, 
the presenter said that Fronius wasn't worried about the AC relay 
being switched on and off by the process of AC coupling. I wouldn't 
design an off grid system around a Fronius.


At 06:49 PM 5/27/2013, you wrote:
Maybe their position has changed, but the last time I looked into AC 
coupling a Fronius inverter I was told by Fronius that it would void 
their warranty. Has that policy changed?


Regards,

Gary Willett
Icarus Engineering LLC

On 5/27/13 3:48 PM, Drake wrote:
I also saw that webinar. We had just coupled a Fronius 10K to a 
pair of Sunny Islands.  It seems to be working fine. It is a backup 
system, so we have only tested it.  SMA tech support assured me it 
would work before we bought the system.


Is the Outback wave form unique in any way, causing the Magnum have 
issues? Is the Sunny Island wave form cleaner?


 At 04:01 PM 5/26/2013, you wrote:

Hi Jeremy,

FYI:  I heard that Fronius is the most sensitive of the GT 
inverters and so the most difficult to fool or keep on in an AC 
coupled system.  That was from the Magnum AC Coupling webinar.


Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189


On May 25, 2013, at 6:52 AM, All Solar wrote:


Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
I have a system where we have Installed a pair of XW inverters 
along with a 10k Fronius inverter.
We have been told that we need to limit the PV watts to the 
lowest XW inverter. We have XW capacity in excess of the array, 
so why can't they entire array feed the system when the grid is down?
Of course tech support is tougher when you use different brand 
names, but I'm sure this has been done in the field already.
Please contact me off list If you can help us out. The customers 
electrician on this job has been trying hard to figure it out, 
but I think he might be in too deep!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar
CO. USA


Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[David Katz]

Jeremy
I have a system on my house with 6 kW of grid tie inverters AC coupled to an 
Outback Radian, which is actually two 4 kW inverters in one box.  It works 
great in full sun with the grid off. I don't see a problem with what you are 
doing.
David Katz

Sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2013, at 6:52 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote:

 Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
 I have a system where we have Installed a pair of XW inverters along with a 
 10k Fronius inverter. 
 We have been told that we need to limit the PV watts to the lowest XW 
 inverter. We have XW capacity in excess of the array, so why can't they 
 entire array feed the system when the grid is down?
 Of course tech support is tougher when you use different brand names, but I'm 
 sure this has been done in the field already.
 Please contact me off list If you can help us out. The customers electrician 
 on this job has been trying hard to figure it out, but I think he might be in 
 too deep!
 
 Jeremy Rodriguez
 All Solar
 CO. USA
 
 
 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling different brands

[Kelly Larson]

Hi Jeremy,

FYI:  I heard that Fronius is the most sensitive of the GT inverters and so the 
most difficult to fool or keep on in an AC coupled system.  That was from the 
Magnum AC Coupling webinar.

Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189


On May 25, 2013, at 6:52 AM, All Solar wrote:

 Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
 I have a system where we have Installed a pair of XW inverters along with a 
 10k Fronius inverter. 
 We have been told that we need to limit the PV watts to the lowest XW 
 inverter. We have XW capacity in excess of the array, so why can't they 
 entire array feed the system when the grid is down?
 Of course tech support is tougher when you use different brand names, but I'm 
 sure this has been done in the field already.
 Please contact me off list If you can help us out. The customers electrician 
 on this job has been trying hard to figure it out, but I think he might be in 
 too deep!
 
 Jeremy Rodriguez
 All Solar
 CO. USA
 
 
 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Situation

[Jason Szumlanski]

What brand of inverter are your using for the off-grid inverter. SMA has
addressed this issue with the Sunny Island. I'm looking at an all-SMA
option for a new installation, and also an SMA-Enphase AC Coupled system,
so I'll be interested to see what others with more AC coupling experience
have to say.


*Jason Szumlanski*

*Fafco Solar*


On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. 
allso...@scswifi.net wrote:

 Wrenches,
 Here is my situation:  GT string inverter - 3 strings of mods, 10KW DC. We
 need to reduce the PV when the grid is down as to not overload the AC
 coupled inverters.
 Is there a good way to limit PV input like shunt off some power or short
 part of the array? (part)
 I was first thinking of dropping off 2 of the three strings, but that
 would not leave enough input for the critical loads.
 Has anyone done such a thing?

 Jeremy
 All Solar
 CO- USA
 Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Situation

[Jay Peltz]

Hi Jeremy

Seems like a perfect place for  the 600v controller from xantrex

Jay
Peltz power. 





Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. 
allso...@scswifi.net wrote:

 Wrenches,
 Here is my situation:  GT string inverter - 3 strings of mods, 10KW DC. We 
 need to reduce the PV when the grid is down as to not overload the AC coupled 
 inverters.  
 Is there a good way to limit PV input like shunt off some power or short part 
 of the array? (part)
 I was first thinking of dropping off 2 of the three strings, but that would 
 not leave enough input for the critical loads. 
 Has anyone done such a thing?
 
 Jeremy
 All Solar
 CO- USA  
 Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

[Glenn Burt]

I would advise against using CAT-5 cabling for any RS-485 data
communications, it is not an appropriate tool for the job. This is a common
poor practice in the solar industry.

4 conductor shielded, 24AWG jacketed cable is what SMA recommends, and is
appropriate for this purpose.

 

Glenn Burt

(many years of data comms experience B4 solar)

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

 

Hi Kirk,

 

I would consider the Sunny Island option.  Everything integrates nicely.
You can use the smartformer to get 240Vac if you need it at the critical
loads.  This would give the Sunny Island Frequency control over the Sunny
Boy (assuming you can run Cat 5 to the Sunny Boy). 

 

Good Luck.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com wrote:

I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US
inverters and it’s been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid
version of Outbacks.

Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an
existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I’m
thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and
feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the
grid. And I’d like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can
also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT
inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct?
Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 


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-- 

 

 

 

Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

[Kirk Herander]

I am leaning towards the SunnyIsland. I assume it backs off the SunnyBoy via
RS485 communications and the factory 240 xformer is a plus. The Outback
setup might be a little less expensive, but as you say a bit of a kludge. I
guess I still need the charge controller for the new PV, as the SunnyIsland
doesn't regulate that.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

 

Hi Kirk,

All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any
bi-directional H-bridge type inverter.  I have used old Trace SW's,
SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to
do exactly what you are talking about.  I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and
an additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge
controller to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless
as long as you have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is
down and the grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are
using.  

If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland
because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant.
Everything else is a bit of a kludge.

 

David Katz

CTO  Founder

AEE Solar Inc

P: 707 825-1200

F: 707 825-1202

dk...@aeesolar.com

www.aeesolar.com

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk
Herander
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

 

I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US
inverters and it's been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid
version of Outbacks.

Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an
existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I'm
thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and
feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the
grid. And I'd like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can
also charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT
inverter cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct?
Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible Installer

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

[David Katz]

You customer might consider using two Sunnyislands instead of a transformer.
I used the Sunnyislands without 485 and it still backed of the grid tie 
inverters. 485 let's the SI put the grid tie inverters in off grid mode, making 
them less sensative to the UL parameters.
David

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!


- Reply message -
From: Kirk Herander k...@vtsolar.com
To: apos;RE-wrenchesapos; re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters
Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2012 5:08 am



I am leaning towards the SunnyIsland. I assume it backs off the SunnyBoy via 
RS485 communications and the factory 240 xformer is a plus. The Outback setup 
might be a little less expensive, but as you say a bit of a kludge. I guess I 
still need the charge controller for the new PV, as the SunnyIsland doesn’t 
regulate that.

Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

Hi Kirk,
All of the Outback inverters will work AC coupled (GT and FX) as will any 
bi-directional H-bridge type inverter.  I have used old Trace SW’s, 
SunnyIsland, Apollo TSW, Magnum AE and now I am using an Outback Radian to do 
exactly what you are talking about.  I have 6 kW of grid tie inverter and an 
additional 4kw of modules running through a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller 
to the batteries that the Radian runs on. It all works flawless as long as you 
have a provision for protecting the batteries when the gid is down and the 
grid-tie PV system is making more power than the loads are using.
If the customer has SMA inverters, I would recommend using a SunnyIsland 
because the battery control when the grid goes down is so elegant.  Everything 
else is a bit of a kludge.

David Katz
CTO  Founder
AEE Solar Inc
P: 707 825-1200
F: 707 825-1202
dk...@aeesolar.commailto:dk...@aeesolar.com
www.aeesolar.comhttp://www.aeesolar.com


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Kirk Herander
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling and Outback inverters

I have AC-coupled an Outback quad-stack with multiple SunnyBoy 6000US inverters 
and it’s been running fine for 4 years. I used the off-grid version of Outbacks.
Now I have an application where a customer wants to add battery backup to an 
existing SunnyBoy 5000US system. And expand his array by a couple KW. So I’m 
thinking of using a GT Outback w/ batteries to handle the critical loads and 
feed the extra 2kw of PV (charging the batteries through an MX60) to the grid. 
And I’d like to AC-couple the SunnyBoy so the original 5 kw array can also 
charge the batteries, BUT I remember, at least I think so, that the GT inverter 
cannot be AC-coupled, only the off-grid version. Is this correct? Thanks.

Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Steve Higgins]

Dana,

Please contact me off list and I'll get you a couple of drawings...

They are too big for the list.

If anyone else wants them I'll send them to you to.

Also keep and eye on Solar Pro, we just finished a good article on ac coupling.

Steve Higgins
Sales Application Engineering Mgr
African Business Development Mgr.
Direct 360-618-4313
Outback Power Technologies
5917 195th Street NE Arlington, Washington 98223




From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:34 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I currently have a dual Outback GTVFX system for the office at home and am 
adding an SMA 4KW GIT system. We are going for 100% solar powered on the office 
 home. Yahoo!

I would like to be able to AC support the battery based GTVFX system in the 
event of an extended power outage. I spoke with Outback and they said to feed 
the output of the GTVFX[s],  that they did not have a drawing to support this 
installation.

Would anyone who has done this setup, be willing to share a one line or 
schematic drawing?

Thanks in advance.

Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc -  E - d...@solarwork.com -  V 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com
Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988
Please consider the environment before printing this email   NABCEP # 051112-136

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XWInverters toEnphaseMicroinverters

[Carl Adams]

My query to Enphase on the subject and there response

Hello,



Here is a technote which talks about how to use the Xantrex XW with a grid
tied inverter.
http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-01_rev-a).pdf

There is speculation from colleagues as to whether it would void the Enphase
warranty to AC couple an Enphase array with the XW.  That said I have an
Enphase install where the customer now would like to add batteries. Is this
solution acceptable, and if not can you offer an alternative?



With Regards

Carl Adams

SunRock Solar

513.290.9072 (cell)

513.766.6025 (office)

 ===

Hi Carl,

Battery backup is not an intended use for our inverters, should some fault
in the system cause the inverters to fail then it would not be covered by
our warranty.  Also, we don't currently have plans to support a battery
backup system, we are strictly a grid tied system and are meant to quit
producing when the grid goes down.

That's not to say that it won't work, but it definitely has a potential to
void the warranty if the inverter is used in such a way.

If you have any other questions feel free to reply to this message and I
will be happy to help you further.

Best Regards,

William Cox

Enphase Energy
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Brian Faley]

Kent,

 

Yes, that is the drawing of a typical installation.

 

Regards, 

Brian

 

Brian Faley

Chief Engineer

Magnum Energy

2111 W Casino Rd

Everett, WA 98204

425-353-8833

bfa...@magnumenergy.com

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:47 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

 

Brian,



Is this the drawing?

Magnum ac coupled diagram
http://www.google.com/url?sa=tsource=webcd=1sqi=2ved=0CBYQFjAAurl=
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magnumenergy.com%2FLiterature%2FApplication%2520Info%2F
Magnum%2520AC%2520Coupled%2520Line%2520Diagram%2520%281-May-2010%29.pdf
rct=jq=%22ac%20coupled%22%20site%3Awww.magnumenergy.comei=EZBiTte-H4jn
iAKNraDGCgusg=AFQjCNG7FuyVaDx7YSWcJfqkh4TUkps4qAcad=rja  from Google
cache.



Kent Osterberg

Blue Mountain Solar








 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Christopher Warfel]

One should also factor in the availability of generator fuel if an extended 
outage occurs. In some communities, the fuel will be scarce or non-existent, 
especially if significant damage occurs to fuel transporation and storage 
infrastructure.



brbrbr--- Original Message ---
On 9/4/2011  01:18 AM R Ray Walters wrote:brHi Jay;
br
brI agree, for long outages, a generator is the way to go. It just doesn't 
make sense to have 5 days of lead acid battery sitting there for years waiting to be 
used once or twice in an epic ice storm.
brOn the other hand, many places have very unreliable grid power with short 
outages every few days. A battery based backup system is great in those cases, but I 
rarely size the bank for more than a day of storage and I usually use sealed 
batteries. I look at it as a big UPS system, that if managed could limp along for 
longer in an extended outage.
brI start any system design of this nature with this question: How often does 
the power go out?
brRIght there, I talk more than half the folks out of batteries, while the 
rest know what they're getting (and not getting).
br
brR. Walters
brr...@solarray.com
brSolar Engineer
br
br
br
br
brOn Sep 2, 2011, at 7:15 PM, jay peltz wrote:
br
br HI Larry,
br 
br I'll chime in here with the other option, ie no batteries at all.
br 
br Instead its a back up generator.
br I've found them to be much cheaper, and if you are expecting a longer outage then weather is usually a problem ie its overcast and therefor you'll need a backup for your battery system anyway, so 
br just go with the backup.
br 
br jay
br 
br peltz power
br 
br 
br On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Larry Brown wrote:
br 
br Wrenches,
br 
br After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some battery backup to power some essential loads.
br 
br We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or a step up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider Electric  (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this application and do 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these in off grid applications but not as AC coupled.  I have considered Magnum because they also do 120/240 volts but they need battery diversion to ensure the batteries are not over charged.
br 
br None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am looking for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to existing grid-tied systems to provide some battery backup.
br 
br Thanks

br Larry
br 
br Larry Brown

br Sun Mountain___
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brbrbrChristopher Warfel, ENTECH Engineering, Inc. 
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807, 401-466-8978 (v)(f) 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Darryl Thayer]

The balancer did a good job on helping share the load, for example if I had a 
30 amp load on the 12 volt leg of the 24 volt system the equalizer would supply 
perhaps 29.5 amps but the 12 volt battery would supply the rest, even though 
close, the 12 volt section does more work tahn the 12 to 24 volt section.  The 
only way this can be made up is to overcharge the 12-24 volt section such that 
the 12 volt get charged.  
DT

From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

Hi Jay;

I agree, for long outages, a generator is the way to go. It just doesn't make 
sense to have 5 days of lead acid battery sitting there for years waiting to be 
used once or twice in an epic ice storm.
On the other hand, many places have very unreliable grid power with short 
outages every few days. A battery based backup system is great in those cases, 
but I rarely size the bank for more than a day of storage and I usually use 
sealed batteries. I look at it as a big UPS system, that if managed could limp 
along for longer in an extended outage.
I start any system design of this nature with this question: How often does the 
power go out?
RIght there, I talk more than half the folks out of batteries, while the rest 
know what they're getting (and not getting).

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Sep 2, 2011, at 7:15 PM, jay peltz wrote:

 HI Larry,
 
 I'll chime in here with the other option, ie no batteries at all.
 
 Instead its a back up generator.
 I've found them to be much cheaper, and if you are expecting a longer outage 
 then weather is usually a problem ie its overcast and therefor you'll need a 
 backup for your battery system anyway, so 
 just go with the backup.
 
 jay
 
 peltz power
 
 
 On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Larry Brown wrote:
 
 Wrenches,
 
 After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the 
 Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some 
 battery backup to power some essential loads.
 
 We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or a step 
 up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider Electric  
 (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this application and 
 do 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these in off grid 
 applications but not as AC coupled.  I have considered Magnum because they 
 also do 120/240 volts but they need battery diversion to ensure the 
 batteries are not over charged.
 
 None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am looking 
 for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to existing 
 grid-tied systems to provide some battery backup.
 
 Thanks
 Larry
 
 Larry Brown
 Sun Mountain___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kent Osterberg]

Brian,

Is this the drawing?
Magnum ac
coupled diagram from Google cache.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar



Allan Sindelar wrote:

  
Brian,
Good job of laying it out. 
  
Now here's the part I'm missing. If as you say the grid-tied
inverter(s), either micro or string, are connected to the load side of
the inverter's transfer switch, then I presume that in "normal"
(meaning grid is up) mode, the transfer switch is configured to allow
the "protected load" (a.k.a. critical load panel or backed-up panel) to
feed directly back to the main grid panel, in order to maintain selling
to the utility. The Magnum is fed by another breaker in the main grid
panel, in order to maintain battery charging. When the grid goes down,
the transfer switch is manually switched to allow the grid-tied
inverter(s) to directly feed the protected load panel, rather than the
main grid panel. The output of the Magnum is capable of being backfed
through the AC load output to function as a battery charger.
  
The Magnum has to be able to input on the AC load output in order to
utilize the AC output of the grid-tied inverter(s). The grid-tied
inverter(s) can't feed the main grid panel, as they would shut off
during a grid outage. And the Magnum's AC input can't feed off of the
protected loads panel, as its output also feeds that panel and it would
then be trying to feed itself.
  
Am I even close here? It's enough to give an aging solar bozo a
headache. I would appreciate a wiring diagram and clarification as to
how such a system would be configured. And then there's the question of
why it would even be done this way, using a battery-based inverter only
for backup and a separate inverter(s) for grid-tie. What are the
advantages to this approach over simply using a battery-based
grid-interactive inverter, such as a GVFX, Radian or XW?
  
Thank you,
Allan
 
  
  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   
  
On 9/2/2011 6:20 PM, Brian Faley wrote:
  


   



 



Hi Allen,

Ill try to
describe the typical AC coupled system as well as I can.

In such a
system, a NON-grid tied battery based inverter (i.e. Magnum MS PAE) is
connected as a backup inverter, only supplying AC power to consumers
loads when the grid is down. The micro inverter(s), or string inverters
are connected on the load side of the inverters transfer switch, in
parallel with the inverter output so they see AC grid power (when
available) or inverter power when the grid goes down. The micro
inverters / string inverters in such a system are called AC coupled
inverters because the point of coupling is the AC system rather than
the DC system. This allows the battery based inverter to provide the
grid reference to the AC coupled grid-tied inverters when the utility
power is not present  Backup mode. In that mode the inverter will form
the reference for the grid tied inverters and any surplus power
supplied by the grid-tied inverters that is not being consumed by AC
loads will charge the battery of the inverter. In this inverter mode,
once the battery is full, the inverter senses it and shifts the
inverter frequency by .5hz to force the grid tied inverters off,
keeping them from exporting power, thereby stopping the battery from
overcharging. 

On a large
system, a DC diversion load is usually added in parallel with the
battery to reduce the on/off cycling of the grid tied inverters, which
once the frequency shift happens, will try to reconnect every five
minutes without it. 
Using the
frequency shift method only is rather crude, because it essentially is
a bang/bang controller  off or on. Its not a matter of our lack of
confidence in the approach, the question is do you want the battery
voltage swinging around by several volts. In a DC diversion mode
system, the surplus energy from the grid tied inverters can be put to
work as a useful dump load rather than just off lining several kw of
PV. 

We had a
white paper describing the AC couple mode. Ill see what we can do to
make it more widely available, since the interest in such systems seems
to be increasing.






Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA
98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com





 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Friday,
September 02, 2011 4:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
    Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches] AC Coupling


Brian,
Could you speak a bit more to this, please? My understanding is that
the need with a string (

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[R Ray Walters]

Hi Jay;

I agree, for long outages, a generator is the way to go. It just doesn't make 
sense to have 5 days of lead acid battery sitting there for years waiting to be 
used once or twice in an epic ice storm.
On the other hand, many places have very unreliable grid power with short 
outages every few days. A battery based backup system is great in those cases, 
but I rarely size the bank for more than a day of storage and I usually use 
sealed batteries. I look at it as a big UPS system, that if managed could limp 
along for longer in an extended outage.
I start any system design of this nature with this question: How often does the 
power go out?
RIght there, I talk more than half the folks out of batteries, while the rest 
know what they're getting (and not getting).

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Sep 2, 2011, at 7:15 PM, jay peltz wrote:

 HI Larry,
 
 I'll chime in here with the other option, ie no batteries at all.
 
 Instead its a back up generator.
 I've found them to be much cheaper, and if you are expecting a longer outage 
 then weather is usually a problem ie its overcast and therefor you'll need a 
 backup for your battery system anyway, so 
 just go with the backup.
 
 jay
 
 peltz power
 
 
 On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Larry Brown wrote:
 
 Wrenches,
 
 After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the 
 Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some 
 battery backup to power some essential loads.
 
 We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or a step 
 up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider Electric  
 (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this application and 
 do 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these in off grid 
 applications but not as AC coupled.  I have considered Magnum because they 
 also do 120/240 volts but they need battery diversion to ensure the 
 batteries are not over charged.
 
 None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am looking 
 for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to existing 
 grid-tied systems to provide some battery backup.
 
 Thanks
 Larry
 
 Larry Brown
 Sun Mountain___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[wirewiz]

Yes, there should be an uptick in at least inquiries about solar backup here in 
the NE.

I went to a site in CT where I was called in to see why the customer was upset 
about why her backup batteries went dead when she was told the solar would stay 
on line and charge them during what is now week long outages in lots of CT, 
including my daughter. Luckily for us  our power stayed on and we've had our 
granddaughter all week. We're not giving her back or maybe not.

Anyway, I found that one of the installers involved (there are two, one did the 
grid tie and one did the backup and are now pointing fingers at each other) 
thought they could install charge controllers and during an outage then divert 
the grid tie solar string voltage to the batteries through these controllers. I 
was told they were Outback MX or FM60's but I found two totally blue boxes, no 
labeling whatsoever and have no idea who the manufacturer is??. Realizing, I 
guess, that the string voltage was way too high, the connections were never 
made but the equipment was left there on the wall as a disguise (maybe) hoping 
we would never have a long outage like this.

It remains to be seen if the existing Xantrex SW5548's can be AC coupled to the 
Sunpower X inverter. Me, I'm heading for the hills on this one.

I also have an ethics issue question here. If you were asked by the installer 
to check the system and saw what I saw would you tell the furious customer who 
wanted answers or leave it up to the installer(s) to do the right thing even 
though it's clear to me that they already deceived her. Why neither installer, 
instead of me, came to check the system or did not even want to be present when 
I was there is strange to me. Maybe I should not have gotten involved.  

Anyone, ever see or hear of plain boxes with no labeling being installed as 
controllers. 

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
31 Lincoln St
Westport, CT 06880
Phone: 203-644-2404
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com




On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Larry Brown wrote:

 Wrenches,
 
 After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the 
 Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some battery 
 backup to power some essential loads.
 
 We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or a step 
 up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider Electric  
 (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this application and do 
 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these in off grid applications 
 but not as AC coupled.  I have considered Magnum because they also do 120/240 
 volts but they need battery diversion to ensure the batteries are not over 
 charged.
 
 None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am looking 
 for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to existing grid-tied 
 systems to provide some battery backup.
 
 Thanks
 Larry
 
 Larry Brown
 Sun Mountain___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Brian Faley]

Hi Larry, 

Magnum MS PAE inverters do indeed shift the inverter output frequency
when the battery is full in order to disconnect grid-tied inverters used
in AC coupled systems. It was designed to work in conjunction with a DC
diversion load - which is recommended if the system is larger than a
couple panels.


Regards,


Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com
 
 
 Larry Brown wrote:
  Wrenches,
 
  After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the
  Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about
some
  battery backup to power some essential loads.
 
  We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands
or
  a step up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider
  Electric  (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this
  application and do 120/240 volt output as well and we have used
these
  in off grid applications but not as AC coupled.  I have considered
  Magnum because they also do 120/240 volts but they need battery
  diversion to ensure the batteries are not over charged.
 
  None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am
  looking for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to
  existing grid-tied systems to provide some battery backup.
 
  Thanks
  Larry
 
  Larry Brown
  Sun Mountain___
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Brian,
Could you speak a bit more to this, please? My understanding is that
the need with a string (or, I suppose, micro-) inverter and a
battery-based inverter is for a way to disconnect full batteries
from being overcharged when the grid is down and sell is disabled.
The SMA approach is to shift frequency to reduce string inverter
output. I thought that the battery-based (Outback, Magnum) approach
is to use a contactor to open string inverter AC based on voltage
(crude, but effective). 

So what I understand is that the PAE inverters shift frequency: do
you mean it simulates the shift that a Sunny Island would do? And if
so, why is a diversion load recommended, and how is it configured
into the system? And where can we read more about how this is
designed to work?
Thank you,
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
   

On 9/2/2011 4:39 PM, Brian Faley wrote:

  Hi Larry, 
Magnum MS PAE inverters do indeed shift the inverter output frequency
when the battery is full in order to disconnect grid-tied inverters used
in AC coupled systems. It was designed to work in conjunction with a DC
diversion load - which is recommended if the system is larger than a
couple panels.

Regards,

Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com

  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Mark Frye]

Allen,
 
The other inverters do not simulate the SI. The SI can be paired with a SB
such that there is some degree of proportional control of the SB output
power via frequancy shifts generated by the SI. Consult SMA documentation of
SI operation available on-line at SMA website.
 
Other inverters have a one step frequency shift that will cause most grid
tied inverters to see a line frequecy fault, in turn causing them to go
off-line until the frequecy is corrected.
 
I guess that the folks at Magnum are not totally confident in this setup so
they recommend a back-up safety system which could be either a diversi9on
load or a contactor that disconnects the grid tied inverters all together.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling


Brian,
Could you speak a bit more to this, please? My understanding is that the
need with a string (or, I suppose, micro-) inverter and a battery-based
inverter is for a way to disconnect full batteries from being overcharged
when the grid is down and sell is disabled. The SMA approach is to shift
frequency to reduce string inverter output. I thought that the battery-based
(Outback, Magnum) approach is to use a contactor to open string inverter AC
based on voltage (crude, but effective). 

So what I understand is that the PAE inverters shift frequency: do you mean
it simulates the shift that a Sunny Island would do? And if so, why is a
diversion load recommended, and how is it configured into the system? And
where can we read more about how this is designed to work?
Thank you,
Allan
 

Allan Sindelar
 mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
 http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ www.positiveenergysolar.com 


On 9/2/2011 4:39 PM, Brian Faley wrote: 

Hi Larry, 

Magnum MS PAE inverters do indeed shift the inverter output frequency

when the battery is full in order to disconnect grid-tied inverters used

in AC coupled systems. It was designed to work in conjunction with a DC

diversion load - which is recommended if the system is larger than a

couple panels.



Regards,



Brian Faley

Chief Engineer

Magnum Energy

2111 W Casino Rd

Everett, WA 98204

425-353-8833

bfa...@magnumenergy.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Marv Dargatz]

This all works fine, until you fire up a generator to charge batteries.  If the 
generator remains within voltage and frequency limits, you stand a good chance 
of overvoltaging the batteries.  In this situation it is best to disable the 
utility-interactive PV system while charging batteries from the generator.

The SMA system gets around this limitation by using RS485 communication between 
the SI and the SunnyBoys.  When set to off-grid mode, the Sunnyboys will limit 
their output power limit from 100% to 0% based on commands from the SI, so 
battery voltage can be limited, even when charging from the generator.


See ya!

Marv
Director of Technology and Support, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
Tech Support North America:  +877.360.5292
Mobile: +530.392.0356

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Faley
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 5:21 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

Hi Allen,

I'll try to describe the typical AC coupled system as well as I can.

In such a system, a NON-grid tied battery based inverter (i.e. Magnum MS PAE) 
is connected as a backup inverter, only supplying AC power to consumer's loads 
when the grid is down. The micro inverter(s), or string inverters are connected 
on the load side of the inverters transfer switch, in parallel with the 
inverter output so they see AC grid power (when available) or inverter power 
when the grid goes down. The micro inverters / string inverters in such a 
system are called AC coupled inverters because the point of coupling is the AC 
system rather than the DC system. This allows the battery based inverter to 
provide the grid reference to the AC coupled grid-tied inverters when the 
utility power is not present - Backup mode. In that mode the inverter will form 
the reference for the grid tied inverters and any surplus power supplied by the 
grid-tied inverters that is not being consumed by AC loads will charge the 
battery of the inverter.  In this inverter mode, once the battery is full, the 
inverter senses it and shifts the inverter frequency by .5hz to force the grid 
tied inverters off, keeping them from exporting power, thereby stopping the 
battery from overcharging.

On a large system, a DC diversion load is usually added in parallel with the 
battery to reduce the on/off cycling of the grid tied inverters, which once the 
frequency shift happens, will try to reconnect every five minutes without it.
Using the frequency shift method only is rather crude, because it essentially 
is a bang/bang controller - off or on. Its not a matter of our lack of 
confidence in the approach, the question is do you want the battery voltage 
swinging around by several volts. In a DC diversion mode system, the surplus 
energy from the grid tied inverters can be put to work as a useful dump load 
rather than just off lining several kw of PV.

We had a white paper describing the AC couple mode. I'll see what we can do to 
make it more widely available, since the interest in such systems seems to be 
increasing.






Brian Faley

Chief Engineer

Magnum Energy

2111 W Casino Rd

Everett, WA 98204

425-353-8833

bfa...@magnumenergy.commailto:bfa...@magnumenergy.com


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

Brian,
Could you speak a bit more to this, please? My understanding is that the need 
with a string (or, I suppose, micro-) inverter and a battery-based inverter is 
for a way to disconnect full batteries from being overcharged when the grid is 
down and sell is disabled. The SMA approach is to shift frequency to reduce 
string inverter output. I thought that the battery-based (Outback, Magnum) 
approach is to use a contactor to open string inverter AC based on voltage 
(crude, but effective).

So what I understand is that the PAE inverters shift frequency: do you mean it 
simulates the shift that a Sunny Island would do? And if so, why is a diversion 
load recommended, and how is it configured into the system? And where can we 
read more about how this is designed to work?
Thank you,
Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/

On 9/2/2011 4:39 PM, Brian Faley wrote:

Hi Larry,

Magnum MS PAE inverters do indeed shift the inverter output frequency

when the battery is full in order to disconnect grid-tied inverters used

in AC coupled systems. It was designed to work in conjunction with a DC

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[jay peltz]

HI Larry,

I'll chime in here with the other option, ie no batteries at all.

Instead its a back up generator.
I've found them to be much cheaper, and if you are expecting a longer outage 
then weather is usually a problem ie its overcast and therefor you'll need a 
backup for your battery system anyway, so 
just go with the backup.

jay

peltz power


On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Larry Brown wrote:

 Wrenches,
 
 After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the 
 Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some battery 
 backup to power some essential loads.
 
 We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or a step 
 up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider Electric  
 (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this application and do 
 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these in off grid applications 
 but not as AC coupled.  I have considered Magnum because they also do 120/240 
 volts but they need battery diversion to ensure the batteries are not over 
 charged.
 
 None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am looking 
 for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to existing grid-tied 
 systems to provide some battery backup.
 
 Thanks
 Larry
 
 Larry Brown
 Sun Mountain___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Nathan Jones]

Allan,
You're not the only one with your eyes spinning here. Let me clarify a bit as I 
think you are making it more complicated than it is. There is no need for a 
manual switch. The GT inverters feed into the sub panel which is being fed by 
the Magnum. Since the Magnum is fed by the main panel there exists an automatic 
transfer switch already in place. The GT inverters push backwards through the 
Magnum via this pathway to the main panel and from there to the grid. Upon grid 
failure the Magnum opens its transfer switch disconnecting from the grid but 
continues to supply power to the sub panel. The GT inverter(s) continue to 
backfeed that panel since they did not sense the power failure but their pass 
through to the main and the grid is now open. The only pathway for any overflow 
from the sub panel is into the FETs on the Magnum where it is rectified. The 
battery cables are the only discharge path for this surplus power now. So now 
the issue is finding some way
 to regulate that backfed current to protect the batteries. And that brings us 
back to our discussion of frequency variation, dump loads, relays, etc.
Hope this helps.
Nathan Jones
Power Source Solar
Springfield, MO
417-827-0738

On Fri Sep 2nd, 2011 11:13 PM CDT Allan Sindelar wrote:

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters to EnphaseMicroinverters

[Mark Frye]

Jason,
 
My guess is that this will work just fine.
 
My comment is that according to my conversations with Enphase, they would
consider this an off-grid application for which they do not warranty their
product.
 
If this is the case, it is something your customer should understand
upfront.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters to
EnphaseMicroinverters



I read the application note here:

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8FA29
D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-01_rev-a)
.pdf

 

.and I contacted Xantrex to make sure the application note applies to other
brands of grid-tie inverters. It does according to the rep I spoke with.

 

I just wanted to find out if there is any real world experience out there
with Enphase and the XW series AC coupled. I have a customer with three
XW4024's in single phase configuration set up as a battery backup only now.
He wants to add up to 10kW. I suggested Enphase as an AC coupled system
(mainly due to the distance to the proposed array). I'm aware of the
pitfalls noted in the application note regarding high limit shutoffs. Any
thoughts?

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters toEnphaseMicroinverters

[Jason Szumlanski]

Interesting. It's only off-grid when the grid goes down, which is
presumably not often in this case. I think the actual Enphase position
is that this may void warranty. In practice, I doubt they would a)
ask, b) know, and c) actually disallow a warranty claim unless there is
system-wide damage that can be directly attributed to the off-grid
setup.

 

But to be safe I would advise the customer of this issue and make a case
for using the Xantrex GT or another brand that does not make the same
exception.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

Jason

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Frye
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:32 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters
toEnphaseMicroinverters

 

Jason,

 

My guess is that this will work just fine.

 

My comment is that according to my conversations with Enphase, they
would consider this an off-grid application for which they do not
warranty their product.

 

If this is the case, it is something your customer should understand
upfront.

 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/   

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters to
EnphaseMicroinverters

I read the application note here:

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8
FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-0
1_rev-a).pdf

 

...and I contacted Xantrex to make sure the application note applies to
other brands of grid-tie inverters. It does according to the rep I spoke
with.

 

I just wanted to find out if there is any real world experience out
there with Enphase and the XW series AC coupled. I have a customer with
three XW4024's in single phase configuration set up as a battery backup
only now. He wants to add up to 10kW. I suggested Enphase as an AC
coupled system (mainly due to the distance to the proposed array). I'm
aware of the pitfalls noted in the application note regarding high limit
shutoffs. Any thoughts?

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters toEnphaseMicroinverters

[Gary Willett]

Jason, etal

Another Schneider/Xantrex option to consider.

Xantrex will be adding the MPPT 80 to their product line (orderable this 
month). This new charge controller will allow high voltage strings 
(600V, as opposed to 150V for current CC). It will also integrate into 
the existing 4024 inverters via the XAN-Bus for charge control.


Regards,


Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer # 031310-246

On 5/3/2011 9:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:


Interesting. It's only off-grid when the grid goes down, which is 
presumably not often in this case. I think the actual Enphase position 
is that this may void warranty. In practice, I doubt they would a) 
ask, b) know, and c) actually disallow a warranty claim unless there 
is system-wide damage that can be directly attributed to the off-grid 
setup.


But to be safe I would advise the customer of this issue and make a 
case for using the Xantrex GT or another brand that does not make the 
same exception.


Thanks for the info!

Jason

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark 
Frye

*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:32 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters 
toEnphaseMicroinverters


Jason,

My guess is that this will work just fine.

My comment is that according to my conversations with Enphase, they 
would consider this an off-grid application for which they do not 
warranty their product.


If this is the case, it is something your customer should understand 
upfront.



Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/



*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Jason Szumlanski

*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:18 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters to 
EnphaseMicroinverters


I read the application note here:

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-01_rev-a).pdf 
http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note%28976-0240-01-01_rev-a%29.pdf


...and I contacted Xantrex to make sure the application note applies 
to other brands of grid-tie inverters. It does according to the rep I 
spoke with.


I just wanted to find out if there is any real world experience out 
there with Enphase and the XW series AC coupled. I have a customer 
with three XW4024's in single phase configuration set up as a battery 
backup only now. He wants to add up to 10kW. I suggested Enphase as an 
AC coupled system (mainly due to the distance to the proposed array). 
I'm aware of the pitfalls noted in the application note regarding high 
limit shutoffs. Any thoughts?


Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XWInverters toEnphaseMicroinverters

[Jason Szumlanski]

When it rains it pours... Just got a call from a competitor's Sunny Boy
owner that wants to add Enphase to an existing system.

 

Anyway, thanks for the tip on the X MPPT80. This higher voltage might
make the wire size small enough to run DC back to the existing battery
room. I guess the advantage is that this would eliminate the high
battery voltage shutdown issue. On the other hand, this would be less
efficient as far as grid selling as I understand it.

 

Jason

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary
Willett
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:40 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XWInverters
toEnphaseMicroinverters

 

Jason, etal

Another Schneider/Xantrex option to consider.

Xantrex will be adding the MPPT 80 to their product line (orderable this
month). This new charge controller will allow high voltage strings
(600V, as opposed to 150V for current CC). It will also integrate into
the existing 4024 inverters via the XAN-Bus for charge control.

Regards,


Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer # 031310-246

On 5/3/2011 9:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: 

Interesting. It's only off-grid when the grid goes down, which is
presumably not often in this case. I think the actual Enphase position
is that this may void warranty. In practice, I doubt they would a)
ask, b) know, and c) actually disallow a warranty claim unless there is
system-wide damage that can be directly attributed to the off-grid
setup.

 

But to be safe I would advise the customer of this issue and make a case
for using the Xantrex GT or another brand that does not make the same
exception.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

Jason

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Frye
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:32 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters
toEnphaseMicroinverters

 

Jason,

 

My guess is that this will work just fine.

 

My comment is that according to my conversations with Enphase, they
would consider this an off-grid application for which they do not
warranty their product.

 

If this is the case, it is something your customer should understand
upfront.

 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/   

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Xantrex XW Inverters to
EnphaseMicroinverters

I read the application note here:

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8
FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-0
1_rev-a).pdf
http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/
8FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note%28976-0240-0
1-01_rev-a%29.pdf 

 

...and I contacted Xantrex to make sure the application note applies to
other brands of grid-tie inverters. It does according to the rep I spoke
with.

 

I just wanted to find out if there is any real world experience out
there with Enphase and the XW series AC coupled. I have a customer with
three XW4024's in single phase configuration set up as a battery backup
only now. He wants to add up to 10kW. I suggested Enphase as an AC
coupled system (mainly due to the distance to the proposed array). I'm
aware of the pitfalls noted in the application note regarding high limit
shutoffs. Any thoughts?

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 

 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Gary Willett]

Thanks Mark for educating me about FSC.

Reading SMA docs, FSC allows the Sunny Boy's AC output to be varied from 
maximum to zero when the

Sunny Island varies its AC output frequency between 60Hz and 61Hz.

Based on your response - do you - or any other Wrenches - have any 
experience AC coupling the
Fronius inverters? Do they have any problem maintaining connectivity to 
the local grid
when the big grid is down? Are there any battery-based inverter/chargers 
that Fronius does not like?


I don't want to be on the bleeding edge and be the first one to ever 
design an AC coupled battery
backup system using Fronius. I will call Fronius support next, but any 
feedback from the group will

be much appreciated.

Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Solar Services LLC
mailto:g...@icarussolarservices.com

On 4/12/2011 11:37 PM, Mark Frye wrote:

Gary,
I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is 
propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything 
else you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so 
you can open a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the 
battery voltage gets too high. Once the voltage drops the contactor 
can close and bring the Fronius back on line and then the 5-minute 
start up delay before it is feeding the line again.


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
_www.berkeleysolar.com_ http://www.berkeleysolar.com/


*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Gary 
Willett

*Sent:* Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:35 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

Working on a proposal to add battery backup and a generator to an 
existing 10kW grid-tie system using the Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter.


Does anyone have any experience AC coupling this inverter to a Sunny 
Island 5048, or a Xantrex 6048? Is the Fronius capable of Frequency 
Shift control (FSC) that comes from the battery-connected inverter?


Any other suggested solutions is appreciated.

Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Solar Services LLC

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Brian Faley]

Esteemed Wrenches,

There are other battery based inverters with Frequency Shift for use in
AC coupled systems. Magnum MS4024PAE and MS4448PAE models shift the
output frequency + 0.5Hz based upon battery voltage. On 24V models the
set point is 0.2V above absorb voltage, and on 48V models it is 0.4V
above absorb. It will protect the battery against overcharge by dropping
the AC coupled Grid tied inverter offline. It can be used as a method of
regulating AC coupled grid tied systems, but works best when there is a
DC side diversion load controller.

Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com
 
 --
 
 Message: 3
 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:37:06 -0700
 From: Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com
 To: g...@icarussolarservices.com,   'RE-wrenches'
   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter
 Message-ID: 0FAC7002A96948B598E5EF79FF3D77E6@marksdell
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 
 Gary,
 
 I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is
 propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything
else
 you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so you can
 open
 a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the battery voltage
gets
 too
 high. Once the voltage drops the contactor can close and bring the
Fronius
 back on line and then the 5-minute start up delay before it is feeding
the
 line again.
 
 Mark Frye
 Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
 303 Redbud Way
 Nevada City,  CA 95959
 (530) 401-8024
  http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Brian,

My understanding is that the SI/SB combination is the only grouping of
equipment that provides proportional control of the output of the AC coupled
inverter.  

But, this is what is love about AC coupling, there are so many ways to skin
so many different kinds of cats. I really like the DC diversion side
solution if you have someplace to put the power instead of just the
batteries, although that might be generally less commonly available for
retrofits into existing on-grid households.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Faley
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:21 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

Esteemed Wrenches,

There are other battery based inverters with Frequency Shift for use in AC
coupled systems. Magnum MS4024PAE and MS4448PAE models shift the output
frequency + 0.5Hz based upon battery voltage. On 24V models the set point
is 0.2V above absorb voltage, and on 48V models it is 0.4V above absorb. It
will protect the battery against overcharge by dropping the AC coupled Grid
tied inverter offline. It can be used as a method of regulating AC coupled
grid tied systems, but works best when there is a DC side diversion load
controller.

Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com
 
 --
 
 Message: 3
 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:37:06 -0700
 From: Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com
 To: g...@icarussolarservices.com,   'RE-wrenches'
   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter
 Message-ID: 0FAC7002A96948B598E5EF79FF3D77E6@marksdell
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 
 Gary,
 
 I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is 
 propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything
else
 you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so you can 
 open a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the battery 
 voltage
gets
 too
 high. Once the voltage drops the contactor can close and bring the
Fronius
 back on line and then the 5-minute start up delay before it is feeding
the
 line again.
 
 Mark Frye
 Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
 303 Redbud Way
 Nevada City,  CA 95959
 (530) 401-8024
  http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Steve Jefferson]

SMA does make such a device. It is called the Smart Load. 
If there is an electricity surplus, the Smart Load feeds it into special 
loads, for example heating cartridges in a hot water tank. The control system 
is completely automatic, lightning fast and free of retroactive effects for 
other loads. This continuous and quick energy consumption allows for ideal 
protection of system components and guarantees increased reliability. (off our 
site).
This device is not UL listed, but can be obtained if desired.

It is possible to do this with other devices, just not sure of part numbers and 
such. I will look into it, if I find something I will let you know.

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.com
 
This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

Thanks Brian,

My understanding is that the SI/SB combination is the only grouping of
equipment that provides proportional control of the output of the AC coupled
inverter.  

But, this is what is love about AC coupling, there are so many ways to skin
so many different kinds of cats. I really like the DC diversion side
solution if you have someplace to put the power instead of just the
batteries, although that might be generally less commonly available for
retrofits into existing on-grid households.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Faley
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:21 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

Esteemed Wrenches,

There are other battery based inverters with Frequency Shift for use in AC
coupled systems. Magnum MS4024PAE and MS4448PAE models shift the output
frequency + 0.5Hz based upon battery voltage. On 24V models the set point
is 0.2V above absorb voltage, and on 48V models it is 0.4V above absorb. It
will protect the battery against overcharge by dropping the AC coupled Grid
tied inverter offline. It can be used as a method of regulating AC coupled
grid tied systems, but works best when there is a DC side diversion load
controller.

Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy
2111 W Casino Rd
Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833
bfa...@magnumenergy.com
 
 --
 
 Message: 3
 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:37:06 -0700
 From: Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com
 To: g...@icarussolarservices.com,   'RE-wrenches'
   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter
 Message-ID: 0FAC7002A96948B598E5EF79FF3D77E6@marksdell
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 
 Gary,
 
 I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is 
 propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything
else
 you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so you can 
 open a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the battery 
 voltage
gets
 too
 high. Once the voltage drops the contactor can close and bring the
Fronius
 back on line and then the 5-minute start up delay before it is feeding
the
 line again.
 
 Mark Frye
 Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
 303 Redbud Way
 Nevada City,  CA 95959
 (530) 401-8024
  http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Steve Jefferson]

AFRA is a setting that is used when the SI is in an off-grid situation (can be 
grid tied, just that the grid is not available). If there is a generator that 
is providing power at a higher frequency, when the Sunny Island disconnects 
from the gen, it will lower the frequency (below 60Hz), to adjust clocks for 
the higher Hz that the gen was providing.
SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.comhttp://www.sma-america.com/

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Mark . Edmunds]

Hi Mark, Gary,

The Xantrex XW series inverters will  do a frequency shift to cause most 
models of grid-tied inverter to disconnect when the batteries are full, 
while the system is operating in an ac coupled off-grid mode. The 
following app-note describes this operation.

Cheers,

Mark

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852577A4005D7372/all/8FA29D94B918A0FB8525781F0072FCA7/$File/ac-coupling-app-note(976-0240-01-01_rev-a).pdf

_
 


Mark Edmunds, P.Eng.  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies 
Business  |   CANADA  |   Director - Advanced Engineering 
Phone: +1-604-422-2609  |   Fax: +1-604-420-1591  |   Mobile: 
+1-604-613-3285 
Email: mark.edmu...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: 
www.schneider-electric.com/renewable-energies   |   Address: 8999 Nelson 
Way, Burnaby, BC, V5A 4B5, Canada 

*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 




From:
Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com
To:
g...@icarussolarservices.com, 'RE-wrenches' 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date:
04/12/2011 09:37 PM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter
Sent by:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org



Gary,
 
I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is 
propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything else 
you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so you can 
open a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the battery voltage 
gets too high. Once the voltage drops the contactor can close and bring 
the Fronius back on line and then the 5-minute start up delay before it is 
feeding the line again.

Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary 
Willett
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:35 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

Working on a proposal to add battery backup and a generator to an existing 
10kW grid-tie system using the Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter.

Does anyone have any experience AC coupling this inverter to a Sunny 
Island 5048, or a Xantrex 6048? Is the Fronius capable of Frequency Shift 
control (FSC) that comes from the battery-connected inverter?

Any other suggested solutions is appreciated.

Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Solar Services LLC


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter

[Mark Frye]

Gary,
 
I have been looking at some AC coupled stuff lately. The FSC is
propriatary to SMA, Sunny Island to Sunny Boy.  Pretty much anything else
you need something to sense the voltage of the battery bank so you can open
a contactor on the AC line to the Fronius when the battery voltage gets too
high. Once the voltage drops the contactor can close and bring the Fronius
back on line and then the 5-minute start up delay before it is feeding the
line again.

Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Willett
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:35 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter


Working on a proposal to add battery backup and a generator to an existing
10kW grid-tie system using the Fronius IG Plus 10.0 inverter.

Does anyone have any experience AC coupling this inverter to a Sunny Island
5048, or a Xantrex 6048? Is the Fronius capable of Frequency Shift control
(FSC) that comes from the battery-connected inverter?

Any other suggested solutions is appreciated.




Gary Willett, PE
Icarus Solar Services LLC
 mailto:g...@icarussolarservices.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling to an Endurance wind machine

[Darryl Thayer]

Was Return Amps
Thanks Roy 
I usually leap then look, 
The customer has it already,   I ran it yesterday, on AC couple into the 
standalone system, I learned a lot.  But it ran, and I am working out some of 
the surprises I had.  I am building up two inverter boards with the systems to 
control the excess battery charging.    I hope that Endurance does not get mad 
at me.  It appears to be very will built machine.  

I am also trying to modify my Dyno to drive the machine, so I can do some 
controlled testing.   

BTW when the anemometer indicates wind is present, the motor runs to start the 
blades,  I was measuring up to 6400 watts surge.  After it starts, it is 
impressive the power output.  I have another install but hope to return with 
new parts on Wed of next week.  I will keep all informed.   And all ideas are 
welcome and probably needed.  
Darryl

--- On Fri, 7/23/10, Roy Butler r...@four-winds-energy.com wrote:

From: Roy Butler r...@four-winds-energy.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Friday, July 23, 2010, 4:04 PM



  


  Darryl,



You are probably aware of this but the Endurance machines are 240
VAC induction machines.

I had asked about their policy on AC coupling their turbines for off
grid use and they were

less than enthusiastic.



You might want to touch base with Endurance Wind Power before
proceeding.

Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV  wind installer
PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747

www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.





On 7/22/2010 9:09 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

  

  
I am talking with a
  customer who wants to do a standalone system using an
  Endurance wind machine, solar, and genset.   I have no
  experience with Endurance other than to know it is a good
  machine.  Talking with Magnum today they informed me that
  the MS 4XXX PAE inverter, combined with the ARC remote
  control, and BMK battery monitoring kit can do enhanced
  SOC control.  Has anyone compared this with the Outback as
  I have not used the PAE inverter yet, only the AE
  inverter?  

  Darryl

  

  --- On Wed, 7/21/10, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com
  wrote:

  

From: Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

To: RE-wrenches
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 9:35 PM




  

  
That is
  a good question, I have not an answer, but of
  course it should be based on the amp hour of
  the battery bank, absorb charging voltage, and
  of course the charging source in the case of
  generators.  Following Ron's advise start at
  C/5 for SOC less than 50% then C/10 till about
  70% SOC and then C/15 till 80% then C/20 to 90
  %. the problem we have no way to set these
  values, Perhaps Ron could give is a routine? 
  The closet to SOC charging is the Outback and
  then the Magnum but both miss the goal.  

  

  --- On Wed, 7/21/10, Dana d...@solarwork.com
  wrote:

  

From: Dana d...@solarwork.com

Subject: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

To: 'RE-wrenches'
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 5:54 PM




  


  
As the % of full charge
is related to the of degree
absorption
 gravity [the denser  more
charged acid descending, and lighter
acid rising]
@ what point in the absorption would
be prudent to stop charging?
  
   

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling induction generators (was Solar and pumped hydro)

[Hugh]

Jay mentions a topic that I've had a question about.  Has anybody 
AC-coupled an induction generator (wind or hydro) with a 
conventional battery based inverter?


Yes I have.

 On the surface it seems that it would work fine as long as there 
were appropriate means included in the design to avoid over-charging 
the battery.


Yes the inverter takes care of that.  I used a Trace PS inverter at 
each house and fed them all from one hydro.  It was necessary to 
juggle the gen size setting in each house to meet the turbine flow 
setting at that time.  It worked much better than I expected to be 
honest.  The efficiency of direct use is excellent and the ability to 
suck power out of the battery at peak times made the small turbine 
much more effective for a large group of users.


Maybe one of you off-grid hydro Wrenches has done this.  Thanks for 
any insights...


It's very important to have a voltage regulator on the hydro.  There 
is also plenty of dump power to be allocated.


I got my controller from  Nigel Smith ni...@sustainablecontrol.com.

--
Hugh Piggott

Scoraig Wind Electric
Scotland
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling-mix and match

[Darryl Thayer]

I have done several using Outback, and had good results.  I have done AC couple 
with PVPowered, the old red box SB, and Xantrex GT .  All with OUtback as the 
AC source.  I have done it with single Outback and a PSX240 and classic stacked 
OUtback.  My results have been very good.  

I have done it with grid tied and standalone.
I have not tried other battery based inverters.
DT 


--- On Mon, 3/23/09, Tump t...@hughes.net wrote:

 From: Tump t...@hughes.net
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling-mix and match
 To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Date: Monday, March 23, 2009, 3:54 PM
 I have a XW6048 working w/ a SMA + a xantrex suntie. I did
 have issues that
 required me to install the SMA breaker at the top of the
 buss bar.I'll see
 if it will work with a Enphase
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
 Behalf Of i...@aol.com
 Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:57 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;
 mdarg...@enphaseenergy.com
 Cc: o...@aol.com; i...@aol.com
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling-mix and match
 
 
 
 Wrenches,
  
 I have been doing some experimenting --testing
 compatibility between brands
 of grid tie inverters and sign wave battery type inverters.
 I am hoping some
 of you also have  some experience here and we can compare
 results.
  
 My interest is fueled by my belief that AC coupling is the
 ideal way to
 increase system capacity  for battery based off grid
 systems. The primary
 benefit is higher system efficiency for AC loads used
 during the day. I
 realize that power management becomes important but my
 interest right now is
 just to find out who talks to who. My ultimate power
 management tool will
 be an electric vehicle. Charging it will undoubtedly suck
 up available
 juice.
  
 So far:
  
 SMA synchronizes to Xantrex SW (have not tested the XW yet)
 and Outback and
 of course the SMA Sunny Island
  
 Xantrex GT also syncs to the SW
  
 I started this project with Enphase as my first choice
 since their system is
 so scaleable. I have been unable to make Enphase sync. Marv
 at Enphase has
 been very helpful but to date no results.  I have, at
 Marv's suggestion
 ,used capacitors to clean the somewhat hashy SW output
 without results. Marv
 tells me he is testing Enphase and Outback. Does anyone
 have experience
 syncing Enphase to other offgrid inverters?
  
 Any experiences with Fronius and others.? 
  
 Though the SW output is not the cleanest, the results with
 SB and GT are
 very stable. They hookup early AM and its steady green
 light all day long.
 Though I use microwave, start induction motors etc, and my
 scope clearly
 shows lots of spikes during these events, the GT and SB
 hang in.
  
 What are the experiences from others regarding mix and
 match?.
 Interoperability among brands seems to be a very desirable
 goal to this
 wrench.
  
 Don Loweburg
 Offline Solar, Inc
 
 


  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Christopher Freitas]

Tump - 

 

Tump ~ 

 

Unfortunately,  software can be that way...  and the time and cost
involved in re-certifying grid-tie software changes has become extremely
expensive and time consuming.  This results in us trying to batch as
many changes as possible.  

 

We have numerous AC coupled systems working very well around the world
with success.The new products you mentioned have all be very well
received - and are selling briskly.  There are many other new products
you did not mention that were completed as well but are for specific
customers or the international market

 

I am not sure what you feel needs to be tweeked still?  Can you let me
know.  

 

Thanks!  

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com http://www.outbackpower.com/ 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tump
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:16 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

 

Chris, 

What ever happened to the software that Greg was working on when this
idea first came about. During our first AC Coupled system, summer of
06,this was another item you folks at OB were excited about  indicated
that the charge regulation/AC coupling software was just on the horizon.

Instead you have given us flex ware,flex net, MX 80s  other BOS
components,some of which still need to be tweeked.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Christopher Freitas
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

Thanks for the nice comment... 

 

AC coupling with the OutBack off-grid inverters and a typical
batteryless grid-tie inverter doesn't require any additional transfer
switches or protective relays - its actually pretty simple depending on
how fancy the battery charging regulation needs to be.  

 

It can be very cost effective and worth considering on any
projects. 

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com http://www.outbackpower.com/ 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Tump]

Chris, 
What ever happened to the software that Greg was working on when this idea
first came about. During our first AC Coupled system, summer of 06,this was
another item you folks at OB were excited about  indicated that the charge
regulation/AC coupling software was just on the horizon.
Instead you have given us flex ware,flex net, MX 80s  other BOS
components,some of which still need to be tweeked.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher
Freitas
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling



Thanks for the nice comment. 

 

AC coupling with the OutBack off-grid inverters and a typical batteryless
grid-tie inverter doesn't require any additional transfer switches or
protective relays - its actually pretty simple depending on how fancy the
battery charging regulation needs to be.  

 

It can be very cost effective and worth considering on any projects. 

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

 http://www.outbackpower.com/ www.outbackpower.com

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in error, then delete it. Thank you.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Kirk Herander, VSE]

Chris,

 

Pls explain no additional relays required. I've done an ac-coupled system
and used a protective relay because I was told to do so at an Outback
workshop by your techs, because the Outback cannot regulate the AC charge
current coming from (in this case) the SunnyBoy string inverters. Is this
not the case?

 

Kirk Herander

Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202

fax 802.863-7908

NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer

Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member

NYSERDA-eligible installer

VT Solar Incentive Program Partner

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher
Freitas
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

 

Thanks for the nice comment. 

 

AC coupling with the OutBack off-grid inverters and a typical batteryless
grid-tie inverter doesn't require any additional transfer switches or
protective relays - its actually pretty simple depending on how fancy the
battery charging regulation needs to be.  

 

It can be very cost effective and worth considering on any projects. 

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

 http://www.outbackpower.com/ www.outbackpower.com

MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Christopher Freitas]

Kirk - 

 

Yes it does require the additional relay as a minimum for disconnecting
the AC coupled battery-less grid-tie inverter.   I did not think of that
as a protective relay (which is a term utility engineers use for a
protective device intended to prevent islanding of a generator usually -
it is a relay with its own voltage and/or frequency sensing circuitry
built in).  

 

The point I was trying to make is that its pretty straight forward -
just need one 12vdc coil AC relay between the OutBack inverter and the
battery-less grid-tie inverter - unless you are also wanting to have a
back-up generator as well which will then require an additional manual
or automatic AC transfer switch...

 

Still pretty simple compared to many of the off-grid systems which most
of the wrenches have installed.  

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com http://www.outbackpower.com/ 
 

MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Drake Chamberlin]

AC coupling of off grid Outback inverters seems 
to be a very good solution for having a generator 
backup system while feeding the grid.  The 
generator won't have a problem synchronizing with 
the off grid FX, and the grid tie inverter will 
take care of the UL 1741 requirements.  Of 
course, transfer switches and protective relays 
will be required.  Depending on the grid tie 
inverter used, this approach should be cost 
effective compared to using the new Xantrex 
equipment.  Also, the Outback technical support is excellent.


Drake


At 11:03 AM 11/5/2008, you wrote:

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C93F70.CCF378DB

I should have also mentioned that the “dump” or 
“diversion” control  can be done via an AC load 
with a relatively inexpensive AC solid-state 
relay and AC loads such as AC baseboard or AC 
electric water heater elements – which are much 
easier and less expensive than doing it with the 
lower voltage / higher current DC relay and loads.


The OutBack FX series offers an AUX output 
control mode for both AC and DC diversion which 
has a fixed voltage level but has an adjustable 
“on” time which can be set to zero for 
applications using a solid-state relay.


Christopher






Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[mick abraham]

Dave Katz sent a drawing which breaks the AC connection between grid-tie 
inverter and battery based inverters when the battery voltage is high.I've seen 
similar sketches from others.

 Thanks as always, Dave...but it seems that in this arrangement the amperage to 
the battery is either 100% on or 100% off, with no finely tapering pulse width 
modulation as is commonly preferred for a good finish charge. On/off hysteresis 
would be relatively slow just as in the days of Trace C-30 type charge 
controllers.

Is there a shift to float voltage with this simple setup? What about 
temperature compensation? Those are not accusations, just questions because I'm 
unsure whether the Outback auxiliary control output manages using those factors.

If the battery lifetime suffers because of rough management at the end of 
charge, that's a hidden cost which reduces the appeal of using a simple AC 
relay. Pulse width modulated diversion into a dump load may be better for the 
battery (especially with float mode and temperature compensation)...but that 
requires a controller, dump resistor,  circuit for relatively high amperage DC 
at the battery voltage, so there goes part of the cost benefit of AC coupling.

One must weigh the cost of fancy charge control methods against the cost of 
possible battery degradation using the simple method in Dave's drawing. The 
battery degradation cost (if any) is difficult to predict, and may vary from 
one installation to another. If the AC loads during the daytime are big 
relative to the array size, the battery may only be receiving a trickle charge 
anyway.  

Mick Abraham, Proprietor 
www.abrahamsolar.com 
Voice: 970-731-4675
    

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling

[Christopher Freitas]

I should have also mentioned that the dump or diversion control  can
be done via an AC load with a relatively inexpensive AC solid-state
relay and AC loads such as AC baseboard or AC electric water heater
elements - which are much easier and less expensive than doing it with
the lower voltage / higher current DC relay and loads.  

 

The OutBack FX series offers an AUX output control mode for both AC and
DC diversion which has a fixed voltage level but has an adjustable on
time which can be set to zero for applications using a solid-state
relay.   

 

Christopher

 


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