Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[August Goers]

I'm not clear on the specific situation the inspector was speaking about -
it could have been inter-module conductors under the array or it could have
been between an array and remote junction box.



It sounds like generally speaking they should be run together. -August



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay peltz
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 19, 2013 10:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



Hi August,



I can only assume that the inspectors are talking about say running a
return leg which would have no pair back to the combiner/junction box?





jay



peltz power



On Nov 19, 2013, at 9:38 AM, August Goers wrote:



Hi All –



On a related note, I’ve become good friends with some of the inspectors in
San Francisco and they called me yesterday with a question. Is it okay to
run *individual* DC conductors through EMT for wire management purposes? We
have always run paired positive and negative conductors in conduit so the
question had never occurred to me. Obviously, you have to bond both ends of
the conduit if it is over 250 v. I know that AC would have induction issues
with running individual conductors but I’m not sure with DC.



Thanks,



August





August Goers

Principal

Luminalt Energy Corporation

o: 415.641.4000

m: 415.559.1525

www.luminalt.com







*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2013 11:33 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



Bill:



There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either
slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.
The connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in
Northern California..



Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:



http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html



Since the industry won’t provide wire management solutions, we are making
our own.  Questions:  Just write or call.



William Miller



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of *frenergy
*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



William, Billfrom another Bill,



Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and
my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is
rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have
been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new
even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
racking, thus not compromising the insulation.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Glenn Burt]

Hi August,

 

The handbook has a note regarding this under 690.31(B):

 

. Long runs of separated conductors (with loop inductance and distributed
capacitance) and the resulting long-time constants in dc circuits may result
in improper operation of overcurrent devices. It is suggested that, wherever
possible, both positive and negative conductors of each circuit and the
equipment grounding conductor be routed as close together as possible to
minimize the circuit time constant. The smaller loop resulting from the
close routing also decreases induced currents from nearby lightning
strikes..

 

-Glenn

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

Hi All -

 

On a related note, I've become good friends with some of the inspectors in
San Francisco and they called me yesterday with a question. Is it okay to
run individual DC conductors through EMT for wire management purposes? We
have always run paired positive and negative conductors in conduit so the
question had never occurred to me. Obviously, you have to bond both ends of
the conduit if it is over 250 v. I know that AC would have induction issues
with running individual conductors but I'm not sure with DC.

 

Thanks,

 

August

 

 

August Goers

Principal

Luminalt Energy Corporation

o: 415.641.4000

m: 415.559.1525

www.luminalt.com

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 11:33 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

Bill:

 

There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either
slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.
The connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in Northern
California..

 

Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:

 

http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html

 

Since the industry won't provide wire management solutions, we are making
our own.  Questions:  Just write or call.

 

William Miller

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

William, Billfrom another Bill,

 

Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and
my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is
rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have
been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even
when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation
can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the
wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not
compromising the insulation. 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[jay peltz]

Hi August,

I can only assume that the inspectors are talking about say running a return 
leg which would have no pair back to the combiner/junction box?


jay

peltz power

On Nov 19, 2013, at 9:38 AM, August Goers wrote:

> Hi All –
>  
> On a related note, I’ve become good friends with some of the inspectors in 
> San Francisco and they called me yesterday with a question. Is it okay to run 
> individual DC conductors through EMT for wire management purposes? We have 
> always run paired positive and negative conductors in conduit so the question 
> had never occurred to me. Obviously, you have to bond both ends of the 
> conduit if it is over 250 v. I know that AC would have induction issues with 
> running individual conductors but I’m not sure with DC.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> August
>  
>  
> August Goers
> Principal
> Luminalt Energy Corporation
> o: 415.641.4000
> m: 415.559.1525
> www.luminalt.com
>  
>  
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 11:33 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>  
> Bill:
>  
> There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either 
> slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.  The 
> connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in Northern 
> California..
>  
> Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:
>  
> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html
>  
> Since the industry won’t provide wire management solutions, we are making our 
> own.  Questions:  Just write or call.
>  
> William Miller
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>  
> William, Billfrom another Bill,
>  
> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still 
> trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and 
> my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or 
> chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is 
> rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have 
> been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even 
> when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation 
> can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the 
> wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not 
> compromising the insulation. 
>  
> ___
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Jesse Dahl]

August,

Timely question. I am working with a TenK solar array right now and the wire 
management from TenK is poor. From the combiner to the inverter they have #2 CU 
in free air. It looks ugly. The inverter won't allow for one raceway with both 
conductors plus ground. If each could be installed in their own raceway it 
would work, would look much better and be safer (IMHO). 

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:38 AM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> Hi All –
>  
> On a related note, I’ve become good friends with some of the inspectors in 
> San Francisco and they called me yesterday with a question. Is it okay to run 
> individual DC conductors through EMT for wire management purposes? We have 
> always run paired positive and negative conductors in conduit so the question 
> had never occurred to me. Obviously, you have to bond both ends of the 
> conduit if it is over 250 v. I know that AC would have induction issues with 
> running individual conductors but I’m not sure with DC.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> August
>  
>  
> August Goers
> Principal
> Luminalt Energy Corporation
> o: 415.641.4000
> m: 415.559.1525
> www.luminalt.com
>  
>  
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 11:33 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>  
> Bill:
>  
> There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either 
> slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.  The 
> connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in Northern 
> California..
>  
> Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:
>  
> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html
>  
> Since the industry won’t provide wire management solutions, we are making our 
> own.  Questions:  Just write or call.
>  
> William Miller
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>  
> William, Billfrom another Bill,
>  
> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still 
> trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and 
> my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or 
> chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is 
> rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have 
> been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even 
> when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation 
> can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the 
> wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not 
> compromising the insulation. 
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[August Goers]

Hi All –



On a related note, I’ve become good friends with some of the inspectors in
San Francisco and they called me yesterday with a question. Is it okay to
run *individual* DC conductors through EMT for wire management purposes? We
have always run paired positive and negative conductors in conduit so the
question had never occurred to me. Obviously, you have to bond both ends of
the conduit if it is over 250 v. I know that AC would have induction issues
with running individual conductors but I’m not sure with DC.



Thanks,



August





August Goers

Principal

Luminalt Energy Corporation

o: 415.641.4000

m: 415.559.1525

www.luminalt.com







*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2013 11:33 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



Bill:



There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either
slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.
The connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in
Northern California..



Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:



http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html



Since the industry won’t provide wire management solutions, we are making
our own.  Questions:  Just write or call.



William Miller



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *frenergy
*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



William, Billfrom another Bill,



Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and
my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is
rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have
been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new
even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[William Miller]

Bill:

 

There is no need to stuff MC4 cables into standard conduit.  You can either
slot the pipe using our easy method or install bulkhead type connectors.
The connectors are readily available.  I get them from PV Cables in Northern
California..

 

Wire routing problems and some solutions can be found on our web-site:

 

http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html

 

Since the industry won't provide wire management solutions, we are making
our own.  Questions:  Just write or call.

 

William Miller

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

William, Billfrom another Bill,

 

Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and
my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is
rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have
been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even
when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation
can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the
wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not
compromising the insulation. 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[William Miller]

Bill:

 

Please let it be known that I have the utmost respect for you even though we
disagree on this subject.

 

Question:  How do you know the fire was caused by a module failure?  I saw
the photos and the specimen was pretty well incinerated.  It seems the fire
could have originated in the wiring and spread to the module.

 

I may be completely off-base in regards to the quality of work in Europe.
It is my understanding that in some areas it is allowed to run unprotected
PV cables from the array to the inverter and then unprotected AC cables from
the inverter to the breaker panel.  Please let me know if my information is
wrong.

 

And I do agree with the problems associated with long conduit runs.
Roof-top tray systems are out of my experience set so I will assume this is
a reliable method until I learn otherwise.  Long conduit home runs can be
done safely, however, if the proper materials and procedures are used.

 

Thanks for the dialog and the very best to you.

 

Sincerely,

 

William Miller

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:28 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

William,

 

I know your long-time stance on conduit. It has its place. This report was
about an integrated PV system that caught fire because of a module
failure-this was not a cable management issue. We can all jump on our
respective soap boxes and pontificate-I have no problem with that.

 

I don't think you are correct on either reason for "lax wire standards".

 

1.   When 12- and 24-V systems were done, they were all in conduit until
post 2000 when cable and connector systems began to be used. Not the reason
for lax standards.

2.   Cable management is not more lax in Europe. You typical German
electrician (far more competent than your average American electrician),
works with exterior cabling systems all the time in ac wiring. They do
beautiful work in general-there are always exceptions to every
generalization, but we have a lot to learn from them.

 

Lastly-conduit systems on large rooftop PV systems have proven to be very
problematic to the point where I would not recommend the use of metallic
conduit on feeders longer than 200-feet. Everything should be in cable tray.

 

Down off my soapbox-with all respect in the world to you. Hop up again if
you please.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:42 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

Bill:

 

I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly installed."  If
your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are protected
from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected after
the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will fail well
before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties fail,
your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail, rodents
can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be using
it.

 

I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I don't
think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I think
wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any other
high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
inspector.

 

I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection standards for
two reasons:  

 

1.In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was treated
as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of conventional low
voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.

2.It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are not
stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years.  Products
were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had to work with
the equipment available.

 

Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have seen
PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get damaged under
BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV wire is more
important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring because PV circuits
are more prone to create and sustain arcing.

 

Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much expense to PV
installations.  Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably, injuries and
deaths.  One news story about an obscure, rarely used product is already
causing many of us headaches.  Statisticall

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[frenergy]

Wrenches,

too many to list that have offered insights and suggestions, thanks 
for all your input regarding wire management.  I'm going to order some of the 
suggestions given and also go back to more of my old installs and see how my 
past wiring methods are holding up.  Apparently the SS wire ties I was looking 
at from Grainger were gold plated!

I appreciate all the input.

Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ray Walters 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods


  Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic zip 
ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last time I looked 
at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.

  Thanks,

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:

Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable 
tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl 
jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately $.59 
eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not have any 
sharp edges and are easy to install 
Hope that helps




Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Chris Mason]

HellermannTyton has a free solar sample pack with various UV stable cable
ties, stainless ties, labels, etc. I got my vendor to send one and from
that ordered a bunch of useful items.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Benn At DayStarSolar
wrote:

> SS cable ties for ~.33/ea
> http://electricalwireties.com
>
> benn
> Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts
> and typos.
>
> On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
>
> Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic
> zip ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last time
> I looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.
>
> Thanks,
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760
>
> On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>
> Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable
> tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl
> jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately
> $.59 eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not
> have any sharp edges and are easy to install
> Hope that helps
>
>
>  Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy  wrote:
>
>>  William, Billfrom another Bill,
>>
>> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's
>> still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into
>> conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges
>> cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the
>> roof is rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems
>> that have been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks
>> nearly new even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
>> the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
>> management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
>> racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
>>
>> I know many on this list are way past this point in their
>> installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K
>> folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.
>> Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help
>> those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living
>> in the boonies.
>>
>> Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded
>> edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such
>> things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3
>> each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is
>> that an issue?  Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field
>> for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to
>> the wire ties?
>> Thanks for your help and patience,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA  95983
>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>> "solar powered since 1982"
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Bill Loesch" 
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>>
>>  >
>> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as
>> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
>> >
>> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire
>> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
>> >
>> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
>> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
>> >
>> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
>> >
>> > Bill Loesch
>> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bill:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly
>> >> installed."  If
>> >> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
>> >> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[jay peltz]

Hi Bill,

I get mine from PV-cables
Less expensive and no minimum order

Cheers,

jay 

peltz power
On Nov 14, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote:

> Jason
> 
> I just started using Nine Fasteners, Inc  www.ninefasteners.com  . 410 
> stainless wire management clips.  Got turned on to them at SPI this year. 
> They are awesome, same basic clip concept except they add a nice rounding 
> along the edges that keeps it from cutting into the wire.  A step above the 
> rest and in quantities of 500 buy direct for $.28 - .29 each depending on the 
> style.  They are open to custom design ideas, made in the good old USA, and 
> customer service was outstanding too!
> 
> Bill Hoffer
> Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski  
> wrote:
> I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again recommend the 
> WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk lines, and find 
> them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are cost effective.
> 
> That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and we are 
> far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:
> Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco productmy 
> bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru 
> http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp
> 
> Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact info..
> Cheers, 
> 
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> -- 
> Bill Hoffer 
> 161 SE Fourth Ave
> P.O. Box 1823
> White Salmon, WA 98672
> suneng...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Bill Hoffer]

Jason

I just started using Nine Fasteners, Inc  www.ninefasteners.com  . 410
stainless wire management clips.  Got turned on to them at SPI this year.
They are awesome, same basic clip concept except they add a nice rounding
along the edges that keeps it from cutting into the wire.  A step above the
rest and in quantities of 500 buy direct for $.28 - .29 each depending on
the style.  They are open to custom design ideas, made in the good old USA,
and customer service was outstanding too!

Bill Hoffer
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

> I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again recommend
> the WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk lines,
> and find them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are cost
> effective.
>
> That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and we are
> far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Fafco Solar
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>
>> Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
>> productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
>> http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp
>>
>> Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
>> info..
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>> 541-218-0201 m
>> 541-592-3958 o
>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>


-- 
Bill Hoffer
161 SE Fourth Ave
P.O. Box 1823
White Salmon, WA 98672
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Ray Walters]

I definitely think cable tray is a good compromise between conduit and 
loose zip tie wiring; I primarily question rodent protection.
Even cable trays can go horribly wrong:  I've seen them not supported 
properly and bend or even fall over spilling cables onto the roof or ground.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/14/2013 5:27 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:


William,

I know your long-time stance on conduit. It has its place. This report 
was about an integrated PV system that caught fire because of a module 
failure---this was not a cable management issue. We can all jump on 
our respective soap boxes and pontificate---I have no problem with that.


I don't think you are correct on either reason for "lax wire standards".

1.When 12- and 24-V systems were done, they were all in conduit until 
post 2000 when cable and connector systems began to be used. Not the 
reason for lax standards.


2.Cable management is not more lax in Europe. You typical German 
electrician (far more competent than your average American 
electrician), works with exterior cabling systems all the time in ac 
wiring. They do beautiful work in general---there are always 
exceptions to every generalization, but we have a lot to learn from them.


Lastly---conduit systems on large rooftop PV systems have proven to be 
very problematic to the point where I would not recommend the use of 
metallic conduit on feeders longer than 200-feet. Everything should be 
in cable tray.


Down off my soapbox---with all respect in the world to you. Hop up 
again if you please.


Bill.

*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*William Miller

*Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:42 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

Bill:

I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly 
installed."  If your connections are tight and permanent and the 
conductors are protected from damage, you have a great chance of a 
reliable, safe lifetime of service.  How can you guarantee that your 
leads will stay protected after the ties fail?  Studies show that even 
UV resistant wire ties will fail well before the life expectancy of 
the system has expired.  When the ties fail, your PV leads are hanging 
on the roof.  Even before the ties fail, rodents can chew on them.  
Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be using it.


I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I 
don't think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring 
practices.  I think wire protection is just as important on PV 
circuits as it is on any other high voltage circuit.  Try getting away 
with wiring a rooftop air conditioning unit by tying the conductors to 
some metal framework with plastic ties and see how long it takes to 
get red-tagged by your local inspector.


I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection 
standards for two reasons:


1.In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was 
treated as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of 
conventional low voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.


2.It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are not 
stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years.  
Products were built to satisfy the European market and US standards 
had to work with the equipment available.


Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have 
seen PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get 
damaged under BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV 
wire is more  important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring 
because PV circuits are more prone to create and sustain arcing.


Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much expense 
to PV installations.  Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably, 
injuries and deaths.  One news story about an obscure, rarely used 
product is already causing many of us headaches.  Statistically, it is 
inevitable that more accidents will happen. I don't want that on my 
conscience.


I would suggest that we need to expand the discussion beyond fire 
hazards.  I also worry about electrocution hazards in high voltage PV 
circuits. Good wire protection is essential in preventing contact with 
high voltages.


Unprotected PV wiring is an irresponsible practice.  I am fighting an 
uphill battle to develops methods to protect PV wiring because the 
industry is not helping at all.  The trend has been to make it harder 
to protect wiring.  This trend will result in accidents.  I think we 
should do better.


Sincerely,

William Miller

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill 
Brooks

*Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 3

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Ray Walters]

I'm ordering the Jason's PV wire clips.  Vinyl coated metal will outlast 
any plastic sip, and they clip into the slot on the rails: much cleaner 
than a zip tie all the way around the rail.  It doesn't cure all our 
wire management issues, but it looks like it will solve some of it.  In 
combination with the SS clips that secure wire to the module frames, and 
Kirpal's vinyl coated SS cable ties, at least we have an array of 
products that (theoretically) will last as long as the modules.   I'd 
still like to see William's dream of wires protected from the module to 
the combiner.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/14/2013 5:39 PM, Bill Loesch wrote:
That said [PV WireClips], wire management is often a matter of strong 
opinion, and we are

far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar


Jason,

Can your wire management procedures equal the 20, 25, or 30 year 
warranty your modules offer? I hope so, and I hope your client is 
expecting the installation to last as long as the modules.


If the standardization is late in coming, establish your own best 
practices. This forum offers a leg up on those folks who do not keep 
current and similarly, those willing to do only what the status quo 
requires.


Respectfully,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:


I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again recommend
the WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk lines,
and find them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are cost
effective.

That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and 
we are

far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  
wrote:



Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp

Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
info..
Cheers,

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o





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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Bill Loesch]

That said [PV WireClips], wire management is often a matter of strong 
opinion, and we are

far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar


Jason,

Can your wire management procedures equal the 20, 25, or 30 year 
warranty your modules offer? I hope so, and I hope your client is 
expecting the installation to last as long as the modules.


If the standardization is late in coming, establish your own best 
practices. This forum offers a leg up on those folks who do not keep 
current and similarly, those willing to do only what the status quo 
requires.


Respectfully,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again 
recommend
the WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk 
lines,
and find them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are 
cost

effective.

That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and we 
are

far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  
wrote:



Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp

Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
info..
Cheers,

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o





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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Bill Brooks]

William,

 

I know your long-time stance on conduit. It has its place. This report was
about an integrated PV system that caught fire because of a module
failure-this was not a cable management issue. We can all jump on our
respective soap boxes and pontificate-I have no problem with that.

 

I don't think you are correct on either reason for "lax wire standards".

 

1.   When 12- and 24-V systems were done, they were all in conduit until
post 2000 when cable and connector systems began to be used. Not the reason
for lax standards.

2.   Cable management is not more lax in Europe. You typical German
electrician (far more competent than your average American electrician),
works with exterior cabling systems all the time in ac wiring. They do
beautiful work in general-there are always exceptions to every
generalization, but we have a lot to learn from them.

 

Lastly-conduit systems on large rooftop PV systems have proven to be very
problematic to the point where I would not recommend the use of metallic
conduit on feeders longer than 200-feet. Everything should be in cable tray.

 

Down off my soapbox-with all respect in the world to you. Hop up again if
you please.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:42 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

 

Bill:

 

I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly installed."  If
your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are protected
from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected after
the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will fail well
before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties fail,
your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail, rodents
can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be using
it.

 

I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I don't
think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I think
wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any other
high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
inspector.

 

I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection standards for
two reasons:  

 

1.In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was treated
as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of conventional low
voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.

2.It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are not
stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years.  Products
were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had to work with
the equipment available.

 

Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have seen
PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get damaged under
BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV wire is more
important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring because PV circuits
are more prone to create and sustain arcing.

 

Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much expense to PV
installations.  Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably, injuries and
deaths.  One news story about an obscure, rarely used product is already
causing many of us headaches.  Statistically, it is inevitable that more
accidents will happen. I don't want that on my conscience.

 

I would suggest that we need to expand the discussion beyond fire hazards.
I also worry about electrocution hazards in high voltage PV circuits. Good
wire protection is essential in preventing contact with high voltages.

 

Unprotected PV wiring is an irresponsible practice.  I am fighting an uphill
battle to develops methods to protect PV wiring because the industry is not
helping at all.  The trend has been to make it harder to protect wiring.
This trend will result in accidents.  I think we should do better.

 

Sincerely,

 

William Miller

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:38 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423

 

William and David,

 

This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The longer we
wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the more we will
have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings forward.
Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a problem-sure, just
like anything improperly installed.

 

At the end of th

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Benn At DayStarSolar]

SS cable ties for ~.33/ea
http://electricalwireties.com

benn
Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts and 
typos. 

> On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic zip 
> ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last time I 
> looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.
> 
> Thanks,
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>> Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable 
>> tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl 
>> jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately 
>> $.59 eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not 
>> have any sharp edges and are easy to install
>> Hope that helps
>> 
>> 
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>> 541-218-0201 m
>> 541-592-3958 o
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy  wrote:
>>> William, Billfrom another Bill,
>>>  
>>> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still 
>>> trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and 
>>> my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or 
>>> chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is 
>>> rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have 
>>> been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new 
>>> even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the 
>>> wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management 
>>> is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, 
>>> thus not compromising the insulation. 
>>>  
>>> I know many on this list are way past this point in their 
>>> installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K 
>>> folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.  
>>> Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help 
>>> those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living 
>>> in the boonies. 
>>>  
>>> Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded 
>>> edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such 
>>> things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3 
>>> each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is 
>>> that an issue?  Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field 
>>> for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to 
>>> the wire ties?
>>> Thanks for your help and patience,
>>>  
>>> Bill
>>>  
>>> Feather River Solar Electric
>>> 4291 Nelson St.
>>> Taylorsville, CA  95983
>>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>>> "solar powered since 1982"
>>>  
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Bill Loesch" 
>>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>>> 
>>> > 
>>> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as 
>>> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
>>> > 
>>> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire 
>>> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
>>> > 
>>> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year 
>>> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
>>> > 
>>> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
>>> > 
>>> > Bill Loesch
>>> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
>>> > 
>>> >> Bill:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly 
>>> >> installed.&

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

We buy from Waytek Wire, about $0.33 each for stainless. 

http://tinyurl.com/k32wwbx

Larry Crutcher
(928) 342-9103
www.starlightsolar.com
la...@starlightsolar.com

Retail Store & Warehouse
2998 Shari Ave.
Yuma, Az 85365

USPS Postal Mail Only
11881 S Fortuna Road, #210
Yuma, AZ 85367







On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic zip 
ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last time I looked 
at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.

Thanks,
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
> Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable tiesThey 
> are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl jacketWe have 
> been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately $.59 eachfor the 
> 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not have any sharp edges and 
> are easy to install
> Hope that helps
> 
> 
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy  wrote:
> William, Billfrom another Bill,
>  
> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still 
> trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and 
> my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or 
> chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is 
> rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have 
> been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even 
> when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation 
> can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the 
> wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not 
> compromising the insulation. 
>  
> I know many on this list are way past this point in their 
> installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K 
> folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.  
> Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help those 
> of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living in the 
> boonies. 
>  
> Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded edges?, 
> plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such things 
> (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3 each, but 
> none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is that an issue?  
> Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field for 10-20 years, 
> behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to the wire ties?
> Thanks for your help and patience,
>  
> Bill
>  
> Feather River Solar Electric
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA  95983
> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
> "solar powered since 1982"
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bill Loesch" 
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
> 
> > 
> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as 
> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
> > 
> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire 
> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
> > 
> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year 
> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
> > 
> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
> > 
> > Bill Loesch
> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
> > 
> >> Bill:
> >>
> >>
> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly 
> >> installed."  If
> >> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are 
> >> protected
> >> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
> >> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected 
> >> after
> >> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will 
> >> fail well
> >> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties 
> >> fail,
> >> your PV leads are h

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Jason Szumlanski]

I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again recommend
the WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk lines,
and find them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are cost
effective.

That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and we are
far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:

> Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
> productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
> http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp
>
> Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
> info..
> Cheers,
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>>
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
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List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

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List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp

Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
info..
Cheers,

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Ray Walters]

Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic 
zip ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last 
time I looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.


Thanks,

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable 
tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant 
vinyl jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for 
approximately $.59 eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them 
alotthey do not have any sharp edges and are easy to install

Hope that helps


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com>
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy <mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:


William, Billfrom another Bill,
Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!)
that's still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4
connector into conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for
fear of the sharp edges cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open
for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is rated for that type of
service and I have some off-grid systems that have been in the sun
for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even when
flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to
"wire management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof,
secured to the racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
I know many on this list are way past this point in their
installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of
just 20K folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of
systemsyet. Again, I express my humble appreciation of
experienced wrenches to help those of us working to install the
tightest systems possible despite living in the boonies.
Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties
(rounded edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto
place for such things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that
range from $1.50 to $3 each, but none that I can see that address
the sharp edge issue...or is that an issue?  Have people been
using regular SS wire ties in the field for 10-20 years, behind a
roof mounted array without any issues related to the wire ties?
Thanks for your help and patience,
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530.284.7849  / 6544 fax
"solar powered since 1982"
- Original Message -
From: "Bill Loesch" mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net>>
To: "RE-wrenches" mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

>
> Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe
themselves as
> professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
>
> Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on
wire
> management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
>
> Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
> equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
>
> Sincere thanks from one convert,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
>
>> Bill:
>>
>>
>> I respectfully disagree with your logic: Define "perfectly
>> installed."  If
>> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
>> protected
>> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe
lifetime of
>> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay
protected
>> after
>> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will
>> fail well
>> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the
ties
>> fail,
>> your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail,
>> rodents
>> can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we
should be
>> using
>> it.
>>
>>
>> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I
>> don't
>> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring
practices.  

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[August Goers]

Hi All –



I’m not sure whether Hellermann Tyton is related to Heyco, but I know of
the SunBundler product through Heyco:



http://www.heyco.com/Alternative_Energy_Products/pdf/1-15-new.pdf



-August



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa
*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:42 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable
tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl
jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately
$.59 eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not
have any sharp edges and are easy to install

Hope that helps




Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy  wrote:

William, Billfrom another Bill,



Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and
my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is
rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have
been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new
even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
racking, thus not compromising the insulation.



I know many on this list are way past this point in their
installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K
folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.
Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help
those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living
in the boonies.



Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded
edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such
things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3
each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is
that an issue?  Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field
for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to
the wire ties?

Thanks for your help and patience,



Bill



Feather River Solar Electric
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530.284.7849 / 6544 fax

"solar powered since 1982"



- Original Message -

From: "Bill Loesch" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 

Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods



>
> Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as
> professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
>
> Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire
> management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
>
> Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
> equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
>
> Sincere thanks from one convert,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
>
>> Bill:
>>
>>
>> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly
>> installed."  If
>> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
>> protected
>> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
>> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected
>> after
>> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will
>> fail well
>> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties
>> fail,
>> your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail,
>> rodents
>> can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be
>> using
>> it.
>>
>>
>> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I
>> don't
>> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I
>> think
>> wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any
>> other
>> high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
>> conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
>> plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
>> inspector.
>>
>>
>> I suspect we've gotten to wher

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Bill.we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable
tiesThey are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl
jacketWe have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately
$.59 eachfor the 12" length tiesWe like them alotthey do not
have any sharp edges and are easy to install
Hope that helps


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy  wrote:

>  William, Billfrom another Bill,
>
> Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's
> still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into
> conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges
> cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the
> roof is rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems
> that have been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks
> nearly new even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
> the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
> management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
> racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
>
> I know many on this list are way past this point in their
> installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K
> folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.
> Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help
> those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living
> in the boonies.
>
> Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded
> edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such
> things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3
> each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is
> that an issue?  Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field
> for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to
> the wire ties?
> Thanks for your help and patience,
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA  95983
> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
> "solar powered since 1982"
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bill Loesch" 
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>
> >
> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as
> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
> >
> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire
> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
> >
> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
> >
> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
> >
> > Bill Loesch
> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Bill:
> >>
> >>
> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly
> >> installed."  If
> >> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
> >> protected
> >> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
> >> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected
> >> after
> >> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will
> >> fail well
> >> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties
> >> fail,
> >> your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail,
> >> rodents
> >> can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be
> >> using
> >> it.
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I
> >> don't
> >> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I
> >> think
> >> wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any
> >> other
> >> high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
> >> conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
> >> plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
> >> inspector.
> >>
> >>
> >> I suspect we've gotten to where we

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[frenergy]

William, Billfrom another Bill,

Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's still 
trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into conduit and my 
hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges cutting or 
chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is rated 
for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems that have been in the 
sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even when flexing 
it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems the wire/insulation can take it, thus 
it seems like the key to "wire management is to keep the wire from moving and 
off the roof, secured to the racking, thus not compromising the insulation. 

I know many on this list are way past this point in their installation 
skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K folks, I haven't 
had the opportunity to install 100's of systemsyet.  Again, I express my 
humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help those of us working to 
install the tightest systems possible despite living in the boonies.  

Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded edges?, 
plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such things 
(Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3 each, but 
none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is that an issue?  
Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field for 10-20 years, 
behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to the wire ties?
Thanks for your help and patience,

Bill 

Feather River Solar Electric
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
"solar powered since 1982"

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Loesch" 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods


> 
> Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as 
> professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
> 
> Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire 
> management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
> 
> Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year 
> equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
> 
> Sincere thanks from one convert,
> 
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
> 
>> Bill:
>>
>>
>> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly 
>> installed."  If
>> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are 
>> protected
>> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
>> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected 
>> after
>> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will 
>> fail well
>> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties 
>> fail,
>> your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail, 
>> rodents
>> can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be 
>> using
>> it.
>>
>>
>> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I 
>> don't
>> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I 
>> think
>> wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any 
>> other
>> high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
>> conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
>> plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
>> inspector.
>>
>>
>> I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection 
>> standards for
>> two reasons:
>>
>> 1.In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was 
>> treated
>> as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of 
>> conventional low
>> voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.
>>
>> 2.It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are 
>> not
>> stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years. 
>> Products
>> were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had to work 
>> with
>> the equipment available.
>>
>>
>> Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have 
>> seen
>> PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get damaged 
>> under
>> BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV wire is more
>> important than protecting c

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Bill Loesch]

Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as 
professional (designer, installer, etc.)),


Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire 
management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.


Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year 
equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.


Sincere thanks from one convert,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar



On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:


Bill:


I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly 
installed."  If
your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are 
protected

from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected 
after
the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will 
fail well
before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties 
fail,
your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail, 
rodents
can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be 
using

it.


I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I 
don't
think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I 
think
wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any 
other

high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
inspector.


I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection 
standards for

two reasons:

1.In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was 
treated
as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of 
conventional low

voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.

2.It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are 
not
stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years. 
Products
were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had to work 
with

the equipment available.


Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have 
seen
PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get damaged 
under

BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV wire is more
important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring because PV 
circuits

are more prone to create and sustain arcing.


Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much expense 
to PV
installations.  Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably, injuries 
and
deaths.  One news story about an obscure, rarely used product is 
already
causing many of us headaches.  Statistically, it is inevitable that 
more

accidents will happen. I don't want that on my conscience.


I would suggest that we need to expand the discussion beyond fire 
hazards.
I also worry about electrocution hazards in high voltage PV circuits. 
Good

wire protection is essential in preventing contact with high voltages.


Unprotected PV wiring is an irresponsible practice.  I am fighting an 
uphill
battle to develops methods to protect PV wiring because the industry 
is not
helping at all.  The trend has been to make it harder to protect 
wiring.

This trend will result in accidents.  I think we should do better.


Sincerely,


William Miller



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill 
Brooks

Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:38 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423


William and David,


This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The longer 
we
wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the more we 
will
have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings 
forward.
Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a problem-sure, 
just

like anything improperly installed.


At the end of the day, you can a have a perfectly installed system, 
but if

it does not have arc fault detection and high resolution ground fault
detection, it can still catch on fire. You have no control over 
product
failures other than buying from large companies that can actually 
insure

their products in a failure.


Fires are not that common, but it didn't take much to get all the 
viewers of

this news report up in arms did it?


Bill.




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