Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[William Miller]

Jason:



That is an excellent observation.  I instinctively surmised what was
intended, but I missed that the drawing violates schematic norms in a big
way.  (Or does the drawing indicate that the Powerwall2 is so awesome you
can sell generator power to the grid with the Powerwall2 not even
connected?)



William



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 1:59 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?



Whoever drew that up made it look like the generator is the common pole. I
know what they were getting at, but it's a pretty poor way of depicting it.







On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM la...@starlightsolar.com <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator
input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers  wrote:

Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share
the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it
hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about
that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running.
It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
sizing / production levels.

One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should
be installed in the heated envelope of the home.

August


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO
it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
way.

Jason Szumlanski





On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:
Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
this was the best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power
without barfing? What is the lead time on these?

Many Thank

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[Ray]

That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:


Jay,

The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my 
off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input 
terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm not a fan of this strategy. What happens when the coil fails? It's not
a failsafe solution IMO.

Jason Szumlanski




On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 10:52 AM 
wrote:

> Larry,
>
> Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator
> circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed.
>
> Drake
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote:
>
>
>
> Larry:
>
>
>
> If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in
> a fool proof manner then you may have a solution.  If the system fails I
> see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* la...@starlightsolar.com [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator
> charging
>
>
>
> Hi William,
>
> Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off
> grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is
> clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall
> in any way." This is true.
>
>
>
> Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the
> micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to
> the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the
> generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of
> course, the system *must* be monitored. If the power wall calls for
> cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be
> disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an
> internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to
> think outside the box.
>
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Larry:
>
> I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied
> system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the
> generator, which may damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should
> therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it
> ineligible to be charged from the generator.
>
> William
>
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of la...@starlightsolar.com
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?
>
> Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is
> a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems
> simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside
> the box but I'm not familiar with Powerwall.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies,
> the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.
>
> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.
>
> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
> device, essentially a transfer switch with

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Whoever drew that up made it look like the generator is the common pole. I
know what they were getting at, but it's a pretty poor way of depicting it.



On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM la...@starlightsolar.com <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator
> input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers  wrote:
>
> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share
> the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it
> hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about
> that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running.
> It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
> sizing / production levels.
>
> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
> particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should
> be installed in the heated envelope of the home.
>
> August
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.
>
> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO
> it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.
>
> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.
>
> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
> way.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
> wrote:
> Greetings, Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
> this was the best solution.
>
> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power
> without barfing? What is the lead time on these?
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Hilton
>
> --
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Sorry - Automatic Generator Start.

What I'm wondering now is how does it manage PV inverter output and
generator power operating simultaneously? I think they are saying the
generator will not automatically start if there is PV inverter input output
present. If that is the case, what happens when the batteries are at 10%,
the load is very high, and there is a trickle of PV? That's a scenario
where you WANT the generator to start, but I don't see how they can do it
unless there is a mechanism to disconnect the PV. I guess in theory in this
scenario the PV inverter output and generator output would both be drawn by
the batteries making it a one way flow of energy, but it doesn't seem like
a failsafe solution. I really wish they would provide us Wrenches with
enough information to do our jobs.




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:58 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Jason - I'm not familiar with the acronym AGS, but it will do solar
> curtailment via frequency shifting. The tech doc says that the generator
> will turn on once SOC reaches a lower threshold and remain on to power
> loads and charge the Powerwall(s). So, it is designed for automatic
> generator operation. I haven't personally installed an off grid Powerwall
> system although we do have one in the final permitting stage.
>
> Yea, the ESS market in general is really heating up with lots of cool
> products hitting the market. The Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) such
> as the Tesla Gateway, Enphase Empower smart switch, and SolarEdge Backup
> Interface is a particular game changer. For anyone who hasn't read this
> article by Bill Brooks, I highly recommend it:
>
>
> https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/features/renewables/connection-of-normal-and-emergency-power-sources-for-homes/
> 
>
> August
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi August,
>>
>> To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only?
>> If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want
>> a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or
>> portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air
>> conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to
>> cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying
>> loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a
>> lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their
>> home already.
>>
>> Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have
>> the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this
>> functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator
>> lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these
>> lines.
>>
>> Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries."
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers  wrote:
>>
>>> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
>>> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the
>>> document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits
>>> a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that
>>> caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It
>>> seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
>>> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
>>> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
>>> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
>>> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
>>> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
>>> sizing / production levels.
>>>
>>> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work
>>> well particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be
>>> installed in the heated envelope of the home.
>>>
>>> August
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
 from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
 whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
 couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
 switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
 generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
 battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
 downside I 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[Matt Partymiller]

Jay,

The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my off grid 
Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the 
other side into a grid-connected outlet.  Some version of this is part of their 
off grid process.

We’ve been running a reasonable portion of our offices off grid with a 
Powerwall since the winter.  Other than a microwave incompatibility issue, it 
seems pretty reliable and has a more friendly user-interface than most 
manufacturers.  I cannot speak to generator backup with the Powerwall as I have 
not personally been in this situation (in an emergency we could manually 
transfer back to grid).  I do know they now have a few approved generators for 
off grid.  I just haven’t done that.

Matt


From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Jay
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:53 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

Connecting a generator output to the inverter output has the potential to 
damage the generator control board.

Another way to go is to put a diode on the output of the generator and parallel 
it into the DC input to the GT inverter. Preferably you’d want a larger 
generator than the GT inverter. However if it’s smaller the GT inverter should 
reduce its output if the generator output sags too much. But they might not 
play that well together.

Given all that I’ve heard here, lots of reasons the PW isn’t ready for offgrid.
With the specific situation of how do you black start the PW if it’s only ac 
coupled?  this problem is common with all ac coupled systems, but usually you 
can get a generator/battery charger or dc couple some PV to jump start the 
system. With the PW, that doesn’t sound possible without surgery, and probably 
warranty issues.

Jay

Peltz power.










On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:52 AM, 
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>
 wrote:


Larry,

Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator circuit. 
Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed.

Drake
---




On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote:


Larry:



If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a 
fool proof manner then you may have a solution.  If the system fails I see a 
damaged generator but not a life-safety issue.



William





From: la...@starlightsolar.com<mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com> 
[mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com<mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM
To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging



Hi William,

Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid 
and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in 
that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way." 
This is true.



Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the 
micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the 
Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the 
generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of 
course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or 
disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it 
indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it 
would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Larry:

I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied system 
can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may 
damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should therefore be connected 
upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the 
generator.

William



From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]
 On Behalf Of la...@starlightsolar.com<mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV 
solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC 
switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I'm 
not familiar with Powerwall.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> 
wrote:

The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. 
You can't charge the battery w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[Jay]

Connecting a generator output to the inverter output has the potential to 
damage the generator control board. 

Another way to go is to put a diode on the output of the generator and parallel 
it into the DC input to the GT inverter. Preferably you’d want a larger 
generator than the GT inverter. However if it’s smaller the GT inverter should 
reduce its output if the generator output sags too much. But they might not 
play that well together. 

Given all that I’ve heard here, lots of reasons the PW isn’t ready for offgrid. 
 
With the specific situation of how do you black start the PW if it’s only ac 
coupled?  this problem is common with all ac coupled systems, but usually you 
can get a generator/battery charger or dc couple some PV to jump start the 
system. With the PW, that doesn’t sound possible without surgery, and probably 
warranty issues. 

Jay

Peltz power. 









> On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:52 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> 
> 
> Larry,
> 
> Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator 
> circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed.
> 
> Drake
> 
> ---
>  
> 
> 
>> On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>> Larry:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a 
>> fool proof manner then you may have a solution.  If the system fails I see a 
>> damaged generator but not a life-safety issue.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> William
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: la...@starlightsolar.com [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM
>> To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator 
>> charging
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi William,
>> 
>> Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off 
>> grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is 
>> clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall 
>> in any way." This is true.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the 
>> micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to 
>> the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the 
>> generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of 
>> course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or 
>> disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it 
>> indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then 
>> it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box.
>> 
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> Larry:
>>  
>> I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied 
>> system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, 
>> which may damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should therefore be 
>> connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be 
>> charged from the generator.
>>  
>> William
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
>> Behalf Of la...@starlightsolar.com
>> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?
>>  
>> Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a 
>> PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple 
>> AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box 
>> but I'm not familiar with Powerwall.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>>  wrote:
>>  
>> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
>> what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators 
>> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC 
>> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch 
>> on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator 
>> starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery 
>> because it becomes isolated via the transfe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[drake . chamberlin]

Larry, 


Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator
circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed. 


Drake

---

On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote:





Larry: 

If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a fool proof manner then you may have a solution.  If the system fails I see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. 

William 

From: la...@starlightsolar.com [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM

To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging 


Hi William,

Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons 
question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not 
allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way." This is true.

Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the 
micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the 
Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the 
generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of 
course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or 
disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it 
indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it 
would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Larry:

I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied system 
can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may 
damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should therefore be connected 
upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the 
generator.

William

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of la...@starlightsolar.com
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV 
solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC 
switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I'm 
not familiar with Powerwall.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:

The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. 
You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a 
generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load 
side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The 
generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes 
isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there 
would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see 
a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and 
that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of 
like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it 
can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on 
occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know 
what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would 
"jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few 
system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. 


I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery 
the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to 
disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase 
would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not 
allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.

Jason Szumlanski

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III  wrote:

Greetings, Wrenches,
I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla 
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it 
appears to be AC coupled only. There 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[August Goers]

Hi Jason - I'm not familiar with the acronym AGS, but it will do solar
curtailment via frequency shifting. The tech doc says that the generator
will turn on once SOC reaches a lower threshold and remain on to power
loads and charge the Powerwall(s). So, it is designed for automatic
generator operation. I haven't personally installed an off grid Powerwall
system although we do have one in the final permitting stage.

Yea, the ESS market in general is really heating up with lots of cool
products hitting the market. The Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) such
as the Tesla Gateway, Enphase Empower smart switch, and SolarEdge Backup
Interface is a particular game changer. For anyone who hasn't read this
article by Bill Brooks, I highly recommend it:

https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/features/renewables/connection-of-normal-and-emergency-power-sources-for-homes/

August


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Hi August,
>
> To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only?
> If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want
> a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or
> portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air
> conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to
> cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying
> loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a
> lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their
> home already.
>
> Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have
> the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this
> functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator
> lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these
> lines.
>
> Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries."
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers  wrote:
>
>> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
>> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the
>> document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits
>> a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that
>> caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It
>> seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
>> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
>> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
>> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
>> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
>> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
>> sizing / production levels.
>>
>> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
>> particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be
>> installed in the heated envelope of the home.
>>
>> August
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
>>> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
>>> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
>>> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
>>> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
>>> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
>>> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
>>> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
>>> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.
>>>
>>> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
>>> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
>>> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
>>> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
>>> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
>>> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
>>> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
>>> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
>>> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
>>> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.
>>>
>>> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
>>> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
>>> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
>>> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[la...@starlightsolar.com]

This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator input in 
place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers  wrote:

Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of this 
year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the document, but the 
Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits a certain SOC 
threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that caveat of not 
allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It seems like there are 
plenty of times where there is low solar production and you want to fire up the 
generator to top off the batteries. They also have a low state of charge mode 
when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall will turn on during the day for short 
periods of time just to test to see if the PV system will couple up to charge 
the battery. This AC-coupling method of reviving the battery may or not work 
depending on loads and PV sizing / production levels.

One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well 
particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be installed in 
the heated envelope of the home. 

August


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:
The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. 
You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a 
generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load 
side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The 
generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes 
isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there 
would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see 
a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries 
out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd 
call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point 
in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in 
an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to 
see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't 
know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not 
sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on 
this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the 
Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator 
inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The 
concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially 
a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC 
point of coupling for everything to tie in together. 

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery 
the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to 
disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase 
would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not 
allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.

Jason Szumlanski





On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III  wrote:
Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla 
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it 
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but 
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and 
I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was 
the best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? 
Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the 
lead time on these?

Many Thanks,

Hilton

-- 
Hilton Dier III
Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design

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List-Archive: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Hi August,

To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only?
If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want
a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or
portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air
conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to
cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying
loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a
lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their
home already.

Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have
the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this
functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator
lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these
lines.

Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries."

Jason Szumlanski




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the
> document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits
> a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that
> caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It
> seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
> sizing / production levels.
>
> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
> particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be
> installed in the heated envelope of the home.
>
> August
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
>> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
>> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
>> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
>> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
>> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
>> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
>> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
>> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.
>>
>> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
>> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
>> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
>> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
>> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
>> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
>> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
>> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
>> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
>> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.
>>
>> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
>> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
>> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
>> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
>> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.
>>
>> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
>> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
>> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
>> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
>> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
>> way.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings, Wrenches,
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
>>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
>>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
>>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
>>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
>>> this was the best solution.
>>>
>>> Does anybody have experience 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[William Miller]

Larry:



If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in
a fool proof manner then you may have a solution.  If the system fails I
see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue.



William





*From:* la...@starlightsolar.com [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com]
*Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM
*To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator
charging



Hi William,

Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off
grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is
clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall
in any way.” This is true.



Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the
micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to
the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the
generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of
course, the system *must* be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback
or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected,
if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect,
then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller 
wrote:

Larry:

I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied
system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the
generator, which may damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should
therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it
ineligible to be charged from the generator.

William



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of la...@starlightsolar.com
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is
a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems
simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside
the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies,
the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
way.

Jason Szumlanski


On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:

Greetings, Wrenches,
I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
this was the b

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[August Goers]

Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the
document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits
a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that
caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It
seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
sizing / production levels.

One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be
installed in the heated envelope of the home.

August


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration
> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.
>
> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.
>
> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.
>
> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
> way.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings, Wrenches,
>>
>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
>> this was the best solution.
>>
>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
>> What is the lead time on these?
>>
>> Many Thanks,
>>
>> Hilton
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

A screenshot may help make this easier. The back-up gateway is the key
here. I would look on youtube for some more recent schemes to get this to
work for you  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

 

Links:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

[la...@starlightsolar.com]

Hi William,

Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid 
and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in 
that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.” 
This is true.

Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the 
micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the 
Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the 
generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of 
course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or 
disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it 
indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it 
would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Larry:
 
I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied system 
can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may 
damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should therefore be connected 
upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the 
generator.
 
William
 
 
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of la...@starlightsolar.com
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?
 
Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV 
solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC 
switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m 
not familiar with Powerwall.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

 
 
On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:
 
The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. 
You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a 
generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load 
side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The 
generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes 
isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there 
would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see 
a way around that.
 
I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries 
out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd 
call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point 
in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in 
an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to 
see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't 
know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not 
sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on 
this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the 
Interwebs.
 
It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator 
inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The 
concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially 
a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC 
point of coupling for everything to tie in together. 
 
I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery 
the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to 
disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase 
would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not 
allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.
 
Jason Szumlanski
 
 
On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III  wrote:
> Greetings, Wrenches,
> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla 
> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it 
> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but 
> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, 
> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, 
> this was the best solution.
> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV 
> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? 
> What is the lead time on these?
> Many Thanks,
> Hilton
> -- 
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[William Miller]

Larry:



I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate:  If any grid-tied
system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the
generator, which may damage said generator.  The grid-tied system should
therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it
ineligible to be charged from the generator.



William







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *la...@starlightsolar.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?



Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is
a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems
simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside
the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:



The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.



I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.



It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.



I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
way.



Jason Szumlanski





On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:

Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
this was the best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
What is the lead time on these?

Many Thanks,

Hilton

-- 

Hilton Dier III

Missisquoi River Hydro

Renewable Energy Design
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[la...@starlightsolar.com]

Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV 
solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC 
switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m 
not familiar with Powerwall.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:

The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from 
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. 
You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a 
generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load 
side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The 
generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes 
isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there 
would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see 
a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries 
out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd 
call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point 
in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in 
an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to 
see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't 
know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not 
sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on 
this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the 
Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator 
inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The 
concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially 
a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC 
point of coupling for everything to tie in together. 

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery 
the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to 
disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase 
would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not 
allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.

Jason Szumlanski


On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III mailto:hiltond...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla 
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it 
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but 
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and 
I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was 
the best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? 
Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the 
lead time on these?

Many Thanks,

Hilton

-- 
Hilton Dier III
Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jason Szumlanski]

The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it
can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
way.

Jason Szumlanski





On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:

> Greetings, Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
> this was the best solution.
>
> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
> What is the lead time on these?
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Hilton
>
> --
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

The original Powerwall 1 was DC coupled and there are quite few up here
in the mountains running fine. They are much better in my opinion than the
400vdc LG. When LG failed with the 48v battery they made the 400v with the
electronics limiting the problem of surge current. That current pulled from
an xw load test is what killed the 48v model, over a year of testing. 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

   

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Jay, 

We bypassed it all. It is rated at 5kw and 7kw surge for 30
seconds. If you stack them you increase both of these numbers. When I
helped my client do this, it was to get a back-up to the back-up offgrid.
So, there really was not the issue with someone losing their refrigeration
or water pumps. We know how to do offgrid BTW. Most of my bad mistakes
offgrid were over 40 years ago. 

It was a good project for me and I
learned alot. There is the old rumor that they will do the Powerwall 3 and
it will have some DC coupling. I doubt it. You also need their 1.8k$
gateway to make a powerwall system.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go
where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:45:11
-0700, Jay  wrote:  Does any know anything about the inverter in the power
wall? I never hear anyone mention anything about it.Efficiency, surge,
tare loss, repairability,  AC charging capability, generator support, AGS,
etc. All the normal inverter questions.Thanks   Jay   Peltz power.  

On Jul 19, 2020, at 1:16 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:

I second what Ray
says Jerry  
  On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray  wrote:   

There are so
many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that are actually
designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using a more
unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled is a 2nd
huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system completely
inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any of several
reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means that all
charging of the system ceases as well.  

For Off grid, reliability is
absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly related to that reliability.
They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and communications in an outage.
I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off grid, and not taking it seriously.
Why in the world would someone even consider using a product that its own
manufacturer says should not be used off grid? 
Ray Walters
Remote
Solar
303 505-8760
 On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:   Hilton,
Wrenches As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid
applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that
there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and
daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start
the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if
it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty.  Jerry
NABCEP PV inspector   
  On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:   

Greetings, Wrenches, 

I have an off-grid client who has been
reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the
data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There
was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I
try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a
Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. 

Does
anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system?
Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is
the lead time on these?

Many Thanks, 

Hilton 
-- 
Hilton Dier
III
Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design

 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jay]

Does any know anything about the inverter in the power wall? I never hear 
anyone mention anything about it. 

Efficiency, surge, tare loss, repairability, 
AC charging capability, generator support, AGS,  etc. All the normal inverter 
questions. 

Thanks

Jay

Peltz power. 

> On Jul 19, 2020, at 1:16 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> 
> I second what Ray says
> Jerry
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray  wrote:
>> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that 
>> are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using 
>> a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   AC coupled is 
>> a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system completely 
>> inoperable.  Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any of several 
>> reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means that all 
>> charging of the system ceases as well.  
>> 
>> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly 
>> related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and 
>> communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in off grid, 
>> and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone even consider 
>> using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used off grid?
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>> Hilton, Wrenches
>>> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid 
>>> applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that 
>>> there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and 
>>> daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start 
>>> the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if 
>>> it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. 
>>> Jerry 
>>> NABCEP PV inspector 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III  
>>> wrote:
 Greetings, Wrenches,
 
 I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla 
 Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and 
 it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, 
 but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about 
 technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer 
 if, in fact, this was the best solution.
 
 Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV 
 system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without 
 barfing? What is the lead time on these?
 
 Many Thanks,
 
 Hilton
 
 -- 
 Hilton Dier III
 Missisquoi River Hydro
 Renewable Energy Design
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Lou Russo]

I third what Ray says.

It is also my understanding that Tesla does not allow their installers to
be "subs".

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 10:16 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> I second what Ray says
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray  wrote:
>
>> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that
>> are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using
>> a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   AC coupled
>> is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system
>> completely inoperable.  Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any
>> of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means
>> that all charging of the system ceases as well.
>>
>> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly
>> related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and
>> communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in off
>> grid, and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone even
>> consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used
>> off grid?
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>
>> Hilton, Wrenches
>> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid
>> applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that
>> there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and
>> daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start
>> the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if
>> it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty.
>> Jerry
>> NABCEP PV inspector
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings, Wrenches,
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
>>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
>>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
>>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
>>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
>>> this was the best solution.
>>>
>>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
>>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
>>> What is the lead time on these?
>>>
>>> Many Thanks,
>>>
>>> Hilton
>>>
>>> --
>>> Hilton Dier III
>>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>>> Renewable Energy Design
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jerry Shafer]

I second what Ray says
Jerry

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray  wrote:

> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that
> are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using
> a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   AC coupled
> is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system
> completely inoperable.  Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any
> of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means
> that all charging of the system ceases as well.
>
> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly
> related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and
> communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in off
> grid, and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone even
> consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used
> off grid?
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>
> Hilton, Wrenches
> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid
> applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that
> there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and
> daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start
> the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if
> it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty.
> Jerry
> NABCEP PV inspector
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings, Wrenches,
>>
>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
>> this was the best solution.
>>
>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
>> What is the lead time on these?
>>
>> Many Thanks,
>>
>> Hilton
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jerry Shafer]

I second what Ray says
Jerry

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray  wrote:

> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that
> are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using
> a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   AC coupled
> is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system
> completely inoperable.  Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any
> of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means
> that all charging of the system ceases as well.
>
> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly
> related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and
> communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in off
> grid, and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone even
> consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used
> off grid?
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>
> Hilton, Wrenches
> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid
> applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that
> there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and
> daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start
> the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if
> it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty.
> Jerry
> NABCEP PV inspector
>
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings, Wrenches,
>>
>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
>> this was the best solution.
>>
>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
>> What is the lead time on these?
>>
>> Many Thanks,
>>
>> Hilton
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Ray]

There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, 
that are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage 
to using a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   
AC coupled is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended 
system completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts 
off for any of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., 
it also means that all charging of the system ceases as well.


For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly 
related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, 
and communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in 
off grid, and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone 
even consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not 
be used off grid?


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Hilton, Wrenches
As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid 
applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without 
that there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid 
world and daily cycling would work well over time either. How would 
you jump start the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a 
genny might work if it connects and stays connected this might also 
affect the warranty.

Jerry
NABCEP PV inspector

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote:


Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the
Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and
manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk
of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I
try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to
subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the
best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off
grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power
without barfing? What is the lead time on these?

Many Thanks,

Hilton

-- 
Hilton Dier III

Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Jerry Shafer]

Hilton, Wrenches
As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid
applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that
there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and
daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start
the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if
it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty.
Jerry
NABCEP PV inspector

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:

> Greetings, Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
> this was the best solution.
>
> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing?
> What is the lead time on these?
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Hilton
>
> --
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

There are people who are doing it on youtube but I have not looked at it
seriously because it has NMC cells. It is a very nice capacity at 13.5 kwh,
and good for the money. 

I did help a client get a model 2 to work
offgrid. After we were done it worked great with a Schneider system and
still does 2 years later. There is no warranty after what we did. I hope
some of the folks on here will give a more recent response of a "stock"
powerwall with an offgrid installation. A genset and DC solar in the mix. 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 11:36:24 -0400, Hilton Dier III 
wrote:

Greetings, Wrenches, 

I have an off-grid client who has been
reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the
data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There
was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I
try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a
Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. 

Does
anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system?
Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is
the lead time on these?

Many Thanks, 

Hilton 
-- 
Hilton Dier
III
Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design

 

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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