Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Jason Szumlanski]

There is one more thing to consider that just hit me while looking at
a Wago. I don't think the insulation of a #10 PV wire is going to fit into
the 221-6XX connector. I need to check on that.




On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 4:06 PM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> Kudos to Dan Fink. Nice job. Just another reason to send a donation to
> Michael Welch.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:29 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said
>> (regarding the 221-4XX series):
>>
>> WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC
>> or DC Just Not to exceed 20A
>>
>> 600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs
>>
>> No Special designation is required.
>>
>> On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink  wrote:
>>
>>> Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today
>>> regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing
>>> products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire
>>> Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is
>>> specifically listed for *only *AC or DC.
>>>
>>> They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that
>>> is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels
>>> specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC?
>>> *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC?
>>> Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for
>>> both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't
>>> need to be.*
>>>
>>> Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load
>>> must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But
>>> wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under
>>> UL486C.
>>>
>>> I hope this clears up any confusion.
>>>
>>> Best regards;
>>>
>>> Dan Fink
>>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>>> NABCEP PV Associate
>>> d anbo...@gmail.com
>>> 970-672-4342
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
 question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
 up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
 listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
 to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?

 I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very
 effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to
 600 volts.

 While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding
 and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to
 #10 AWG inside junction boxes.

 Jason Szumlanski
 Florida Solar Design Group


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Chris Schaefer]

Kudos to Dan Fink. Nice job. Just another reason to send a donation to
Michael Welch.

Christopher

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:29 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said (regarding
> the 221-4XX series):
>
> WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC
> or DC Just Not to exceed 20A
>
> 600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs
>
> No Special designation is required.
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink  wrote:
>
>> Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today
>> regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing
>> products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire
>> Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is
>> specifically listed for *only *AC or DC.
>>
>> They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that
>> is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels
>> specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC?
>> *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC?
>> Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for
>> both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need
>> to be.*
>>
>> Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load
>> must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But
>> wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under
>> UL486C.
>>
>> I hope this clears up any confusion.
>>
>> Best regards;
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>> NABCEP PV Associate
>> d anbo...@gmail.com
>> 970-672-4342
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
>>> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
>>> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
>>> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
>>> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?
>>>
>>> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
>>> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.
>>>
>>> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
>>> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
>>> AWG inside junction boxes.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


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"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Jason Szumlanski]

I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said (regarding
the 221-4XX series):

WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC or
DC Just Not to exceed 20A

600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs

No Special designation is required.

On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink  wrote:

> Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today
> regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing
> products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire
> Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is
> specifically listed for *only *AC or DC.
>
> They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that
> is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels
> specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? *Yes,*
> we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? Can we use
> them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for both AC and
> DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need to be.*
>
> Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load
> must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But
> wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under
> UL486C.
>
> I hope this clears up any confusion.
>
> Best regards;
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
>> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
>> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
>> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
>> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?
>>
>> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
>> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.
>>
>> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
>> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
>> AWG inside junction boxes.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Ray]

Thanks Dan, that has also been my understanding of all listed 
equipment.  Certain switches etc will say on them "AC only", or give 
different DC ratings.  Otherwise the voltage listing is AC/DC.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/10/21 2:55 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today 
regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing 
products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire 
Connectors) applies to */both/* AC and DC voltages unless the product 
is specifically listed for /*only */AC or DC.


They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire 
that is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels 
specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? 
*Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? 
Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time 
for both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It 
doesn't need to be.*


Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load 
must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. 
But wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting 
device under UL486C.


I hope this clears up any confusion.

Best regards;

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com 


970-672-4342


On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski 
> wrote:


In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There
was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't
think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the
connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine
whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very
effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits
up to 600 volts.

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for
grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices
for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Dan Fink]

Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today
regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing
products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire
Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is
specifically listed for *only *AC or DC.

They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that is
being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels specifically
UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? *Yes,* we use it all
the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? Can we use them for both
AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for both AC and DC. Is it
specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need to be.*

Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load must
be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But wire
splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under UL486C.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Best regards;

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342


On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?
>
> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.
>
> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
> AWG inside junction boxes.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Glenn Burt]

So like I said, although logic may dictate that it will operate at a high 
voltage DC level, having not been tested explicitly for that, it does not have 
UL listing – we will not use them on the DC side of our installations for that 
reason.

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dan 
Fink
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 7:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use 
Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified 
for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is 
easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test 
platforms are relatively rare. 

 

So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to 
RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need 
to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would 
mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.

 

How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!

 

Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com> anbo...@gmail.com 
<mailto:anbo...@gmail.com> 

970-672-4342


 

 

 

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > 
wrote:

In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a 
question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up 
with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to 
the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC 
circuits. Does anyone know?

 

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now 
I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. 

 

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and 
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG 
inside junction boxes. 

 

Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Glenn Burt]

I made the comment that they were not listed for use on DC circuits after I had 
reviewed the UL testing criteria, and the specifications from the manufacturer 
– It was not a lighthearted comment…

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 5:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a 
question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up 
with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to 
the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC 
circuits. Does anyone know?

 

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now 
I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. 

 

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and 
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG 
inside junction boxes. 

 

Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Glenn Burt]

This technology has been in use for a dozen years in European equipment and has 
been used in many inverters that we install. It creates a gas-tight connection 
and is fully vetted through many manufacturers. I don’t think we need to be 
concerned about its ability to create a reliable connection when properly used 
– just as screw terminals and compression connections require proper 
preparation and installation, so do these.

The metallurgy used in the springs is not that of a simple malleable material, 
but is specifically formulated to retain its tension throughout its lifetime. 
Of course heat will affect any connection, however it is not more of a concern 
with this type of connector than any other one in my opinion and experience. 
And they are not really like those terminals in the back of a duplex outlet, 
except in functionality…

We can’t fight progress and technology continues to move ahead. These terminals 
have been reliable and less expensive, as well as less prone to user error that 
most other options available currently. IEC testing and millions of deployed 
parts show a history of reliability.

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
William Miller
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 8:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

Friends:

 

Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector.  
It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle.  This 
connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it 
gets hot.  We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more 
resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc.  

 

We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that 
the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between 
one conductor and the other.  

 

I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in 
direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm 
the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is also necessary to have control 
over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed 
torque specs.

 

Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter.  This 
unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could get a meter probe into 
the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to take the cover off the electronics 
sections and measure voltage at the circuit board.  I much prefer a screw 
terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it.

 

William Miller

 

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 

CA Lic. 773985

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> ] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use 
Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified 
for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is 
easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test 
platforms are relatively rare. 

 

So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to 
RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need 
to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would 
mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.

 

How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!

 

Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com> anbo...@gmail.com 
<mailto:anbo...@gmail.com> 

970-672-4342


 

 

 

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > 
wrote:

In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a 
question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up 
with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to 
the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC 
circuits. Does anyone know?

 

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now 
I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. 

 

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and 
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG 
inside junction boxes. 

 

Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Glenn Burt]

Soladeck has been offering their product with DIN rail mounted terminal blocks 
(I forget the manufacturer, Wiedmueller or Phoenix Contact maybe) for years 
now, and listed for 600VDC use.

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2021 2:31 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

This whole high voltage connection discussion got me searching, and I found 
Phoenix Contact makes a DIN rail mount terminal block that is 1000 v rated.  
That would seem to make way more sense than using MC 4 connects in a J box, and 
would provide the access for voltage readings and torque check that William 
mentioned.  Has anybody tried them?

https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?1dmy 
<https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?1dmy&urile=wcm%3apath%3a/usen/web/main/products/subcategory_pages/Modular_terminal_blocks_for_photovoltaics_P-15-09/eb8c193d-6a2d-4349-8f89-2d523fd5b04f>
 
&urile=wcm%3apath%3a/usen/web/main/products/subcategory_pages/Modular_terminal_blocks_for_photovoltaics_P-15-09/eb8c193d-6a2d-4349-8f89-2d523fd5b04f

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/7/21 8:47 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

 

Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector.  
It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle.  This 
connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it 
gets hot.  We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more 
resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc.  

 

We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that 
the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between 
one conductor and the other.  

 

I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in 
direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm 
the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is also necessary to have control 
over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed 
torque specs.

 

Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter.  This 
unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could get a meter probe into 
the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to take the cover off the electronics 
sections and measure voltage at the circuit board.  I much prefer a screw 
terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it.

 

William Miller

 

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 

CA Lic. 773985

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> ] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

 

Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use 
Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified 
for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is 
easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test 
platforms are relatively rare. 

 

So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to 
RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need 
to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would 
mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.

 

How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!

 

Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com> anbo...@gmail.com 
<mailto:anbo...@gmail.com> 

970-672-4342


 

 

 

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > 
wrote:

In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a 
question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up 
with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to 
the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC 
circuits. Does anyone know?

 

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now 
I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. 

 

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and 
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG 
inside junction boxes. 

 

Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group

 





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Ray]

This whole high voltage connection discussion got me searching, and I 
found Phoenix Contact makes a DIN rail mount terminal block that is 1000 
v rated.  That would seem to make way more sense than using MC 4 
connects in a J box, and would provide the access for voltage readings 
and torque check that William mentioned.  Has anybody tried them?


https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?1dmy&urile=wcm%3apath%3a/usen/web/main/products/subcategory_pages/Modular_terminal_blocks_for_photovoltaics_P-15-09/eb8c193d-6a2d-4349-8f89-2d523fd5b04f

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/7/21 8:47 PM, William Miller wrote:


Friends:

Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago 
connector.  It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A 
receptacle.  This connection relies on a spring that is subject to 
reduction in force when it gets hot.  We have seen many of the 
back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat 
increases, creating more heat, etc.


We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or 
batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any 
intermediate object between one conductor and the other.


I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors 
to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can 
determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is 
also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the 
connection, which is why there are listed torque specs.


Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 
inverter.  This unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could 
get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to 
take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the 
circuit board.  I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque 
and get a meter probe onto it.


William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Dan 
Fink

*Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 
30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage 
is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies 
tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp 
up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare.


So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks 
compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector 
under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math 
backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would 
be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.


How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!

Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com 
<mailto:anbo...@gmail.com>


970-672-4342


On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski 
<mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote:


In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There
was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't
think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the
connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine
whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?

I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very
effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits
up to 600 volts.

While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for
grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices
for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes.

Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches, William
Agree the push in connectors leave alot to be desired, however l have had
no issue testing voltage at the connector in SMA. The industry is making
installation of solar and for that matter most construction to easy and
screw in lugs require more time and skill.
Jerry
NABCEP PV inspector

On Fri, May 7, 2021, 6:25 PM William Miller  wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago
> connector.  It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A
> receptacle.  This connection relies on a spring that is subject to
> reduction in force when it gets hot.  We have seen many of the back-wire
> receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more
> heat, etc.
>
>
>
> We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries
> that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate
> object between one conductor and the other.
>
>
>
> I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to
> be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and
> reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is also necessary to
> have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why
> there are listed torque specs.
>
>
>
> Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter.
> This unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could get a meter
> probe into the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to take the cover off
> the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board.  I much
> prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto
> it.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dan Fink
> *Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)
>
>
>
> Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A,
> Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just
> specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC,
> because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC,
> and DC test platforms are relatively rare.
>
>
>
> So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks
> compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under
> UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a
> 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to
> 424.33 VDC.
>
>
>
> How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!
>
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>
> d anbo...@gmail.com
>
> 970-672-4342
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?
>
>
>
> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.
>
>
>
> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
> AWG inside junction boxes.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios

Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I am with you William ! I also know that alot of rookies apply torque
quickly. Torque needs to be slowly applied up to the rating. This allows
the wire to take shape and not loosen up the connection later. Probably one
of the biggest sources of connection failures is a loose connection that
was not done right to begin with. 

Take your time on this one, or at least
go back in a month or so and check it!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we
go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:47:44
-0700, William Miller  wrote:   

Friends: 

Call me old fashioned, but I
cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector. It seems somewhat akin to
the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle. This connection relies on a
spring that is subject to reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen
many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat
increases, creating more heat, etc.  

We have learned when connecting
battery cables to inverters or batteries that the best connection does not
have any washer or any intermediate object between one conductor and the
other.  

I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my
conductors to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can
determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also
necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the connection,
which is why there are listed torque specs. 

Yesterday I was measuring the
line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. This unit uses the Wago terminal.
There was no way I could get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line
voltage. I had to take the cover off the electronics sections and measure
voltage at the circuit board. I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust
the torque and get a meter probe onto it. 

William Miller 

Miller Solar


17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 

805-438-5600 

www.millersolar.com
[3] 

CA Lic. 773985 

FROM: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [4]] ON BEHALF OF Dan
Fink
SENT: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
TO: RE-wrenches
SUBJECT: Re:
[RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) 

Jason; From the Wago 221 data
sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have
a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing.
That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper)
to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are
relatively rare.

So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC
voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated
connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that
math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would
be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.   

How that would apply to AHJs asking you
questions, I do not know!   

Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy
Consulting LLC   

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind
Installation   

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector   

d
[5]anbo...@gmail.com [6]   

970-672-4342   

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43
PM Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

In another thread these connectors were
discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC
circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I
see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine
whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?  

I
have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now
I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.   


While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
AWG inside junction boxes.

Jason Szumlanski   

Florida Solar Design
Group   

  

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
http://www.millersolar.com/
[4]
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[5]
mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com
[6] mailto:anbo...@gmail.com
[7]
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[William Miller]

Friends:



Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago
connector.  It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A
receptacle.  This connection relies on a spring that is subject to
reduction in force when it gets hot.  We have seen many of the back-wire
receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more
heat, etc.



We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries
that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate
object between one conductor and the other.



I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to
be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and
reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is also necessary to
have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why
there are listed torque specs.



Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter.
This unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could get a meter
probe into the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to take the cover off
the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board.  I much
prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto
it.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dan Fink
*Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)



Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use
Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just
specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC,
because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC,
and DC test platforms are relatively rare.



So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared
to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would
need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating
would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.



How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!



Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

d anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342








On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?



I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.



While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
AWG inside junction boxes.



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series)

[Dan Fink]

Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use
Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just
specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC,
because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC,
and DC test platforms are relatively rare.

So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared
to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would
need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating
would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC.

How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know!

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a
> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came
> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL
> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable
> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know?
>
> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective.
> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts.
>
> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and
> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10
> AWG inside junction boxes.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
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