RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Eric Lemmon]

Jeff,

The DVP Micor uses a TRN8095A A&S board, while the non-DVP stations use the
TRN6006A board.  The only differences involve the values of C231, C232,
C233, C234, R234, and R237 which is used only on the DVP board.  These
components are all clustered at Test Points 12, 13, 14, and 15 on the
schematic, and appear to affect only the squelch action.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:20 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jeff DePolo
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

  

Yes, it is a DVP station. I have the DVP manual and I just checked the spec.
It's the same < 0.5 uV for 20 dBQ. The test procedure does say to load the
speaker. I'll give that a try tomorrow. 
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote:

> The SP docs show it being a DVP station. DVP receivers have wider (and
> flatter) IF filtering than standard Micor Sensitron receivers. They need a
> flatter IF passband to decode DVP properly. I'm wondering if that's why
the
> 20 dBQ reading comes out higher than normal. I *thought* the A/S board was
> the same between DVP and standard stations, so the AF circuitry should be
> the same between the discriminator and the speaker terminals.
> 
> --- Jeff
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Tim Sawyer [mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com 
] 
>> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:04 PM
>> To: Jeff DePolo
>> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
>> 
>> Here you go Jeff. Let me know what you see. 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

Yes, it is a DVP station. I have the DVP manual and I just checked the spec. 
It's the same < 0.5 uV for 20 dBQ. The test procedure does say to load the 
speaker. I'll give that a try tomorrow. 
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote:

> The SP docs show it being a DVP station.  DVP receivers have wider (and
> flatter) IF filtering than standard Micor Sensitron receivers.  They need a
> flatter IF passband to decode DVP properly.  I'm wondering if that's why the
> 20 dBQ reading comes out higher than normal.  I *thought* the A/S board was
> the same between DVP and standard stations, so the AF circuitry should be
> the same between the discriminator and the speaker terminals.
> 
>   --- Jeff
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Tim Sawyer [mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:04 PM
>> To: Jeff DePolo
>> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
>> 
>> Here you go Jeff. Let me know what you see. 
>> 
>> 
> 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Larry Wagoner]

At 08:05 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote:
>You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174
>MHz band, with an external relay, and is found in the Mastr Executive II
>radio. LBI-30253 covers it:
>
>
>The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter,
>the relay, or the system control board. Have you already discounted these
>possible culprits?

Nothing eliminated yet.
This radio was doing OK - and developed this problem lately.
We have noticed variable output, "garbling" of the audio, and what 
appears to me from a remote mobile location to be momentary carrier drops.

The garbled audio is accompanied by a major drop in output, while the 
momentary carrier drops look almost like someone is letting go of the 
key were we working simplex. It lasts only a moment before coming back up.



Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
PRCARC Training Officer
PIC - MS SECT ARRL 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Larry Wagoner]

At 07:41 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote:
>This is either an Exec II or a Mastr II - two different radios. The Exec II
>mobile is 'gray' and has a plastic, non-movable handle. The Mastr II mobile
>has a foldable handle. Which one do you have?

OK - That would make this an Exec II - converted by MCC in Florida.



Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
PRCARC Training Officer
PIC - MS SECT ARRL 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Larry Wagoner]

At 07:52 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote:
>I believe you are talking about an Exec II.

Yes ...

>Several places to check before replacing the PA.
>A common problem is the jumper between the exciter and the PA. The RCA
>connectors sometimes go intermittent. Also, if the TR relay hasn't been
>jumpered, it could have gone intermittent.

OK - will check the jumper.
This was a conversion by MCC in Florida ...



Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
PRCARC Training Officer
PIC - MS SECT ARRL 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Eric Lemmon]

Larry,

You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174
MHz band, and is found in the Mastr Executive II radio.  LBI-30253 covers
it:


The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter or
the system control board.  Have you already discounted these possible
culprits?

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Wagoner
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:27 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

  



>Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason 
>to suspect the PA in our repeater.

It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, 
distorted audio, varying output, etc.) ..

I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II 
mobile radio conversion.
If I have the wrong board number, please advise ...

Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
PRCARC Training Officer
PIC - MS SECT ARRL 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Eric Lemmon]

Larry,

You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174
MHz band, with an external relay, and is found in the Mastr Executive II
radio.  LBI-30253 covers it:


The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter,
the relay, or the system control board.  Have you already discounted these
possible culprits?

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Wagoner
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:27 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

>Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason 
>to suspect the PA in our repeater.

It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, 
distorted audio, varying output, etc.) ..

I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II 
mobile radio conversion.
If I have the wrong board number, please advise ...

Larry Wagoner - N5WLW

Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Chuck Kelsey]

Larry -

This is either an Exec II or a Mastr II - two different radios. The Exec II 
mobile is 'gray' and has a plastic, non-movable handle. The Mastr II mobile 
has a foldable handle. Which one do you have?

Chuck
WB2EDV


- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Wagoner" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1


>
>
>
>>Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason
>>to suspect the PA in our repeater.
>
> It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier,
> distorted audio, varying output, etc.) ..
>
> I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II
> mobile radio conversion.
> If I have the wrong board number, please advise ...
>
>
>
> Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
> PRCARC Training Officer
> PIC - MS SECT ARRL
>

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Ian Wells]

Guys .I have a similar problem with 2 repeaters but its in the receiver side
.The maxon sm4450uhf receiver is tuned to the best it can be on the service
monitor -115db and the bpbr duplexer is tuned to correct specs as far as I
can see on the hp8921a .I have also tested the repeater in duplex mode into
the service monitor and all good -115db no static, power out  good  
Replaced the antenna and interconnecting cable is heliax and its  all good 
I will be testing the antenna system with a new MFJ-269 antenna tester  to
make sure its ok .Transmission is a1 full distance but when a transmission
is sent the repeater its good up close fast to come on but  is slow to come
on with distant stations.  We are using a ctcss tone which I will be
checking to see if it is correct .Saying that I should try it without the
ctcss and see if it is better without the ctcss detection.

Thank You ,Ian Wells
Kerinvale Comaudio,
3A Murchison Street, Biloela.4715
Ph 0749922449 Mb 0409159932 
Hm 0749922574 Fx 0749922767
www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au
 
---Original Message---
 
From: Jeff DePolo
Date: 7/09/2010 8:50:36 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions
 
  

Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone
frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their
CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are
convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another...

--- Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer 
> SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like 
> to turn my stuff back at least 10%.
> 
> Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the 
> power. see what they say.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: 
> 
> John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it 
> has nothing to do with hardware...
> 
> If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
> 
> If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 
> 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the 
> repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 
> dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.
> 
> Tell him guys...am I wrong?
> 
> ;^)
> 
> 73,
> Paul, AE4KR
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: Tim Sawyer  
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power 
> out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 <>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Chuck Kelsey]

I believe you are talking about an Exec II.

Several places to check before replacing the PA.

A common problem is the jumper between the exciter and the PA. The RCA 
connectors sometimes go intermittent. Also, if the TR relay hasn't been 
jumpered, it could have gone intermittent.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Wagoner" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1


>
>
>
>>Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason
>>to suspect the PA in our repeater.
>
> It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier,
> distorted audio, varying output, etc.) ..
>
> I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II
> mobile radio conversion.
> If I have the wrong board number, please advise ...
>
>
>
> Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
> PRCARC Training Officer
> PIC - MS SECT ARRL
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3117 - Release Date: 09/06/10 
02:35:00

[Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1

[Larry Wagoner]

>Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason 
>to suspect the PA in our repeater.

It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, 
distorted audio, varying output, etc.) ..

I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II 
mobile radio conversion.
If I have the wrong board number, please advise ...



Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
PRCARC Training Officer
PIC - MS SECT ARRL 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Eric Lemmon]

Readers interested in this thread may find the following articles to be
relevant:




73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:00 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

  

I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 77, a "Sinadder
3" (SINAD & AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. Pretty much same results with all.
That is 20 db quieting around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the
recommended meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the quieting
reading up some unknown meter problems?


Yes, measuring on the speaker terminals with no speaker. The Sinadder and
8924c have internal speakers but I suspect they are not loading the
receiver. 

Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 modifications.
Would you like me to scan and email you a copy?

--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote:


Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such
as
noise). Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies
(like
above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way. What kind of
meter
are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is
where you
should be measuring from)?

Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your
SP
Micor?

--- Jeff WN3A

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Jeff DePolo]

> I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 
> 77, a "Sinadder 3" (SINAD & AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. 
> Pretty much same results with all. That is 20 db quieting 
> around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the recommended 
> meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the 
> quieting reading up some unknown meter problems?

Very odd.  I'd probably want to load the speaker PA; I usually just leave
the speaker connected or use a load box.  
 
> Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 
> modifications. Would you like me to scan and email you a copy?

I'd be curious to see if any of the mods would affect AF response, IF
bandwidth, or anything else that could be throwing off your numbers.

IIRC, older Micor manuals didn't even have a 12 dB SINAD sensitivity spec,
only a 20 dBQ spec/test procedure.  That's what I remember always using as a
pass/fail reference.  Of course, SINAD is a better test, but you should
expect an in-band Micor to still meet the quieting spec.

--- Jeff WN3A

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 77, a "Sinadder 3" 
(SINAD & AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. Pretty much same results with all. That 
is 20 db quieting around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the recommended 
meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the quieting reading up some 
unknown meter problems?

Yes, measuring on the speaker terminals with no speaker. The Sinadder and 8924c 
have internal speakers but I suspect they are not loading the receiver. 

Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 modifications. Would 
you like me to scan and email you a copy?

--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote:

> Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such as
> noise). Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies (like
> above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way. What kind of meter
> are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is where you
> should be measuring from)?
> 
> Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your SP
> Micor?
> 
> --- Jeff WN3A

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Jeff DePolo]

Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone
frequency.  Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their
CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are
convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another...

--- Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer 
> SOLVED with more questions
> 
>   
> 
> I agree.  Put it back to the original output.  I always like 
> to turn my stuff back at least 10%.
> 
> Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the 
> power.  see what they say.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: 
> 
>   John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it 
> has nothing to do with hardware...
>
>   If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
>
>   If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 
> 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the 
> repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 
> dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.
>
>   Tell him guys...am I wrong?
>
>   ;^)
>
>   73,
>   Paul, AE4KR
>
>
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Tim Sawyer   
>   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power 
> out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Joe]

 I agree.  Put it back to the original output.  I always like to turn 
my stuff back at least 10%.


Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power.  see 
what they say.


73, Joe, K1ike

On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote:



John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to 
do with hardware...

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users 
will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've 
increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have 
noticed the improved coverage.

Tell him guys...am I wrong?
;^)
73,
Paul, AE4KR

- Original Message -
*From:* Tim Sawyer 
*To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com

*Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer
SOLVED with more questions

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Jeff DePolo]

Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such as
noise).  Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies (like
above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way.  What kind of meter
are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is where you
should be measuring from)?

Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your SP
Micor?

--- Jeff WN3A

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:07 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
> 
>   
> 
> The Micor book says less than 0.5 uV for 20db quieting or 
> 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. So the two are in fact equivalent. I 
> get better than 0.35 for 12 db SINAD but I don't measure 0.5 
> for 20 db quieting. I must be doing something wrong.
> 
> --
> Tim
> :wq
> 
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting
>   John VE3AMZ
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Tim Sawyer   
>   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
> 
>   I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But 
> that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is 
> open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac 
> then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am 
> I missing something? 
> 
>   
>   --
>   Tim
>   :wq
> 
>   On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:
> 
> 
>spec is 0.5
>   uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a 
> preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting
>   method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively 
> when using the 12 dB SINAD method
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Mike Besemer (WM4B)]

Paul speaks the truth.

 

I had one fellow who always insisted something was wrong with the repeater
when the foliage came on the trees every spring.  I tried to explain to him
that the leaves and humidity were attenuating the signal and that it was
just a fact of life for the fringe-area users.  Nonetheless, he insisted
that the power was down or the VSWR was up.

 

After arguing (nicely) with this fellow for a couple of weeks, I programmed
a voice message on the repeater that I could call at-will and then told him
I'd installed a wattmeter at the site that interfaced with the controller.
I then demonstrated it to him.  The message read "The forward power is 35
watts and the reflected power is 0.7 watts".  With this new 'feature'
installed, he turned his attention to improving his antenna system. 

 

73,

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Plack
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:04 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions

 

  

John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do
with hardware...

 

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.

 

If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will
ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the
transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved
coverage.

 

Tell him guys...am I wrong?

 

;^)

 

73,

Paul, AE4KR

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Tim Sawyer   

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions

 

  

In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's
probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what
a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but
I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

The Micor book says less than 0.5 uV for 20db quieting or 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. 
So the two are in fact equivalent. I get better than 0.35 for 12 db SINAD but I 
don't measure 0.5 for 20 db quieting. I must be doing something wrong.
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote:

> 
> 2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting
> John VE3AMZ
> - Original Message -
> From: Tim Sawyer
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
> 
> I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting 
> to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the 
> volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am 
> I missing something?
> 
> --
> Tim
> :wq
> 
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:
> 
>>  spec is 0.5
>> uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting
>> method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[petedcurtis]

Hi,

70 watts out sounds OK.  Duplexer's usually have about a 1 - 2db loss
depends how they are set up, size of cavities etc and the model type.

Duplexer  loss   = 10log(Pin/Pout)  Duplexer  Loss  = 10Log(70/100)=
-1.54dB.


Peter

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, W3ML  wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
> had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
> notice it.
>
> I still have one question though.
>
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
> out of duplexer?
>
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
>
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
>
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com,
> Joe  wrote:
> >
> > What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the
> > loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder
> > joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should
> > find it, as it was discussed recently.
> >
> > The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not
> > over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If
> > your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N
> > connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter,
> > but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> >
> > What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans
> > and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in
> > series and see if there is output from that can. This process should
> > isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just
> > to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix
> > them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that
> > it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test
> > OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it
> > simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> >
> > This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with
> > the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second,
> > and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad
> > can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> >
> > The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have
> > available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> >
> > Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just
> > off the top of my head.
> >
> > On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
> learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
> involved with a VHF repeater system.
> > >
> > > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
> watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
> out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> > >
> > > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
> all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> > >
> > > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > 73
> > > John, W3ML
> > >
> >
>
>  
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Paul Plack]

John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with 
hardware...

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.

If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask 
you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter 
output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.

Tell him guys...am I wrong?

;^)

73,
Paul, AE4KR


  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Sawyer 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more 
questions



  In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is 
when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're 
better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Okay Tim.

That sounds like a wise idea especially since we have an old GE Mastr II and 
may not take much use at full power out.


Thanks and 73
John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Tim Sawyer  wrote:
>
> In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
> not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it 
> is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think 
> you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
> --
> Tim
> :wq
> 
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote:
> 
> > It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Tim Sawyer]

In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is 
when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're 
better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote:

> It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

Yea, I think 20 db quieting is more like 0.175 uV 12 db SINAD.
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote:

> 2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Mike, Joe and Ralph,

Thank you all for the great information about the power loss.  As I stated 
earlier, I am still earning about this repeater stuff.  In the past year and 
half I have learned more about repeaters than I knew in the first 29 years of 
being a ham.

It is great!  I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.

I have stored your answers away in the repeater folder for future reference and 
really do appreciate you taking the time to explain it all to me and maybe 
others that had questions as well.

73 John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Besemer \(WM4B\)" 
 wrote:
>
> WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss.  2.0 dB
> down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.
> 
>  
> 
> Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
> 
>  
> 
> 73,
> 
>  
> 
> Mike
> 
> WM4B
> 
>  
> 
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more
> questions
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks Joe.
> 
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
> had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
> notice it.
> 
> I still have one question though.
> 
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
> out of duplexer?
> 
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
> 
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
> 
> 73
> John, W3ML
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
>  , Joe  wrote:
> >
> > What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the 
> > loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> > joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should 
> > find it, as it was discussed recently.
> > 
> > The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not 
> > over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If 
> > your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N 
> > connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> > but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> > 
> > What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> > and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in 
> > series and see if there is output from that can. This process should 
> > isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> > to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix 
> > them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> > it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test 
> > OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it 
> > simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> > 
> > This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> > the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> > and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> > can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> > 
> > The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have 
> > available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> > 
> > Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> > off the top of my head.
> > 
> > On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
> learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
> involved with a VHF repeater system.
> > >
> > > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
> watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
> out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> > >
> > > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
> all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> > >
> > > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > 73
> > > John, W3ML
> > >
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Hi Joe,

I have a CN-801 Daiwa and it showed 0.1 on reflected side.

So that is not too bad.

Wacom model is 639 -6

We have no desense and a range of about 30 miles at best in all directions.

We were not wanting a large area of coverage, as it is used for the county 
emergency RACES/ARES service.

Thanks again for the information.

73
John, W3ML


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe  wrote:
>
>   I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. 
> That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? 
> The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the 
> estimated loss.
> 
> Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward 
> power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward 
> reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use?
> 
> As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote:
> >
> >
> > WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 
> > 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.
> >
> > Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > WM4B
> >
> > *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> > *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with 
> > more questions
> >
> > Thanks Joe.
> >
> > We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector 
> > center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test 
> > equipment and did not notice it.
> >
> > I still have one question though.
> >
> > Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts 
> > coming out of duplexer?
> >
> > Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
> >
> > That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[John J. Riddell]

2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting
John VE3AMZ
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Sawyer 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity




  I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting 
to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the 
volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I 
missing something?


  --
  Tim
  :wq


  On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:


 spec is 0.5
uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting
method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method





  

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to 
me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume 
to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing 
something?

--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:

>  spec is 0.5
> uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting
> method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method

Re: [Repeater-Builder] SIMPLEX software

[John]

Yes,

I have used it when I need a simplex station

John, K4AG

gabriel wrote:

>Hello
>Just for stats, does anyone use the SIMPLEX software by F6DQM to manage its 
>repeater ?
>Gab 
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Oz-in-DFW]

 Stuff to try:

   1. Verify that the LO multiplier chain is peaked correctly.  I've
  seen a bunch of these that exhibit this symptom that had mistuned
  LO chains.
   2. Feed the test signal into the RX directly.  If you see good
  sensitivity, you know where to looks  ;-)
   3. Take each of the bottom cover shields off in order and clean the
  tabs.  Put them back on and run a small screwdriver tip every 1/8"
  or so shorting the can  to its ground. If you see an improvement
  get out an iron and solder it.  I don't like doing this, but I
  haven't found an alternative that works.


On 9/6/2010 12:11 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:
>  
>
> I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is
> C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450
> Mhz). It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham
> band. But the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on
> the best channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment
> procedure and could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not
> meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more like .3 or so.
>
> So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there
> some common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be
> looking into?
> --
> Tim
>

-- 
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167 
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Glenn (Butch) Kanvick]

Hello Tim.
I think the specs on your Micor are 402-430, But I could be wrong.
What freq was it crystalled on before you retuned it?
Also what is the frequency you tuned it on now?
That gives us better information as to where it was and where you tuned it
to.

Butch, KE7FEL/r

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Tim Sawyer  wrote:

>
>
> I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is
> C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz).
> It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But
> the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel
> and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not
> make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was
> expecting more like .3 or so.
>
> So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some
> common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into?
> --
> Tim
> :wq
>
> 
>

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Eric Lemmon]

Ah, what a difference a factor of 1,000 makes!  Okay, the manual spec is 0.5
uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting
method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method.
Try connecting your service monitor directly to the input jack on the
preselector and repeat the sensitivity measurement.  If it is greatly
improved, start looking at cables and connectors.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY


-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:29 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

  

Eric,

It's 0.72 microvolts. Not totally dead, just a bit numb.

--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:24 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:


Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts,
or 720
uV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Chuck Kelsey]

There are shield covers on the RX board that need to be pulled off and have 
the ground pins cleaned. I watched a Motorola service shop do that and the 
sensitivity came back. He turned to me and said "you'd have been forever 
figuring that one out." Don't ask me why, but I saw it work.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Sawyer" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity


>I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is 
>C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). 
>It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But 
>the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best 
>channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and 
>could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec 
>and I was expecting more like .3 or so.
>
> So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some 
> common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking 
> into?
> --
> Tim
> :wq

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

Eric,

It's 0.72 microvolts. Not totally dead, just a bit numb.

--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:24 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote:

> Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts, or 720
> uV

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Eric Lemmon]

Tim,

Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts, or 720
uV- about 2400 times worse than the 0.3 uV you expect.  Such a huge
disparity points to a failed transistor or a shorted capacitor on the
receive board.  Perhaps your next step is to perform voltage checks and
compare your readings to those in the manual.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

  

I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is
C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz).
It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But
the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel
and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not
make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was
expecting more like .3 or so. 

So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some
common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? 
--
Tim
:wq

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station

[Bill]

My guess is that it is the harmonic filter, with the left coax leading to the 
pa or circulator if it has one...
.
bill
w4oo
.
.

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "wb5oxq"  wrote:
>
> I just aquired a second msf5000 to make a 2 meter repeater our of and it has 
> a part not present in the first station.  I suspect it could be a rx preamp 
> due to the fact it has coax input and output and it is wired in series 
> between the duplexer rx port and the receiver rf input.
> It appears to be an aluminum block rack mounted just below the power supply 
> and is about 1.5" thick and about 8 or 9 inches wide.  I did not see any 
> electrical connections so if it is a preamp it must get power from the coax 
> into the receiver.  I am not familiar with this device.  My other station did 
> not have this part.  Perhapps it is sopme kind of filter?   Both stations are 
> the digital capable models which I program with the rib and old laptop.  Any 
> ideas please!  Pictures on request if needed.
>

[Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity

[Tim Sawyer]

I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is 
C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). It 
came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But the 
receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel and .9 
on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not make any 
improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more 
like .3 or so. 

So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some common 
Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? 
--
Tim
:wq

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Ralph Mowery]

Depending on the frequency seperation it sounds like it is in the ball park.  
Maybe even not enough loss.  Quick in the head math short cut is that 1 db is 
about 25%.  That would give you 75 watts out of the duplexer for 100 watts in.  
If it is 3 db, that is half power or 50 watts out for 100 in.  Any loss between 
the two numbers could be correct.  



Again depending on the frequency seperation and isolation in DB, you can look 
for 1/2 to 1 DB per cavity.  That is for each side.  So 3 cans per side would 
be 
from 1.5 db to 3 db loss in the transmitt side and the same for the receive 
side.


 


- Original Message 
From: W3ML 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 10:54:37 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more 
questions

Thanks Joe.


We did most of those and then found the problem.  The T-connector center pin 
had 
broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice 
it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out 
of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.


That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML


  

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station

[Eric Lemmon]

Its size and location in the RF path suggests that it is an optional
preselector.  It should have five adjustment screws with locknuts, and bear
the designation TFD1011 or TFD1012.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wb5oxq
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:11 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station

  

I just aquired a second msf5000 to make a 2 meter repeater our of and it has
a part not present in the first station. I suspect it could be a rx preamp
due to the fact it has coax input and output and it is wired in series
between the duplexer rx port and the receiver rf input.
It appears to be an aluminum block rack mounted just below the power supply
and is about 1.5" thick and about 8 or 9 inches wide. I did not see any
electrical connections so if it is a preamp it must get power from the coax
into the receiver. I am not familiar with this device. My other station did
not have this part. Perhapps it is sopme kind of filter? Both stations are
the digital capable models which I program with the rib and old laptop. Any
ideas please! Pictures on request if needed.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Joe]

  I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. 
That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? 
The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the 
estimated loss.

Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward 
power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward 
reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use?

As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone.

73, Joe, K1ike

On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote:
>
>
> WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 
> 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you’re doing good.
>
> Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike
>
> WM4B
>
> *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML
> *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with 
> more questions
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector 
> center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test 
> equipment and did not notice it.
>
> I still have one question though.
>
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts 
> coming out of duplexer?
>
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
>
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
>







Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Mike Besemer (WM4B)]

WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss.  2.0 dB
down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.

 

Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.

 

73,

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more
questions

 

  

Thanks Joe.

We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
notice it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
out of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.

That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 , Joe  wrote:
>
> What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the 
> loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should 
> find it, as it was discussed recently.
> 
> The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not 
> over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If 
> your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N 
> connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> 
> What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in 
> series and see if there is output from that can. This process should 
> isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix 
> them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test 
> OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it 
> simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> 
> This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> 
> The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have 
> available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> 
> Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> off the top of my head.
> 
> On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
involved with a VHF repeater system.
> >
> > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> >
> > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> >
> > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Thanks Joe.


We did most of those and then found the problem.  The T-connector center pin 
had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not 
notice it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out 
of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.


That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe  wrote:
>
>   What make and model is the duplexer?   I know of one instance that the 
> loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> joint, but can't remember what one it was.  A search on this list should 
> find it, as it was discussed recently.
> 
> The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness.  Do not 
> over-tighten the connections!  Just make sure that they are snug.  If 
> your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much.   N 
> connectors need to be snug,  UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> 
> What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> and test the first one for power out.  Then connect the next can in 
> series and see if there is output from that can.  This process should 
> isolate the bad can(s).  Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> to be safe.  MARK all the cables as to where they came from.  Do not mix 
> them up.  It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> it is not the interconnecting cable.  If all the cans and cables test 
> OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer.  Keep it 
> simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> 
> This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> the duplexer.  Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> and lastly the cans.  The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> 
> The real fix would involve some test equipment.  What do you have 
> available?  Service monitor, tracking generator?
> 
> Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> off the top of my head.
> 
> On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and 
> > learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been 
> > involved with a VHF repeater system.
> >
> >   Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts 
> > out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of 
> > duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> >
> > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. 
> > Radio still shows power coming out.
> >
> > Nothing was touch on the duplexer.  Any ideas?
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer

[Joe]

  What make and model is the duplexer?   I know of one instance that the 
loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
joint, but can't remember what one it was.  A search on this list should 
find it, as it was discussed recently.

The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness.  Do not 
over-tighten the connections!  Just make sure that they are snug.  If 
your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much.   N 
connectors need to be snug,  UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.

What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
and test the first one for power out.  Then connect the next can in 
series and see if there is output from that can.  This process should 
isolate the bad can(s).  Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
to be safe.  MARK all the cables as to where they came from.  Do not mix 
them up.  It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
it is not the interconnecting cable.  If all the cans and cables test 
OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer.  Keep it 
simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.

This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
the duplexer.  Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
and lastly the cans.  The process above will help you isolate the bad 
can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.

The real fix would involve some test equipment.  What do you have 
available?  Service monitor, tracking generator?

Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
off the top of my head.

On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning 
> as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with 
> a VHF repeater system.
>
>   Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts 
> out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of 
> duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
>
> But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. 
> Radio still shows power coming out.
>
> Nothing was touch on the duplexer.  Any ideas?
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer

[Chuck Kelsey]

Sounds like a bad cable/connector. Are there any adaptors or elbows? They 
could be suspect.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "W3ML" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:37 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer


> Hi,
>
> First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and 
> learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been 
> involved with a VHF repeater system.
>
> Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts 
> out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out 
> of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
>
> But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at 
> all. Radio still shows power coming out.
>
> Nothing was touch on the duplexer.  Any ideas?
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
> 

[Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer

[W3ML]

Hi,

First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning 
as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a 
VHF repeater system.

 Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out 
of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of 
duplexer it seemed to be working okay.

But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. 
Radio still shows power coming out.

Nothing was touch on the duplexer.  Any ideas?

73
John, W3ML