Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Nate, Most Hams know their own rig very well. They might not know what all functions such as DCS is for because few use DCS. I have little worry in a time of need a ham will be able to operate his/her rig. We were talking about EOCs and other rigs where users were not familiar with them. Training will help some, but is often forgotten quickly. I have trouble when I have to do something on some of my rigs that I very seldom do more on than just tune and talk. I re-learn the process and get there. Rigs are so different in their operations. The real problem will not be Hams knowing how to set up a rig. Pre-programming can solve this in most cases. The real problem and needed training is what they do with the rigs once they are set up. This is where the training is required. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/27 Thu PM 07:28:21 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Ron Wright wrote: Nate, Wish it were that easy. In about all my rigs to set the freq is easy, turn the tuning knob. Most have standard offset and hope the repeater you are going to does also. As for CTCSS most all my rigs require multiple setting and menus. One to set the freq, one to set rx or tx, etc. The point is that you just demonstrated that you know some things there that a LOT of volunteer hams don't! You know about rigs with and without standard offsets. You know why there's that RPT button on rigs. You know you need a CTCSS tone, and what it does. You learned that somewhere. Someone had to TRAIN you, or you had to TRAIN yourself. For those volunteer who REFUSE to self-train, they must be SHOWN and TESTED. How many hams even know that some modern rigs (finally) HAVE different CTCSS tones for TX/RX? (Which is actually fairly rare in Amateur rigs, but common in all commercial rigs for over a decade now.) You do. But for you to run around programming their radios for them, is ultimately a job that never ends -- you need to TRAIN them about what you know about HOW the rigs work, not how to spin the pre-programmed dial some radio guru set up for them. In the end, they're USELESS operators if you do that work and effort for them. Then comes the 2 years later when it must be done again. I don't care if it is 3 months later many will not be able to set some of the items in a rig they have been trained on. Well, if you go back to my Aviation analogy, there are recurrency requirements in Aviation also for that reason. *REAL* Emergency communications and Aviation share a common theme... lives are on the line. Aviation's had 100 years to come up with the bare minimum rules/regulations to keep people from dying as much as reasonably possible. It's not a bad model to emulate. Written test. Practical test. Logs that show you're current and safe before you can carry passengers. Specific time and safety-related reviews with an instructor required every so often. Of course, I'll certainly point out that hams RARELY are doing real *Emergency* communications. In all but the utterly devastating largest scale events, we're passing traffic about how many donuts are left at the shelter. Nothing life-threatening, and most of the traffic won't be delayed too badly by poor radio discipline, not knowing how to run the radio, etc. (In other words, we're the communications dumping ground for crap the real emergency responders don't want to do. And we get all excited and think we're adding great value when we do it, so ... that's fine... but it's why I don't bother to volunteer. I figure my skillset will be more badly needed to drive my dumb butt up to a site and get repeaters back on the air... or deploy portables for others to use... so I limit my EmComm activity to that.) Pre-program what you need then if there are 5 freq/tone/offsets in a system just quickly turn the knob. Yes, but ham rigs have memories. Use them, but also leave the VFO knob available. Don't switch to radios that have no flexibility, or you take away things a GOOD operator can use. If the approach of no training then no operation then lots of people will be left without EmComm and this is not an option. Lots of people will be left without *BAD* EmComm, which isn't a loss for them OR outsider's view of the hobby. Really sounds as if so many are planning a weekend bike run and not the real thing. I saw the need for someone not trained to do a commo job immediately in the military and the no training no do was not an option. Thus why military systems are set up to be operated by any monkey. That's not the focus of Amateur Radio -- we're a pool of TRAINED operators, according to Part 97. Not PTT-monkeys. Trained operators can fill both the important roles of flexible, knowledgeable, radio operator and also the PTT-monkey shoes, as required
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, that will work. Then again, many amateur transceivers have a simpleton mode that only allows volume, squelch memory channel adjustment. Might be a cheaper more flexible solution since the radio can still be easily reprogrammed by anyone who does know the radio. Bob NO6B I hear there's a channelized service with 40 channels AM (and SSB too) down around the 11 meter portion of the spectrum. Perhaps hams that can't figure out a VFO and a couple of menu options might like one of those rigs in the emergency comm station because they're so easy to operate. (Sorry... had to poke fun at this silliness.) Here's the reality of it... for emergency comms, just handle it like anything else. If you're not checked out on the gear, you don't operate it. Just like anyone else with lives on the line... pilots, commercial drivers, etc. If you were checked out and you blow something up, both you AND the guy that signed you off are responsible until the cause of the accident is determined. Sounds a lot like aviation, doesn't it? Guess what... it works. With a radio it takes 5 minutes... someone stands there and says, Tune to X, standard repeater offset, and set a X Hz CTCSS tone and waits to see if the person can do it. Do a few more. If they can't operate the rig, it'll be obvious. And if they're not signed off, they're not authorized to use the community gear, because they'll blow it up. If the emergency station is configured with other tools, like a PC and sound-card HF software or similar, those would have separate check-rides. Nate WY0X
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Nate, hear hear. In fact, I'd take it a step further. We only stay checked out on a piece of equipment if we use it regularly. For that matter, equipment which sits and gathers dust for years doesn't stay reliable. Is buying radios for permanent installation at an EOC really smart? Back in the 1980s, after the Teton Dam Disaster in Idaho, there was awareness within the LDS church that its facilities should be ham-friendly, because that had turned out to be the only reliable form of communications in the aftermath of the event. For a while, it was possible to get church funding for ham stations, especially where relief supplies were stored. Not any more. I'm told the reason is that hams would show up to operate church-owned equipment and be too unfamiliar with it to be useful. When hams had to bring their own gear, they were much more likely to arrive knowing how to use it immediately. I wonder if the best solution for EOCs would not be to provide 12V power, antennas, adapters for SO-238 and BNC chained down so they couldn't walk away, and require the hams to show up with their own radios as part of their go-kits. It's a blast to have a grant application approved, but getting institutional radios has a down-side. Retired commercial radios could be a good choice, and easy for county governments to come by, but make sure some of the channels on that cheat sheet are simplex, and you train to operate a net that way. Storms and floods often leave many repeaters operational, but I'm not sure an earthquake or volcanic event would be so considerate. I've also heard repeaters jammed by miscreants when they're needed most. Sad, but it happens. 73, Paul, AE4KR _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:18 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:no6b%40no6b.com wrote: OK, that will work. Then again, many amateur transceivers have a simpleton mode that only allows volume, squelch memory channel adjustment. Might be a cheaper more flexible solution since the radio can still be easily reprogrammed by anyone who does know the radio. Bob NO6B I hear there's a channelized service with 40 channels AM (and SSB too) down around the 11 meter portion of the spectrum. Perhaps hams that can't figure out a VFO and a couple of menu options might like one of those rigs in the emergency comm station because they're so easy to operate. (Sorry... had to poke fun at this silliness.) Here's the reality of it... for emergency comms, just handle it like anything else. If you're not checked out on the gear, you don't operate it. Just like anyone else with lives on the line... pilots, commercial drivers, etc. If you were checked out and you blow something up, both you AND the guy that signed you off are responsible until the cause of the accident is determined. Sounds a lot like aviation, doesn't it? Guess what... it works. With a radio it takes 5 minutes... someone stands there and says, Tune to X, standard repeater offset, and set a X Hz CTCSS tone and waits to see if the person can do it. Do a few more. If they can't operate the rig, it'll be obvious. And if they're not signed off, they're not authorized to use the community gear, because they'll blow it up. If the emergency station is configured with other tools, like a PC and sound-card HF software or similar, those would have separate check-rides. Nate WY0X
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Nate, Wish it were that easy. In about all my rigs to set the freq is easy, turn the tuning knob. Most have standard offset and hope the repeater you are going to does also. As for CTCSS most all my rigs require multiple setting and menus. One to set the freq, one to set rx or tx, etc. Then comes the 2 years later when it must be done again. I don't care if it is 3 months later many will not be able to set some of the items in a rig they have been trained on. Pre-program what you need then if there are 5 freq/tone/offsets in a system just quickly turn the knob. If the approach of no training then no operation then lots of people will be left without EmComm and this is not an option. Really sounds as if so many are planning a weekend bike run and not the real thing. I saw the need for someone not trained to do a commo job immediately in the military and the no training no do was not an option. I do encourage all to train as much as they can. It is valuable, but often helps less then some think. 73, ron, n9ee/r With a radio it takes 5 minutes... someone stands there and says, Tune to X, standard repeater offset, and set a X Hz CTCSS tone and waits to see if the person can do it. Do a few more. Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Ron Wright wrote: Nate, Wish it were that easy. In about all my rigs to set the freq is easy, turn the tuning knob. Most have standard offset and hope the repeater you are going to does also. As for CTCSS most all my rigs require multiple setting and menus. One to set the freq, one to set rx or tx, etc. The point is that you just demonstrated that you know some things there that a LOT of volunteer hams don't! You know about rigs with and without standard offsets. You know why there's that RPT button on rigs. You know you need a CTCSS tone, and what it does. You learned that somewhere. Someone had to TRAIN you, or you had to TRAIN yourself. For those volunteer who REFUSE to self-train, they must be SHOWN and TESTED. How many hams even know that some modern rigs (finally) HAVE different CTCSS tones for TX/RX? (Which is actually fairly rare in Amateur rigs, but common in all commercial rigs for over a decade now.) You do. But for you to run around programming their radios for them, is ultimately a job that never ends -- you need to TRAIN them about what you know about HOW the rigs work, not how to spin the pre-programmed dial some radio guru set up for them. In the end, they're USELESS operators if you do that work and effort for them. Then comes the 2 years later when it must be done again. I don't care if it is 3 months later many will not be able to set some of the items in a rig they have been trained on. Well, if you go back to my Aviation analogy, there are recurrency requirements in Aviation also for that reason. *REAL* Emergency communications and Aviation share a common theme... lives are on the line. Aviation's had 100 years to come up with the bare minimum rules/regulations to keep people from dying as much as reasonably possible. It's not a bad model to emulate. Written test. Practical test. Logs that show you're current and safe before you can carry passengers. Specific time and safety-related reviews with an instructor required every so often. Of course, I'll certainly point out that hams RARELY are doing real *Emergency* communications. In all but the utterly devastating largest scale events, we're passing traffic about how many donuts are left at the shelter. Nothing life-threatening, and most of the traffic won't be delayed too badly by poor radio discipline, not knowing how to run the radio, etc. (In other words, we're the communications dumping ground for crap the real emergency responders don't want to do. And we get all excited and think we're adding great value when we do it, so ... that's fine... but it's why I don't bother to volunteer. I figure my skillset will be more badly needed to drive my dumb butt up to a site and get repeaters back on the air... or deploy portables for others to use... so I limit my EmComm activity to that.) Pre-program what you need then if there are 5 freq/tone/offsets in a system just quickly turn the knob. Yes, but ham rigs have memories. Use them, but also leave the VFO knob available. Don't switch to radios that have no flexibility, or you take away things a GOOD operator can use. If the approach of no training then no operation then lots of people will be left without EmComm and this is not an option. Lots of people will be left without *BAD* EmComm, which isn't a loss for them OR outsider's view of the hobby. Really sounds as if so many are planning a weekend bike run and not the real thing. I saw the need for someone not trained to do a commo job immediately in the military and the no training no do was not an option. Thus why military systems are set up to be operated by any monkey. That's not the focus of Amateur Radio -- we're a pool of TRAINED operators, according to Part 97. Not PTT-monkeys. Trained operators can fill both the important roles of flexible, knowledgeable, radio operator and also the PTT-monkey shoes, as required. Untrained operators, can't. I do encourage all to train as much as they can. It is valuable, but often helps less then some think. Where it helps is in getting people FAMILIAR with the different rig configurations and possibilities. Teach 'em to use your memory channels, sure... but also teach 'em how to THINK and how the rigs WORK and they'll be more effective in a very short period of time. If we give up and don't train/teach/mentor/Elmer people -- and just accept all volunteers with no requirement to learn -- we get what we deserve in this hobby today. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: (card 1 face) Operating Instructions using preprogrammed memory channels: 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch Step 1... Turn off odd-ball rig you've never seen before, and pull the one you're used to using out of your go kit. Hook it to the powerpoles and antenna connection so graciously already provided behind the rig on the desk, and operate. (GRIN) Just kidding Mike -- kinda. Sorry, no cheat sheets for the Yaesu's here. The real confusion for most modern rigs is that they expect people to think in terms of modes or menus and making up cheat sheets that cover any possible odd-ball menu or mode the rig could get left in, is difficult. An operator can also go into a deep menu somewhere and set a setting that drives everyone else bonkers trying to figure out why the rig is misbehaving. (A good example would be turning off the ALC on an SSB rig... down in a menu somewhere, and then walking away. Will drive the next op bananas and they'll never find it if they're unfamiliar with the rig, without a menu by menu search for the problem. You might even see a frustrated operator do a soft-reset on the rig, thus blowing away all the memories and other stuff someone worked hard on.) Want some realistic training and some fun? Get some duplicates of all the radio types (even if borrowed) and set them up the same as the rigs currently being used. Hook 'em to power and dummy loads in a training room, then hand people 4 X 5 cards with their tactical callsigns, a message to pass to another stations, and tell them they have to set up a net on a particular frequency and pass the traffic. Go. Randomly assign operators to the radios in the training room, and then start a stopwatch. (GRIN) No cheat sheets, no laminated cards... all you get is the grey matter in your skull and your eyeballs to read the tiny little labels on the buttons on the rig. No matter if you've used that rig before or not. Have an instructor or two monitor over their shoulders who know that rig, to catch them and stop them if they do anything that might damage the rig or otherwise leave it badly misconfigured. As a bonus, you would quickly find out what radio is a complete pain in the ass for the operators, and you can pull it out and mandate it not be installed at any EOC. (BIGGER GRIN) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training class? You are not. Also I can train Hams on a radio right down to the nitty griddy details and 2 years later when they come in for a real operation they will swear they have never seen the radio, hi. The process is to set up the rigs so all one has to do is turn on, set to memory 1, 2 or 3 (which given on a well displayed info sheet), pick up the mike and communicate. Hams do a pretty good job of talking. If there are complex issues one needs a central one, two or three person expert on the equipment. The Military has done this for decades. A troop can go from CA to TN and operate the rigs in the TOC. The tactics will differ, but the radios are not the problem. We should strive for this simplicity in Ham emergency commo. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/26 Wed AM 04:36:47 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: (card 1 face) Operating Instructions using preprogrammed memory channels: 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch Step 1... Turn off odd-ball rig you've never seen before, and pull the one you're used to using out of your go kit. Hook it to the powerpoles and antenna connection so graciously already provided behind the rig on the desk, and operate. (GRIN) Just kidding Mike -- kinda. Sorry, no cheat sheets for the Yaesu's here. The real confusion for most modern rigs is that they expect people to think in terms of modes or menus and making up cheat sheets that cover any possible odd-ball menu or mode the rig could get left in, is difficult. An operator can also go into a deep menu somewhere and set a setting that drives everyone else bonkers trying to figure out why the rig is misbehaving. (A good example would be turning off the ALC on an SSB rig... down in a menu somewhere, and then walking away. Will drive the next op bananas and they'll never find it if they're unfamiliar with the rig, without a menu by menu search for the problem. You might even see a frustrated operator do a soft-reset on the rig, thus blowing away all the memories and other stuff someone worked hard on.) Want some realistic training and some fun? Get some duplicates of all the radio types (even if borrowed) and set them up the same as the rigs currently being used. Hook 'em to power and dummy loads in a training room, then hand people 4 X 5 cards with their tactical callsigns, a message to pass to another stations, and tell them they have to set up a net on a particular frequency and pass the traffic. Go. Randomly assign operators to the radios in the training room, and then start a stopwatch. (GRIN) No cheat sheets, no laminated cards... all you get is the grey matter in your skull and your eyeballs to read the tiny little labels on the buttons on the rig. No matter if you've used that rig before or not. Have an instructor or two monitor over their shoulders who know that rig, to catch them and stop them if they do anything that might damage the rig or otherwise leave it badly misconfigured. As a bonus, you would quickly find out what radio is a complete pain in the ass for the operators, and you can pull it out and mandate it not be installed at any EOC. (BIGGER GRIN) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. We use Motorola GM 300's with headsets at some locations (com centers) mobile and fixed, and standard mic at others (fire departments). That way the opperator only has to turn the power on and hook up the antenna and set the channel and volume. The commercial mobile radios have enough memories to be efficient and effective for any type of disaster communications. No cheat sheet nedded other than a channel list. If you think you must have a radio you can dial around then by all means install it and a second antenna it is sometimes helpfull to be able to listen to a second frequency durring an emergency activation. We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single band radios. Get some commercial radios to use as your main radios as soon as possible and everyone will be more efficient and professional while doing their emergency communicating. tom [Original Message] From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/25/2008 6:28:57 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Yes, this is off topic, but I thought I'd tap the combined experience of the 3000 plus group members... Over and above helping set up a couple of repeaters, I've been asked to help out a local Red Cross chapter in their Emergency Comm Center. The situation is that they have a number of operators that are familiar with one model (or brand) of radio, and on zero notice may be assigned to sit an a operating position (in either the fixed or mobile comm centers) that has a totally unfamiliar radio. I've requested a list of the ham radios in both comm centers. So far I know that there are three Yaesu FT7800 radios, and a number of Kenwoods including the 231 and 241.I've asked for a full list... Before I spend several evenings prepping writeups (that will be made into laminated cards) for various radios does anybody have a cheat sheet containing steps for the Yaesu 7800 for: (card 1 face) Operating Instructions using preprogrammed memory channels: 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) Selecting memory channel 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc (flip side of card 1) Operating Instructions in VFO mode 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) Selecting receive frequency 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Selecting offset (i.e. the transmit frequency) 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Selecting CTCSS encode tone 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc (card 2) Programming the radio (loading frequencies into memories) 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) See other card for setting up radio in VFO mode Copying VFO to selected memory channel (note do not overwrite any existing memory channel) 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Thanks in advance. Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.0/1341 - Release Date: 3/24/2008 3:03 PM
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Maybe you haven't been to a test session lately. Since the FCC et al lowered the standards and did away with Morse Code entirely, the quality of the new operators is a lot lower than you might want to acknowledge. Sure, the guys who have been hams since the 1970s probably know which end of a tube to plug in, and can figure many things out. But who's gonna show up to volunteer? All the new guys with zero experience who see the event as public relations and glory. I agree that commercial rigs are a lot more foolproof, and if new repeaters come on the air that often, then someone will just have to keep up with programming them. Not really a big deal. In some areas of the country, the only bands capable of accepting new repeaters aren't covered by commercial equipment anyway, so it's a non-issue for things like 1296 MHz. Bob M. == --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general population: our operating expertise. Bob NO6B Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Sorry to add my 3 cents worth. But the best way to deal with this problem or any emergency problem is routine monthly training. The radios your key people use during an emergency should be in the same category as their own radios. We use icom 2820's through our whole ARES/RACES system with no problem. But there again, it all comes down to training and practice and teamwork. sorry for butting in. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful of repeaters are left on the air none of them are programmed into the radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. As I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program mine. We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single band radios. IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general population: our operating expertise. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful of repeaters are left on the air none of them are programmed into the radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. As I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program mine. We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single band radios. IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general population: our operating expertise. Bob NO6B
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
I agree with Ron. You'll never get them trained. They solved the problem in our County HazMat truck by installing commercial two-way radios programmed to the area repeaters. You simply dial to the proper channel and the frequency and PL is programmed in and can't be messed up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training class? You are not. Also I can train Hams on a radio right down to the nitty griddy details and 2 years later when they come in for a real operation they will swear they have never seen the radio, hi. The process is to set up the rigs so all one has to do is turn on, set to memory 1, 2 or 3 (which given on a well displayed info sheet), pick up the mike and communicate. Hams do a pretty good job of talking. If there are complex issues one needs a central one, two or three person expert on the equipment. The Military has done this for decades. A troop can go from CA to TN and operate the rigs in the TOC. The tactics will differ, but the radios are not the problem. We should strive for this simplicity in Ham emergency commo. 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Having the same rig for all would be nice. In an EOC this is possible. However, the value of Ham Radio to a community is the Hams have a supply of radios they bought, maintain and learn to use. Can one see the vast cost if say 50 Hams/people had to be supplied equipment at gov expense. Would not happen. And since we all have wants, prefer different manufacturer's rigs for many reasons one type or model rig is not going to happen. And of course this leads to the Hams coming out of the wood work in a disaster they have little knowledge with the equipment in place except for their own. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 12:19:37 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Sorry to add my 3 cents worth. But the best way to deal with this problem or any emergency problem is routine monthly training. The radios your key people use during an emergency should be in the same category as their own radios. We use icom 2820's through our whole ARES/RACES system with no problem. But there again, it all comes down to training and practice and teamwork. sorry for butting in.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful of repeaters are left on the airnone of them are programmed into the radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. As I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program mine. We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single band radios. IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general population: our operating expertise. Bob NO6B Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Yep. I've been a ham for a fairly long time (mid 70's). I usually have to dig out the manual to program my own rigs every time I want to change something. I can't imagine trying to remember how to program someone else's radio. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Having the same rig for all would be nice. In an EOC this is possible. However, the value of Ham Radio to a community is the Hams have a supply of radios they bought, maintain and learn to use. Can one see the vast cost if say 50 Hams/people had to be supplied equipment at gov expense. Would not happen. And since we all have wants, prefer different manufacturer's rigs for many reasons one type or model rig is not going to happen. And of course this leads to the Hams coming out of the wood work in a disaster they have little knowledge with the equipment in place except for their own. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 12:19:37 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Sorry to add my 3 cents worth. But the best way to deal with this problem or any emergency problem is routine monthly training. The radios your key people use during an emergency should be in the same category as their own radios. We use icom 2820's through our whole ARES/RACES system with no problem. But there again, it all comes down to training and practice and teamwork. sorry for butting in.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful of repeaters are left on the airnone of them are programmed into the radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. As I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program mine. We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single band radios. IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general population: our operating expertise. Bob NO6B Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree with Ron. You'll never get them trained. Sounds like underwater basket-weaving would be more productive. Nate WY0X
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training class? You are not. Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are willing at attend that one class. I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. --rly
Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Kris, Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I don't think so. Some don't take the time to attend meetings which is so often a few telling stories, but when really needed they show up. I enjoy how people who you've never met will pitch in during a disaster. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Kris Kirby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 03:50:47 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training class? You are not. Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are willing at attend that one class. I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. --rly Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
RE: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Pardon me if this is blunt, but are these meetings really efficient for training? Or, have they developed a reputation as a monthly nerds night out for guys who like wearing pocketed orange vests in public, and a waste of time for everyone else? If people can't or won't make room in their lives for more meetings, then find ways to train them online, during nets and wherever you can find them. The business and educational worlds do much now with teleconferencing and distance learning. If someone checks into your net often enough to stay fresh on procedures, and demonstrates the ability to handle formal traffic, how much face-to-face training is really needed? 73, Paul, AE4KR _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:03 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Kris, Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I don't think so. Some don't take the time to attend meetings which is so often a few telling stories, but when really needed they show up. I enjoy how people who you've never met will pitch in during a disaster. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Kris Kirby [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:kris%40catonic.us us Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 03:50:47 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training class? You are not. Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are willing at attend that one class. I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:kris%40catonic.us us But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. --rly Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 08:14, you wrote: Maybe you haven't been to a test session lately. Since the FCC et al lowered the standards and did away with Morse Code entirely, the quality of the new operators is a lot lower than you might want to acknowledge. Sure, the guys who have been hams since the 1970s probably know which end of a tube to plug in, and can figure many things out. But who's gonna show up to volunteer? All the new guys with zero experience who see the event as public relations and glory. W.r.t. the primary public service event I'm involved with (LA Marathon), we simply don't allow untrained individuals to volunteer; pre-event training is mandatory. I agree that commercial rigs are a lot more foolproof, and if new repeaters come on the air that often, then someone will just have to keep up with programming them. This has nothing to do with new repeaters. Out of all the repeaters serving the area, can you predict which ones will still be on the air after a disaster? If not, can you program every single one of them into your commercial radios? Around here it would amount to nearly 100 repeaters just on 2 meters. Not really a big deal. In some areas of the country, the only bands capable of accepting new repeaters aren't covered by commercial equipment anyway, so it's a non-issue for things like 1296 MHz. I guess the other areas can speak for themselves w.r.t. allowing new repeaters. Here in SoCal there are new repeaters hitting the airwaves nearly every month. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Ya, you CAN program 100 or more repeaters into most current commercial rigs, and alpha tag them as well. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:34:57 To:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... At 3/26/2008 08:14, you wrote: Maybe you haven't been to a test session lately. Since the FCC et al lowered the standards and did away with Morse Code entirely, the quality of the new operators is a lot lower than you might want to acknowledge. Sure, the guys who have been hams since the 1970s probably know which end of a tube to plug in, and can figure many things out. But who's gonna show up to volunteer? All the new guys with zero experience who see the event as public relations and glory. W.r.t. the primary public service event I'm involved with (LA Marathon), we simply don't allow untrained individuals to volunteer; pre-event training is mandatory. I agree that commercial rigs are a lot more foolproof, and if new repeaters come on the air that often, then someone will just have to keep up with programming them. This has nothing to do with new repeaters. Out of all the repeaters serving the area, can you predict which ones will still be on the air after a disaster? If not, can you program every single one of them into your commercial radios? Around here it would amount to nearly 100 repeaters just on 2 meters. Not really a big deal. In some areas of the country, the only bands capable of accepting new repeaters aren't covered by commercial equipment anyway, so it's a non-issue for things like 1296 MHz. I guess the other areas can speak for themselves w.r.t. allowing new repeaters. Here in SoCal there are new repeaters hitting the airwaves nearly every month. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 16:03, you wrote: Kris, Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I don't think so. Maybe EmComm is different, but for public service events I'd rather have a thin staff than an adequate number of clueless hams making us look bad. Bob NO6B
RE: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 16:54, you wrote: Pardon me if this is blunt, but are these meetings really efficient for training? Or, have they developed a reputation as a monthly nerds night out for guys who like wearing pocketed orange vests in public, and a waste of time for everyone else? If people can't or won't make room in their lives for more meetings, then find ways to train them online, during nets and wherever you can find them. The business and educational worlds do much now with teleconferencing and distance learning. If someone checks into your net often enough to stay fresh on procedures, and demonstrates the ability to handle formal traffic, how much face-to-face training is really needed? One of the things we do at our training meetings for the marathon is get everyone's radio programmed with the net frequencies (only HTs are used, as no one is allowed to park on the course). Kind of hard to do that over the radio or internet. One of the channels is an odd-split portable 2 meter repeater. It's a bit of a challenge to get that one but we manage to get almost everyone's radio programmed (we missed one last year, had an unknown problem with one radio this year that I think was simply a defective radio). Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
OK, that will work. Then again, many amateur transceivers have a simpleton mode that only allows volume, squelch memory channel adjustment. Might be a cheaper more flexible solution since the radio can still be easily reprogrammed by anyone who does know the radio. Bob NO6B At 3/26/2008 19:39, you wrote: Ya, you CAN program 100 or more repeaters into most current commercial rigs, and alpha tag them as well. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:34:57 To:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... At 3/26/2008 08:14, you wrote: Maybe you haven't been to a test session lately. Since the FCC et al lowered the standards and did away with Morse Code entirely, the quality of the new operators is a lot lower than you might want to acknowledge. Sure, the guys who have been hams since the 1970s probably know which end of a tube to plug in, and can figure many things out. But who's gonna show up to volunteer? All the new guys with zero experience who see the event as public relations and glory. W.r.t. the primary public service event I'm involved with (LA Marathon), we simply don't allow untrained individuals to volunteer; pre-event training is mandatory. I agree that commercial rigs are a lot more foolproof, and if new repeaters come on the air that often, then someone will just have to keep up with programming them. This has nothing to do with new repeaters. Out of all the repeaters serving the area, can you predict which ones will still be on the air after a disaster? If not, can you program every single one of them into your commercial radios? Around here it would amount to nearly 100 repeaters just on 2 meters. Not really a big deal. In some areas of the country, the only bands capable of accepting new repeaters aren't covered by commercial equipment anyway, so it's a non-issue for things like 1296 MHz. I guess the other areas can speak for themselves w.r.t. allowing new repeaters. Here in SoCal there are new repeaters hitting the airwaves nearly every month. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Mike, I would recommend all rigs be pre-set in a standard manner. That is in memories set same for various memories such as for VHF put in memory 1 the main freq with all needed. Same for rest of memories. The last thing one needs in an EOC setting is having to learn how to use a rig. Of course there will always be some kind of learning curve...just knowing where the mike gain, volume, squelch etc on rigs like HF rigs is either practiced before hand or the ops just have to learn. Again pre-program the memories. Having to program freq, offset, CTCSS, etc is normally not needed if pre-set and is a problem with new ops. Post a list of what freq does what in plane site right on the front of the station with freq memory. If main repeater and most used freq put in memory 1 in all, VHF and UHF. Memory 2 back up repeater, memory 3 simplex and then other repeaters that might be used. The one problem all emergency operations have the Hams showing up are there for the first time. So many Hams brag about the value of Ham Radio in a disaster, but few show up for regular meetings and it becomes difficult to have them trained. If you make up a 50 page book on procedures and operating standards it will be kinda useless. We just learned in my area that ARES/RACES will be put in charge of distributing radios, not just Ham rigs, in a disaster. If a group shows up with 20 radios and 20 people the gov will take some of the radios and assess where they would be needed. Well guess what, some of these are trunked rigs and we Hams have only seen on a deputy's belt or around the EOC, but never operated one. The deputy's who carries them daily do not know how to put them in emergency modes. 73, ron, n9ee/r ps Also label the antennas coming in the shack. From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/03/25 Tue PM 05:28:50 CDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Yes, this is off topic, but I thought I'd tap the combined experience of the 3000 plus group members... Over and above helping set up a couple of repeaters, I've been asked to help out a local Red Cross chapter in their Emergency Comm Center. The situation is that they have a number of operators that are familiar with one model (or brand) of radio, and on zero notice may be assigned to sit an a operating position (in either the fixed or mobile comm centers) that has a totally unfamiliar radio. I've requested a list of the ham radios in both comm centers. So far I know that there are three Yaesu FT7800 radios, and a number of Kenwoods including the 231 and 241.I've asked for a full list... Before I spend several evenings prepping writeups (that will be made into laminated cards) for various radios does anybody have a cheat sheet containing steps for the Yaesu 7800 for: (card 1 face) Operating Instructions using preprogrammed memory channels: 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) Selecting memory channel 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc (flip side of card 1) Operating Instructions in VFO mode 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) Selecting receive frequency 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Selecting offset (i.e. the transmit frequency) 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Selecting CTCSS encode tone 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc (card 2) Programming the radio (loading frequencies into memories) 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch 2. (next step) 3. (next step) 4. Select VHF or UHF by pressing the button marked. 5) (next step) 6) (next step) See other card for setting up radio in VFO mode Copying VFO to selected memory channel (note do not overwrite any existing memory channel) 1) (step 1) 2) (next step) etc Thanks in advance. Mike WA6ILQ Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
