Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread Sébastien Labbé 
The question I have is the folllowing. Suppose a user have 10k lines of 
SageMath code (notebooks, files, etc.) working well in 8.9 which obviously 
will get broken in the default 9.0 mostly because of:
 - print
 - comparisons
 - iterkeys, iteritems
 - and few other particular changes

1. What is the best workflow for such users to adapt to the 9.0, 9.1, etc. 
series?

2. How can the version 9.1 of SageMath be made so that it is really 
helpful? 

3. How can a version 9.1 or 9.0 running Python 2 can be more helpful than 
the version 8.9 running Python 2? (Let's recall that the old code was 
running in 8.9 so it does not use any of the new features added in 9.0)

Sébastien

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[sage-devel] Removing reverse graph from CGraph

2020-01-07 Thread 'Jonathan Kliem' via sage-devel 
Dear all,

currently the sparse graph backend keeps a reversed copy of the graph.

However, the SparseGraph itself does not have access to it and thus the 
reversed structure should be moved there for obvious optimizations. See 
#28904 .

As the sparse graph backend is the only backend actually using the reversed 
structure, it would make sense to remove this.

However, it is very well possible that people use the unsafe methods of 
SparseGraph directly and code will break.
E.g. in graphs/trees.py the undirected trees are generated by manually 
adding an arc in each direction.

I think, if we remove the reversed graph attribute in CGraph altogether, 
people are more likely to catch on that something changed.
But in an undirected graph it can very well happen that they add two edges 
instead of one (as they used to add one arc for each direction).

Any thoughts?

Jonathan

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread kcrisman 


On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 2:17:54 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Kliem wrote:
>
> Just a silly question. How do we know that the code remains python2 
> compatible in the first place?
>
> As far as I can see all the patchbots run python3 so it is very easy to 
> break something. 9.0 is supposed to be fully python2 compatible, but are 
> the doctests being tested for that?
>
>
I think on sage-release at least a few people are testing for this, or have 
been, at any rate.
 

> If we don't test the upcoming tickets for python2 compatibility, we have 
> de facto stopped supporting python2 already.
>
>
If we have a few people run with the python 2 config for 9.1 I think that 
is reasonable.  We don't claim the betas are py2 compatible. 

But yes, if we were to support both long-term (not that we are), one would 
want that to be the case.

I'll once again ask if someone knows how I might (easily) make a py2 binary 
for Sage 9.0 using binary-pkg.  I don't think I can necessarily use the 
configure command before running that since everything happens "inside" of 
binary-pkg.

Thanks,
- kcrisman

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread 'Jonathan Kliem' via sage-devel 
Just a silly question. How do we know that the code remains python2 
compatible in the first place?

As far as I can see all the patchbots run python3 so it is very easy to 
break something. 9.0 is supposed to be fully python2 compatible, but are 
the doctests being tested for that?

If we don't test the upcoming tickets for python2 compatibility, we have de 
facto stopped supporting python2 already.

Jonathan

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 06:04 William,  wrote:

> This is just some clarification and remarks related to what Karl wrote,
> and not really super relevant to this thread...
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:17:16 AM UTC-8, kcrisman wrote:
>>
>> Because a lot of Sage users are also developers (presumably a higher
>> proportion than for Python or Mathematica!), a lot of Sage work has had
>> developers in mind.  However, I think it is pretty important to pay
>> attention to the users, the vast majority of whom we don't ever hear from,
>> since they aren't paying for Sage.
>>
>> As an example, if there were a coordinated strategy that a company would
>> make, I can't imagine that there wouldn't have been two versions of Sage
>> cell server going at once - or even an addition (temporary) to the
>> drop-down menu saying "Sage with Python 2", for transitioning.
>>
>
> For CoCalc (run by a company), we have many different versions of Sage
> installed for projects to use.  For Jupyter  notebooks, users just
> explicitly select whatever version they want (via kernel selection), and it
> stays selected unless they change it.  For the sage command line, we have a
> "sage_select" command to set the default, or the user can type
> "sage-[version]" to get a specific version.
>
> /ext/bin/sage_select 
> Available versions: develop, 8.2, 8.3, 8.4, 8.5, 8.6, 8.7, 8.8, 8.9, 9.0
>

you could add something like 9.0_py2, as 9.0 is still meant to be fully
functional with Python 2.

>
> For Sage worksheets, they just use whatever is "sage" in the PATH, which
> is a problem since there's a TON of python2 content used on cocalc, much
> made by paying customers (with thousands of students), so we can't break
> it.  We've been discussing how to move forward, slowly but surely, here
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/4212/. It's a confusing and
> tricky problem because Sage worksheets don't encode the version of Sage
> they use (dumb design decision by me) -- Jupyter is much better in this
> regard.   In any case, we don't have the luxury of break things for our
> paying customers.
>
>
>> I don't know if I want to ask the very capable, but very busy, Andrey N.
>> to do that!  But once again, sage-devel will never know, because the users
>> didn't pay anything,
>>
>
> Users (at least UTMOST) does sometimes pay a little bit to cover some
> hosting (thanks NSF!), but it doesn't cover what Andrey does, and I fully
> support his decision.  I wish I had the money to pay to support maintenance
> of other versions of the Sage cell server, but I don't.
>
> William
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 2:16 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>
> Le mardi 7 janvier 2020 13:25:04 UTC+1, E. Madison Bray a écrit :
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:30 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>> >
>> > On the other hand, for the end user the major backwards-incompatibility 
>> > change already happened: a Python 2-only piece of code will break 
>> > immediately in any Sage 9.0 binary. Can we really say to the end user: "to 
>> > solve your issue, download SageMath sources and compile them with 
>> > ./configure --with-python=2" ?
>> > As for developers, the Python 3 switch has been discussed for something 
>> > like 2 years, so what would be the point to extend that (effective) 
>> > deprecation period? (maybe I am missing something here)
>>
>> For this very reason I think there ought to be Python 2 binary
>> releases for 9.0 as well.  I'm building both for Windows, but I'm not
>> in control of the others.
>
>
> One may argue that there are already available Python 2 binaries: the 8.9 
> binaries.
> Is it worth to spend time and energy to build new Python 2 binaries?
> Wouldn't a message like "if you insist in running Python 2-only code, please 
> use the 8.9 binaries" be sufficient?

If that were the case, that should have been communicated clearly
during the 8.9 release, and it wasn't (as it is we don't communicate
changes between versions clearly enough, but that would be a major
omission).

> IMHO, most end users should now that Python 2 is dead (the younger ones even 
> do not know that such a thing had existed) and that "print bla" should be 
> changed to "print(bla)".

Most users I've encountered (especially new users) don't even realize
Sage is written in Python, and don't know anything about Python 2 vs
Python 3.  Fortunately, as you say, for Sage the most major
user-visible change is just print statements and we've already been
warning about that for a while.  But existing users' code can break in
other new an exciting ways (e.g. map).

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread Eric Gourgoulhon 


Le mardi 7 janvier 2020 14:35:45 UTC+1, Dima Pasechnik a écrit :
>
> Why 8.9? One can build 9.0 with python2 just fine. 
>
> Yes I know, but I was speaking about the time and energy to actually build 
those and distribute them. IMHO, there are more pressing issues, like the 
handling of ipython7 and Python 3.8 mentioned in Frédéric's original 
message. 
That being said, I am not involved in the preparation of Sage binaries and 
your voice or that of Erik is more important than mine. 

Eric. 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
Why 8.9? One can build 9.0 with python2 just fine.

On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 1:16 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>
> Le mardi 7 janvier 2020 13:25:04 UTC+1, E. Madison Bray a écrit :
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:30 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>> >
>> > On the other hand, for the end user the major backwards-incompatibility 
>> > change already happened: a Python 2-only piece of code will break 
>> > immediately in any Sage 9.0 binary. Can we really say to the end user: "to 
>> > solve your issue, download SageMath sources and compile them with 
>> > ./configure --with-python=2" ?
>> > As for developers, the Python 3 switch has been discussed for something 
>> > like 2 years, so what would be the point to extend that (effective) 
>> > deprecation period? (maybe I am missing something here)
>>
>> For this very reason I think there ought to be Python 2 binary
>> releases for 9.0 as well.  I'm building both for Windows, but I'm not
>> in control of the others.
>
>
> One may argue that there are already available Python 2 binaries: the 8.9 
> binaries.
> Is it worth to spend time and energy to build new Python 2 binaries?
> Wouldn't a message like "if you insist in running Python 2-only code, please 
> use the 8.9 binaries" be sufficient?
> IMHO, most end users should now that Python 2 is dead (the younger ones even 
> do not know that such a thing had existed) and that "print bla" should be 
> changed to "print(bla)".
>
> Eric.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread Eric Gourgoulhon 
Le mardi 7 janvier 2020 13:25:04 UTC+1, E. Madison Bray a écrit :
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:30 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  > wrote: 
> > 
> > On the other hand, for the end user the major backwards-incompatibility 
> change already happened: a Python 2-only piece of code will break 
> immediately in any Sage 9.0 binary. Can we really say to the end user: "to 
> solve your issue, download SageMath sources and compile them with 
> ./configure --with-python=2" ? 
> > As for developers, the Python 3 switch has been discussed for something 
> like 2 years, so what would be the point to extend that (effective) 
> deprecation period? (maybe I am missing something here) 
>
> For this very reason I think there ought to be Python 2 binary 
> releases for 9.0 as well.  I'm building both for Windows, but I'm not 
> in control of the others. 
>

One may argue that there are already available Python 2 binaries: the 8.9 
binaries. 
Is it worth to spend time and energy to build new Python 2 binaries?
Wouldn't a message like "if you insist in running Python 2-only code, 
please use the 8.9 binaries" be sufficient?
IMHO, most end users should now that Python 2 is dead (the younger ones 
even do not know that such a thing had existed) and that "print bla" should 
be changed to "print(bla)". 

Eric. 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread kcrisman 
William, thanks for this relevant (if not directly, as you say) point of 
view.

For CoCalc (run by a company), we have many different versions of Sage 
> installed for projects to use.  For Jupyter  notebooks, users just 
> explicitly select whatever version they want (via kernel selection), and it 
> stays selected unless they change it.  For the sage command line, we have a 
> "sage_select" command to set the default, or the user can type 
> "sage-[version]" to get a specific version.
>
> /ext/bin/sage_select 
> Available versions: develop, 8.2, 8.3, 8.4, 8.5, 8.6, 8.7, 8.8, 8.9, 9.0
>
> For Sage worksheets, they just use whatever is "sage" in the PATH, which 
> is a problem since there's a TON of python2 content used on cocalc, much 
> made by paying customers (with thousands of students), so we can't break 
> it.  We've been discussing how to move forward, slowly but surely, here 
> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/4212/. It's a confusing and 
> tricky problem because Sage worksheets don't encode the version of Sage 
> they use (dumb design decision by me) -- Jupyter is much better in this 
> regard.   In any case, we don't have the luxury of break things for our 
> paying customers.
>

Exactly.  By the way, even 8.2 - impressive!
 

>  
>
>> I don't know if I want to ask the very capable, but very busy, Andrey N. 
>> to do that!  But once again, sage-devel will never know, because the users 
>> didn't pay anything, 
>>
>
> Users (at least UTMOST) does sometimes pay a little bit to cover some 
> hosting (thanks NSF!), but it doesn't cover what Andrey does, and I fully 
> support his decision. 
>

Of course, and I hope that was clear in what I said.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 12:06 AM rjf  wrote:
>
> just curious when this ends.  Python 4 awaits.

It's already ended.  Python 4 is not going to be the major
backwards-compatibility breaker that Python 3 was.  It's just going to
be the next release after 3.9, at which point we can also hopefully
finally stop talking about "Python 3" and just call it "Python" again.
This is similar to how Jinja2 is called Jinja2 because it was
completely incompatible with Jinja 1.x and so needed a "different
name" as it were.  But now that Jinja2 is long-since the de facto
Jinja, Jinja 3.0 will just be referred to as "Jinja" again; no more
Jinja2.

In the more extreme end of things Perl 6 has finally stopped being
"Perl" altogether and is called Raku now.  Fortunately even Python 3
is not as big a "disaster" from a backwards-incompatibility
perspective that it hasn't necessitated a completely new name for the
language; the "Python 3" distinction has only been relevant in the
context of porting from Python 2 and now that that's mostly done in
most of the community we can finally start to drop it soon...

> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 10:47:29 AM UTC-8, Nils Bruin wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 10:30:23 AM UTC-8, Eric Gourgoulhon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, for the end user the major backwards-incompatibility 
>>> change already happened: a Python 2-only piece of code will break 
>>> immediately in any Sage 9.0 binary. Can we really say to the end user: "to 
>>> solve your issue, download SageMath sources and compile them with 
>>> ./configure --with-python=2" ?
>>
>>
>> That's a different issue. If we can't say that, the appropriate fix is to 
>> host py2 binaries as well (but hide them a little bit).
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:30 PM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>
> Le lundi 6 janvier 2020 14:21:56 UTC+1, E. Madison Bray a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I agree with Nils.  There should be at least a one release deprecation
>> period.  Also, while I don't think we use any kind of real semantic
>> versioning, I think we should name a Python 3-only release 10.0 as
>> it's a very major backwards-incompatibility change.
>>
>
> On the other hand, for the end user the major backwards-incompatibility 
> change already happened: a Python 2-only piece of code will break immediately 
> in any Sage 9.0 binary. Can we really say to the end user: "to solve your 
> issue, download SageMath sources and compile them with ./configure 
> --with-python=2" ?
> As for developers, the Python 3 switch has been discussed for something like 
> 2 years, so what would be the point to extend that (effective) deprecation 
> period? (maybe I am missing something here)

For this very reason I think there ought to be Python 2 binary
releases for 9.0 as well.  I'm building both for Windows, but I'm not
in control of the others.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: drop python2 compatibility in 9.1 ?

2020-01-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:23 PM Travis Scrimshaw  wrote:
>
> I agree that the Python3 only version of Sage should be called 10.0 given the 
> large backwards incompatible changes that result from the Python3 change. 
> Furthermore, I also concur that we should release a version 9.1 (on an 
> accelerated schedule) that is our official deprecation version telling people 
> they will need to adapt their code in the next version.

This would be the right thing to do from a software maintenance
standpoint and from a user-facing standpoint.  The vast majority of
Sage users are NOT developers and this community has too much a habit
in general of moving fast and breaking things for the short-term
benefit of power-users/developers (who in general are more able to run
their own builds as needed).

As it is I think we rushed too fast into a Python 3 default release
but in that case I think it was necessary and unavoidable.  Now that
that's out (grace à Frédéric) we can take a minute to reflect on how
that transition goes for users and make the first Python 3-only
release even stronger.

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Re: [sage-devel] Different behavior in normal usage and when building the doc (decimal separator / tachyon syntax error)

2020-01-07 Thread dimpase 
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Jean-Florent Raymond wrote:
> 
> I have been investigating a bug that happened when I tried to build the
> documentation of sage 9.0 on a new machine.
> It seems to be the same as described in
> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/5jajeJiJNiY/discussion
> (the thread describes a way to circumvent it)
> 
> In a few words: in order to produce 3d pictures for the documentation,
> the script that builds the documentation calls tachyon (because jmol is
> not available) and the tachyon call results in a syntax error. Strangely
> I have not been able to reproduce this error except when building the
> documentation.
> The way it works is that a string describing the 3d scene is written to
> a temporary file, which is then read by tachyon. Investigating further I
> found that some decimal numbers are printed in this file with commas as
> decimal separator when building the doc and with dots when running
> sage... I highly suspect this to be the reason of the syntax error
> raised by tachyon. Below is an example of lines from the two temporary
> files corresponding to the same call, the first in normal sage and the
> second one obtained when building the doc.
> 
> TRI V0 0.641519 0.179487 0.025641 V1 0.641026 0.18109 -0.025641 V2
> 0.641519 0.179487 -0.025641
> TRI V0 0,641519 0,179487 0,025641 V1 0,641026 0,18109 -0,025641 V2
> 0,641519 0,179487 -0,025641
> 
> What I cannot explain is why these lines have been printed differently
> (i.e. commas instead of dots). They have been printed by the function
> format_tachyon_triangle from src/sage/plot/plot3d/index_face_set.pyx,
> whose code is the following (comment is not mine):
> 
> cdef inline format_tachyon_triangle(point_c P, point_c Q, point_c R):
> cdef char ss[250]
> # PyBytes_FromFormat doesn't do floats?
> cdef Py_ssize_t r = sprintf_9d(ss,
>"TRI V0 %g %g %g V1 %g %g %g V2 %g %g
> %g",
>P.x, P.y, P.z,
>Q.x, Q.y, Q.z,
>R.x, R.y, R.z )
> return bytes_to_str(PyBytes_FromStringAndSize(ss, r))
> 
> Does anyone here has an idea why this function behaves differently
> depending on whether it is called in sage or when building the doc?

Are you on locale that uses commas instead of dots in representing
floating precision numbers?
If so, it could be that writing out these files happens under the
control of your locale...

Just a wild guess, of course.
Dima


> 
> Best,
> Jean-Florent.
> 
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