Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Dr. David Kirkby david.kir...@onetel.net wrote: Tom Boothby wrote: Context is important. The GPL doesn't say that every GPL'd interactive program must print a banner. It says that if such a banner is printed by a current GPL'd programs, then *if you distribute a modified copy*, that copy must also print the banner. I would have thought many of the programs in Sage are modified in some way. I'm not convinced that this applies here. Sage is a software distribution, like an OS. When I log into my Linux system via the GUI, I get no warning about lack of warranty -- though Ubuntu is certainly an interactive program which includes modified GPL'd programs which display such banners. The reason I don't think that this applies here is that we allow the user to run the modified versions of these various programs, and we haven't modified them to squelch their banners. Though Sage *ships* modified versions, it isn't itself a modified version of a GPL'd program that prints such a banner. That said, I agree with Tim -- we should probably ask the FSF about this. The most ordinary manner of running Sage isn't running a modified interactive GPL'd program. Looks to me like the closest we've got is iPython, which is BSD'd, so we don't need to print its banner. And the notebook is its own project, so it doesn't have to inherit anybody's banner either. But would you not agree the notebook should state its GPL ? I would not agree that we're somehow obliged to do so -- making this a feature request, not a bug. Given my druthers, the notebook would be BSD licensed -- in which case, it certainly should not state that it's GPL'd. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
Tom Boothby wrote: Context is important. The GPL doesn't say that every GPL'd interactive program must print a banner. It says that if such a banner is printed by a current GPL'd programs, then *if you distribute a modified copy*, that copy must also print the banner. Personally, I would have thought it wise to follow the recommended route given in the GPL, in the section on how to apply the GPL to your own program. That includes adding the statement about ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY and a copyright statement. It could possibly be useful if a legal battle resulted some individual or some company lost money as a result of an incorrect computation done in Sage. This could be especially so if they used an online version, where they don't even get to see the source. I very much doubt it would be me personally sued, so I'll leave it there. Dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
From reading the GPL, it would appear that Sage should print more information than it currently does when it starts. Specifically 1) State the program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY when it starts up in command line mode 2) Should display the fact the program is GPL if used in a browser, and indicate how the user can see a full copy of the license. Currently when run in a browser, there is no information about the GPL at all. Section 2 says: --- c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) --- After the end of the license, we see: END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programsthere is a section on how to apply the GPL to your own programs. It suggests: If the program is interactive, make it output a short notice like this when it starts in an interactive mode: Gnomovision version 69, Copyright (C) year name of author Gnomovision comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `show w'. This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; type `show c' for details. The hypothetical commands `show w' and `show c' should show the appropriate parts of the General Public License. - It's a minor point, but I believe the banner should be a bit longer and display this information. If run from a browser, which is clearly a normal way of using Sage, there is no statement at all that the program is GPL at the minute. Looking at http://t2nb.math.washington.edu:8000/ I can see * No indication whatsoever the program is GPL * No information it is free * No information about how to see the license. For all an end-user knows, this could be a propriety program. Hence I believe we need to do two things. 1) Add the notice about ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY when the program starts in command line. 2) Display a notice on the browser window that the program is GPL, say it has no warranty etc, then say To see the full terms of the license, type licence() at the Sage prompt Comments? Dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
2) Display a notice on the browser window that the program is GPL, say it has no warranty etc, then say To see the full terms of the license, type licence() at the Sage prompt Isn't this enough? -- | Sage Version 4.1.1, Release Date: 2009-08-14 | | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.| -- Nick -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
Nick Alexander wrote: 2) Display a notice on the browser window that the program is GPL, say it has no warranty etc, then say To see the full terms of the license, type licence() at the Sage prompt Isn't this enough? -- | Sage Version 4.1.1, Release Date: 2009-08-14 | | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.| -- Nick The license says: -- ... when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. -- I don't see any copyright notice, statement there is no warranty, or that the user may distribute the program. It does tell them how to view the license. In the section about how to apply this to your programs it says: If the program is interactive, make it output a short notice like this when it starts in an interactive mode: Gnomovision version 69, Copyright (C) year name of author Gnomovision comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `show w'. This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; type `show c' for details. For the notebook, there is nothing at all about the GPL currently. Dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
On Feb 9, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: From reading the GPL, it would appear that Sage should print more information than it currently does when it starts. Specifically 1) State the program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY when it starts up in command line mode 2) Should display the fact the program is GPL if used in a browser, and indicate how the user can see a full copy of the license. Currently when run in a browser, there is no information about the GPL at all. Section 2 says: --- c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) --- The way I read this is that if you take a program that used to print out the license information, you're not allowed to omit such information in a modified version. The rest is just suggestions. I strongly dislike huge banners (especially ones full of all caps, legalese, and political statements) and I think the current banner is good enough--license() gives you the whole thing. If run from a browser, which is clearly a normal way of using Sage, there is no statement at all that the program is GPL at the minute. Looking at http://t2nb.math.washington.edu:8000/ I can see * No indication whatsoever the program is GPL * No information it is free * No information about how to see the license. For all an end-user knows, this could be a propriety program. The splash screen does have a big blub about Open Source. I agree there should be something, I personally think that a line Sage is released under the [http://localhost:8000/GPL.txt | GPL]. would be good enough. - Robert -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
What's the right way to post a change to SAGE_ROOT/COPYING.txt (which is what is displayed when you run license(), as I just discovered)? It mentions mwrank which is obsolete (we now use eclib which is strictly larger), and the web address it gives for that is 2.5 years out of date. I can provide suitable replacement text. Idea: For all spkgs, the relevant block could be stored inside the spkg in its own COPYING.txt. Then these could somehow be concatenated on building. Well, maybe. John On 9 February 2010 18:35, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote: On Feb 9, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: From reading the GPL, it would appear that Sage should print more information than it currently does when it starts. Specifically 1) State the program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY when it starts up in command line mode 2) Should display the fact the program is GPL if used in a browser, and indicate how the user can see a full copy of the license. Currently when run in a browser, there is no information about the GPL at all. Section 2 says: --- c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) --- The way I read this is that if you take a program that used to print out the license information, you're not allowed to omit such information in a modified version. The rest is just suggestions. I strongly dislike huge banners (especially ones full of all caps, legalese, and political statements) and I think the current banner is good enough--license() gives you the whole thing. If run from a browser, which is clearly a normal way of using Sage, there is no statement at all that the program is GPL at the minute. Looking at http://t2nb.math.washington.edu:8000/ I can see * No indication whatsoever the program is GPL * No information it is free * No information about how to see the license. For all an end-user knows, this could be a propriety program. The splash screen does have a big blub about Open Source. I agree there should be something, I personally think that a line Sage is released under the [http://localhost:8000/GPL.txt | GPL]. would be good enough. - Robert -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote: On Feb 9, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: From reading the GPL, it would appear that Sage should print more information than it currently does when it starts. Specifically 1) State the program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY when it starts up in command line mode 2) Should display the fact the program is GPL if used in a browser, and indicate how the user can see a full copy of the license. Currently when run in a browser, there is no information about the GPL at all. Section 2 says: --- c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) --- The way I read this is that if you take a program that used to print out the license information, you're not allowed to omit such information in a modified version. The rest is just suggestions. I strongly dislike huge banners (especially ones full of all caps, legalese, and political statements) and I think the current banner is good enough--license() gives you the whole thing. If run from a browser, which is clearly a normal way of using Sage, there is no statement at all that the program is GPL at the minute. Looking at http://t2nb.math.washington.edu:8000/ I can see * No indication whatsoever the program is GPL * No information it is free * No information about how to see the license. For all an end-user knows, this could be a propriety program. The splash screen does have a big blub about Open Source. I agree there should be something, I personally think that a line Sage is released under the [http://localhost:8000/GPL.txt | GPL]. would be good enough. - Robert One of my favorite GPL'd programs is called bash. Let's see what it does for a banner; wst...@ubuntu:~/sage/spkg/standard$ bash wst...@ubuntu:~$ exit There is no banner. William -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
Context is important. The GPL doesn't say that every GPL'd interactive program must print a banner. It says that if such a banner is printed by a current GPL'd programs, then *if you distribute a modified copy*, that copy must also print the banner. The most ordinary manner of running Sage isn't running a modified interactive GPL'd program. Looks to me like the closest we've got is iPython, which is BSD'd, so we don't need to print its banner. And the notebook is its own project, so it doesn't have to inherit anybody's banner either. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
William Stein wrote: One of my favorite GPL'd programs is called bash. Let's see what it does for a banner; wst...@ubuntu:~/sage/spkg/standard$ bash wst...@ubuntu:~$ exit There is no banner. William I think that case would be covered by the (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) Personally I find it odd that the notebook has nothing at all to indicate it is GPL - not even a hint as to a command to display the license. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
Tom Boothby wrote: Context is important. The GPL doesn't say that every GPL'd interactive program must print a banner. It says that if such a banner is printed by a current GPL'd programs, then *if you distribute a modified copy*, that copy must also print the banner. I would have thought many of the programs in Sage are modified in some way. The most ordinary manner of running Sage isn't running a modified interactive GPL'd program. Looks to me like the closest we've got is iPython, which is BSD'd, so we don't need to print its banner. And the notebook is its own project, so it doesn't have to inherit anybody's banner either. But would you not agree the notebook should state its GPL ? dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 at 11:54PM +, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: Personally I find it odd that the notebook has nothing at all to indicate it is GPL - not even a hint as to a command to display the license. I do too. It's trivial to add something to the front page of the notebook -- something in the Use an open source alternative paragraph, and when logged in, perhaps we could add a link to the Help page about the copying conditions. For example, Firefox has a link to licensing in Help - About, and so does Gnome Terminal. Including links or information about licensing and credits in some kind of Help - About Sage would be in line with other open source applications. Dan -- --- Dan Drake - http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake --- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [sage-devel] GPL issues again - trivial ones this time !!!
Try sending a question to FSF. I'm sure they'd give you an authoritative answer. Stallman has answered every question I ever sent him. Tim Daly Tom Boothby wrote: Context is important. The GPL doesn't say that every GPL'd interactive program must print a banner. It says that if such a banner is printed by a current GPL'd programs, then *if you distribute a modified copy*, that copy must also print the banner. The most ordinary manner of running Sage isn't running a modified interactive GPL'd program. Looks to me like the closest we've got is iPython, which is BSD'd, so we don't need to print its banner. And the notebook is its own project, so it doesn't have to inherit anybody's banner either. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
