[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-27 Thread William Stein

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Dr. David
Kirkbydavid.kir...@onetel.net wrote:

 William Stein wrote:

 Cheers,
      Simon
 Unix is tricky, as Solaris works, on some machines, but is not fully
 supported. (To be precise about this, one needs a definition of 'support').

 Sage works on OS X, and OS X has been officially certified to be UNIX.

 There is a separate column for OS X, so I assume the 'Unix' bit means
 some unix other than OS X  -i.e. Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, tru64, SCO, etc.
 I've not looked around to find out exactly what is meant there I must
 admit.

I think they must have been referring to one of these UNIX boxes that
were in the hallway at the Sage Days 16 conference in Barcelona:

http://wstein.org/pics/new/20090627-barcelona_sage_days16/.html/IMG_2796.html

Unfortunately, we couldn't get Sage to run on it...

William


 http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification.ars

 I think on Wikipedia, the 'ports' sections indicates if it runs
 natively, so Windows should remain a 'no'. There is no harm though it
 adding a footnote and a link to some details about using VMware.

 Sounds good.

 William




 




-- 
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-26 Thread Skylar Saveland

 * A collection of databases of mathematical, scientific, and
 socio-economic information (see below)

Man, that would be neat to have data like that at your fingertips with
a sage interface and R and Python backing you up.  (and not having to
work to hard to have to configure the interface to the data.
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-26 Thread Dr. David Kirkby

Skylar Saveland wrote:
 * A collection of databases of mathematical, scientific, and
 socio-economic information (see below)
 
 Man, that would be neat to have data like that at your fingertips with
 a sage interface and R and Python backing you up.  (and not having to
 work to hard to have to configure the interface to the data.
What WRI have done is to put all the data in a format callable from 
Mathematica. It is very convenient, but you have no idea of the source 
of the data. Hence I'd only use it for a bit of 'fun'. I tried it a few 
times and found it to be very incomplete.

Most scientists would find the data themselves, check out the source, 
then read the data. You are not going to find too many data files having 
the same format, so you are still going to need to configure an 
interface to the data.

Mathematica does not even use the internationally agreed value for the 
charge on an electron - I doubt I'd trust the source of other data they 
have.


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Simon King

Hi

On Jun 24, 8:33 pm, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 A related page to look at would 
 behttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer_algebra_systems

It is stated on that page that Sage does not support Unix. Is that
really the case?

Also it is stated that it does not support Windows. Well, not
natively, but it does via vmware.

Cheers,
 Simon

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Jason Grout

William Stein wrote:

 
 * Tools for image processing [5]
 
 yes, in pylab, plus also there is the Python Imagining Library.  (PIL)
 

Also, don't forget openCV (http://code.google.com/p/ctypes-opencv/, for 
example).  There are also a few other references to using openCV with 
numpy.  Not that I've ever used it, though...

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Dr. David Kirkby

Simon King wrote:
 Hi
 
 On Jun 24, 8:33 pm, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 A related page to look at would 
 behttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer_algebra_systems

I updated that somewhat, expanded the description similar to that for 
Mathematica. I removed the 'Boolean Computation' which Mathematica does, 
and added the fact it's GUI was web based.

I spent some time yesterday adding Sage to these pages, as it did not 
even exist on them. In the case of the stats package, I just selected 
'yes' to anything R had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_numerical_analysis_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_statistical_packages

 It is stated on that page that Sage does not support Unix. Is that
 really the case?
 
 Also it is stated that it does not support Windows. Well, not
 natively, but it does via vmware.
 
 Cheers,
  Simon

Unix is tricky, as Solaris works, on some machines, but is not fully 
supported. (To be precise about this, one needs a definition of 'support').

I think on Wikipedia, the 'ports' sections indicates if it runs 
natively, so Windows should remain a 'no'. There is no harm though it 
adding a footnote and a link to some details about using VMware.


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread William Stein

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Dr. David
Kirkbydavid.kir...@onetel.net wrote:

 Simon King wrote:
 Hi

 On Jun 24, 8:33 pm, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 A related page to look at would 
 behttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer_algebra_systems

 I updated that somewhat, expanded the description similar to that for
 Mathematica. I removed the 'Boolean Computation' which Mathematica does,
 and added the fact it's GUI was web based.

 I spent some time yesterday adding Sage to these pages, as it did not
 even exist on them. In the case of the stats package, I just selected
 'yes' to anything R had.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_numerical_analysis_software
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_statistical_packages

 It is stated on that page that Sage does not support Unix. Is that
 really the case?

 Also it is stated that it does not support Windows. Well, not
 natively, but it does via vmware.

 Cheers,
      Simon

 Unix is tricky, as Solaris works, on some machines, but is not fully
 supported. (To be precise about this, one needs a definition of 'support').

Sage works on OS X, and OS X has been officially certified to be UNIX.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification.ars

 I think on Wikipedia, the 'ports' sections indicates if it runs
 natively, so Windows should remain a 'no'. There is no harm though it
 adding a footnote and a link to some details about using VMware.

Sounds good.

William

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Dr. David Kirkby

William Stein wrote:

 Cheers,
  Simon
 Unix is tricky, as Solaris works, on some machines, but is not fully
 supported. (To be precise about this, one needs a definition of 'support').
 
 Sage works on OS X, and OS X has been officially certified to be UNIX.

There is a separate column for OS X, so I assume the 'Unix' bit means 
some unix other than OS X  -i.e. Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, tru64, SCO, etc. 
I've not looked around to find out exactly what is meant there I must 
admit.

 http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification.ars
 
 I think on Wikipedia, the 'ports' sections indicates if it runs
 natively, so Windows should remain a 'no'. There is no harm though it
 adding a footnote and a link to some details about using VMware.
 
 Sounds good.
 
 William




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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Utpal Sarkar

The link to the sage tutorial from the knol article seems to be broken


On Jun 24, 7:19 pm, Harald Schilly harald.schi...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Jun 24, 6:16 pm, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu
 wrote:

  I'll second this. Wikipedia is the highest source of traffic for  
  Cython after google and people typing in cython.org directly (despite  
  an only average page)--I wouldn't be surprised if it accounts for a  
  significant proportion of potential and actual sage hits as well.

 I can give you some numbers, but in general you are right. Don't
 forget, there are also other wikipedia language editions that give a
 fair amount of traffic, especially french.

 Besides wikipedia, there is also knol, google's version of an
 wikipedia for experts. This means, that an article is always
 associated with an author and there are no independent topics. Last
 time when I improved Sage's wikipedia page, I also started 
 this:http://knol.google.com/k/harald-schilly/sage
 It's very general, but improvements are welcome. Anybody is invited to
 suggest some improvements or more directly, I can also add others
 (with a google account) to become editors.

 H

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-25 Thread Harald Schilly



On Jun 25, 10:39 pm, Utpal Sarkar doe...@gmail.com wrote:
 The link to the sage tutorial from the knol article seems to be broken


thx, fixed.
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread William Stein

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:15 AM, Dr. David
Kirkbydavid.kir...@onetel.net wrote:

 I think we should really make some effort to improve our page on Wikipedia.

 Comparing the Sage and Mathematica pages on Wikipedia shows the
 Mathematica one is much nicer. Would it not be sensible to put some
 effort into promoting Sage there? If it looks like the program is more
 complete, one has a greater chance of getting people using it and
 attracting more developers.

 As you know, I'm interested in porting sage to Solaris, as I'm a Solaris
 user and want to use it there. Hence I'm not a Sage user. Looking on the
 Mathematica Wikipedia entry, there is one person who definitely (and
 admits) he works for WRI and another I suspect does, as his edits to the
  Mathematica page always promote it, and his edits to the Sage page
 always demotes it. (When I asked, he declines to answer).

 What of the following could we say Sage supports? Can someone give me a
 yes/no or brief comment by each of these.

 --
 Some features of Mathematica include:

     * Libraries of elementary and special mathematical functions

yes

     * 2D and 3D data and function visualization tools

yes

     * Matrix and data manipulation tools including support for sparse
 arrays

yes

     * Solvers for systems of equations, ODEs, PDEs, DAEs, DDEs and
 recurrence relations

no clue

     * Numeric and symbolic tools for discrete and continuous calculus

yes.  I don't know what discrete calculus means.

     * Multivariate statistics libraries

yes (R and scipy)

     * Constrained and unconstrained local and global optimization

no clue

     * A programming language supporting procedural, functional and
 object oriented constructs

Yes -- python.

     * A toolkit for adding user interfaces to calculations and applications

yes -- @interact

     * Tools for image processing [5]

yes, in pylab, plus also there is the Python Imagining Library.  (PIL)

     * Tools for visualizing and analysing graphs

yes

     * Data mining tools such as cluster analysis, sequence alignment
 and pattern matching

maybe.  not sure.

     * Libraries of number theory functions

yes.

     * Continuous and discrete integral transforms

no clue

     * Import and export filters for data, images, video, sound, CAD,
 GIS, document and biomedical formats

don't know.  probably python has most of that.

     * A collection of databases of mathematical, scientific, and
 socio-economic information (see below)

nope, and little interest since people just write pythons scripts to
import such data when they need it...

     * Support for complex number, arbitrary precision and symbolic
 computation for all functions

all functions?  yeah right.

     * Notebook interface for review and re-use of previous inputs and
 outputs including graphics and text annotations

yes

     * Technical word processing including formula editing and automated
 report generating

yes, except I don't know what automated report generating.

     * Tools for connecting to SQL, Java, .NET, C++, FORTRAN and http
 based systems

Yes.

 -- William

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread kcrisman

      * Solvers for systems of equations, ODEs, PDEs, DAEs, DDEs and
  recurrence relations

 no clue


perhaps desolve and friends?

      * Numeric and symbolic tools for discrete and continuous calculus

 yes.  I don't know what discrete calculus means.

Probably this means difference equations.

      * Constrained and unconstrained local and global optimization

 no clue

would that include cvxopt? other similar tools?

      * Continuous and discrete integral transforms

 no clue


maybe this means Fourier, Laplace, Mellin (cont.) and discrete Fourier
(disc.)?

HIH,
- kcrisman
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread John Cremona

I think Sage does have at least one mathematical database (in fact
more than one...) !

John

2009/6/24 kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com:

  * Solvers for systems of equations, ODEs, PDEs, DAEs, DDEs and
  recurrence relations

 no clue


 perhaps desolve and friends?

  * Numeric and symbolic tools for discrete and continuous calculus

 yes.  I don't know what discrete calculus means.

 Probably this means difference equations.

  * Constrained and unconstrained local and global optimization

 no clue

 would that include cvxopt? other similar tools?

  * Continuous and discrete integral transforms

 no clue


 maybe this means Fourier, Laplace, Mellin (cont.) and discrete Fourier
 (disc.)?

 HIH,
 - kcrisman
 


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread Robert Bradshaw

On Jun 23, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

 I think we should really make some effort to improve our page on  
 Wikipedia.

I'll second this. Wikipedia is the highest source of traffic for  
Cython after google and people typing in cython.org directly (despite  
an only average page)--I wouldn't be surprised if it accounts for a  
significant proportion of potential and actual sage hits as well.


 Comparing the Sage and Mathematica pages on Wikipedia shows the
 Mathematica one is much nicer. Would it not be sensible to put some
 effort into promoting Sage there? If it looks like the program is more
 complete, one has a greater chance of getting people using it and
 attracting more developers.

 As you know, I'm interested in porting sage to Solaris, as I'm a  
 Solaris
 user and want to use it there. Hence I'm not a Sage user. Looking  
 on the
 Mathematica Wikipedia entry, there is one person who definitely (and
 admits) he works for WRI and another I suspect does, as his edits  
 to the
   Mathematica page always promote it, and his edits to the Sage page
 always demotes it. (When I asked, he declines to answer).

 What of the following could we say Sage supports? Can someone give  
 me a
 yes/no or brief comment by each of these.

 --
 Some features of Mathematica include:

  * Libraries of elementary and special mathematical functions
  * 2D and 3D data and function visualization tools
  * Matrix and data manipulation tools including support for sparse
 arrays
  * Solvers for systems of equations, ODEs, PDEs, DAEs, DDEs and
 recurrence relations
  * Numeric and symbolic tools for discrete and continuous calculus
  * Multivariate statistics libraries
  * Constrained and unconstrained local and global optimization
  * A programming language supporting procedural, functional and
 object oriented constructs
  * A toolkit for adding user interfaces to calculations and  
 applications
  * Tools for image processing [5]
  * Tools for visualizing and analysing graphs
  * Data mining tools such as cluster analysis, sequence alignment
 and pattern matching
  * Libraries of number theory functions
  * Continuous and discrete integral transforms
  * Import and export filters for data, images, video, sound, CAD,
 GIS, document and biomedical formats
  * A collection of databases of mathematical, scientific, and
 socio-economic information (see below)
  * Support for complex number, arbitrary precision and symbolic
 computation for all functions
  * Notebook interface for review and re-use of previous inputs and
 outputs including graphics and text annotations
  * Technical word processing including formula editing and  
 automated
 report generating
  * Tools for connecting to SQL, Java, .NET, C++, FORTRAN and http
 based systems

 


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread Harald Schilly

On Jun 24, 6:16 pm, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu
wrote:
 I'll second this. Wikipedia is the highest source of traffic for  
 Cython after google and people typing in cython.org directly (despite  
 an only average page)--I wouldn't be surprised if it accounts for a  
 significant proportion of potential and actual sage hits as well.

I can give you some numbers, but in general you are right. Don't
forget, there are also other wikipedia language editions that give a
fair amount of traffic, especially french.

Besides wikipedia, there is also knol, google's version of an
wikipedia for experts. This means, that an article is always
associated with an author and there are no independent topics. Last
time when I improved Sage's wikipedia page, I also started this:
http://knol.google.com/k/harald-schilly/sage
It's very general, but improvements are welcome. Anybody is invited to
suggest some improvements or more directly, I can also add others
(with a google account) to become editors.

H
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby

Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
 I think we should really make some effort to improve our page on Wikipedia.


OK, based on some input from others, and what I found with Google, I 
have revised the 'Features* section somewhat (and only the Features to 
date).

The current page is here (this might include edits by others. I would 
not be surprised if the two Wolfram Research employees go over it soon.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(mathematics_software)

What I wrote is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)oldid=298394689

The previous page is here, which was last edited by Cloudruns who I 
believe works for WRI, but he has never admitted it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)oldid=295406997

The differences between the previous page (edited by Cloudruns) and the 
one I wrote is

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)diff=298394689oldid=295406997

Someone wrote the 'Description' does not cite any references. It might 
be better to delete that altogether, as it is basically covered in the 
section above it.


It is still nowhere near as nice as the Mathematica page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematica
but hopefully a bit better than it was. Others please comment or edit 
it. It might be better if William does not, as it could be considered a 
conflict of interet. (Not that that stops the WRI guys!)

Looking at the Mathematica page, the only real reference to most of 
functionality is the Mathematica documentation. We should make sure the 
documentation of Sage covers the areas I have put, as otherwise they 
might be deleted.

One question, does the 'secure' notebook use HTTPS ? I assume it does, 
but did not write that in case it is not true.


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread William Stein

2009/6/24 Dr. David Kirkby david.kir...@onetel.net:

 Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
 I think we should really make some effort to improve our page on Wikipedia.


 OK, based on some input from others, and what I found with Google, I
 have revised the 'Features* section somewhat (and only the Features to
 date).

 The current page is here (this might include edits by others. I would
 not be surprised if the two Wolfram Research employees go over it soon.)

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(mathematics_software)

 What I wrote is here:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)oldid=298394689

 The previous page is here, which was last edited by Cloudruns who I
 believe works for WRI, but he has never admitted it.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)oldid=295406997

 The differences between the previous page (edited by Cloudruns) and the
 one I wrote is

 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sage_(mathematics_software)diff=298394689oldid=295406997

 Someone wrote the 'Description' does not cite any references. It might
 be better to delete that altogether, as it is basically covered in the
 section above it.


 It is still nowhere near as nice as the Mathematica page
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematica
 but hopefully a bit better than it was. Others please comment or edit

I think it looks very nice.  thanks!!

 it. It might be better if William does not, as it could be considered a
 conflict of interet. (Not that that stops the WRI guys!)

 Looking at the Mathematica page, the only real reference to most of
 functionality is the Mathematica documentation. We should make sure the
 documentation of Sage covers the areas I have put, as otherwise they
 might be deleted.

 One question, does the 'secure' notebook use HTTPS ? I assume it does,
 but did not write that in case it is not true.


Yes, it does.

 -- William

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread kcrisman


A related page to look at would be 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer_algebra_systems
Note that Mma is declared there to be ubiquitous while Maple only
notes its libraries' sources are viewable.  Our friends at Axiom even
link from there to a video!

- kcrisman
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby

kcrisman wrote:
 
 A related page to look at would be 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer_algebra_systems
 Note that Mma is declared there to be ubiquitous while Maple only
 notes its libraries' sources are viewable.  Our friends at Axiom even
 link from there to a video!
 
 - kcrisman

I thought that the ubiquitous there was very odd. It was placed there 
by Cloudruns, whose edits to several pages are so pro-Mathematica, and 
so anti every other similar system, that I believe he probably works for 
Wolfram Research.

I asked him both on his talk page, and the in the talk page for 
Mathematica, but he never replied.


There is a section in the Mathematica page on Front ends I added to that

Sage, which aims to be a free alternative to Mathematica, can be used 
as an interface to Mathematica


Cloudruns, changed that to Sage mathematics software can be used as an 
interface to Mathematica

I stongly suspect he has a conflict of interest, but proving it is 
another matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Cloudruns._I_suspect_has_connections_with_Wolfram_Research_the_producers_of_Mathematica

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-24 Thread Jason Grout

William Stein wrote:
 * Constrained and unconstrained local and global optimization
 


Yes, in scipy.  See http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/optimize.html


 
 * Support for complex number, arbitrary precision and symbolic
 computation for all functions
 
 all functions?  yeah right.


Note that Support is not defined.  I believe, for some definition of 
support, this might have at least some semblance of truth.  Then 
again, you might just get an unevaluated something which is not useful.

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage on Wikipedia

2009-06-23 Thread Dan Drake
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 at 02:15AM +0100, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
 I think we should really make some effort to improve our page on
 Wikipedia.

I'm not sure if I can really help with this, but I agree that
cultivating our Wikipedia page is necessary these days. It's not
entirely unlike how political campaigns engage in framing, try to stay
on message, try to manage what issues are central to a campaign, and
so on. I'd rather think about math and coding than these sorts of
things, but some potential Sage users or software reviewers are going to
visit Wikipedia to find out about Sage, and we should strive to make 
our page there accurate and informative.

Dan

-- 
---  Dan Drake dr...@kaist.edu
-  KAIST Department of Mathematical Sciences
---  http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake


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