Re: [silk] Long Now's Manual for Civilization Lists

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

Hm I thought heinlein had it figured out

 human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a 
hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build 
a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, 
act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a 
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  
Specialization is for insects." 






On 30 September 2014 8:16:50 pm Heather Madrone  wrote:


Selection bias cuts a number of ways. While there are a lot of
thoughtful selection in the lists I skimmed, there was a notable bias
towards traditionally male skills. I saw one book on sewing and none on
spinning, weaving, knitting, dyeing, or felting. I saw nothing on
education, childcare, eldercare, or nursing. Food preservation and
preparation seemed underrepresented as well.

On the other hand, the books that were included seemed like a good
collection to have on the shelf right next to your Real Goods catalog.

--hmm
> Charles Haynes 
> September 29, 2014 at 10:57 PM September 29, 2014
> I wonder how many of the books will be in Chinese. They say they aren't
> "limiting" nominations to english, but selection bias and subsequent
> voting
> bias will be huge.
>
> -- Charles
>
>
> skn 
> September 29, 2014 at 9:55 PM September 29, 2014
> Long Now Foundation has a very interesting project - Manual for
> Civilization Lists, roughly 3500 books most essential to sustain or
> rebuild civilization.
> http://blog.longnow.org/02014/02/06/manual-for-civilization-begins/
>
> The recent blog post on the subject has list from David Brin, Bruce
> Sterling & Daniel Suarez
> 
http://blog.longnow.org/02014/09/29/science-fiction-authors-manual-for-civilization/

>
>
> 

Re: [silk] Long Now's Manual for Civilization Lists

[Heather Madrone]

Selection bias cuts a number of ways. While there are a lot of 
thoughtful selection in the lists I skimmed, there was a notable bias 
towards traditionally male skills. I saw one book on sewing and none on 
spinning, weaving, knitting, dyeing, or felting. I saw nothing on 
education, childcare, eldercare, or nursing. Food preservation and 
preparation seemed underrepresented as well.


On the other hand, the books that were included seemed like a good 
collection to have on the shelf right next to your Real Goods catalog.


--hmm

Charles Haynes 
September 29, 2014 at 10:57 PM September 29, 2014
I wonder how many of the books will be in Chinese. They say they aren't
"limiting" nominations to english, but selection bias and subsequent 
voting

bias will be huge.

-- Charles


skn 
September 29, 2014 at 9:55 PM September 29, 2014
Long Now Foundation has a very interesting project - Manual for
Civilization Lists, roughly 3500 books most essential to sustain or
rebuild civilization.
http://blog.longnow.org/02014/02/06/manual-for-civilization-begins/

The recent blog post on the subject has list from David Brin, Bruce
Sterling & Daniel Suarez
http://blog.longnow.org/02014/09/29/science-fiction-authors-manual-for-civilization/

Re: [silk] Long Now's Manual for Civilization Lists

[skn]

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014, at 07:57 AM, Charles Haynes wrote:
> I wonder how many of the books will be in Chinese. They say they aren't
> "limiting" nominations to english, but selection bias and subsequent
> voting
> bias will be huge.
> 
> -- Charles

Very true indeed! BTW if you are interested in Chinese Sci-fi, do check
this Kickstarter project out
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/clarkesworld/clarkesworld-chinese-science-fiction-translation-p

-skn-

> 
> On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 2:55 PM, skn  wrote:
> 
> > Long Now Foundation has a very interesting project - Manual for
> > Civilization Lists, roughly 3500 books most essential to sustain or
> > rebuild civilization.
> > http://blog.longnow.org/02014/02/06/manual-for-civilization-begins/
> >
> > The recent blog post on the subject has list from David Brin, Bruce
> > Sterling & Daniel Suarez
> >
> > http://blog.longnow.org/02014/09/29/science-fiction-authors-manual-for-civilization/
> >
> >

Re: [silk] Long Now's Manual for Civilization Lists

[Charles Haynes]

I wonder how many of the books will be in Chinese. They say they aren't
"limiting" nominations to english, but selection bias and subsequent voting
bias will be huge.

-- Charles

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 2:55 PM, skn  wrote:

> Long Now Foundation has a very interesting project - Manual for
> Civilization Lists, roughly 3500 books most essential to sustain or
> rebuild civilization.
> http://blog.longnow.org/02014/02/06/manual-for-civilization-begins/
>
> The recent blog post on the subject has list from David Brin, Bruce
> Sterling & Daniel Suarez
>
> http://blog.longnow.org/02014/09/29/science-fiction-authors-manual-for-civilization/
>
>

Re: [silk] long

[Eugen Leitl]

On Sat, Feb 09, 2008 at 07:44:38AM +0530, Hassath wrote:

> Or does someone know it differently?

Zucker. Сахар. Saccharose. 

-- 
Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org
__
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

Re: [silk] long

[Ingrid]

On 09/02/2008, Abhijit Menon-Sen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> If chini is Chinese, is misri Egyptian?
>
> -- ams
>
>
... and shakhar, chakkarai etc. indo-aryan, sharing a root with zucker,
sugar?

Re: [silk] long

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2008-02-08 08:11:07 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> misri or chini - white crystalline sugar

If chini is Chinese, is misri Egyptian?

-- ams

Re: [silk] long

[Hassath]

On Feb 8, 2008 11:26 PM, Deepa Mohan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I also thought of  "gulkhand" which seems to be a popular sweet in
> many parts of India. Was this of Mughal, or Indian origin? I never
> liked it, and could not understand my grandmother's need to dunk rose
> petals in sugar syrup!...

It's gul*kand*, not gulkhand. I suspect it's of Mughal origin, because
of 'gul' - which means flower or rose, I think, in Arabic.
And yes, Deepa, even I never liked it- notwithstanding childhood
memories of nice neighbours offering it to us. :-)
-- 
- Hassath

Re: [silk] long

[Hassath]

On Feb 8, 2008 9:41 PM, Ramjee Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> misri or chini - white crystalline sugar
>
> It would be of interest to note that, of all the above products, misri
> or white crystalline sugar is a very late entrant to the scene of
> Indian cuisine in a major way and has quickly become predominant.

In UP and Delhi, I believe misri refers not to the everyday small
crystalline sugar, but the bigger chunks. And in some parts of Kerala,
I've heard the same thing referred to as 'kalkandam'.

Chini is the white crystalline sugar which is now predominant.

Or does someone know it differently?

-- 
- Hassath

Re: [silk] long

[Deepa Mohan]

On Feb 8, 2008 10:53 PM, Ramjee Swaminathan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, :-) And nice to note the 'Telegu' as opposed to Telugu. :-))
>
> Actually it was something like:  "stones the colour of frankincense,
> sweeter than figs or honey" [1] - referring to Khand; this was in
> 326BC. Arthatshasthra of the same time also refers to the whole gamut
> of products of sugarcane.

I also thought of  "gulkhand" which seems to be a popular sweet in
many parts of India. Was this of Mughal, or Indian origin? I never
liked it, and could not understand my grandmother's need to dunk rose
petals in sugar syrup!...

And "khand" as in "piece"..." khandam", I think, also denotes "region"
in Sanskrit and its derviatives,as in "Bundelkhand"and so on.

Words are just amazing, the way they lead you into further drifts!

Deepa.
>
> [1] JB Hutchinson (ed), Diversity and Change in the Indian
> Subcontinent, Cambridge University Press, 1974.
>
> __r.
>
> On 2/8/08, Radhika, Y. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > in Telegu, it is Panchadara and chakkira. my understanding is that there is
> > a greek account in Alexander's time that refers to the sugarcane
> > as producing "honey without bees".
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2008 8:35 AM, Ramjee Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> 
>
>

Re: [silk] long

[Ramjee Swaminathan]

Yes, :-) And nice to note the 'Telegu' as opposed to Telugu. :-))

Actually it was something like:  "stones the colour of frankincense,
sweeter than figs or honey" [1] - referring to Khand; this was in
326BC. Arthatshasthra of the same time also refers to the whole gamut
of products of sugarcane.

[1] JB Hutchinson (ed), Diversity and Change in the Indian
Subcontinent, Cambridge University Press, 1974.

__r.

On 2/8/08, Radhika, Y. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> in Telegu, it is Panchadara and chakkira. my understanding is that there is
> a greek account in Alexander's time that refers to the sugarcane
> as producing "honey without bees".
>
> On Feb 8, 2008 8:35 AM, Ramjee Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:

Re: [silk] long

[Radhika, Y.]

in Telegu, it is Panchadara and chakkira. my understanding is that there is
a greek account in Alexander's time that refers to the sugarcane
as producing "honey without bees".

On Feb 8, 2008 8:35 AM, Ramjee Swaminathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> :-) the rambler strikes again. Probable reason: too much sugar.
>
> On 2/7/08, Abhijit Menon-Sen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > > (but again, not in all languages - in Malayalam and Tamil, they are
> > > respectively called charkarai and chakkara, AFAIK - there are also
> > > cheenchakkari, chenjeeni etc in colloquial refs) .
> >
> > BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
> > heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
> > a similar distinction in Tamil?
> >
> Thanks! I forgot this pansarai funda. We used to have Nair neighbours
> and they used to tell us that from region to region there were
> different and slightly varying references to sugar and that anyway
> only after moving to Madras they even 'saw' white sugar!
>
> vella chakkarai - pounded and granulated gud/jaggery
> panam-khandu - palm khand
> panam-cheeni :-) - palm sugar
> panai-vellam - palm jaggery
> etc etc...
>
> > > There are some recorded instances of cc sugar being imported into
> > > western india from china (during circa 1-200 ad)
> >
> > Fascinating. I did not know that. What route did it take?
> >
> When there were no wars in the NE, NW and N of India, there was very
> little that was imported from china as there was no need to import
> sugar as it was never an issue of scarcity then. During wars, however,
> the sea routes were used (malacca straits, ceylon, round kanyakumari
> and onwards to either musiri or kollam or n other ports near what are
> now famous as Kanhoji Angre's (one of the greatest naval strategists
> and admirals) port bastions.
>
> In any case, the shipments apparently werent huge or anything, White
> crystalline sugar must have been a 'delicacy'  considering everything
> (my take) - the echoes of a similar context are found in paperback
> 'pioneer' recap literature of North America, such as that of Laura
> Ingalls Wilder. That white sugar be used for 'company' and as a status
> symbol.
>
> > > * Om Prakash - Food and drinks in ancient India
> >
> > I think I'll try to find a copy of that. Speaking of which, I should go
> > to the book fair in Delhi before it ends.
> >
> Good luck and warm regards:
>
> __r.
>
>

Re: [silk] long

[Ramjee Swaminathan]

:-) the rambler strikes again. Probable reason: too much sugar.

On 2/7/08, Abhijit Menon-Sen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > (but again, not in all languages - in Malayalam and Tamil, they are
> > respectively called charkarai and chakkara, AFAIK - there are also
> > cheenchakkari, chenjeeni etc in colloquial refs) .
>
> BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
> heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
> a similar distinction in Tamil?
>
Thanks! I forgot this pansarai funda. We used to have Nair neighbours
and they used to tell us that from region to region there were
different and slightly varying references to sugar and that anyway
only after moving to Madras they even 'saw' white sugar!

vella chakkarai - pounded and granulated gud/jaggery
panam-khandu - palm khand
panam-cheeni :-) - palm sugar
panai-vellam - palm jaggery
etc etc...

> > There are some recorded instances of cc sugar being imported into
> > western india from china (during circa 1-200 ad)
>
> Fascinating. I did not know that. What route did it take?
>
When there were no wars in the NE, NW and N of India, there was very
little that was imported from china as there was no need to import
sugar as it was never an issue of scarcity then. During wars, however,
the sea routes were used (malacca straits, ceylon, round kanyakumari
and onwards to either musiri or kollam or n other ports near what are
now famous as Kanhoji Angre's (one of the greatest naval strategists
and admirals) port bastions.

In any case, the shipments apparently werent huge or anything, White
crystalline sugar must have been a 'delicacy'  considering everything
(my take) - the echoes of a similar context are found in paperback
'pioneer' recap literature of North America, such as that of Laura
Ingalls Wilder. That white sugar be used for 'company' and as a status
symbol.

> > * Om Prakash - Food and drinks in ancient India
>
> I think I'll try to find a copy of that. Speaking of which, I should go
> to the book fair in Delhi before it ends.
>
Good luck and warm regards:

__r.

Re: [silk] long

[Ramjee Swaminathan]

On 2/7/08, Gautam John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2008 9:05 AM, Deepa Mohan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No...gur is called "vellam"...and palm sugar is "panam kalkandu".
>
> There is also this liquid palm sugar syrup, in Kerala, that is called "paani".
>
>
:-) Sugar daddy wants to inject some noise here.

There are various byeproducts, and products of sugarcane (not
including the bagasse, which was called Khali) that are referenced in
literature - mostly in sanskrit but adapted in other indic languages
too:

phanita - thickened sugarcane juice (now called rab?)
guda - jaggery or brown sugar
khand - large indian sugar  faceted crystals (kalkhandu is a tamilized
version of khand, meaning 'stone'khand - which is a very apt
description - does 'khandsari' ring a bell in the context of sugar
mills?)
sharkara - brown sugar or bura which is actually gud crystals,
thorougly drained of molasses, but not refined in anyway
matsyandhika - crystalline sugar (fish egg like) (I was rather
pleasantly surprised to see this along with handpounded rice etc, in
RelianceFresh, of all places in Bangalore - but it was plainly labeled
'white sugar!' bah!)
misri or chini - white crystalline sugar

It would be of interest to note that, of all the above products, misri
or white crystalline sugar is a very late entrant to the scene of
Indian cuisine in a major way and has quickly become predominant. I
very seriously wonder whether it has something to do with the common
indian fixation on melanin(actually the lack of it).  May be gud
(actually too gud), unpolished rice and small grains (such as millets
etc) have fallen by the wayside because they are antithetical to the
'fair and lowly' aspirations?

hmmm...


__r.
-- 
http://www.qsl.net/vu2sro/
"Mathematics has given economics rigor, but alas, also mortis."
-- Robert Heilbroner

Re: [silk] long

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2008-02-08 08:32:33 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Molasses_Disaster

I am a terrible human being, because I find that description very funny.

   «The collapse unleashed an immense wave of molasses between 8 and 15
ft (2.5 to 4.5 m) high, moving at 35 mph (56 km/h) and exerting a
pressure of 2 ton/ft² (200 kPa).»

Did Wikipedia exist in 1919? I can just imagine a bunch of Wikipedia
editors running from the wave while arguing about the best way to
measure its velocity.

-- ams

Re: [silk] long

[Gautam John]

On Feb 8, 2008 9:05 AM, Deepa Mohan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No...gur is called "vellam"...and palm sugar is "panam kalkandu".

There is also this liquid palm sugar syrup, in Kerala, that is called "paani".

Re: [silk] long

[Deepa Mohan]

BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
> | heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
> | a similar distinction in Tamil?

No...gur is called "vellam"...and palm sugar is "panam kalkandu".
(kalkandu is sugar candy ...the kind that comes in crystals and is
offered when one enters a wedding hall.)

Deepa.

On Feb 8, 2008 8:32 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:
>
> | BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
> | heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
> | a similar distinction in Tamil?
>
> Speaking of which, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Molasses_Disaster
> makes a gory read
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> =5wck
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>
>

Re: [silk] long

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:

| BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
| heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
| a similar distinction in Tamil?

Speaking of which, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Molasses_Disaster
makes a gory read

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHq8ZJXQZpNTcrCzMRAk4GAKCFdbVfc1jEy0TxQ6sYBaUEXMgGWQCgoJ1m
NOFrVVDKJe6A8CE1RziTErQ=
=5wck
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Re: [silk] long

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2008-02-07 09:09:06 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Anything that alludes/traces its origin to china origin is tagged so
> in sanskrit and other indic languages

Yes, and there are a couple of strange examples in addition to the ones
you cite. The only one I can think of right now is that woks are called
"cheena chatti" in Malayalam.

> (but again, not in all languages - in Malayalam and Tamil, they are
> respectively called charkarai and chakkara, AFAIK - there are also
> cheenchakkari, chenjeeni etc in colloquial refs) .

BTW, in Malayalam, cc sugar is usually called "pan[cha]sara". I've only
heard the "charkarai" form used for gur or perhaps palm sugar. Is there
a similar distinction in Tamil?

> There are some recorded instances of cc sugar being imported into
> western india from china (during circa 1-200 ad)

Fascinating. I did not know that. What route did it take?

> 2. Probably there is some incipient branding principle involved in
> calling certain kind of items cheeni, kum to think of it.
>
> 3. Chinese goods have been flooding the world markets, from the time
> of the flood, I think.

:-)

> * Om Prakash - Food and drinks in ancient India

I think I'll try to find a copy of that. Speaking of which, I should go
to the book fair in Delhi before it ends.

-- ams