subject:"Re\: CS>Ions vs Particles"

In a message dated 9/29/2001 1:16:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
coy...@alltel.net writes:

> Subj:Re: CS>Ions vs Particles
> Date:9/29/2001 1:16:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:coy...@alltel.net (Ode Coyote)
> Reply-to: mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com";>silver-list@eskimo.com
> To:silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   I've heard that [13 PPM limit for ionic silver] but can't recall where
> it came from.
> 
> Practically speaking, I can make 25 PPM ionic/particulate mix with LVDC
> but the PPM drops back a few points in storage over night and the TE
> gains in intensity.
> 
> I have not been able to make a totally ionic sol over about 13 PPM in
> very warm water as it starts to develop a TE around that point or sooner
> and the TE intensifies as the water cools...and conductivity drops.
> 
> So, my question is, what would the practical limits of ionic silver be
> using a given process, at what temperature.  And, doesn't any solute
> precipitate [form a TE] when the temperature drops if it was saturated at
> 

Ken: As my calculation shows there is no practical limit to Ag+ solubility in 
a typical CS process short of adding salt intentionally, or something 
similar, that would precipitate an insoluble silver compound. 

> 
> What happens when the charge leaks off? [ions gain back their electrons
> from the outside, be it from cosmic rays or radio transmissions or
> whatever...maybe even from dissolved oxygen?]  Wouldn't it go
> 

Ken: I think you are referring to the reduction of ionic silver by sunlight 
which is known to occur for silver nitrate and silver halides, neither of 
which should be present in a typical LVDC CS product. Variations is 
particulate silver particle size with time occurs as well. Perhaps Frank or 
Ivan can address that issue, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment.

> 
> I don't think there should be a difference between a HVAC produced ion
> and a LVDC produced ion. The numbers may be different due to differing
> energy levels in production but what happens when that energy
> 

Ken: Perhaps the "energy is not disipated" in an HVAC CS product because only 
a very small proportion of the total silver is particulate. If only a few PPM 
of silver particulate are present then these particles have a good chance of 
remaining stable.

Roger

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

Arnold Beland wrote:

> If an Ion-Selective Electrode is used for the PPM measurement, should that
> not correlate with Dr. Maass's Technical Brief?

No. An ISE will respond to the presence of silver ions (cations) regardless of 
what anion is in the solution that is countering its ionic charge. As pure 
water becomes "contaminated" with anions, the number of silver cations that the 
solution can hold (without saturating) will increase. 

frank key

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Re: CS: Ions vs particles

In a message dated 9/29/2001 2:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bober...@swbell.net writes:

> Subj:Re: CS: Ions vs particles
> Date:9/29/2001 2:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:bober...@swbell.net (Robert Berger)
> Reply-to: mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com";>silver-list@eskimo.com
> To:silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger,
>  
> Good idead. When would I add it, before or after brew??
>  
> "Ole Bob
> 

Bob: Please let me know exactly what you are trying to do and what are you 
starting with. Roger

Re: CS: Ions vs particles

2001-09-29 Thread Robert Berger

Roger,

Good idead. When would I add it, before or after brew??

"Ole Bob

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

2001-09-29 Thread Arnold Beland

If an Ion-Selective Electrode is used for the PPM measurement, should that
not correlate with Dr. Maass's Technical Brief?

- Original Message -
From: "Frank Key" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles


> Ode Coyote wrote:
>
> > I've heard that [13 PPM limit for ionic silver] but can't recall where
> > it came from.
>
> Dr. Maass wrote a technical brief titled "Solubility Products Involving
Silver
> Compounds" which mentions the theoretical 13.3 ppm limit in PURE WATER. It
> goes up from their as the concentration of anions goes up.
>
> The paper is at:
>
> http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/Solubility_Products.PDF
>
>
> frank key
>
>
> --
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> List maintainer: Mike Devour

Re: CS: Ions vs particles

Roger wrote:

> Why not add potassium citrate and be done with it? Is it expensive or 
> difficult to find? Roger

It can't be too expensive, it is used in softdrinks. 

You can buy it from:

www.doctordavidfield.com
 90 capsules for $8.50

frank key

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Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

Ode Coyote wrote:

> I've heard that [13 PPM limit for ionic silver] but can't recall where
> it came from.

Dr. Maass wrote a technical brief titled "Solubility Products Involving Silver 
Compounds" which mentions the theoretical 13.3 ppm limit in PURE WATER. It 
goes up from their as the concentration of anions goes up.

The paper is at: 

http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/Solubility_Products.PDF 

frank key

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Re: CS: Ions vs particles

In a message dated 9/29/2001 12:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bober...@swbell.net writes:


> Subj:Re: CS: Ions vs particles
> Date:9/29/2001 12:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:bober...@swbell.net (Robert Berger)
> Reply-to: mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com";>silver-list@eskimo.com
> To:silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger and Frank,
>  
> I suggest that one measures the NO3 at the time of manufacture and then 
> daily for several days. If the DW is very low in impurities then the anion 
> will be ozone.
>  
> I have another batch that will be ready at 12:15 my time (CST). It is being 
> made with a DW that has 3.2 uS/cc conductance. This is to verify NO3 change 
> with conductivity.


Bob: Sounds like a good idea. A direct correlation would be revealing. Roger

> 
> The ad for Silver 100 says it is complexed with citrates and potassium. so 
> I am looking for something like potassium bicarbonate to provide the anion. 
> We all need potassium, and it should bring up the pH to 6+.


Bob: Why not add potassium citrate and be done with it? Is it expensive or 
difficult to find? Roger

> 
> 
>

I've heard that [13 PPM limit for ionic silver] but can't recall where it came from.
Practically speaking, I can make 25 PPM ionic/particulate mix with LVDC but the PPM drops back a few points in storage over night and the TE gains in intensity.
I have not been able to make a totally ionic sol over about 13 PPM in very warm water as it starts to develop a TE around that point or sooner and the TE intensifies as the water cools...and conductivity drops.
So, my question is, what would the practical limits of ionic silver be using a given process, at what temperature. And, doesn't any solute precipitate [form a TE] when the temperature drops if it was saturated at a higher temperature?
What happens when the charge leaks off? [ions gain back their electrons from the outside, be it from cosmic rays or radio transmissions or whatever...maybe even from dissolved oxygen?] Wouldn't it go particulate?
I don't think there should be a difference between a HVAC produced ion and a LVDC produced ion. The numbers may be different due to differing energy levels in production but what happens when that energy dissipates?

Ole Bob, you say you make a highly ionic sol that stays stable? What is the PPM? [I forgot] If no one has made higher, that might be the practical limit.

IMO, since no one really knows which works better for what [ionic or metallic], it would seem that a mix would be the best of both worlds. All bases covered.

PS The statement below doesn't make mention of ionic solution or colloidal suspension or ionic to colloidal ratios. All are fruit. Which are the apples?

Does the 32,000 PPM CS have stabilizers or should it be shaken, not stirred? What does it look like?
Ken Semi-layman

At 10:26 AM 9/28/01 EDT, you wrote:

In a message dated 9/28/2001 10:20:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

The solubility issue is another matter. I meant to repond to Roger's post with the following: we've seen and worked with products from concentrations of 3ppm on the low side to 3,200ppm at the upper end -- the latter one of several formulations that range to 32,000ppm. So
Stephen

Stephen: Perhaps you've missed the discussion -- over the last several months -- in which it was put forward (and apparently readily believed by most) that the solubility limit of ionic silver is 13 PPM. Roger

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Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/29/2001 12:39:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

> Roger,
> Please tell me what you're point is. That might help.
> I am only following up on my statement that there are such significant 
> differences between 'ionic' solutions that to categorize them thus does the 
> truth of the matter a disservice.

Sephen: I'm always a little cautious around people who profess to have a 
corner on " the real truth".

My contention is that such impurities or intentional compounds/complexes make 
> such different 'ionic' contents that their efficiencies in dealing with 
> ie. bacteria is compromised first by compounds snd then by complexes.

Stephen: Yes, I understand your contention, but, as far as I'm concerned, 
there is no scientific basis for this point of view. I have stated what I 
know about this subject already, so I'm not going to repeat myself. At the 
very least, provide us with a real live example, ANY example, when a 
contention similar to yours has proven to be true. If you can't do that, I'd 
like to end my input to this discussion because, IMHO, we have come full 
circle. Roger  

> 
>

Re: CS: Ions vs particles

2001-09-29 Thread Robert Berger

Roger and Frank,

I suggest that one measures the NO3 at the time of manufacture and then daily 
for several days. If the DW is very low in impurities then the anion will be 
ozone.

I have another batch that will be ready at 12:15 my time (CST). It is being 
made with a DW that has 3.2 uS/cc conductance. This is to verify NO3 change 
with conductivity.

The ad for Silver 100 says it is complexed with citrates and potassium. so I am 
looking for something like potassium bicarbonate to provide the anion. We all 
need potassium, and it should bring up the pH to 6+.

"Ole Bob"

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

2001-09-29 Thread Stephen Quinto

Roger,
Please tell me what you're point is. That might help.
I am only following up on my statement that there are such significant
differences between 'ionic' solutions that to categorize them thus does the
truth of the matter a disservice. My contention is that such impurities or
intentional compounds/complexes make for such different 'ionic' contents
that their efficiencies in dealing with ie. bacteria is compromised first by
compounds snd then by complexes.
Stephen
  -Original Message-
  From: rogalt...@aol.com [mailto:rogalt...@aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:37 PM
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles


  In a message dated 9/28/2001 4:11:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:



Roger,
We're not discussing the solubility issue you raised.  My argument is
really confined to the 'ionic vs the ionic'
These are two different subjects.
Stephen



  Stephen: Perhaps you can define your terms before we proceed any further.
Roger

Re: CS: Ions vs particles

In a message dated 9/29/2001 11:01:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fr...@strsoft.com writes:

> Kevin Nolan wrote:
> 
> > Interesting too what "Ole Bob" had to say about HVAC with and without =
> > CO2 blanket. The clear implication is that without it (CO2) one runs a =
> > strong chance of brewing a significant fraction of silver as silver =
> > nitrate solution - generally considered it seems as a pretty =
> > undesireable form of silver.
> 
> Bob's statement does not apply to the HVAC method as it is generally 
> implemented. His statement is specific for only the HVAC ARC method that he 
> uses.
> 
> frank key
> 

Frank: Even in that regard, sputtered silver formed from a "blanketless" HVAC 
Arc  generates such a high rate of silver ion production that nitrate 
concentration can be ignored according to one published EPA reference I 
found. When one looks at the EPA's probably very conservative nitrate 
tolerances, there is very, very little risk of ingesting anything close to 
toxic nitrate levels, even if the CS is taken prophylactically. However, if 
one does choose to make CS by this method, a nitrate analysis should always 
by made on the final lot as a precautionary measure. Roger

Re: CS: Ions vs particles

Kevin Nolan wrote:

> Interesting too what "Ole Bob" had to say about HVAC with and without =
> CO2 blanket. The clear implication is that without it (CO2) one runs a =
> strong chance of brewing a significant fraction of silver as silver =
> nitrate solution - generally considered it seems as a pretty =
> undesireable form of silver.

Bob's statement does not apply to the HVAC method as it is generally 
implemented. His statement is specific for only the HVAC ARC method that he 
uses.

frank key

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Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/28/2001 4:11:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

> Roger,
> We're not discussing the solubility issue you raised.  My argument is 
> really confined to the 'ionic vs the ionic'
> These are two different subjects.
> Stephen
> 

Stephen: Perhaps you can define your terms before we proceed any further. 
Roger

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

Ole Bob,
That's a pretty good analysis.  Lots of possible ionic complexes in the
formulations!
Stephen
  -Original Message-
  From: Robert Berger [mailto:bober...@swbell.net]
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 4:13 PM
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

  Roger & Stephen,

  There is a very great difference between making HVAC ARC with and without
the CO2 blanket.

  When using the CO2 blanket the conductivity is generally around 100 tp 300
uS/cc and the NO3 is 2 to 4 PPM.

  Without the CO2 the conductivity hits 850+ uS/cc and the NO3 will have an
initial reading of 2 to 4 PPM, but after about 24 hours the NO3 jumps up by
about a factor of 10 !!

  The above applies to a DW with an initial conductivity of 0.25 =/- .05
uS/cc.

  I ran a batch yesterday with a DW that had an inital conductivity of 4.0
uS/cc. The initial NO3 was 3.9 ppm and today is 2.9 ppm.

  With the low conductivity the anion must be ozone and that oxidizes the
NO2 to NO3.

  The Higher cond. DW has unknow impurities in it so some other complex was
formed.

  In reading the add for "Silver Spray 100" I noted that it is complexed
with a citrate and potassium.

  "Ole Bob"

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

2001-09-28 Thread Robert Berger

Roger & Stephen,

There is a very great difference between making HVAC ARC with and without the 
CO2 blanket.

When using the CO2 blanket the conductivity is generally around 100 tp 300 
uS/cc and the NO3 is 2 to 4 PPM.

Without the CO2 the conductivity hits 850+ uS/cc and the NO3 will have an 
initial reading of 2 to 4 PPM, but after about 24 hours the NO3 jumps up by 
about a factor of 10 !! 

The above applies to a DW with an initial conductivity of 0.25 =/- .05 uS/cc.

I ran a batch yesterday with a DW that had an inital conductivity of 4.0 uS/cc. 
The initial NO3 was 3.9 ppm and today is 2.9 ppm.

With the low conductivity the anion must be ozone and that oxidizes the NO2 to 
NO3.

The Higher cond. DW has unknow impurities in it so some other complex was 
formed.

In reading the add for "Silver Spray 100" I noted that it is complexed with a 
citrate and potassium.

"Ole Bob"

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

Roger,
We're not discussing the solubility issue you raised.  My argument is really
confined to the 'ionic vs the ionic'
These are two different subjects.
Stephen

 -Original Message-
From: rogalt...@aol.com [mailto:rogalt...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:24 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

  In a message dated 9/28/2001 2:07:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

Roger,
we are already talking about very dilute systems.  10ppm is one part per
100,000.  So ionic impurities take on greater proportionate values..
Stephen

  Stephen: No, the more dilute a solution, the more ideally it behaves.
That's why we're in very good shape using solution theory to make these
kinds of estimates. Even at concentrations which are significantly greater
than dilute (16,000 PPM Ag+, for example), solubility product calculations
are still reasonably accurate. In addition, thermodynamic "theory" holds for
concentrated solutions. The only difference is that one has to obtain values
(usually through experimentation, but sometimes approximated through
thermodynamic and other types of modeling) for the activity coefficients in
question. Complex systems, however, are another story. Feel free to wring
your hands when it comes to solving a system of equations for them. Roger

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/28/2001 2:07:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

> Roger,
> we are already talking about very dilute systems.  10ppm is one part per 
> 100,000.  So ionic impurities take on greater proportionate values.. 
> Stephen 
> 

Stephen: No, the more dilute a solution, the more ideally it behaves. That's 
why we're in very good shape using solution theory to make these kinds of 
estimates. Even at concentrations which are significantly greater than dilute 
(16,000 PPM Ag+, for example), solubility product calculations are still 
reasonably accurate. In addition, thermodynamic "theory" holds for 
concentrated solutions. The only difference is that one has to obtain values 
(usually through experimentation, but sometimes approximated through 
thermodynamic and other types of modeling) for the activity coefficients in 
question. Complex systems, however, are another story. Feel free to wring 
your hands when it comes to solving a system of equations for them. Roger

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

Roger,
we are already talking about very dilute systems.  10ppm is one part per
100,000.  So ionic impurities take on greater proportionate values..
Stephen
  -Original Message-
  From: rogalt...@aol.com [mailto:rogalt...@aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:46 PM
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

  In a message dated 9/28/2001 12:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

Subj:RE: CS>Ions vs Particles
Date:9/28/2001 12:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com (Stephen Quinto)
Reply-to: squi...@natural-immunogenics.com
To:silver-list@eskimo.com

Roger,
The reason I said the fact of the matter is confounding is this:  the
ionic content in a formulation is not quite so simple. The ionic silver
content is in all likelihood complexed with whatever impurities were present
in the water to begin with or that it has taken from the air.  Such
relationships are not easily determined, if at all -- such as AgNO3 to
mention one specifically that is likely present in most formulations. Since
Nitrogen is #7 in the Atomic chart it is not really detectable even by
Inductively coupled Plasma Spectrophotometry although other elements [above
8] that can be detected might be present.

  Stephen: According to the thermodynamics of dilute solutions, the
confounding effects of impurities such as the ones you are referring to on
the activity coefficient of Ag+ are negligible. This fact has been
demonstrated any number of times in simple as well as complex systems. And
as long as you brought it up, strictly speaking, solubility product
calculations are valid ONLY for dilute solutions.

How materials operate at a sub-nanometer level are full of mystery. I am
convinced there is some similarity with homeopathic science, where only the
vibrational memory of a particular presence is left in a, for example, 30x
dilution.
When using a TEM, for example, we are often able to see the effect of
electron bombardment on some of the materials, esp those that are neutral
but remain susceptible to the electrons. We've seen what look like
nanometer-scale chips, cut are really crystals coursing with energy in
patterns that resemble computer chips.
Anyway I'm not wringing my hands at the challenge, just having
difficulty finding time.

  Stephen: Admittedly, when we are reduced to observations on a subatomic
scale, there are additional complications. However, classical thermodynamics
studies systems on a macro scale. In doing so, spurious effects such as the
ones you are referring to can be ignored without any problems. Actuaries,
for example, rely on "the law of large numbers" to make accurate statistical
predictions even though they study (highly complex) people, not single
atoms. Roger

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/28/2001 12:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:


> Subj:RE: CS>Ions vs Particles
> Date:9/28/2001 12:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com (Stephen Quinto)
> Reply-to:  HREF="mailto:squi...@natural-immunogenics.com";>squi...@natural-immunogenics.com
> To:silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger,
> The reason I said the fact of the matter is confounding is this:  the ionic 
> content in a formulation is not quite so simple. The ionic silver content 
> is in all likelihood complexed with whatever impurities were present in the 
> water to begin with or that it has taken from the air.  Such 
> relationships are not easily determined, if at all -- such as AgNO3 to 
> mention one specifically that is likely present in most formulations. Since 
> Nitrogen is #7 in the Atomic chart it is not really detectable even by 
> Inductively coupled Plasma Spectrophotometry although other elements [above 
> 8] that can be detected might be present. 


Stephen: According to the thermodynamics of dilute solutions, the confounding 
effects of impurities such as the ones you are referring to on the activity 
coefficient of Ag+ are negligible. This fact has been demonstrated any number 
of times in simple as well as complex systems. And as long as you brought it 
up, strictly speaking, solubility product calculations are valid ONLY for 
dilute solutions. 
> 
> How materials operate at a sub-nanometer level are full of mystery. I am 
> convinced there is some similarity with homeopathic science, where only the 
> vibrational memory of a particular presence is left in a, for example, 30x 
> dilution.  
> When using a TEM, for example, we are often able to see the effect of 
> electron bombardment on some of the materials, esp those that are neutral 
> but remain susceptible to the electrons. We've seen what look like 
> nanometer-scale chips, cut are really crystals coursing with energy in 
> patterns that resemble computer chips. 
> Anyway I'm not wringing my hands at the challenge, just having 
> difficulty finding time.


Stephen: Admittedly, when we are reduced to observations on a subatomic scale,
 there are additional complications. However, classical thermodynamics 
studies systems on a macro scale. In doing so, spurious effects such as the 
ones you are referring to can be ignored without any problems. Actuaries, for 
example, rely on "the law of large numbers" to make accurate statistical 
predictions even though they study (highly complex) people, not single atoms. 
Roger

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

Roger,
The reason I said the fact of the matter is confounding is this:  the ionic
content in a formulation is not quite so simple. The ionic silver content is
in all likelihood complexed with whatever impurities were present in the
water to begin with or that it has taken from the air.  Such
relationships are not easily determined, if at all -- such as AgNO3 to
mention one specifically that is likely present in most formulations. Since
Nitrogen is #7 in the Atomic chart it is not really detectable even by
Inductively coupled Plasma Spectrophotometry although other elements [above
8] that can be detected might be present.
How materials operate at a sub-nanometer level are full of mystery. I am
convinced there is some similarity with homeopathic science, where only the
vibrational memory of a particular presence is left in a, for example, 30x
dilution.
When using a TEM, for example, we are often able to see the effect of
electron bombardment on some of the materials, esp those that are neutral
but remain susceptible to the electrons. We've seen what look like
nanometer-scale chips, cut are really crystals coursing with energy in
patterns that resemble computer chips.
Anyway I'm not wringing my hands at the challenge, just having
difficulty finding time.
Stephen

  -Original Message-
  From: rogalt...@aol.com [mailto:rogalt...@aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 11:08 AM
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles


  In a message dated 9/28/2001 10:50:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:



Thanks, Roger
guess I did.  But it is not so.  We've got formulations based on our
std 10ppm product of 23ppm 34ppm and higher -- all as might be characterized
as ionic.  The truth is no doubt more complex, ie. there is 'ionic' and
there is 'ionic'.  We're working at a level of scientific inquiry that is
not fully understood.



  Stephen: I think one should not be too quick to wring ones hands in
despair by dismissing the science we have at our disposal as being
inadequate to provide important insights. Please check my calculations. Tell
me where there are oversimplifications, bad assumptions, or just plain
mistakes. As I said before, ionic species are readily definable. There is no
mystique surrounding them as far as I know. Roger

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

2001-09-28 Thread Kehoe

I went to that site and am still amazed that these people have no shame in 
charging an outrageous price for a product that cost them so little to produce 
and package.

CK
  - Original Message - 
  From: K E Nolan 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 7:28 AM
  Subject: CS>Ions vs Particles

  As a newcomer to the less-than-simple CS scene, I have been intrigued over 
the recent debating involving Messrs Quinto, Key, and Anderson - ions or 
particles - which are best in vivo? Perhaps there is another aspect that might 
alter the equation (including the solubility product equations Roger Altman has 
laid out for all). Just came across one web site promoting "ionic silver"

   http://www.feel21.com/cgi-bin/feel21/11221.html

  that claims the real key to long lived silver ions in the body is complexing, 
in their case with citrate (plus potassium; ie potassium citrate?). Perhaps 
that might equally effect "biodelivery" for particles as well. Any 
knowledgeable folks with an opinion?

  sincerely, Kevin Nolan

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/28/2001 10:50:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:

> Thanks, Roger
> guess I did.  But it is not so.  We've got formulations based on our 
> std 10ppm product of 23ppm 34ppm and higher -- all as might be 
> characterized as ionic.  The truth is no doubt more complex, ie. there is 
> 'ionic' and there is 'ionic'.  We're working at a level of scientific 
> inquiry that is not fully understood.

Stephen: I think one should not be too quick to wring ones hands in despair 
by dismissing the science we have at our disposal as being inadequate to 
provide important insights. Please check my calculations. Tell me where there 
are oversimplifications, bad assumptions, or just plain mistakes. As I said 
before, ionic species are readily definable. There is no mystique surrounding 
them as far as I know. Roger

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles

Thanks, Roger
guess I did.  But it is not so.  We've got formulations based on our std
10ppm product of 23ppm 34ppm and higher -- all as might be characterized as
ionic.  The truth is no doubt more complex, ie. there is 'ionic' and there
is 'ionic'.  We're working at a level of scientific inquiry that is not
fully understood. The only way we've been able to demonstrate comparative
differences in efficacy is by the in-vitro work we've been doing over the
last eighteen months.  We've been able to consistently demonstrate the
results of these differences. That's why I can only repeat: there is 'ionic'
and there is 'ionic'.  Best,
Stephen
  -Original Message-
  From: rogalt...@aol.com [mailto:rogalt...@aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:27 AM
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CS>Ions vs Particles


  In a message dated 9/28/2001 10:20:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:



The solubility issue is another matter.  I meant to repond to Roger's
post with the following:  we've seen and worked with products from
concentrations of 3ppm on the low side to 3,200ppm at the upper end -- the
latter one of several formulations that range to 32,000ppm. So
Stephen



  Stephen: Perhaps you've missed the discussion -- over the last several
months -- in which it was put forward (and apparently readily believed by
most) that the solubility limit of ionic silver is 13 PPM. Roger

Re: CS>Ions vs Particles

In a message dated 9/28/2001 10:20:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
squi...@silver.nxlkhost.com writes:


> The solubility issue is another matter.  I meant to repond to Roger's post 
> with the following:  we've seen and worked with products from 
> concentrations of 3ppm on the low side to 3,200ppm at the upper end -- the 
> latter one of several formulations that range to 32,000ppm. So
> Stephen
> 

Stephen: Perhaps you've missed the discussion -- over the last several months 
-- in which it was put forward (and apparently readily believed by most) that 
the solubility limit of ionic silver is 13 PPM. Roger

RE: CS>Ions vs Particles