Re: [SLUG] rs6000
On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Alex JuniorBurger wrote: Anyone had any experience with Linux on a IBM RS6000 7043 166mhz machine ? If so where do I get a distro that works and some info on how to install it ?? I'm guessing that LinuxPPC would be a good bet. There is also a YellowDog distribution for PPC's, I can't remember if that's based on LinuxPPC. You might also want to see if mkLinux has been ported to the architecture... I checked with our IBM technician during his visit today, and he tells me that IBM abr bringing out their own distro for the RS/6000 Q1 2001. No more info than that, but he may be able to get me some URLs for the product in the next week. Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Rachel Polanskis wrote: I read on /. about Applix and Adobe both making annoucements about discontinuing popular products on the Linux platfrom. Personally I believe that Linux has to be a LOT more user friendly before desktop apps are going to be a serious issue. I am a lot more savvy than the average user, and I find myself constantly struggling with configs and installs. My OS's of choice are Mac (desktop) and linux (server). I would love to use linux as a desktop but I just DON"T have the expertise or the time to aquire it. You guys on this list seem to forget how expert you are. I find it intimidating to even ask questions here cos I feel dumb. When distribs are available that are as brain dead to install as a Mac, apps will follow like night follows day. It'll be interesting to see how MacOSX stands up to scrutiny. Best of both worlds? David Applix is begging that free officeware products are biting too hard. What about Adobe? I do not like seeing this sort of thing happen to Linux. Is there not enough demand or is it a case of the market being poorly placed? Personally, I always view Linux myself as a server side platform with the desktop being a more diehard application of the OS. Is this perhaps the same viewpoint as the "marketplace"? Certainly I don't think Linux is alone as requiring more exposure to the desktop market via better and more friendly apps. Solaris has had some help from StarOffice and the recent "expansion pack" with FVWM and GNU utils provided on CD with Solaris 8. It doesn't seem to be suffering the same dearth of applications however. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Problems upgrading debian
Last night I decided to upgrade my second computer to Woody. I seem to have cleared up most of the problems encountered along the way but to remain. One package, 9menu, is in an unconfigured state because the post install script fails. The package is not important it was suggested originally as a useful adjunct to the lwm window manager. I can't configure it with dpkg --configure because of the script failure and I can't purge it with dpkg -P again because of a script failure. How can I remove it? Does any one know if the package is faulty from (say) cse.unsw or is it more likely that the scripts were corrupted in the download? The second problem concerns X. Three packages are listed as ic by dpkg --list | less they are xbase-clients, xdm and xf86setup. As I understand it i tells me that they are to be installed and the c stands for config files but what does this mean? Were the packages not downloaded for the lack of some config files or were they just not installed? What steps must I take to complete the installation? TIA Ken -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:43:35PM +1100, David wrote: Personally I believe that Linux has to be a LOT more user friendly before desktop apps are going to be a serious issue. I am a lot more savvy than the average user, and I find myself constantly struggling with configs and installs. Never having used mac I can't really compare, but installing a basic desktop distro is simple. There is a lot about Linux that is beyond the average user, but if you can install and configure Windows I can't see how you would have trouble installing Linux to the point where you can type letters and surf the web etc. What exactly do you find difficult (desktop wise?). -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] I bent my Woody
This one time, at band camp, Jason Rennie said: 2. Now zope gets an excpetion as it starts up and exits. I don't use zope, but does debian in some way ? I would simply chuck it, unless it was needed. Chuck zope. It's a web publishing backend, and unless you know about it already then you don't need it. -- "This is not an attack! It is a pre-emptive retaliation." (o_ ' //\ v_/_ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Strftime
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 06:20:38PM +1100, Dean Hamstead wrote: Is there a %X (where X is a letter) that returns the current number of the day of the month including suffix (st, nd, th etc) Not sure about strftime but the perl date manipulation module has this facility although your C program will become rather bloated calling perl...may be better rolling your own... (for Debian: apt-get install libdate-manip-perl) man Date::Manip .. %E day of month with suffix - 1st, 2nd,3rd.. Jeff -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Computer Markets was [SLUG]Older i386 looking for buff firewall. Must know how to handle badpackets...
SydLinx wrote: Regarding computer markets, I was wondering if anyone can recommend any of the other markets around Sydney, or warehouses selling computers cheaply? Similarly can anyone recommend which auctions or sales of computer equipment are worth attending. Pickles Computer Auctions are really good but DON'T go there during school holidays. The mums and dads (with kids) fill the rooms and boost the prices. The Granville market I mentioned and North Rocks both have vendors of second hand stuff - some of it worthwhile. Stay well and happy Heracles -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] I bent my Woody
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Jason Rennie wrote: I just got through dist-upgrading my new debian box to woody off of aarnet. Then i recompiled the kernel (2.4.0-test10) and rebooted. I doubt these are kernel probs, but you might as well go for test11, which is now out. If you are going to use test kernels try the latest one and see if anything broken gets fixed :) -- Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: Re:[SLUG] ISP support and Linux
Ihug sales just got spammed by a person on aol.com and have over 5000 email's that they ahev to wade through because the management don't want any potential customers email's to get missed -- Microsoft "Where would you like to go today?" Mac OS "Where are we going tomorow" Linux " Are you coming or what?" -- - Original Message - From: Dave Fitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:12 PM Subject: Re:[SLUG] ISP support and Linux Tom Massey [EMAIL PROTECTED] +OK Was it as good for you, as it was for me? (clean as a baby) Connection closed by foreign host. Now see, this is a *sensible* reason to choose an ISP. The decision should be based on the humour displayed in such messages. Never go for an ISP whose pop server just says goodbye in Japanese when you quit, that would be a bad mistake. :-) funny that was the message displayed by the smartchat one too, maybe it's the pop server default, not set by the ISP? BTW ihug sales don't seem to respond to email but dingoblue sales seem keen and helpful (thanks to the people who recommended ISPs too). Dave. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Quick Debian Question
I think you're after
/etc/apt/sources.list
That's if you're after this file
tank:~# cat /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/debian potato main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org potato/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/debian woody main contrib non-free
deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US potato/non-US main contrib
non-free
deb http://debian.ihug.com.au/debian-non-US potato/non-US main contrib
non-free
deb http://debian.ihug.com.au/debian potato main contrib non-free
Regards
Edward Murphy
--
Microsoft
"Where would you like to go today?"
Mac OS
"Where are we going tomorow"
Linux
" Are you coming or what?"
--
- Original Message -
From: Angus Lees [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Some Linux Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:01 PM
Subject: [SLUG] Re: Quick Debian Question
\begin{Jason Rennie}
It's just a text file that points to the archives you're interested
in.
Here's my one that I use for woody (with comments!):
k
I know it is just a text file, but it would be nice if they left a
verion
around that would work with the different mirrors.
/usr/sbin/apt-config
is that what you meant?
--
- Gus
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
--
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More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Re: x problem..
quote who="Angus Lees" anyway, removing xfree86-common should be enough: apt-get install xfree86-common- (see, its "install" to remove stuff. its almost as good as pressing "start" to find "shutdown") Bah! Gus is only being difficult because he should be doing his thesis. ;) "apt-get remove" makes much more sense. The '-' notation is good for typing one long line of packages to be installed and removed. You can even do apt-get remove emacs vim+ vim-rt+ :) - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- We're kind of like Canada, only we hate ourselves more, and it's wetter around the edges. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Re: x problem..
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:21:56 +1100, Jeff Waugh said: quote who="Angus Lees" anyway, removing xfree86-common should be enough: apt-get install xfree86-common- (see, its "install" to remove stuff. its almost as good as pressing "start" to find "shutdown") Bah! Gus is only being difficult because he should be doing his thesis. ;) "apt-get remove" makes much more sense. The '-' notation is good for typing one long line of packages to be installed and removed. You can even do apt-get remove emacs vim+ vim-rt+ Good grief. Insanity awaits at every turn. :) - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- We're kind of like Canada, only we hate ourselves more, and it's wetter around the edges. And you don't have the huge misfortune of being attached to the USofA. ;-) -Thom -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On 29 Nov, enterfornone scribbled: - On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:43:35PM +1100, David wrote: - - Personally I believe that Linux has to be a LOT more user friendly before - desktop apps are going to be a serious issue. - - I am a lot more savvy than the average user, and I find myself constantly - struggling with configs and installs. - - Never having used mac I can't really compare, but installing a basic - desktop distro is simple. There is a lot about Linux that is beyond - the average user, but if you can install and configure Windows I can't see - how you would have trouble installing Linux to the point where you can - type letters and surf the web etc. - - What exactly do you find difficult (desktop wise?). installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples start... :) -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 09:44:16 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On 29 Nov, enterfornone scribbled: - On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:43:35PM +1100, David wrote: - - Personally I believe that Linux has to be a LOT more user friendly before - desktop apps are going to be a serious issue. - - I am a lot more savvy than the average user, and I find myself constantly - struggling with configs and installs. - - Never having used mac I can't really compare, but installing a basic - desktop distro is simple. There is a lot about Linux that is beyond - the average user, but if you can install and configure Windows I can't see - how you would have trouble installing Linux to the point where you can - type letters and surf the web etc. - - What exactly do you find difficult (desktop wise?). installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples start... :) Hmm. But, if you used a distro to its full power, ie with rpmfind for deadrat or apt-get fro debian, then 99% of software installs are 100% easier, take less time, and work _right_, a considerably more consistantly than on windows. If you happen to be writing the software, or installing brand new, way beyond the bleading edge releases, sure it's gonna be tricky. But you don't get that freedom in Windows. And I can say with no reservations that I'm very very surprised when I can't find something in the debian package system. 3rd party drivers for the kernel are very much a pain, and something does need to happen with that... Guess it comes down to how much pain you wanna cause yourself. -Thom -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Re: Re: x problem..
\begin{Jeff Waugh}
quote who="Angus Lees"
apt-get install xfree86-common-
"apt-get remove" makes much more sense.
heh, you can tell who uses "dpkg --purge"
--
- Gus
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Linux news on slashdot
\begin{[EMAIL PROTECTED]}
installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you
have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to
decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party
software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything -
in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important
it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to
read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign
drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is
just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes
it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big
"install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain
and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd
party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example -
everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by
setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to
make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the
poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples
start... :)
your problem is that the 3rd parties are 3rd.
as soon as nvidia gives up this silly little game, the drivers will be
assimilated and everyone can get on with things.
there is no reason for anyone to be a 3rd party (and we should not
encourage them to be so). after all, "3rd party" is just a euphemism
for "badly integrated".
(and we need to get linux OEM installs going, so users never have to
install. *this* is why the others appear easier)
--
- Gus
--
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Re: [SLUG] rs6000
Jon Biddell wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Alex JuniorBurger wrote: Anyone had any experience with Linux on a IBM RS6000 7043 166mhz machine ? If so where do I get a distro that works and some info on how to install it ?? I'm guessing that LinuxPPC would be a good bet. There is also a YellowDog distribution for PPC's, I can't remember if that's based on LinuxPPC. You might also want to see if mkLinux has been ported to the architecture... I checked with our IBM technician during his visit today, and he tells me that IBM abr bringing out their own distro for the RS/6000 Q1 2001. No more info than that, but he may be able to get me some URLs for the product in the next week. Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug TL has been commissioned by IBM to port Linux to RS/6000 and AS/400 and as mentioned should be finished by mid/end Q1. cheers Michael Sztachanski Snr. Tech. Engineer Turbolinux Pty Ltd Lvl1, 255 George Street Sydney NSW 2000 T: +61 2 9252 6011 F: +61 2 9252 6022 begin:vcard n:Sztachanski;Michael tel;work:+61 2 9252 6011 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Turbolinux (Aust) Pty Ltd adr:;;Lvl 1, 255 Geroge Street;SYDNEY;NSW;2000;AUSTRALIA version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Snr. Technical Engineer fn:Michael Sztachanski end:vcard
Re: [SLUG] Re: Linux news on slashdot
On 30 Nov, Angus Lees scribbled: - - your problem is that the 3rd parties are 3rd. oddly enough that also have the most useful stuff :) - as soon as nvidia gives up this silly little game, the drivers will be - assimilated and everyone can get on with things. i won't say much - I can't (company NDA) but suffice to say they have very good reasons for what they do - and to be honest - the open soruce world needs to grow up and stop seeing things only one-sidedly. nvidia have the fastest hardware. full stop. i have a voodoo5500 here next to me - my test program runs 1/10th of the speed on it compared to my even now, outdated nvidia geforce DDR. matrox is no better - matrdo have a ncie habit of changing hardware and tellign no-one about it - they are also bad abotu specs - ask the guy in the cbue next tome (mark v) who wrote most of the matrox drivers and still maintains and writes them - he';s fed up with matrox - fine - the dirvers are open soruce - but its in SPITE of matrox that they even work (no disrespect to any matrox employees but respone and cooperation from amtrox is not brilliant). nvidia on the other hand are the best bunch of people i have ever had to deal with. I find a bug - it gets fixed - faster than any open soruce project i've seen - and thats zero work for me (no hunting code, finding their bug then fixing it for them -i give them my program that beraks it and they fix it). nvidia do an excellent job. they have by far THe best drivers and they have very good reasons for what they do. it's a cut-throat market in graphics - they just want to survive. people why cry "open source" for the drivers mainyl don't knwo the market, the reasons or whats going on. - there is no reason for anyone to be a 3rd party (and we should not - encourage them to be so). after all, "3rd party" is just a euphemism - for "badly integrated". no - 3rd party is essential - does everyone have to wait for rehdat8 just to get a new driver for their new gfx card they just bought whne the 3rd party can provide it? the pc industry IS an industry of 3rd parties. thsu software follwos the same model. do i have to wait for debain to catch up too just to get my hardware to work? no - if the manufacturer wishes they shoudl be able to provide support (drivers) for linux/Xfree86 for their card on a Cd or whatever with the card - thsu i plug it in - stick cd in drive - click mouse a few times .. bingo - it works. it shoudl not be any mroe work than this - infact even that is too much. i shouldnt even have to click the mouse :) - (and we need to get linux OEM installs going, so users never have to - install. *this* is why the others appear easier) that's what we do :) the problem is users like to re-install - something like 70% of our customers re-install - not because they actually look at the load on the machine and decide they dont like it (hell they can cusotmize the load on their machine on the web when they order) - they do it just out of principle - not for a good reason. user chaneg their hardwer eventually - like get a new gfx card, new sound card, new cpu and so on... that experience shoudl be a painless experience - it's one of the things that makes the PC good - they you can just change hardware bits at will - but it means a lot more work in software... and linux is far from being at that point. -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Linux news on slashdot
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:12:34PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: people why cry "open source" for the drivers mainyl don't knwo the market, the reasons or whats going on. I admit, I don't know the market. But I've never understood the need for closed source drivers. The argument is usually along the lines of "if we open source our drivers our competitors will reimplement our product". But a driver should just be an interface between the OS and the device. All of the implementation should be in hardware, giving away the interface isn't going to help your competitors reimplement your device (it may help them make a compatible device, but who would make a card that is compatible, but slower than existing video cards). The only reason I can think of for proprietary drivers would be in the case of devices such as winmodems that do most of their work in software. In the case of video cards I would hope that this isn't an issue. -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
(BTW, anyone else finding slash less than satisfying these days?) Rachel: Applix is begging that free officeware products are biting too hard. What about Adobe? I do not like seeing this sort of thing happen to Linux. Is there not enough demand or is it a case of the market being poorly placed? I think the demand is quite small. Applix would have been very affected by StarOffice. Adobe's reasoning is harder to guess. Both these products (perhaps not so much frame), as is WordPerfect, are mass market, boxed products. I would be particularly interested in how well products such as the KIA compiler and EDO and CAD tools go. These are expensive, very limited market products. Personally, I always view Linux myself as a server side platform with the desktop being a more diehard application of the OS. Is this perhaps the same viewpoint as the "marketplace"? I guess companies that get involved with Free Software have to be fairly hard headed. I feel that some have rushed in to try to take advantage of a trendy movement, without looking deeply at the consequences. For large corporations, the advantages are there. They leverage enormous development advantages to quickly fill gaps in their product lines. I'm thinking IBM here. At the same time, their staff get to showcase and interact with development ideas that otherwise take much longer to get up (or are headed to very narrow ends). SGI similarly. The results can be mixed. For example, I would have to say a lot of people had expectations that Mozilla would 'beat IE', in the sense that the wider community would wake up to the impact of Open Source software. (This will never happen with a media that sings the song of the highest bidder). Indeed, Sun's `freeing' of StarOffice can be seen as drawing a limit to their involvement (in the sense that the alternative was to throw a lot of money at it to make a more competitive commercial product). In this particularly reflective vein, the failure of Ajuba, home of Tcl/Tk, to make a commercial success of products and services is also a marking point. Perhaps there are several thoughts we can draw from this. Failure is a constancy in the commercial software world. For every hit product there are thousands that aren't. Perhaps with the maturity of Linux we simply shouldn't be surprised that commercial products fail in our area. Another aspect of this failure is that although a product or company fails, should you, the user, also be brought down? What protections do we have? We don't have an independant escrow system for commercial software. The only really secure way is to use Free or OpenSource software. Rachel asks specifically about Sun. I actually think that unlike IBM and SGI, they don't have a well formulated company plan or strategy to deal with either Free or OpenSource software. Sure, individual units are very savvy and supportive, but this isn't as pervasive as I think it needs to be for the long term. For example, Sun's Java efforts would benefit enormously (technically at least) by developing better links and feedback mechanisms with the Free groups. In conclusion, I would guess that we should expect some 'one hit wonders', lot's of failures, but life to go on. The road is bumpy and winding, but the journey is pleasant, with exciting scenery and enjoyable company. Thanks for reading this long post. Jamie -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Misprint
I wrote: as the KIA compiler and EDO and CAD tools go I think I have memory on the brain. I meant EDA (electronic design ..something..) - circuit design, electronic manufacturing etc. Jamie -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Re: Re: x problem..
quote who="Angus Lees" "apt-get remove" makes much more sense. heh, you can tell who uses "dpkg --purge" lazarus: ~ $ dpkg -l | grep ^rc lazarus: ~ $ :P - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- make: *** No rule to make target `whoopee'. Stop. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Jamie Honan wrote:
(BTW, anyone else finding slash less than satisfying these days?)
I gave up on slashdot over a year ago. It was when they started trying
to fool readers. I subs to Humourix for jokes.
Applix would have been very affected by StarOffice. Adobe's reasoning
is harder to guess.
Applix had some faults from the start that took a while to clear up,
particularly saying it includes mail when it didn't work, then charging
you the same price again to upgrade. Star Office didn't really have any
competition - it was free and applix offered less, but didn't do it
better.
I never seriously used their DB interface (applix), which I understand
was good and liked.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.woa.com.au
WOA Computer Services lan/wan, linux/unix, novell
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
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Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Rachel Polanskis wrote: Sluggers, I read on /. about Applix and Adobe both making annoucements about discontinuing popular products on the Linux platfrom. Applix is begging that free officeware products are biting too hard. What about Adobe? This is not as bad as it may seem at first glance. I believe Applix has mealy discontinued it's desktop version in favor of a server version (as in ASP version) that they are working on. As far as FrameMaker is concerned, I work for a large print company with a substantial DTP and Output Bureau and in my three years here, we have had a call for FrameMaker on about 5 occasions. If it's that scarce on Windows you can imagine how scarce it is on Linux. Lets not kid ourselves support from commercial software vendors is important if Linux is to succeed on the desktop, however these two products we can probably live without :) Regards Brett -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] BAckspace under X
Debian Woody System. Everything going fine. Then from a console I
killed X ('killall gdm') to see if it would make any difference with my
sound problem - it didn't. I started gdm back up, but teh backspace key
wont work - it just beeps. I rebooted teh entire system - same
problem. backspace works fine on teh console but not under X.
What can I do to fix this? I really have no idea where to start, since
I didn't change anything prior to it happening.
- Doug
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Re: [SLUG] Re: Linux news on slashdot
On 30 Nov, enterfornone scribbled: - On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:12:34PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - - people why cry "open source" for the drivers mainyl don't knwo the - market, the reasons or whats going on. - - I admit, I don't know the market. But I've never understood the need for - closed source drivers. The argument is usually along the lines of - "if we open source our drivers our competitors will reimplement our - product". But a driver should just be an interface between the OS and the - device. All of the implementation should be in hardware, giving away the - interface isn't going to help your competitors reimplement your device - (it may help them make a compatible device, but who would make a card that - is compatible, but slower than existing video cards). not with opengl. nvidia has opensourced specs for 2D - but their 3D is "Sacred" as oepngls is mroe than just programming registers - a lot fo their drivers have highyl optmized geometry calculation code theat thigns cal fall back on - that is part of their product - not only is their hardware better - their drivers are as fast as can be - minimizing the time taken form application request to display. they have had code stolen before by other vendors and do not want that to happen again - once bitten twice shy. they have very special hardware they also dont want peole seeing too much of the innards of - any smart engineer can easily figure out what their hardware is doign and get a leapfrog advantage if they can see how at the lowest level its programmed - it's amazing how much low level programming information reveals if you knw how to use it. most poepl don't understand this and thats why they don't understand why nvidia are hesitant. they still provide the good aspects of opensource - they listen to bug reports and fix them fast with good turnarounds. - The only reason I can think of for proprietary drivers would be in the - case of devices such as winmodems that do most of their work in software. - In the case of video cards I would hope that this isn't an issue. not true with opengl due it its might higher level nature. -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples start... :) I agree with Mr Raster. But my question is do you want things simple? Remembering that simplicity removes control and increases ambiguity. Personally i like getting source, un tarring, configuring, haking the makefile a little sometimes and getting it going. Ultimately it comes down to whom software is being developed for. IMO linux is good as is, spending alot of time these days in OS's that really arent ment for the faint hearted (openbsd for example) has really brought this to light for me. As a Unix admin the powers that be want stuff done and (for me) they dont care how. They're happy when it costs less and is an effective solution and that suits me fine. I also think theirs a limit as to how user friendly computers can be with out AI. I mean, for some people a mouse is hard to use, and reading error messages is really a big task. As for nvidia, well i dont buy 3dfx cards because they are value for money =) (has anyone got nvidia cards to run accelerated on 2.4.x??) Dean -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On 30 Nov, Dean Hamstead scribbled: - installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you - have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to - decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party - software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important - it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to - read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign - drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is - just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes - it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big - "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain - and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd - party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by - setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to - make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the - poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples - start... :) - - - I agree with Mr Raster. But my question is do you want things simple? - Remembering that simplicity removes control and increases ambiguity. absolutely true... thats what the "advanced..." button is for :) novices need not go anywhere near the button and things should "just work" :) - Personally i like getting source, un tarring, configuring, haking the - makefile a little sometimes and getting it going. - - Ultimately it comes down to whom software is being developed for. - IMO linux is good as is, spending alot of time these days in OS's that - really arent ment for the faint hearted (openbsd for example) has really - brought this to light for me. linux is a developers OS - if you write code you're fine - anbd if you liek hackign code.. but god forgive anyone's grandmother who has to deal with linux on her own... :) - As a Unix admin the powers that be want stuff done and (for me) they - dont care how. They're happy when it costs less and is an effective - solution and that suits me fine. - - I also think theirs a limit as to how user friendly computers can be - with - out AI. I mean, for some people a mouse is hard to use, and reading - error - messages is really a big task. those people should fail the "computer user license test" :) we need people to be licensed :) - As for nvidia, well i dont buy 3dfx cards because they are value for - money =) - - (has anyone got nvidia cards to run accelerated on 2.4.x??) haven't tried but god damn are the fast and purty on my 2.2.x systems - i love playing quake 3 at 100fps at 1600x1200 :) -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Linux news on slashdot
"install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples start... :) snip there is no reason for anyone to be a 3rd party (and we should not encourage them to be so). after all, "3rd party" is just a euphemism for "badly integrated". thats one for the slug pearls. As for rasters comment son redhat, I dont think thats an accurate comparison as redhat basically bundles the software. Sure they pay for and write alot of stuff, but they arent the "first party" so dling the latest kernel and updating isnt really getting 3rd party stuff. I think the term 3rd party is hard to apply to linux. (and we need to get linux OEM installs going, so users never have to install. *this* is why the others appear easier) VA doesnt ship cheaply to aus, nor is it timely. How bout they set up shop here, but keep all profits in australia (VAus Linux?) , then i can go work for va while im still in my teens *grin*. Dean -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Dean Hamstead wrote: As for nvidia, well i dont buy 3dfx cards because they are value for money =) (has anyone got nvidia cards to run accelerated on 2.4.x??) I don't even know how to tell if mine is running accelerated under 3.3.6. :) Not that I really care - it works, runs at 1600x1200 in 32 bpp mode, and I can live with that. :-) DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Return Values
Slugs, Im calling the convert binary (which is part of Image Majick) and getting a reutrn val of 126. I cant find anything that this reverences to. Ive downloaded the source and done a dirty big recursive grep but nothing. Any clues? Matta -- Matt Allen Linux/PHP eCommerce Solutions Linux Worx Linux Networking www.linuxworx.com.auConsulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0413 777 771 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:44:16 you wrote: installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you Not with apt. I'm sorry Raster, but running "apt-get install gnomehack" (for example) and having the correct version downloaded, installed, configured with all it's dependencies is something I've never seen in 10 years of supporting Windows. Many's the time myself or users have installed something that either broke an installed library or need more things to be downloaded to work properly. My grandma can't handle that. have to find the right file - read a readme - figure out how to I haven't read a README since going to Debian to get an application to work. I'm still unsure whether that's good or bad. decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain Uninstall doesn't work properly nine times out of 10. apt-get remove gnomehack works everytime. and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines by setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how to make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples start... :) I think your perspective is where we differ. You use Linux on the bleeding edge, so close you're falling off (points for recognising the quote). You use windows as a closed product - this is equivalent to buying RH/SuSE/Corel and not tampering with it when it's installed. just adding apps that run on it. I don't think there's any real basis for comparison between a heavily hacked Linux system and Windows, unless you're also working with the windows source code and trying to do similar things with that system as you are to Linux. I'm just a lowly admin/user. I do *NOT* want to hack code, I want things to just work and work properly. This is what lead me from Windows to Linux and eventually, Debian. My servers and desktops are just smooth and my grandma can use them providing I have installed her system correctly. I'm not going to say that Linux is good for the brain dead user, it's not, never will be, even when the interface improves. Windows/MacOS are for passengers, Linux is for people who like to be in control of their vehicle(s). -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Never having used mac I can't really compare, but installing a basic desktop distro is simple. There is a lot about Linux that is beyond the average user, but if you can install and configure Windows I can't see how you would have trouble installing Linux to the point where you can type letters and surf the web etc. OK if you're a newbie and you want to surf the web or type letters how would you go about it?? What app to surf with?? Connection to the net?? And remember most people can't even operate MS Dial Up Networking, let along get to grips with pppd etc.. Seeing there are a number of distro's now configuring net conxions for you during install that might be taken care of. But what about this letter.. Where's Word??? :-) Or even Notepad??? What exactly do you find difficult (desktop wise?). Nothing difficult really just often time consuming which you don't always have. Probably the cause for more than a few people to give up linux. Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
snipt Hmm. But, if you used a distro to its full power, ie with rpmfind for deadrat or apt-get fro debian, then 99% of software installs are 100% easier, take less time, and work _right_, a considerably more consistantly than on windows. If you happen to be writing the software, or installing brand new, way beyond the bleading edge releases, sure it's gonna be tricky. But you don't get that freedom in Windows. I agree but what about non-bleeding edge stuff. I was playing around with debian and loving apt-get except it was amazing how many times I found the version available was way behind the latest one. and I'm not referring to the latest devel bleeding edge one. I'm talking about the latest stable releases of a number of things. And what about things like Xfree 4. last time I looked anything apt-getable was still in development and not to be taken lightly. As usual things might have changed recently but Xf4 has been out for a while... I hear people say well upgrade to woody or whatever. Well that's all well and good but if woody is so stable and great why not release Deb 2.3?? Don't get me wrong apt-get is great and it's kept me with debian even when there are plenty of things pushing me away.. but there are still places where Linux is lagging behind... Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thursday 30 November 2000 11:16, Craige McWhirter wrote: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:44:16 you wrote: installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you Not with apt. I'm sorry Raster, but running "apt-get install gnomehack" (for example) and having the correct version downloaded, installed, configured with all it's dependencies is something I've never seen in 10 years of supporting Windows. Many's the time myself or users have installed something that either broke an installed library or need more things to be downloaded to work properly. My grandma can't handle that. You are right that linux cleverly works out dependancies and automating stuff when you install things. But lets not degrade this to a Windows vs Linux debate. What Raster is saying is how things should be on any platform. I'm sure Windows doesn't meet that standard either. Ideally you shouldn't even have to install things, they are there as you need them, you only have to think about installing the software when it involves some kind of monetary transaction for example. (an example is you are browsing the web and a page requires flash, what should happen is the plugin is installed automatically and you view the flash content without rebooting or re-running the browser. and ofcourse a user should be able to select an advanced user setting if they don't want that to happen). For "apt-get" you have to type stuff in. I dare anyone to either unplug their keyboard for a day or not use a terminal/shell. But it's not all that bad. Linux (the kernel) is beginning to be used in embedded devices, in things like set-top boxes and handheld devices and other places where a keyboard isn't even avaliable. John -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
I wasn't going to get onto this thread, cos I'm a Mac person struggling with Linux and getting by, not an IT professional. LINUX IS NOT EASY. The trouble with this list is that nearly everyone is an IT pro, and has no idea what it's like to struggle with config files and arcane syntax. When running apps on a linux desktop distrib. (that has yet to be invented) is as brain-dead as installing on a mac, then apps will follow like day follows night. Until then, Linux is a fabulous server OS and a marginal desktop for the boffins. David -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
I think the demand is quite small. When compared to the MS market.. REAL small. I guess companies that get involved with Free Software have to be fairly hard headed. I feel that some have rushed in to try to take advantage of a trendy movement, without looking deeply at the consequences. I agree I think this has happened on more than one occassion alas then making things look bad when it doesn't work.. The results can be mixed. For example, I would have to say a lot of people had expectations that Mozilla would 'beat IE', in the sense that the wider community would wake up to the impact of Open Source software. (This will never happen with a media that sings the song of the highest bidder). In this particularly reflective vein, the failure of Ajuba, home of Tcl/Tk, to make a commercial success of products and services is also a marking point. Sometimes I think the "failure" of things like this is as much the fault of the Linux/OS/FS/insert fav group of geeks Community as anyone. It's a big boys club (with a few girls :-)) and the entry/dress requirements are written in machine code at the door. The invitations to meetings are posted on a Bulletin board that has access to no-one so you have to hack your way in and then when you get there they are written in CPM aseembler. The much touted Open Source community is becoming very Closed Source to people. Some of the hackers and gurus and movers and shakers relate better to lines of code than they do to newbies who are geniunely interested in helping out. It hasn't always been like this. I think maybe it has something to do with Linux becoming "trendy" and a wave of "AOLers" starting to use it cause it's the thing to be seen doing. But whatever the reasons it's adversely affecting things. The community needs people to survive. Aoler's or not. and it especially needs people who are willing to put time in and help (think how useful Slug would be if that weren't the case) and it needs the community as a whole to accept and welcome these peopl even if they don't know the difference between a motherboard and a CPU. PErsonally speaking I'll take enthusiasm over experience any time, especially in this vein. In conclusion, I would guess that we should expect some 'one hit wonders', lot's of failures, but life to go on. The road is bumpy and winding, but the journey is pleasant, with exciting scenery and enjoyable company. Well I guess we just have to hope the neighbours dont decide that one day they no longer want visitors... :-) Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
snipt - I also think theirs a limit as to how user friendly computers can be - with - out AI. I mean, for some people a mouse is hard to use, and reading - error - messages is really a big task. those people should fail the "computer user license test" :) we need people to be licensed :) LOL but we also have to accept that just as there are a large number of people on the road who should be anywhere but, the same applies to in front of the puter screen and they have money to spend just like the rest of them. And in the end that's what it comes down to. Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
quote who="Dan Treacy" And what about things like Xfree 4. last time I looked anything apt-getable was still in development and not to be taken lightly. As usual things might have changed recently but Xf4 has been out for a while... XFree 4 has now entered unstable main, and it's being updated every few days, which is kind of alarming stuck on the end of a 56k modem. There's a big difference between shipping out a few X binaries, and doing it The Right Way, especially when you have a lot of people on the receiving end... You're used to the quality and foolhardiness of other Debian packages, why would X be done differently? Also, XFree4 has changed quite considerably in terms of files, libraries, etc., and getting that right 'first time' was simply not going to happen. I hear people say well upgrade to woody or whatever. Well that's all well and good but if woody is so stable and great why not release Deb 2.3?? The stable tree's best feature is the lack of updates. That's why it's there. Critical updates and security fixes are backported, so you can rely on the consistency of a given *version of Debian*. It's not a bunch of packages lumped together - it's an operating system. (Great for sysadmins and people who never want to "update unnecessarily".) That said, I hope there isn't such a long gap between stable releases as there was between slink and potato. Cool new features make releases hard. If you're running a desktop machine that you can handle yourself, then go for woody. Reiteration: It's not the software that's unstable, it's the distribution. Don't get me wrong apt-get is great and it's kept me with debian even when there are plenty of things pushing me away.. but there are still places where Linux is lagging behind... Some might say that Debian offers the best infrastructure and development method to bring Linux over the top. It's certainly the strongest distribution in terms of policy and standardisation. - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- - What inspired you to become a bus driver? - Linus Torvalds. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
My opinions on ease of installation: 1. Linux can beat Windows anyday on ease of installation if the vendors want to. Observe StarOffice's install. Most developers don't go to this length, unfortunately. Geeks can always continue to use make, the command line installer, etc. Nobody is going to take that away from you. 2. Beyond that, gettng apps to cooperate needs work. Linux desktops are getting there. 3. Dan's points about training after install is very valid. It's often not the install, but what next. But... 4. The desktop is still not friendly enough. We need more information appliances. There's this surfer box called the Netgem with Linux embedded. You wouldn't know it if you hadn't spotted Tux on the box though. Plug it into your cable modem, and go (well there are a couple of fields to fill in the config form). Has an embedded mail program and web browser. Simple, but sufficient for quick tasks. This is the sort of thing grandmothers will want to use for email. Forget Lookout, forget Eudora, forget Nutscrape, those are just too hard. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
quote who="John Ryland" For "apt-get" you have to type stuff in. I dare anyone to either unplug their keyboard for a day or not use a terminal/shell. Have a look at gnome-apt, aptitude and auto-apt (the cunningest of the three, which Gus pointed out not too long ago). If I couldn't use a terminal, I couldn't read my mail. :) But it's not all that bad. Linux (the kernel) is beginning to be used in embedded devices, in things like set-top boxes and handheld devices and other places where a keyboard isn't even avaliable. gtkfb! Qt/Embedded! Very exciting stuff. I think this is where some serious UI innovation will occur, largely unrelated to what we see on our desktops. All this WIMP stuff is silly when all I want is, say, a phonebook/contacts list and a recipe database on the terminal in the kitchen. :) - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- We're kind of like Canada, only we hate ourselves more, and it's wetter around the edges. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] ISP support and Linux
IHUG Satnet works with Linux. I have it going with a Telemann SM200 card in text mode. I also had it going in Graphic (X) mode, but I don't need that overhead since it is only a proxy server, that I use as a gateway. Bernhard -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Heracles Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 11:41 PM To: Edward Murphy Cc: Jason Rennie; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SLUG] ISP support and Linux Edward Murphy wrote: Well speaking from a helpdesk point of view the helldesk I work for (ihug) don't officially support linux but if you were to call up and need support their is someone there that would be more then glad to help them out. We even provide drivers for our Satelite product (Ultra/satnet) for a linux 2.2 kernel. I contacted iHug sales by email asking about Satnet and they did not even bother to reply. Says a lot! Stay well and happy Heracles -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Hi all,
Well, I have tried installing packages on Linux
- Copying over tarballs,
- RPM through command line
- RPM through GUI (old version; broke often)
and on Solaris:
- Copying over tarballs,
- Installing through package manager
- Installing through self-extracting zips (YUK)
- Installing through a Java applet
and on Windows:
- Copying over zipfiles
- Installing through installshield rebooting
- Installing through a Java applet rebooting
I think my favourite for a general application (ie non-system stuff) would
have to be the Java applets. OK, they start off slowly but at least you can
see what they are going to do (use the source, Luke), they don't have to run
full screen and you can always go back and manually copy the stuff over if
you want to.
And they uninstall cleanly.
I think the full-screen installshield method beloved of 'doze apps sucks
majorly.
The major problem with tarballs/zipfiles is they don't end up in the package
managers' view of the world and uninstalling them can be a hassle.
One installation I played with (some Sun stuff) had the choice: You could
install using the command line package manager (pkgadd, a la apt-get), you
could install using the GUI admintool, or you could run the applet on the CD
which put up a pretty picture and gave you options in a GUI (running a java
applet).
Anyone installing Hummingbird Exceed on PCs will know about this style of
installation, too ('cept you have to reboot afterwards).
At least you get the choice!
As for old commercial software not being supported on Linux, well so what?
Those who need the software will continue to use it on legacy machines. I
don't see that commercial software running on Linux means that "all old
software we ever wrote will continue to be supported on all operating
systems". It was closed source stuff; that means if the company no longer
supports it, you can't have it. Try buying a brand new VK Commodore.
I think /. gets carried away with itself sometimes...
Cheers,
Jill.
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Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On 30 Nov, Craige McWhirter scribbled: - - On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:44:16 you wrote: - - installing software on linux is a pain - compared to windows. - you - - Not with apt. I'm sorry Raster, but running "apt-get install gnomehack" - (for example) and having the correct version downloaded, installed, - configured with all it's dependencies is something I've never seen in 10 years - of supporting Windows. Many's the time myself or users have installed - something that either broke an installed library or need more things to be - downloaded to work properly. My grandma can't handle that. I have a debain machine - mine at home.. and yes it's gerat apt gets stuff for you.. but thats such a minor thing... i've got many games.. they just "install" and work - they have any dependancies they may need on the cd (directx etc.) - just hit install and keep hitting next.. done. windwos for me has always "just worked" - I haven't read a README since going to Debian to get an application to - work. I'm still unsure whether that's good or bad. i've had to read many.. like man pages for dhcpd which chanegdc config file formats.. and if i wasnt so familiar with X and nvidia i'd have spent a god extra few days getting X up.. but i've done it before so many times i can roll my own xf86config off the top of my head for xf4. - decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party - software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's - important - it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to - read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign - drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software - is - just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows - takes - it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big - "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain - - Uninstall doesn't work properly nine times out of 10. apt-get remove - gnomehack works everytime. uninstall in windows has never failed for me. i've used it many times. - and wokr than linux. linxu means u have to be nigh a guru to get 3rd - party drivers working - getting nvidia's 3d to work is an example - - everyone at work seems to keep coming to me to "fix" their machines - by - setting this up because i'm one of the few guys around who knwos how - to - make it work - and this is in engineering at VA... just think of the - poor average joe schmo user... and this is just where the examples - start... :) - - I think your perspective is where we differ. You use Linux on the - bleeding edge, so close you're falling off (points for recognising the quote). yes i do.. but i do in windows too.. i use my nvidia card there.. its trivial to make it work under windows.. stick driver Cd in.. done. it was such a painless exercise :) - You use windows as a closed product - this is equivalent to buying - RH/SuSE/Corel and not tampering with it when it's installed. just adding apps - that run on it. I don't think there's any real basis for comparison - between a heavily hacked Linux system and Windows, unless you're also working - with the windows source code and trying to do similar things with that - system as you are to Linux. BUT under windows my hardware i bought just works.. becuase drivers come with it... linxu fails miserably in supporting a fair bit of hardware... and huntign the drivers is somehting quite painful. - I'm just a lowly admin/user. I do *NOT* want to hack code, I want things - to just work and work properly. This is what lead me from Windows to - Linux and eventually, Debian. My servers and desktops are just smooth and my - grandma can use them providing I have installed her system correctly. aah "providing" - could she do it herself tho? :) - I'm not going to say that Linux is good for the brain dead user, it's - not, never will be, even when the interface improves. Windows/MacOS are for - passengers, Linux is for people who like to be in control of their - vehicle(s). we have to realise its far from perfect - far far far. it's come a logn way.. but has a lot further to go. -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On 30 Nov, David scribbled: - - I wasn't going to get onto this thread, cos I'm a Mac person struggling - with Linux and getting by, not an IT professional. - - LINUX IS NOT EASY. - - The trouble with this list is that nearly everyone is an IT pro, and has - no idea what it's like to struggle with config files and arcane syntax. luckily for some of you people liek me come form the amiga world - linux is so arcane and wierd with its config fielsa and everyhting its own syntax - in strange illogical places i hope to do my bit in fixing this... :) i use linux - its flexible and i like that.. but it has a LONG way to go.. if we sit and gloat in thinking its great... we're stupid to "rest on our own laurels" even though those laurels arent' great. what we need to do is acknowledge that we fall a long way short and in many ways other OS's coem a lot closer in some respects. - When running apps on a linux desktop distrib. (that has yet to be - invented) is as brain-dead as installing on a mac, then apps will follow - like day follows night. Until then, Linux is a fabulous server OS and a - marginal desktop for the boffins. - - David - - - -- --- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] auto-installation of plugins ???
sure Windows doesn't meet that standard either. Ideally you shouldn't even have to install things, they are there as you need them, you only have to think about installing the software when it involves some kind of monetary transaction for example. (an example is you are browsing the web and a page requires flash, what should happen is the plugin is installed automatically *no way* someone install something onto your machine without your knowing ? uuurrgh :) Saliya -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Ease of use.
1. Any OS is hard to use when you have no skills. I watched a 60 year old play with their new iMac, didn't have a clue. I had a guess but really had no idea where or how to find anything myself. The experienced Mac person seamed to know where everything was within one or two clicks, because he had the knowledge. 2. Linux is for everyone. Linux use ranges from embeded systems, dedicated terminals, desktops through to servers and clusters. They are all different and don't work the same, my server can be totally different in setup to your net appliance. Thats cool. 3. Linux is not for everyone. Some people don't like Linux, they prefer to use something else. Some people catch public transport, some people even ride motorbikes. Society is diverse and therefore the software world will be diverse as well. "In the future lies a post-Windows world where diversity is taken for granted. [Joe Barr]" 4. Should I feel bad just because I am experianced? In SLUG people talk shop. When I go to a dinner party and someone starts talking about computers, I keep it simple and usually say as little as possible. When I am in the compter room I rarely hold back and talk deep and difficult not to concerned who gets left behind. Thats how people learn, some absorb, some clarify with questions, some ask for more info. When you stand in the computer room don't be put off by all the people talking. If you ask a question that is simple you will hopefully get a simple answer, or if someone does not recognise you. But _please_ don't expect everyone to stop talking just because you entered the room. I don't think anyone here sees people as inferiour, maybe some people just perceive themselves that way. 5. Discussion is healthy. Discussion of what makes something good or bad, such as Linux is great. Especially when something like Linux can be streatched in many ways. Back to my coding. Rodos -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Learn more about Linux, visit a local users group and Camion Technology | become part of a community. [http://www.slug.org.au/] +61 2 9873 5105 | -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
I haven't read a README since going to Debian to get an application to work. I'm still unsure whether that's good or bad. decompress/run/do somethngt with that file - get a Cd of 3rd party software (linux has distros - but they will never answer everything - in the end 3rd party is going to be the "big thing" and it's important it gets worked out) and you actually have to go to a lot of effort to read the readme - set things up (quake3 is an example) - installign drivers is a real pain. under windows installing 4rd party software is just a matter of sticking the CD in - same with drivers. windows takes it from there - pops up the autorun thing -where you get a nice big "install me" button or "uninstall" etc. - its just so much less pain Uninstall doesn't work properly nine times out of 10. apt-get remove gnomehack works everytime. Uninstall is good with rpm -e, you know everything is pretty much removed that was added. I think your perspective is where we differ. You use Linux on the bleeding edge, so close you're falling off (points for recognising the quote). You use windows as a closed product - this is equivalent to buying RH/SuSE/Corel and not tampering with it when it's installed. just adding apps that run on it. I don't think there's any real basis for comparison between a heavily hacked Linux system and Windows, unless you're also working with the windows source code and trying to do similar things with that system as you are to Linux. I'm just a lowly admin/user. I do *NOT* want to hack code, I want things to just work and work properly. This is what lead me from Windows to Linux and eventually, Debian. My servers and desktops are just smooth and my grandma can use them providing I have installed her system correctly. I'm not going to say that Linux is good for the brain dead user, it's not, never will be, even when the interface improves. Windows/MacOS are for passengers, Linux is for people who like to be in control of their vehicle(s). The difference is drive i think. Linux doesnt sell, thats why it doesnt need to be simplified. Redhat etc are trying to sell it, and to sell more they are focusing on simplification. Fine. But Im worried when people say "linux must become more simple" "linux must be easier to use" if it wants to get on the desktop, as if being on the desktop is a conquest. IMO being on the servers is more of a conquest. Think about it? what is more difficult to achieve? Happy simple interface, or rock solid performance? Ultimately an OS that is both simple and complex (which is how linux is going) i want to be able to pop the hood strap on some extractors and catalitic converters and hear my baby roar =) Dean "I luv unix, bow down" Hamstead -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Ease of use.
Here here. Linux is made by the people for the people. Thats whats great about it, we arent told what were gunna get, we make it ourselves. If you dont like something, the nature of linux allows you to enhance or replace. Linux is also not an OS which is driven by profit (for the most part) as such, people who write apps write them how they want them. Be it easy for other to use, or very technically oriented. Dean Rodos wrote: 1. Any OS is hard to use when you have no skills. I watched a 60 year old play with their new iMac, didn't have a clue. I had a guess but really had no idea where or how to find anything myself. The experienced Mac person seamed to know where everything was within one or two clicks, because he had the knowledge. 2. Linux is for everyone. Linux use ranges from embeded systems, dedicated terminals, desktops through to servers and clusters. They are all different and don't work the same, my server can be totally different in setup to your net appliance. Thats cool. 3. Linux is not for everyone. Some people don't like Linux, they prefer to use something else. Some people catch public transport, some people even ride motorbikes. Society is diverse and therefore the software world will be diverse as well. "In the future lies a post-Windows world where diversity is taken for granted. [Joe Barr]" 4. Should I feel bad just because I am experianced? In SLUG people talk shop. When I go to a dinner party and someone starts talking about computers, I keep it simple and usually say as little as possible. When I am in the compter room I rarely hold back and talk deep and difficult not to concerned who gets left behind. Thats how people learn, some absorb, some clarify with questions, some ask for more info. When you stand in the computer room don't be put off by all the people talking. If you ask a question that is simple you will hopefully get a simple answer, or if someone does not recognise you. But _please_ don't expect everyone to stop talking just because you entered the room. I don't think anyone here sees people as inferiour, maybe some people just perceive themselves that way. 5. Discussion is healthy. Discussion of what makes something good or bad, such as Linux is great. Especially when something like Linux can be streatched in many ways. Back to my coding. Rodos -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Learn more about Linux, visit a local users group and Camion Technology | become part of a community. [http://www.slug.org.au/] +61 2 9873 5105 | -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] dnsdomainname
OK this is driving me crazy. I've fixed it once before but can't remember how. I have a debian box and if you run dnsdomainname it just returns nothing instead of printing out the domain. Where on earth do you set it? -- John Ferlito Senior Engineer - Bulletproof Networks ph: +61 (0) 410 519 382 http://www.bulletproof.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] dnsdomainname
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 02:36:21PM +1100, John Ferlito wrote: OK this is driving me crazy. I've fixed it once before but can't remember how. I have a debian box and if you run dnsdomainname it just returns nothing instead of printing out the domain. Where on earth do you set it? worked it out either dns or /etc/hosts needs to be setup right. -- John Ferlito Senior Engineer - Bulletproof Networks ph: +61 (0) 410 519 382 http://www.bulletproof.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- John Ferlito Senior Engineer - Bulletproof Networks ph: +61 (0) 410 519 382 http://www.bulletproof.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] dnsdomainname
hostname this value is also stored in /etc/HOSTNAME and often in /etc/sysconf/network Dean John Ferlito wrote: OK this is driving me crazy. I've fixed it once before but can't remember how. I have a debian box and if you run dnsdomainname it just returns nothing instead of printing out the domain. Where on earth do you set it? -- John Ferlito Senior Engineer - Bulletproof Networks ph: +61 (0) 410 519 382 http://www.bulletproof.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
quote who="Dean Hamstead"
But Im worried when people say "linux must become more simple" "linux must
be easier to use" if it wants to get on the desktop, as if being on the
desktop is a conquest.
These are red herrings. "Simple" and "easier to use" are incalculable
metrics, as every person is different, and every task requires a different
perspective.
Familiarity is the key to using a tool effectively, and following from that,
the Rule of Least Surprise is the key to familiarity.
Earlier versions of the MacOS (pre-MacOS branding days, when it was simply
known as "System") were incredibly strong in this regard - similar tasks
were dealt with in similar ways. If you'd never performed a given task
before, you could pretty much guess how to do it from past experience.
(Recent MacOS is showing compound featuritis, much like Windows - the fact
that many Mac users wish they had a second mouse button is proof enough that
the design ethic hasn't continued as strongly into versions 6, 7, and 8.)
The Palm OS also follows least surprise - and it's by no means simple. You
can perform some fairly complex operations across multiple 'applications'
(that is such a misnomer, and a bit of a red herring itself in this case,
but I'll continue with the term for the moment) very easily. The Find tool
is a great example of this in action... It *always* works the same way.
Least surprise is tough in X, where the geeks in next cubicle may run a
different window manager, or even the same as yours, but with fundamental
interface options set differently. The way I use Sawfish is very different
to the default configuration, and my mutt keybindings are *far, far, far*
from the default, enough to make others dizzy.
Least surprise is tough when it comes to package management. I found that
out in the last few days as I used a different OS to the one I'm used to.
Not only were there many different packages of the same software, provided
by different sources, but they all installed differently. Plus, even
packages from the same source put configuration files in wildly different
places, documentation in different places... For each piece of software I
had to relearn some really simple fundamental stuff to get them going
("Where can I find the configuration file for blah?" "Where can I find the
changelog for blurpleschplert?")
This doesn't say "operating system" to me, it says "haphazard grouping of
software". Least surprise would go a long way to improving usability in this
regard. I'm coming to a point where I can't recommend the "most used" Linux
distribution to newbies - it's too damned hard, even if there are a lot of
people around to help.
Linux is a great kernel, we have a lot of kickarse software to go with it,
and there's so many great people involved in doing all of this... We just
need an operating system to tie all these pieces together.
- Jeff
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ --
It's depressing to see such useful code wasted on such a useless
license.
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Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Mus bash raster =) i've had to read many.. like man pages for dhcpd which chanegdc config file formats.. and if i wasnt so familiar with X and nvidia i'd have spent a god extra few days getting X up.. but i've done it before so many times i can roll my own xf86config off the top of my head for xf4. xf86cfg is a gem. - Uninstall doesn't work properly nine times out of 10. apt-get remove - gnomehack works everytime. uninstall in windows has never failed for me. i've used it many times. its not failing, its the waste it leaves behind. Hence the need to format alot if your intalling and uninstalling alot. - I think your perspective is where we differ. You use Linux on the - bleeding edge, so close you're falling off (points for recognising the quote). yes i do.. but i do in windows too.. i use my nvidia card there.. its trivial to make it work under windows.. stick driver Cd in.. done. it was such a painless exercise :) Then theres the fun of driver revisions and the piss weak error message you get. You also have fun with highly specific drivers. - between a heavily hacked Linux system and Windows, unless you're also working - with the windows source code and trying to do similar things with that - system as you are to Linux. BUT under windows my hardware i bought just works.. becuase drivers come with it... linxu fails miserably in supporting a fair bit of hardware... and huntign the drivers is somehting quite painful. Linux is good in the hardware dept. Support for it from good vendors is benefiting unix as a whole. In the past you would have to buy hardware for your unix, i dont perceive this as a problem to system administrators or to people who go out and buy hardware specifically to run linux. The problem is when people buy hardware at bargain prices, no-name hardware or particularly non-standard packages, running windows, then want to "try" linux. - I'm just a lowly admin/user. I do *NOT* want to hack code, I want things - to just work and work properly. This is what lead me from Windows to - Linux and eventually, Debian. My servers and desktops are just smooth and my - grandma can use them providing I have installed her system correctly. aah "providing" - could she do it herself tho? :) Do you want her to do it herself? If you educate your users too much, you run the risk of them suddenly wanting higher wages =) - I'm not going to say that Linux is good for the brain dead user, it's - not, never will be, even when the interface improves. Windows/MacOS are for - passengers, Linux is for people who like to be in control of their - vehicle(s). we have to realise its far from perfect - far far far. it's come a logn way.. but has a lot further to go. Clearly raster wants it to be and im cool with that. But remember that the start interface has been around for 5 - 6 years now, and was based on windows 3. Windows has become a standard that people expect from computers. Its boring, grey with green desktop is a constant that is reasurring to alot of people. Dean "must have my say over and over again" Hamstead -- http://www.penrithcity.nsw.gov.au | Penrith City Council http://www.bong.com.au | BONG LAN Parties [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:26:55AM +1100, DaZZa wrote: I don't even know how to tell if mine is running accelerated under 3.3.6. :) Not that I really care - it works, runs at 1600x1200 in 32 bpp mode, and I can live with that. :-) download the demo of quake3 or soldier of fortune. if it doesn't completely freeze up then you are running accelerated -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:34:07PM +1100, Dan Treacy wrote: Where's Word??? :-) Or even Notepad??? Foot, applications, gnotepad - foot, applications, abiword ok it's probably not all that obvious if you've never used a computer, but finding the same on windows or macos would be just as difficult -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: DNS problem after upgrade to woody
; After upgrading, I am unable to connect to mailserver with fetchmail, ; to remore hosts with apt, telnet, ssh, irc, lynx or mozilla. Messages ; are: unable to resolve host... something wicked happened... domain ; name could not be confirmed... it appears that there is a problem with ; DNS and I have no idea how to resolve it. Help needed and appreciated, Lots of people seemed to have reported this bug, yet it remains (afaik) unresolved. I seem to be affected when trying to use apt, which is very frustrating. r. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, enterfornone wrote: On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:34:07PM +1100, Dan Treacy wrote: Where's Word??? :-) Or even Notepad??? Foot, applications, gnotepad - foot, applications, abiword ok it's probably not all that obvious if you've never used a computer, but finding the same on windows or macos would be just as difficult The geek-divide is bigger than the Grand Canyon! Have you ever asked a Windows luser to create a 'plain text file'? It usually causes brain damage. When I mention 'notepad' all I get back is a blank expression. Nah, this thread has barely touched the depths of computer illiteracy out there. And Windows supposed ease of use goes nowhere near addressing the situation. Heck, the other day I had to intercept and decode a .DAT file attached to a job application reply a friend of mine received via email. She had no idea what to do with it. Of course it was easy to pull it apart in Linux ... not because of Linux, but because I've been programming these beasts for 20+ years. My hapless friend would have no hope in hell in getting anywhere near the data contained in her .DAT file. Sadly, all that 99% of computer users 'out there' are capable of doing is double-click and fill in the blanks. That's it. That is not computer literacy. If you cannot think outside the square, solve little problems like the .DAT file, then you are illiterate. I cannot get over the mass impression that people are somehow born with built-in knowledge of using a WIMP interface like Window or Mac. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This impression has arisen simply from over-exposure to that one medium. Put a boy raised in the jungle in front of a PC as see what happens. (He'll probably do the right thing and use it as a footstool or a projectile!) Anyone can be trained to use WIMP. Anybody can be taught to use a shell. Anyone can type in a command. They just have to be taught. Which brings to mind another thread ... intellectual laziness... but we'll leave that for another day, oh faithful sluggers. -rickw -- Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Anyone can be trained to use WIMP. Anybody can be taught to use a shell. Anyone can type in a command. They just have to be taught. Yeah sure we can train you to add up rows of numbers, but do you want to? Now if you are talking staff who use computers, maybe they should learn more than WIMPs, but if you are talking about a digital artist who just wants morph a photo, why should she learn shell? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Ken Yap wrote: Anyone can be trained to use WIMP. Anybody can be taught to use a shell. Anyone can type in a command. They just have to be taught. Yeah sure we can train you to add up rows of numbers, but do you want to? Now if you are talking staff who use computers, maybe they should learn more than WIMPs, but if you are talking about a digital artist who just wants morph a photo, why should she learn shell? She shouldn't. But no-one is born with the ability to use these beasties. No matter whether it's shell commands, using morphing tools or sending an email ... people have to be taught to use the tools they need to get the job done. I still maintain there is a gross misconception that WIMPs are inherently easier to use and require no training. For some strange reason, those of us raised in the CLI/shell environment years ago are still quite comfortable in it today and prefer it to the GUI. Wonder why? ot Re: the row of numbers, the answer is a definite yet ... I am quite concerned that students are so reliant on calculators that they cannot add up a row of numbers, let alone do a long division by hand. /ot -rick -- Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: dnsdomainname
\begin{John Ferlito}
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 02:36:21PM +1100, John Ferlito wrote:
OK this is driving me crazy. I've fixed it once before but can't
remember how. I have a debian box and if you run dnsdomainname it just
returns nothing instead of printing out the domain. Where on earth do
you set it?
worked it out either dns or /etc/hosts needs to be setup right.
yep, it does a reverse lookup on its ip
"hostname -d -v" should show you that in progress
--
- Gus
--
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Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
She shouldn't. But no-one is born with the ability to use these beasties. No matter whether it's shell commands, using morphing tools Well this supports Dan's point about post install training. I think you are in the minority over WIMPs where *ordinary people* are concerned though. I like CLIs for most things but one way that WIMPs are easier than CLIs is reducing the recall burden, i.e. what command can I use. Why do you think mutt and pine need to put a cheat bar on the screen? A pull-down menu is a nice reminder. Although with awful UIs this problem has just been changed to what menu do I need to pull down. This doesn't necessarily mean users are more productive with WIMPs, witness travel agent systems with their highly optimised keyboard commands. It just means there is a potential for people to be less stressed with WIMPs. Unfortunately WIMPs have been made as complex as CLIs now. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Long awaited Kylix is nearly here
Kylix == Delphi for Linux is nearly hear. Rumoured to be shipping in Q1. Here is a presentation on this RAD tool: http://www.drbob42.com/kylix/index.htm And here is a home page for Kylix. http://www.drbob42.com/kylix/home.htm My predication: Kylix will kick ass :) -rickw -- Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Speaking of ISP - Realms on Zip
Has anyone made the change to "realms" on zip and had any trouble?
My chat part seems to be getting just garbage after login and doesn't
pass over to ppp part, so I thought I'd ask Slug to save re-inventing
the wheel if someone else has already been through this.
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Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Rick Welykochy wrote: I cannot get over the mass impression that people are somehow born with built-in knowledge of using a WIMP interface like Window or Mac. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This impression has arisen simply from over-exposure to that one medium. Put a boy raised in the jungle in front of a PC as see what happens. (He'll probably do the right thing and use it as a footstool or a projectile!) Anyone can be trained to use WIMP. Anybody can be taught to use a shell. Anyone can type in a command. They just have to be taught. A GUI better supports the idea of user exploration, a user can scroll through all the menus in an application to look for the item or command they are after. GUI application also tend to be more forgiving with yes/no ok/cancel boxes and undo feature that give the users the confidence to try things without having to read the manual to find out the full effect of a command. The idea of learning an application still applies to both GUI and CLI apps but GUI apps can use the full power of visual recongnition (size, shape ,colour and position) to allow the user to quickly learn how to perform tasks and recongise status and event indicators. -- +-- Nicholas Wilcox ---+ | It was Thanksgiving in New York, and about the only thing I was | | thankful for was that I didn't live in New Jersey. | + Kinky Friedman --+ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] NOT the /. thread
OK... so now I know that it's lots easier to use Linux than I thought.. There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay abandon. What the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)... what are curses? (dumb question?) ... and lets not even *start* on acronyms Is there a resource for someone to go look it up when the geeks are talking greek? What we used to call a "glossary"? http://www.whatthe!@#$aretheytalkingabout.com.au David For those still interested in that other thread. I installed Mozilla on my G4 MacOS in 15 minutes including download. I installed it on RH6, untarred, guessed what to do and got: [david@fast david]$ /usr/local/package/mozilla /usr/local/package/run-mozilla.sh /usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/usr/local/package LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package:/usr/local/package/components SHLIB_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBPATH=/usr/local/package ADDON_PATH=/usr/local/package MOZ_PROGRAM=/usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZ_TOOLKIT= moz_debug=0 moz_debugger= Registering plugin 0 for: "*","All types",".*" ... then the console hung, so I use Mozilla on Mac, and NS on RH ;-( -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Books for beginners
Dear Slugsters, Hay you slugsters, What would be the best book(s) to aquire for a beginner who is interested in starting a career with Linux and Linux related systems ? Kind regards Antoni -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Mailing list quiet
Is this mailing list been quiet the last few days or am I the only one having difficulties? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NOT the /. thread
Try the Jargon file http://www.jargon.org/ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/ Regards John On Thursday 30 November 2000 15:49, David wrote: OK... so now I know that it's lots easier to use Linux than I thought.. There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay abandon. What the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)... what are curses? (dumb question?) and lets not even *start* on acronyms Is there a resource for someone to go look it up when the geeks are talking greek? What we used to call a "glossary"? http://www.whatthe!@#$aretheytalkingabout.com.au David For those still interested in that other thread. I installed Mozilla on my G4 MacOS in 15 minutes including download. I installed it on RH6, untarred, guessed what to do and got: [david@fast david]$ /usr/local/package/mozilla /usr/local/package/run-mozilla.sh /usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/usr/local/package LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package:/usr/local/package/components SHLIB_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBPATH=/usr/local/package ADDON_PATH=/usr/local/package MOZ_PROGRAM=/usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZ_TOOLKIT= moz_debug=0 moz_debugger= Registering plugin 0 for: "*","All types",".*" then the console hung, so I use Mozilla on Mac, and NS on RH ;-( -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Mailing list quiet
you're the only one, SLUGs not quiet here at all. Cheers, Marty On Thursday, November 30, 2000 4:58 PM, Marshall, Joshua [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Is this mailing list been quiet the last few days or am I the only one having difficulties? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NOT the /. thread
Have you got any books to get you started? When I started out I read "RedHat Linux Unleashed" and as someone who had never seen Unix before it helped immensely - I now make a living from it ;) but that was about 6 years ago. One book that keeps winning readers choice awards is the O'Rielly book "Running Linux" which is a surprisingly thin book - so I hope that means it's to the point not light on. On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:49:51 David wrote: OK... so now I know that it's lots easier to use Linux than I thought.. There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay abandon. What the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)... what are curses? (dumb question?) ... and lets not even *start* on acronyms Is there a resource for someone to go look it up when the geeks are talking greek? What we used to call a "glossary"? http://www.whatthe!@#$aretheytalkingabout.com.au David For those still interested in that other thread. I installed Mozilla on my G4 MacOS in 15 minutes including download. I installed it on RH6, untarred, guessed what to do and got: [david@fast david]$ /usr/local/package/mozilla /usr/local/package/run-mozilla.sh /usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/usr/local/package LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/package:/usr/local/package/components SHLIB_PATH=/usr/local/package LIBPATH=/usr/local/package ADDON_PATH=/usr/local/package MOZ_PROGRAM=/usr/local/package/mozilla-bin MOZ_TOOLKIT= moz_debug=0 moz_debugger= Registering plugin 0 for: "*","All types",".*" ... then the console hung, so I use Mozilla on Mac, and NS on RH ;-( -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Books for beginners
The O'Rielly book "Running Linux" seems to win the readers choice awards each year. I haven't read it (we have a copy here at work though) so I can't "recommend" it but it appears to be a good start. On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:52:50 Antoni wrote: Dear Slugsters, Hay you slugsters, What would be the best book(s) to aquire for a beginner who is interested in starting a career with Linux and Linux related systems ? Kind regards Antoni -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NOT the /. thread
quote who="David"
There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay abandon. What
the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)... what are curses? (dumb question?)
... and lets not even *start* on acronyms
You need dict!
screen
lazarus: ~/src/gnome/balsa-1.0.0
$ dict pcmcia
1 definition found
From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (05 Sep 00) [foldoc]:
PCMCIA
body, standard {Personal Computer Memory Card International
Association}. (Or People Can't Memorise Computer Industry
Acronyms).
/screen
Mine queries way too many sources. It's very, very cool.
- Jeff
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[SLUG] Debian - Apt-get in the Press
December Linux Journal just arrived on my desk and low and behold, there's a nifty 5 page article on the joys of Apt (GNOME Apt looks nifty) along with a 2 page reveiw of the entire distribution (hh?). Talk about timing :) -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] BAckspace under X
hi
i hope this works in X type
xmodmap -e "keycode 22 = BackSpace"
then it should work.. if it does then good but next time u start X it
probly wont again.. if this is the case either edit ur keymap manually or
put the command in ur .bashrc
--- works on deb anyway
alex
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Doug Stalker wrote:
Debian Woody System. Everything going fine. Then from a console I
killed X ('killall gdm') to see if it would make any difference with my
sound problem - it didn't. I started gdm back up, but teh backspace key
wont work - it just beeps. I rebooted teh entire system - same
problem. backspace works fine on teh console but not under X.
What can I do to fix this? I really have no idea where to start, since
I didn't change anything prior to it happening.
- Doug
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Balsa [Was: Re: [SLUG] NOT the /. thread]
There's a Balsa 1? It's not in unstable yet though, or is this something
your cooking at home?
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:21:27 Jeff Waugh wrote:
quote who="David"
There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay
abandon. What
the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)... what are curses? (dumb
question?)
... and lets not even *start* on acronyms
You need dict!
screen
lazarus: ~/src/gnome/balsa-1.0.0
$ dict pcmcia
1 definition found
From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (05 Sep 00) [foldoc]:
PCMCIA
body, standard {Personal Computer Memory Card
International
Association}. (Or People Can't Memorise Computer Industry
Acronyms).
/screen
Mine queries way too many sources. It's very, very cool.
- Jeff
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
http://linux.conf.au/ --
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- Linus Torvalds.
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Craige.
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[SLUG] Re: NOT the /. thread
\begin{David}
There is all this jargon that you guys throw around with gay
abandon.
the indented blocks below are from the "free online dictionary of
computing"
(there's probably a web page somewhere, i'm just using the "dict"
command)
What the hell is a wrapper? (fantales?)...
wrapper
programming Code which is combined with another piece of
{code} to determine how that code is executed. The wrapper
acts as an interface between its caller and the wrapped code.
This may be done for compatibility, e.g. if the wrapped code
is in a different programming language or uses different
calling conventions, or for security, e.g. to prevent the
calling program from executing certain functions. The
implication is that the wrapped code can only be accessed via
the wrapper.
often a "shell wrapper" since munging command line options, etc then
running the real command is usually a one or two line shell script.
an eg:
in a file called mozilla.sh (completely untested bodgy script):
#! /bin/sh
if [ "$1" = -display ]; then
DISPLAY=$2; export DISPLAY; shift; shift
fi
exec /usr/bin/mozilla "$@"
then use "mozilla.sh" everywhere you used to use "mozilla". it adds
(limited) support for the standard "-display" option to mozilla,
simply by doing what mozilla should do itself.
what are curses? (dumb question?)
curses
A set of subroutines in {Unix} for handling navigation on a
terminal screen using the cursor.
basically anything you see that has "text graphics" (windows,
textboxes, etc) is probably using the curses library.
also called "ncurses", since that is the (better) version that linux
(and now nearly everyone else too) uses.
another similar (but different) library is "slang", so you might see
that one mentioned sometimes too. iirc, slang supports colour a little
better than ncurses.
... and lets not even *start* on acronyms
Is there a resource for someone to go look it up when the geeks are
talking greek? What we used to call a "glossary"?
dict, as i used above. the tool comes from www.dict.org, i think they
have the dictionaries available online too?
otherwise, find "the jargon file" maintained by esr (do a web search).
else just ask.
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Re: Balsa [Was: Re: [SLUG] NOT the /. thread]
Let's just hope it's IMAP support is more stable than it is in 0.8.1. Every second copy to an IMAP folder causes Balsa to crash. They'd want to get that fixed before they went 1.0 - it will also help me keep out of the Mozilla M18 mailer :) Do you mind sharing a few thoughts on Balsa 1.0 when you have it up? I'll keep apt-get updating and hoping ;) On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:47:23 Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who="Craige McWhirter" There's a Balsa 1? It's not in unstable yet though, or is this something your cooking at home? On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:21:27 Jeff Waugh wrote: lazarus: ~/src/gnome/balsa-1.0.0 Hahahahaha... I wondered what the hell you were on about for a minute there. Yes, Balsa 1.0 has been released, and supports a whole thwack of bits and pieces. I haven't compiled it yet - only interested to see what it was like so I could recommend it to others. Funny what you find in recycled terminals, isn't it? :) -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Books for beginners
Antoni, I find a few books very useful. Redhat Linux Bible - IDG Books Linux in a Nutshell 3rd edition - O'reilly Linux Network Administrators Guide 2nd edition - O'reilly I also find Linuxdoc.org a wonderful resource. I have Linux Network Printing - O'reilly, turning up tomorrow so can't comment on that. If you want ISBN numbers or whatever let me know. www.dymocks.com.au seem pretty resonable when ordering books online. alister -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Antoni Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2000 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SLUG] Books for beginners Dear Slugsters, Hay you slugsters, What would be the best book(s) to aquire for a beginner who is interested in starting a career with Linux and Linux related systems ? Kind regards Antoni -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Books for beginners
www.dymocks.com.au seem pretty resonable when ordering books online. www.woodslane.com.au is another good one for online orders... they are the Australian publishers for O'Reilly/IDG and heaps of others. Cheers, Marty -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Light pro use for talk
Hi, I have to give a talk and I will be using a notebook for presentation, apparently they have something called "light pro" projectors. Can anyone tell me how this works? i.e. what cabling, any special resolution settings .. any software etc. Any help and or advice would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Mehmet -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux news on slashdot
Where's Word??? :-) Or even Notepad??? Foot, applications, gnotepad - foot, applications, abiword ok it's probably not all that obvious if you've never used a computer, but finding the same on windows or macos would be just as difficult Granted, but the advantage windows have is that even if you've never used a computer a lot of people have heard of word. In the beginner training I do quite often the first question I'm asked is Where is word. Not where can I write letters or do word processing. To them Word processing is Word. Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Light pro use for talk
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Mehmet Yousouf wrote: Hi, I have to give a talk and I will be using a notebook for presentation, apparently they have something called "light pro" projectors. Can anyone tell me how this works? i.e. what cabling, any special resolution settings .. any software etc. It plugs into the video port on your laptop and projects the image onto a screen. The newer onces a digital, while the old crappy ones use an OHP. I have found that it is wise to have a go before hand to make sure you x config works with the lite pro -- for instance they normally only work on a fairly low resolution (1024 x 768? it is model dependant). They also can be pretty specific about refresh rates and stuff. I have also found that sometimes you need to plug them in, and then start x... Cheers, Mikal -- Michael Still ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Panda PDF Generation Library (http://www.stillhq.com/panda/) - GPG Public Key at http://www.stillhq.com/mikal.asc -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Light pro use for talk
I don't know that model particularly but in my experience they have always been straight VGA cables. You just switch video modes on your laptop and voila, your giving a presentation. On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:09:09 Mehmet Yousouf wrote: Hi, I have to give a talk and I will be using a notebook for presentation, apparently they have something called "light pro" projectors. Can anyone tell me how this works? i.e. what cabling, any special resolution settings .. any software etc. Any help and or advice would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Mehmet -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- Cheers, Craige. -- Apt-get a clue. Apt-get Debian. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Mailing list quiet
Is this mailing list been quiet the last few days or am I the only one having difficulties? Far from it. with this Linux "ease of use" thread the list has been more active than I've seen it for a while. particualrly with regard to range of participants. Even raster's come out of lurk :-) and that cant be bad. Dan. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
