Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
On 6 May 2001, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Van Ly In this information age, we ordinary people have everything to lose to the few powerful people who would prefer us to be ignorant. Those powerful people come in all shades of blue (capitalists) and red (commies). Which begs the question: Capitalists and Communists can't be ordinary people? -- slug-chat! I can't see how you can make that inference. Capitalists, Communists and Clowns can be ordinary people. There is nothing that I said that would exclude ordinary people from being whatever they can be, however, that they should be ignorant is a desireable outcome in the minds of a *few*. Whatever. - Jeff -- This is the recognition that ... a large amount of software is firmly in the baked bean camp. - Alan Cox -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- Van Ly -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
At this point i would like to mention turbolinux. If your a redhat fan and are sick of the amount of rubbish you get, and youd also like to have more provided binary packages that are better-than-rh integrated, then turbo could be for you. Go get the iso now. There is a workstation and a server, as you know you dont want say squid on a workstation, and you wouldnt want say gnumeric on a server. try now, is good. is redhat like with lots more control on the install process with heaps of console config tools for people who are lazy/dont know Dean Del wrote: OK, and I have a number of equivalent arguments as to why Debian sucks. For example: * Why don't they build packages from pristine sources. * What the fxxk is the name of the program I use to install packages again, is it dselect, apt-get, or dpkg? * Why does dselect tell me it's going to apply a bunch of security fixes to my debian system by _uninstalling_ a whole pile of stuff that I added with apt-get (such as apache, for example). * Why on earth do they still insist on running named as root? Other more useful commercial arguments include that most of the commercial Linux software (Oracle, Firewall-1, VMware, etc, etc) is targeted at RedHat and not Debian. It just makes sense for my clients' sake that I continue to use Red Hat. On a more personal note as a software developer, one of my packages is still floating around the net as a .deb file with _someone else's copyright notice_ attached to it. OK, so who gave the Debian developers permission to change the copyright message on other people's software? Are they packaging Oracle 8i in a .deb file with a GPL copyright message on it too? I'd like to see that one fly. I could go on. I won't. I've had enough of the arguments either side. I'm used to Red Hat, I tried it, I liked it, I tried Debian and I didn't like that much. Other people's mileage may vary. The fact of the matter is, *this is a Linux mailing list*. It's not an *I hate RedHat* mailing list or an *I hate Debian* mailing list. Personally, I don't give a rat's arse what version of Linux other people use, as long as it weans them off Microsoft, and one day I may very well find a customer site where I really need to use Debian instead of RedHat so I will. I still have one site running a really old version of slackware because it's small, fast, light, and nobody can remember what the bugs are any more. I'm getting rather tired of the *I hate RH* vs *I hate Debian* flame wars on this list and I just wish they'd all stop. If you want to flame something then go find an advocacy list or a net.news group with a bunch of people who care, 'cos I sure as hell don't. Simon, sure, a How to use Debian for RedHat users might be somewhat constructive, especially for people like me who use RH 90% of the time and have to play with the occasional Debian system, but a page that has the title Why RedHat sucks is neither constructive nor useful, except for Microsoft employees. I bet Bill Gates has your web site plastered to the wall of his dunny, with a picture of Larry Ellison in a chicken suit next to it for added jerk off value. I strongly suggest, in the interest of the entire world wide Linux community, that you take it down and replace it with something a little more user friendly. Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- BONG: http://www.bong.com.au EMAIL... [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 16867613 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:07:30PM +1000, Del uttered: I strongly suggest, in the interest of the entire world wide Linux community, that you take it down and replace it with something a little more user friendly. No. With a little open criticism, Red Hat might actually fix these problems. The free software world has a lot in common with the Left side of politics. Its biggest strength and its biggest weakness is its adherence to the policy of total openness. This helps our enemies sometimes, but then many of us just ignore the enemies anyway since their products suck. It also requires an understanding from people that they _CAN_ dive and find out the truth from the horse's mouth without relying on spin from the opposing team. Dragging the analogy a little further than it should be dragged, the same ridiculous articles in the press here in London in the leadup to the recent Mayday riots (their term) about people training in US anarchist training camps are easily seen for what they are with a quick trawl of the Net, the same source the newsmen used. (See www.ruckus.org). The same is true of Microsoft's spin. Your comments sound rather Trotskyist to me, if we're going to make a Lefty political analogy :) If I can't talk about the warts, this isn't my movement. If I can't dance, this isn't my revolution. -- Rev Simon RumbleCurrent physical location: London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rumble.net A gentleman is a man who wouldn't hit a lady with his hat on. -- Evan Esar [ And why not? For why does she have his hat on? Ed.] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
quote who=Rev Simon Rumble If I can't dance, this isn't my revolution. I think Del was saying something kinda like this: It takes less mental effort to condemn than to think. [ Another Emma Goldman. ] :) - Jeff -- You know, the crunchy, folk-singer part of me wants to believe that a performance is a dialogue, but I can't hear a fucking thing you're saying. - Ani DiFranco -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 01:21:33AM +1000, Jeff Waugh uttered: I think Del was saying something kinda like this: It takes less mental effort to condemn than to think. If you read the actual piece, I say that Red Hat sucks is probably a bit harsh. Mabye I'm just infected by the appalling (but regularly hilarious) tabloid headlines over here... -- Rev Simon RumbleCurrent physical location: London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rumble.net In this vale Of toil and sin Your head grows bald But not your chin. -- Burma Shave -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
hear, hear. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates http://lannetlinux.com ...well, it worked before _you_ touched it! On Sat, 5 May 2001, Del wrote: [big snip] Simon, sure, a How to use Debian for RedHat users might be somewhat constructive, especially for people like me who use RH 90% of the time and have to play with the occasional Debian system, but a page that has the title Why RedHat sucks is neither constructive nor useful, except for Microsoft employees. I bet Bill Gates has your web site plastered to the wall of his dunny, with a picture of Larry Ellison in a chicken suit next to it for added jerk off value. I strongly suggest, in the interest of the entire world wide Linux community, that you take it down and replace it with something a little more user friendly. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
Rev Simon Rumble wrote:
On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:07:30PM +1000, Del uttered:
I strongly suggest, in the interest of the entire world wide Linux
community, that you take it down and replace it with something a
little more user friendly.
No. With a little open criticism, Red Hat might actually fix these
problems. The free software world has a lot in common with the Left
side of politics. Its biggest strength and its biggest weakness is
its adherence to the policy of total openness.
Well, I think therein lies the problem. RedHat comes from the right wing
of things, in that they are firmly tied into the capitalist business
model of making money with the view of making a profit. Somewhere along
the line, in this world, Linux needs quite a few businesses making a
profit from Linux to keep the speed of development up and to keep it
going (at a significant pace).
I suspect that the imput people have is related to how high up the
RedHat food chain they are, i.e. if PHB in big corp says we want it,
they will get it first.
I use RedHat because 95% of the time, it is the first to handle new
hardware and until recently, it gave me the best installation options. I
recommend it to other people for similar reasons.
I'm using another distro because I don't like the Microsoft like power
of RH in the Linux world and I encourage competition. These are similar
reasons why I only buy AMD. The fact that my other distro isn't Debian
is because both the Debian versions I have tried have failed to install
multiple times.
...snip.
Your comments sound rather Trotskyist to me, if we're going to
make a Lefty political analogy :)
Concept Totally lost. This isn't a medical condition in case anyone is
wondering, but a micro-faction of leftist politics and a lesson in how
not to co-operate - if there is one thing a leftist splinter party hates
more that the right wing pollies, it is other leftist groups that don't
follow the one true path, i.e. our version of communist dogma - OOh
sounds a bit like linux distro flame wars {:-0
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.woa.com.au
WOA Computer Services lan/wan, linux/unix, novell
People without trees are like fish without clean water
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Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
quote who=Terry Collins
Concept Totally lost. This isn't a medical condition in case anyone is
wondering, but a micro-faction of leftist politics and a lesson in how not
to co-operate - if there is one thing a leftist splinter party hates more
that the right wing pollies, it is other leftist groups that don't follow
the one true path, i.e. our version of communist dogma - OOh sounds a
bit like linux distro flame wars {:-0
My FREADOM is bettar than yuor FREADOM!!
[ This is one of those threads that would fit in *perfectly* on slug-chat. ]
- Jeff
--
I used the word 'infrastructure' when describing her cooking
style... and she didn't speak to me for a week.
--
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More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
I would just like to make it known that I am neither Trotskyite, Stalinist, Right Wing, or any other -ism you want to maintain I am. I'm a Linux dude, OK? I don't give a hoot about politics and as far as I know I'm not even on the electoral roll at the moment. I still think that Why RedHat Sucks is a bad name for a pro-Linux page, regardless of whether it was written by a capitalist or a communist. Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
Damn. I wish I'd read this thread now, it sounds interesting. (off to read the archives) Thus spake Del ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I would just like to make it known that I am neither Trotskyite, Stalinist, Right Wing, or any other -ism you want to maintain I am. I'm a Linux dude, OK? I don't give a hoot about politics and as far as I know I'm not even on the electoral roll at the moment. I still think that Why RedHat Sucks is a bad name for a pro-Linux page, regardless of whether it was written by a capitalist or a communist. Del -- Cheers, Craige. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
On 6 May 2001, Del wrote: I would just like to make it known that I am neither Trotskyite, Stalinist, Right Wing, or any other -ism you want to maintain I am. I'm a Linux dude, OK? I don't give a hoot about politics and as far as I know I'm not even on the electoral roll at the moment. It's a shame people feel that way about politics because ultimately that's where the power to decide lies: if you don't like the rules of the game--you can change them. I still think that Why RedHat Sucks is a bad name for a pro-Linux page, regardless of whether it was written by a capitalist or a communist. Ahh yes, divide then conquer your enemy. It all starts with a label and then you get people to stop listening to the substance of the argument. Would it surprise anyone that the anti-GNU/Linux forces have confederates among us? In this information age, we ordinary people have everything to lose to the few powerful people who would prefer us to be ignorant. Those powerful people come in all shades of blue (capitalists) and red (commies). Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- Van Ly -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
quote who=Van Ly In this information age, we ordinary people have everything to lose to the few powerful people who would prefer us to be ignorant. Those powerful people come in all shades of blue (capitalists) and red (commies). Which begs the question: Capitalists and Communists can't be ordinary people? -- slug-chat! - Jeff -- This is the recognition that ... a large amount of software is firmly in the baked bean camp. - Alan Cox -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
Okay you've probably heard me ranting and raving about RedHat recently. The problem is I've been forced to admin some RH systems and it's really been getting up my nose. I've just grown used to Debian quality. The reason for RedHat's continued success, I think, has more to do with history than current quality. RedHat was the first distro to make installing and managing Linux systems easy. People who continue using it know and are used to its quirks and deficiencies and are comfortable with it. This is acceptable but consider that there are better alternatives out there and spend some time trying them out. You may just like the green grass on the other side. So here's my evolving rant about problems I've had with RedHat recently. http://www.rumble.net/redhatsucks.html -- Rev Simon RumbleCurrent physical location: London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rumble.net Message will arrive in the mail. Destroy, before the FBI sees it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
quote who=Rev Simon Rumble http://www.rumble.net/redhatsucks.html * Fix the reference to DHCP; you're talking about dhcpd, and it's confused a number of readers thus far (it's right later on, but the header is confusing). The reason for this is by-design; Red Hat's non-interactive setup hasn't really fit this in well (it could certainly be fixed to operate more like... the Debian packages (!)... though). * Emacs without X: The LSB assumes the X libraries to be installed. Yes, some may see this as a bit of a mess (my initial reaction was the same), but it's there for a reason. Thus, this isn't necessarily broken. :) * I (and others) haven't seen the man pages thing. Um, need more info. ;) * Not the old apt-get argument again! Yes, it's perky and nice and wonderful, etc. Sure. Conectiva spent months getting their RPMs into a state to be useful with dpkg-rpm; it's a lot of work to fix all this up. Debian has grown up with this concept, it has grown up with its policy development - it has a huge advantage in this area. Debian's packages and policy are also its greatest enemy. It's complicated. It's fairly hard to get into (please, there's no need to prove how elite you are by saying it's easy). You *do* need to have a good body of knowledge to start. [ I was quite wrong about bugzilla too; it has become a little more packageable than it used to be. It's still a PITA. ;) ] - Jeff -- Socks for the foot menu! - Liam Quin (Ankh) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Why RedHat sucks
On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:08:08AM +1000, Jeff Waugh uttered: * Fix the reference to DHCP; Done. confusing). The reason for this is by-design; Red Hat's non-interactive setup hasn't really fit this in well (it could certainly be fixed to operate more like... the Debian packages (!)... though). Having some sort of error message when trying to start it using the rc script would be ideal. At the least a default dhcpd.conf with everything commented out will help people get started, and a comment at the top to say touch the leases file though this should be done by the package since it won't do anything if there's nothing in the config file. What gets me is that this has been there for _years_ and not fixed. You can tell that the developer (a RH employee) doesn't care nor use the package day-to-day. * Emacs without X: The LSB assumes the X libraries to be installed. Yes, some may see this as a bit of a mess (my initial reaction was the same), but it's there for a reason. Thus, this isn't necessarily broken. :) Then perhaps the package should be called emacs-notmuchx. Debian's packages and policy are also its greatest enemy. It's complicated. It's fairly hard to get into (please, there's no need to prove how elite you are by saying it's easy). You *do* need to have a good body of knowledge to start. No argument there. I'll see if I can get Ashton to let me relicense my intro to Debian as published in the latest Linux (advanced) Pocketbook. If not (big Kezza Packer owns the copyright now so I don't like my chances) I'll write it again. Might even repurpose it as a RedHat refugee's guide to Debian. -- Rev Simon RumbleCurrent physical location: London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rumble.net There is a vast difference between the savage and civilized man, but it is never apparent to their wives until after breakfast. -- Helen Rowland -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
