RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
The real question is equality of launch height. If you went to a contest and two of the 4 winches had 400 ft. more line you would not think it was fair. I can hear the screaming now that with the longer line winches they get a launch height advantage. On the other hand if you buy a moldy or Kevlar wrap your spar and get a 400 ft. launch advantage it ok. I guess its just human nature to think that way but it sure makes no sense. John -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 11:00 PM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Maybe we could just string our winches with CF Twine? Or Kevlar reinforced line... Bring on bigger, stronger planes. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real question is equality of launch height. If you went to a contest and two of the 4 winches had 400 ft. more line you would not think it was fair. I can hear the screaming now that with the longer line winches they get a launch height advantage. On the other hand if you buy a moldy or Kevlar wrap your spar and get a 400 ft. launch advantage it ok. I guess its just human nature to think that way but it sure makes no sense. You're right, but it seems to me that all of these types of contests are designed to be as practical and fair as reasonably possible with the limited technology that we have to work with. If there was a way to accurately measure altitude and/or speed, or to drop all the gliders from a tall tower at predetermined times, then the competition could be more fair, and more interesting rules could be put into play. As it is, I tend to think of these contests merely as fun get-togethers. Mike -- Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer - http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/ _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Sounds like the arguments have reached the natural conclusion that we must allhave our own standardized winches, and fly a slot time. In other words, F3j with F3b winches. For those who love the chase of ever more and better rules the F3x events are the place to be. For those who just want to fly and have some fun there is American style TD,warts and all. Pick yer poison. happy trails - Rob Glover.
RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
P.S. The weak link can always go after the chute so you don't have to find the chute on a break. The real question is equality of launch height. If you went to a contest and two of the 4 winches had 400 ft. more line you would not think it was fair. I can hear the screaming now that with the longer line winches they get a launch height advantage. On the other hand if you buy a moldy or Kevlar wrap your spar and get a 400 ft. launch advantage it ok. I guess its just human nature to think that way but it sure makes no sense. John -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 11:00 PM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Maybe we could just string our winches with CF Twine? Or Kevlar reinforced line... Bring on bigger, stronger planes. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Let's discuss launch for a minute. I think TK hit on something that gets lost: technique. Why do guys do pedal to the metal launches? Is it to get more altitude? More zoom? Trash the brushes on the winches? Tapping most of the way up will get you higher. Less line taken in. Full pedal close to the apex and then into the zoom will accomplish the same zoom with reflex added to get the speed up. So why do guys go at it full pedal full time? Could it be that they can't meter the power? Have a tough time tapping? In a downwind launch it makes good sense to full pedal, but in an into the wind situation unless you are on mono you gain nothing. Throwing the airplane on launch will do more to get the speed up than full pedal out of the hand. Afraid of breaking line at the Nats and also I found that in some situations I had too much tension and popped off with in 50'. I stopped the full tension and started going up with a moderate amount of tension and stopped popping off. I tap and get the full length of line I can before going for the zoom. Then I push the winch. I thought I was babying the winch, until I looked over and saw Joe Wurts doing the tap thing too. If you've ever seen Joe launch F3B or J you know that Joe goes for maximum tension. But I have only seen him launch on braided at the Nats and he taps... I don't know if this goes on at other west coast contests, I suspect it does. Whats the point of reeling in alot of line? Now it gets different with a retriever line attached. You must maintain a little more speed with the added drag of another line. But still full pedal isn't necessary... just more frequent tapping. Ok I am getting off my soapbox... -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Jeff, With all the telemetry available now it would be an interesting study to see what results in the highest launch. In my opinion the most important factors are the wind or thermal activity, the stretch of the line, and the strength of the airframe. The whole point about cambering the wing and getting lots of tension initially is to get the most potential energy out of the line. If it can't all be created to kinetic energy at the zoom, then it is just a case of burning out brushes on the winch. I always shake my head when I see someone really tension up, full pedal, then fly off at the wrong time without a zoom, maybe just a flat trajectory going a little faster. Dr. Drela did some launch sims comparing 6 volt and 12 volt winches. The most important factor was the speed at the top of the launch. If you can do it with tapping, great. The sim indicated that full pedal was the best way. There are a lot of other factors he put into the equation, such as line elasticity, line diameter (resultant drag on the line), weight of the plane, drum diameter, etc. You can find the results here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allegro-Lite/files/Winch_Launch/ I hear what everyone is saying about the lost art of winching a fragile plane. I have a Bird of Time that would most likely fold the wings under a full pedal winch into a 10 mph headwind, yet it goes up fine without damage if I tap carefully and don't zoom too hard. The Icon, on the other hand, can take just about any kind of abuse. Because it is F3J related, the idea is to get off the line quickly, hence lots of tension and smoked winches (I know, I'm the club equipment manager). JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:54:42 -0400 To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Let's discuss launch for a minute. I think TK hit on something that gets lost: technique. Why do guys do pedal to the metal launches? Is it to get more altitude? More zoom? Trash the brushes on the winches? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
I think you didn't read what I said. from the point the plane is flying until the apex it does you nothing to build up speed. If you keep the pedal to the metal you are just sucking in line. Before you reach the apex you should start building speed. As far as stretch in the line ... with braided there is hardly any stretch... it is there but not much. Mono on the other hand is a kick in the pants. ye haaa :-) Cambering is a great thing (full trailing edge)... you get lift, but you don't need speed to convert it... But you must get the camber off to realize the speed. As you are reaching the apex you should be getting speed up... __I never said tap until the zoom__ if I wasn't clear here is my statement Tapping most of the way up will get you higher. Less line taken in. Full pedal close to the apex and then into the zoom will accomplish the same zoom with reflex added to get the speed up. When you get close to the apex you should then go full pedal (no camber) then reflex just b4 the zoom.I didn't say tap into the zoom. If it is done correctly you are not stressing the line since you are now converting lift (camber slow tapping) into speed (no camber )... the lift generated at speed is substantial but if you are going for zoom you are probably( holding a slight amount of down (very very slight) or reflexing ) to get the speed up because of the added lift (during speed) ... NOW if it's mono you stretch the line before the zoom... but you can't do that with braided! so a more efficient launch gets the speed up.. If you keep the lift (camber, back stick, or neutral stick ) on and speed on you will break the line...If you are willing to trade speed for lift you will be safe and usually not break the line and have a great zoom. For MONO go ahead and stretch. (yea baby) John Erickson wrote: Jeff, With all the telemetry available now it would be an interesting study to see what results in the highest launch. In my opinion the most important factors are the wind or thermal activity, the stretch of the line, and the strength of the airframe. The whole point about cambering the wing and getting lots of tension initially is to get the most potential energy out of the line. If it can't all be created to kinetic energy at the zoom, then it is just a case of burning out brushes on the winch. I always shake my head when I see someone really tension up, full pedal, then fly off at the wrong time without a zoom, maybe just a flat trajectory going a little faster. Dr. Drela did some launch sims comparing 6 volt and 12 volt winches. The most important factor was the speed at the top of the launch. If you can do it with tapping, great. The sim indicated that full pedal was the best way. There are a lot of other factors he put into the equation, such as line elasticity, line diameter (resultant drag on the line), weight of the plane, drum diameter, etc. You can find the results here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allegro-Lite/files/Winch_Launch/ I hear what everyone is saying about the lost art of winching a fragile plane. I have a Bird of Time that would most likely fold the wings under a full pedal winch into a 10 mph headwind, yet it goes up fine without damage if I tap carefully and don't zoom too hard. The Icon, on the other hand, can take just about any kind of abuse. Because it is F3J related, the idea is to get off the line quickly, hence lots of tension and smoked winches (I know, I'm the club equipment manager). JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:54:42 -0400 To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Let's discuss launch for a minute. I think TK hit on something that gets lost: technique. Why do guys do pedal to the metal launches? Is it to get more altitude? More zoom? Trash the brushes on the winches? -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
FW: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Well... you could... Get rid of the winches and aerotow. Use an altimeter in the tow plane to release all sailplanes at the same height. Over time, the result would in fact be a complete redesign of TD ships to maximize actual flying and thermalling characteristics (and landing) vs. launch optimized designs. Or... retain winches, put altimeters and recording GPS units in all planes, only start the day's task when a given altitude is attained (either by descending or climbing as the case may dictate). Very easy with today's technology. If a level playing field relative to launching is the goal, there are ways to do it. Few will agree, as it probably takes thinking outside the box, rocks the status quo, or represents too radical a change in mindset to be generally accepted. JD Just for yuks... What you have now is a launch and land contest. Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:36 AM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real question is equality of launch height. If you went to a contest and two of the 4 winches had 400 ft. more line you would not think it was fair. I can hear the screaming now that with the longer line winches they get a launch height advantage. On the other hand if you buy a moldy or Kevlar wrap your spar and get a 400 ft. launch advantage it ok. I guess its just human nature to think that way but it sure makes no sense. You're right, but it seems to me that all of these types of contests are designed to be as practical and fair as reasonably possible with the limited technology that we have to work with. If there was a way to accurately measure altitude and/or speed, or to drop all the gliders from a tall tower at predetermined times, then the competition could be more fair, and more interesting rules could be put into play. As it is, I tend to think of these contests merely as fun get-togethers. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
More my launch looks like tension ... throw ... get plane flying .. tap tap tap... full pedal and camber out reflex... zoom until you can't get anymore height... OTHERS: fulll pedal... let the plane come out of the hand... full pedal... full pedal... some of you reflex... some of you go to no camber. zoom it is the full pedal on the rise to the apex that does little. That's all I am saying John... so when they hit the apex they still full pedal and many break the line there. Many break the line on the way up... the question is what did they get from it? -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
A weak link slows down the contest because it has to be replaced. If it is the last ring you must put a new one on. If it is between the line and chute you must get the chute. Limiting power doesn't slow the contest down. New winches aren't necessary. Resistors could be made of all thread or anything But all would have to meet the resistance test. Admittedly not all winches will be of the same power there either. Differences in drum diameter create different power bands. The smaller the drum the more power. the larger drums create more speed but less power... Single support vs dual supported drum, real balls vs oilite all add to the differences. But assuming that power is restricted you level the playing field quite a bit. No one can draw the max power from the winch, and the brushes should last longer too by eliminating the higher current. John wrote: Jeff I agree that limited power winches would be a great thing, but it is not practical for all club to get new winches. I don't understand why a week link slows down a contest. In theory the weak link is the part that breaks and almost all breaks will not be re-launched. When it is not the weak link the only fair thing to do is re-launch because the line was damaged in the first place and that is the cost of doing business. John -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:52 PM To: John Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks I don't think a weak link works. You want to keep things moving a link only serves to slow things down. I think the FAI solution works great. Limit the power on the winches. The resistored winches cut the power down and then everyone is nearly identical in power. Now does this solve line breaks... somewhat... it certainly cuts it down a considerable amount if you lower the power and level the playing field. But breaks will still happen especially on windy days. In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. 3 years ago at the nats I hit the pedal and broke the line. before I got any tension. Fortunately I got another winch. But the no relaunch policy doesn't allow for bad retrieves, or a previous bad launch. What about someone who launches before you and pulls the knot to exterme. or stresses the ring. The no relaunch doesn't work. BUT neither does letting the person relaunch with all the markers in the air. Either let them launch again or relight the group. If you let them relight it must be point the plane to the ground and land... no dilly dallying anyone caught slowing up for a reading of air should forfeit their flight. John wrote: Mark, Why not use a weak link of 225lb at the tow hook with 280-300 line on the winch? If the line breaks the weak link then they fly. You would need to be able to check the line quickly. That said. I feel that you are doing a great job with the series and everyone knows the rules. Everyone launches under the same rules. They can choose to stay home if they don't like the contest. You can't factor out all circumstances of launch problems. It is a roll of the dice. You pays you money and you takes you chances. John -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:04 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I realize that my free market approach appaers a bit loose, but I still feel that this approach is best since as has been pointed out that conditions can vary as well as equipment. I urge clubs in the direction that I feel is what the customer wants, i.e. MVSA going MOM format this year with the heavier line than they have ever used before, there was trepidation, but they will make folks happy with the choice. My answer to what I will do in STL since I am the CD there is to give line breaks in the first round and to call down the entire flight group, but after that the show is on and no more chances
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
In Sweden (and lately also Norway) they have used low power winches for quite a while now. They use regular F3B winches with extra resistors to form a pull of 20kg (apx 700oz or 44lb) on the line. This makes starts a bit more even for F3B models compared to RES models. And there will be no linebreaks unless the wind is very strong or it is damaged. They also try to use apx same drum size on all winches. Best of it is that no matter what model you have one can step on the pedal all the way. You dont need to be careful with those beginner RES-planes... Personally I feel that this is a good solution for most competitions. We have known for a long time now that resistors on F3B winches was a very good move to make. Although F3B winches are much more powerful than 20kg offcourse. For F3B and F3J (yes we use winches in some F3J comp.) we still use normal F3B force offcourse. Sadly I have never tried your US-style winches with braided line so cant comment on all issues. But will during Nats I guess ;-) Airplane ticket to Nats is ordered... Hilsen (Regards) Jojo www.grini.no -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:52 PM To: John Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks I don't think a weak link works. You want to keep things moving a link only serves to slow things down. I think the FAI solution works great. Limit the power on the winches. The resistored winches cut the power down and then everyone is nearly identical in power. Now does this solve line breaks... somewhat... it certainly cuts it down a considerable amount if you lower the power and level the playing field. But breaks will still happen especially on windy days. In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. 3 years ago at the nats I hit the pedal and broke the line. before I got any tension. Fortunately I got another winch. But the no relaunch policy doesn't allow for bad retrieves, or a previous bad launch. What about someone who launches before you and pulls the knot to exterme. or stresses the ring. The no relaunch doesn't work. BUT neither does letting the person relaunch with all the markers in the air. Either let them launch again or relight the group. If you let them relight it must be point the plane to the ground and land... no dilly dallying anyone caught slowing up for a reading of air should forfeit their flight. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
I've followed this thread with some interest ... as JB said, we've discussed this topic trekking back and forth from many contests in the van. The advent of affordable molded models has done more to cause line problems than any other single facet of our chosen sport. Today's molded sailplanes are so strong that they can easily part 200# test winch line, almost at will. This is the primary reason we in the OVSS and AMA/LSF Nats have moved to the 290# test lines we use today. If there are no burns, abrasions, crappy knots, etc. it's unlikely that you will be able to break the line on purpose without damaging the model. With aircraft of this magnitude of strength, the need for developing good winch technique has fallen by the wayside. In my early days in the sport, everyone flew open framework gasbags and a full pedal launch on our SIX volt winches would result in a Monokoted bag full of sticks. You learned to temper your foot or you learned to rebuild - fast! Today's competition pilot doesn't need to develop any such technique, he can simply hook up, step on the pedal and GO! Poor winch technique is easy to spot, the smoke coming from the winch armature and excessive wing flex are sure indicators. Moderating the amount of energy in the line, motor and wings are all a part of launching technique that is all too lacking among many competition pilots who have skipped the early learning curves of winching built-up, more fragile models. Examination of the line break often yields the answer to why the line parted, the aforementioned abrasions, poor knots, frozen turnaround pulleys ... equipment failures should result in a relight. The pilot that breaks the line as they push over into the zoom has no call for a relight, he got 90+% of the way up. The pilot who full pedal launches through a thermal on tow shouldn't get a relight, either, unless the equipment failed (and if he had proper technique, the line likely would have stayed intact). Weak links ... tried in F3B a decade or more ago, the weak link was dropped quickly because the relative weakness of the link was actually seen to be a safety hazard as most links failed just out of the launcher's hand. Yes, the (rather large) relative difference between the line and the link had much to do with the problem, but what is the right differential? For a 100 RES or NOS vs a 3.9 meter Sharon? Do we need devices on the winches to set torque or tension limits? Same issue as the weak link ... what's the right amount of torque and is it the same for every model? A seasoned pilot acting as the Launch Master can readily evaluate each launch and come to a likely first approximation as to cause for line failure on the spot ... subsequent investigation at the point of failure serves to validate whether the call was correct or not. I would guess that the Launch Master is going to be right the majority of the time. Reserve one or two winches on the line for relights ... pilot calls the break, Launch Master either denies the relight request and the pilot continues the flight or confirms the relight and the pilot comes down IMMEDIATELY for relaunch. If the number of breaks exceeds the number of backup winches, call the group down and start over. I suggest if that many lines break in the same round there are either equipment issues or you're winching over desert scrub or through rose bushes. Rather than look for a technological silver bullet, I propose that we, as a part of bringing newer flyers into the competition circuit, teach winch technique alongside air reading skills and spot landing practice. It will improve the quality of the pilots, it will improve equipment life, and it will allow more flying, which is really the whole point, isn't it? IMHO, Tom Kallevang Wheeling, IL LSF President Webmaster LSF #303 Level V #103 AMA L292 SOAR (Chicago) Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
I don't see it slowing down a contest Jeff. Maybe the first time someone uses the system they may break the weak link but you have the whole round to get the chute and fix the line. If the week link is colored you can make the call if you are watching the launch. After the first few times someone has to fly out a broken week link you won't see and weak link line breaks. All the breaks that will happen will be legitimate breaks and need to be re-launched for fairness. John -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:49 AM To: John Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks A weak link slows down the contest because it has to be replaced. If it is the last ring you must put a new one on. If it is between the line and chute you must get the chute. Limiting power doesn't slow the contest down. New winches aren't necessary. Resistors could be made of all thread or anything But all would have to meet the resistance test. Admittedly not all winches will be of the same power there either. Differences in drum diameter create different power bands. The smaller the drum the more power. the larger drums create more speed but less power... Single support vs dual supported drum, real balls vs oilite all add to the differences. But assuming that power is restricted you level the playing field quite a bit. No one can draw the max power from the winch, and the brushes should last longer too by eliminating the higher current. John wrote: Jeff I agree that limited power winches would be a great thing, but it is not practical for all club to get new winches. I don't understand why a week link slows down a contest. In theory the weak link is the part that breaks and almost all breaks will not be re-launched. When it is not the weak link the only fair thing to do is re-launch because the line was damaged in the first place and that is the cost of doing business. John -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:52 PM To: John Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks I don't think a weak link works. You want to keep things moving a link only serves to slow things down. I think the FAI solution works great. Limit the power on the winches. The resistored winches cut the power down and then everyone is nearly identical in power. Now does this solve line breaks... somewhat... it certainly cuts it down a considerable amount if you lower the power and level the playing field. But breaks will still happen especially on windy days. In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. 3 years ago at the nats I hit the pedal and broke the line. before I got any tension. Fortunately I got another winch. But the no relaunch policy doesn't allow for bad retrieves, or a previous bad launch. What about someone who launches before you and pulls the knot to exterme. or stresses the ring. The no relaunch doesn't work. BUT neither does letting the person relaunch with all the markers in the air. Either let them launch again or relight the group. If you let them relight it must be point the plane to the ground and land... no dilly dallying anyone caught slowing up for a reading of air should forfeit their flight. John wrote: Mark, Why not use a weak link of 225lb at the tow hook with 280-300 line on the winch? If the line breaks the weak link then they fly. You would need to be able to check the line quickly. That said. I feel that you are doing a great job with the series and everyone knows the rules. Everyone launches under the same rules. They can choose to stay home if they don't like the contest. You can't factor out all circumstances of launch problems. It is a roll of the dice. You pays you money and you takes you chances. John -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:04 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Tom's analysis is, as they might say in JOE (jolly olde England), SPOT ON. And this excellent observation from non other than our current LSF President. Tom has the experience to define the FIX for this issue and has just done so. I'll back his direction on this one. Regards, Dave Corven. AMA 878 LSF 254 I've followed this thread with some interest ... as JB said, we've discussed this topic trekking back and forth from many contests in the van. The advent of affordable molded models has done more to cause line problems than any other single facet of our chosen sport. Today's molded sailplanes are so strong that they can easily part 200# test winch line, almost at will. This is the primary reason we in the OVSS and AMA/LSF Nats have moved to the 290# test lines we use today. If there are no burns, abrasions, crappy knots, etc. it's unlikely that you will be able to break the line on purpose without damaging the model. With aircraft of this magnitude of strength, the need for developing good winch technique has fallen by the wayside. In my early days in the sport, everyone flew open framework gasbags and a full pedal launch on our SIX volt winches would result in a Monokoted bag full of sticks. You learned to temper your foot or you learned to rebuild - fast! Today's competition pilot doesn't need to develop any such technique, he can simply hook up, step on the pedal and GO! Poor winch technique is easy to spot, the smoke coming from the winch armature and excessive wing flex are sure indicators. Moderating the amount of energy in the line, motor and wings are all a part of launching technique that is all too lacking among many competition pilots who have skipped the early learning curves of winching built-up, more fragile models. Examination of the line break often yields the answer to why the line parted, the aforementioned abrasions, poor knots, frozen turnaround pulleys ... equipment failures should result in a relight. The pilot that breaks the line as they push over into the zoom has no call for a relight, he got 90+% of the way up. The pilot who full pedal launches through a thermal on tow shouldn't get a relight, either, unless the equipment failed (and if he had proper technique, the line likely would have stayed intact). Weak links ... tried in F3B a decade or more ago, the weak link was dropped quickly because the relative weakness of the link was actually seen to be a safety hazard as most links failed just out of the launcher's hand. Yes, the (rather large) relative difference between the line and the link had much to do with the problem, but what is the right differential? For a 100 RES or NOS vs a 3.9 meter Sharon? Do we need devices on the winches to set torque or tension limits? Same issue as the weak link ... what's the right amount of torque and is it the same for every model? A seasoned pilot acting as the Launch Master can readily evaluate each launch and come to a likely first approximation as to cause for line failure on the spot ... subsequent investigation at the point of failure serves to validate whether the call was correct or not. I would guess that the Launch Master is going to be right the majority of the time. Reserve one or two winches on the line for relights ... pilot calls the break, Launch Master either denies the relight request and the pilot continues the flight or confirms the relight and the pilot comes down IMMEDIATELY for relaunch. If the number of breaks exceeds the number of backup winches, call the group down and start over. I suggest if that many lines break in the same round there are either equipment issues or you're winching over desert scrub or through rose bushes. Rather than look for a technological silver bullet, I propose that we, as a part of bringing newer flyers into the competition circuit, teach winch technique alongside air reading skills and spot landing practice. It will improve the quality of the pilots, it will improve equipment life, and it will allow more flying, which is really the whole point, isn't it? IMHO, Tom Kallevang Wheeling, IL LSF President Webmaster LSF #303 Level V #103 AMA L292 SOAR (Chicago) Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Can I get an AMEN Brother...Praise the lord and tap the pedal.. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Kallevang [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Cc: Marc Gellart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Tom's analysis is, as they might say in JOE (jolly olde England), SPOT ON. And this excellent observation from non other than our current LSF President. Tom has the experience to define the FIX for this issue and has just done so. I'll back his direction on this one. Regards, Dave Corven. AMA 878 LSF 254 I've followed this thread with some interest ... as JB said, we've discussed this topic trekking back and forth from many contests in the van. The advent of affordable molded models has done more to cause line problems than any other single facet of our chosen sport. Today's molded sailplanes are so strong that they can easily part 200# test winch line, almost at will. This is the primary reason we in the OVSS and AMA/LSF Nats have moved to the 290# test lines we use today. If there are no burns, abrasions, crappy knots, etc. it's unlikely that you will be able to break the line on purpose without damaging the model. With aircraft of this magnitude of strength, the need for developing good winch technique has fallen by the wayside. In my early days in the sport, everyone flew open framework gasbags and a full pedal launch on our SIX volt winches would result in a Monokoted bag full of sticks. You learned to temper your foot or you learned to rebuild - fast! Today's competition pilot doesn't need to develop any such technique, he can simply hook up, step on the pedal and GO! Poor winch technique is easy to spot, the smoke coming from the winch armature and excessive wing flex are sure indicators. Moderating the amount of energy in the line, motor and wings are all a part of launching technique that is all too lacking among many competition pilots who have skipped the early learning curves of winching built-up, more fragile models. Examination of the line break often yields the answer to why the line parted, the aforementioned abrasions, poor knots, frozen turnaround pulleys ... equipment failures should result in a relight. The pilot that breaks the line as they push over into the zoom has no call for a relight, he got 90+% of the way up. The pilot who full pedal launches through a thermal on tow shouldn't get a relight, either, unless the equipment failed (and if he had proper technique, the line likely would have stayed intact). Weak links ... tried in F3B a decade or more ago, the weak link was dropped quickly because the relative weakness of the link was actually seen to be a safety hazard as most links failed just out of the launcher's hand. Yes, the (rather large) relative difference between the line and the link had much to do with the problem, but what is the right differential? For a 100 RES or NOS vs a 3.9 meter Sharon? Do we need devices on the winches to set torque or tension limits? Same issue as the weak link ... what's the right amount of torque and is it the same for every model? A seasoned pilot acting as the Launch Master can readily evaluate each launch and come to a likely first approximation as to cause for line failure on the spot ... subsequent investigation at the point of failure serves to validate whether the call was correct or not. I would guess that the Launch Master is going to be right the majority of the time. Reserve one or two winches on the line for relights ... pilot calls the break, Launch Master either denies the relight request and the pilot continues the flight or confirms the relight and the pilot comes down IMMEDIATELY for relaunch. If the number of breaks exceeds the number of backup winches, call the group down and start over. I suggest if that many lines break in the same round there are either equipment issues or you're winching over desert scrub or through rose bushes. Rather than look for a technological silver bullet, I propose that we, as a part of bringing newer flyers into the competition circuit, teach winch technique alongside air reading skills and spot landing practice. It will improve the quality of the pilots, it will improve equipment life, and it will allow more flying, which is really the whole point, isn't it? IMHO, Tom Kallevang Wheeling, IL LSF President Webmaster LSF #303 Level V #103 AMA L292 SOAR (Chicago) Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
So Paul, you started this thread... You have seen some excellent responses, what do you think about this subject now? Will you be at the first OVSS contest this weekend? (both days, it's in your backyard brother) Will you be wearing your pink hat? 8-) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Hey Paul I have a wedding you can attend for me! lol At 08:12 PM 5/17/2005, James V. Bacus wrote: So Paul, you started this thread... You have seen some excellent responses, what do you think about this subject now? Will you be at the first OVSS contest this weekend? (both days, it's in your backyard brother) Will you be wearing your pink hat? 8-) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Maybe we are getting to that point that we are going to have to define winch as was done in F3B. Other countries did not have the Ford starter so went with individual winches rather than club winches but now we have a definition for that winch 23 milliohms of resistance between the starter and battery. We are now pushing for an unbreakable line but now have models that can break most reasonable line. I find it rather absurd though that now we are spending more energy lifting the line rather than the plane. So why are clubs sticking with the Ford longshaft convenience? I am surprised that some club has not come up with an alternative using diesel starting motors. Or are we someway saying this is enough. I doubt that we have the courage to drop back to the quarter power of the F3B winch. It depends on all kinds of wrong things. Own my own winch? you must be crazy? Walk to retrieve? I am too old. Those are a few starters. A conundrum? Rick Richard Hallett Pittsfield ME [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom's analysis is, as they might say in JOE (jolly olde England), SPOT ON. And this excellent observation from non other than our current LSF President. Tom has the experience to define the FIX for this issue and has just done so. I'll back his direction on this one. Regards, Dave Corven. AMA 878 LSF 254 I've followed this thread with some interest ... as JB said, we've discussed this topic trekking back and forth from many contests in the van. The advent of affordable molded models has done more to cause line problems than any other single facet of our chosen sport. Today's molded sailplanes are so strong that they can easily part 200# test winch line, almost at will. This is the primary reason we in the OVSS and AMA/LSF Nats have moved to the 290# test lines we use today. If there are no burns, abrasions, crappy knots, etc. it's unlikely that you will be able to break the line on purpose without damaging the model. With aircraft of this magnitude of strength, the need for developing good winch technique has fallen by the wayside. In my early days in the sport, everyone flew open framework gasbags and a full pedal launch on our SIX volt winches would result in a Monokoted bag full of sticks. You learned to temper your foot or you learned to rebuild - fast! Today's competition pilot doesn't need to develop any such technique, he can simply hook up, step on the pedal and GO! Poor winch technique is easy to spot, the smoke coming from the winch armature and excessive wing flex are sure indicators. Moderating the amount of energy in the line, motor and wings are all a part of launching technique that is all too lacking among many competition pilots who have skipped the early learning curves of winching built-up, more fragile models. Examination of the line break often yields the answer to why the line parted, the aforementioned abrasions, poor knots, frozen turnaround pulleys ... equipment failures should result in a relight. The pilot that breaks the line as they push over into the zoom has no call for a relight, he got 90+% of the way up. The pilot who full pedal launches through a thermal on tow shouldn't get a relight, either, unless the equipment failed (and if he had proper technique, the line likely would have stayed intact). Weak links ... tried in F3B a decade or more ago, the weak link was dropped quickly because the relative weakness of the link was actually seen to be a safety hazard as most links failed just out of the launcher's hand. Yes, the (rather large) relative difference between the line and the link had much to do with the problem, but what is the right differential? For a 100 RES or NOS vs a 3.9 meter Sharon? Do we need devices on the winches to set torque or tension limits? Same issue as the weak link ... what's the right amount of torque and is it the same for every model? A seasoned pilot acting as the Launch Master can readily evaluate each launch and come to a likely first approximation as to cause for line failure on the spot ... subsequent investigation at the point of failure serves to validate whether the call was correct or not. I would guess that the Launch Master is going to be right the majority of the time. Reserve one or two winches on the line for relights ... pilot calls the break, Launch Master either denies the relight request and the pilot continues the flight or confirms the relight and the pilot comes down IMMEDIATELY for relaunch. If the number of breaks exceeds the number of backup winches, call the group down and start over. I suggest if that many lines break in the same round there are either equipment issues or you're winching over desert scrub or through rose bushes. Rather than look for a technological silver bullet, I propose that we, as a part of bringing newer flyers into the competition circuit, teach winch technique alongside air reading skills and spot landing practice. It will improve the
Re: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Actually Richard we do retrieve our lines by foot all the time, no retrievers in our contests in OVSS. The reason that the ford motor is used is it is what has been used for years, maybe not the best idea, but available and fairly cheap. The ownership issue is an individual choice, I have done this off and on since 1975 and have never owned one, and most guys I know either have a club winch they take care of or have a good hi-start. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Maybe we could just string our winches with CF Twine? Or Kevlar reinforced line... Bring on bigger, stronger planes. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I realize that my free market approach appaers a bit loose, but I still feel that this approach is best since as has been pointed out that conditions can vary as well as equipment. I urge clubs in the direction that I feel is what the customer wants, i.e. MVSA going MOM format this year with the heavier line than they have ever used before, there was trepidation, but they will make folks happy with the choice. My answer to what I will do in STL since I am the CD there is to give line breaks in the first round and to call down the entire flight group, but after that the show is on and no more chances are available. That is my answer, and it can be used as a template, but each club is on their own with council from the wise among us. My 2 cents on the subject... Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Mark, Why not use a weak link of 225lb at the tow hook with 280-300 line on the winch? If the line breaks the weak link then they fly. You would need to be able to check the line quickly. That said. I feel that you are doing a great job with the series and everyone knows the rules. Everyone launches under the same rules. They can choose to stay home if they don't like the contest. You can't factor out all circumstances of launch problems. It is a roll of the dice. You pays you money and you takes you chances. John -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:04 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I realize that my free market approach appaers a bit loose, but I still feel that this approach is best since as has been pointed out that conditions can vary as well as equipment. I urge clubs in the direction that I feel is what the customer wants, i.e. MVSA going MOM format this year with the heavier line than they have ever used before, there was trepidation, but they will make folks happy with the choice. My answer to what I will do in STL since I am the CD there is to give line breaks in the first round and to call down the entire flight group, but after that the show is on and no more chances are available. That is my answer, and it can be used as a template, but each club is on their own with council from the wise among us. My 2 cents on the subject... Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
I don't think a weak link works. You want to keep things moving a link only serves to slow things down. I think the FAI solution works great. Limit the power on the winches. The resistored winches cut the power down and then everyone is nearly identical in power. Now does this solve line breaks... somewhat... it certainly cuts it down a considerable amount if you lower the power and level the playing field. But breaks will still happen especially on windy days. In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. 3 years ago at the nats I hit the pedal and broke the line. before I got any tension. Fortunately I got another winch. But the no relaunch policy doesn't allow for bad retrieves, or a previous bad launch. What about someone who launches before you and pulls the knot to exterme. or stresses the ring. The no relaunch doesn't work. BUT neither does letting the person relaunch with all the markers in the air. Either let them launch again or relight the group. If you let them relight it must be point the plane to the ground and land... no dilly dallying anyone caught slowing up for a reading of air should forfeit their flight. John wrote: Mark, Why not use a weak link of 225lb at the tow hook with 280-300 line on the winch? If the line breaks the weak link then they fly. You would need to be able to check the line quickly. That said. I feel that you are doing a great job with the series and everyone knows the rules. Everyone launches under the same rules. They can choose to stay home if they don't like the contest. You can't factor out all circumstances of launch problems. It is a roll of the dice. You pays you money and you takes you chances. John -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:04 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I realize that my free market approach appaers a bit loose, but I still feel that this approach is best since as has been pointed out that conditions can vary as well as equipment. I urge clubs in the direction that I feel is what the customer wants, i.e. MVSA going MOM format this year with the heavier line than they have ever used before, there was trepidation, but they will make folks happy with the choice. My answer to what I will do in STL since I am the CD there is to give line breaks in the first round and to call down the entire flight group, but after that the show is on and no more chances are available. That is my answer, and it can be used as a template, but each club is on their own with council from the wise among us. My 2 cents on the subject... Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Jeff I agree that limited power winches would be a great thing, but it is not practical for all club to get new winches. I don't understand why a week link slows down a contest. In theory the weak link is the part that breaks and almost all breaks will not be re-launched. When it is not the weak link the only fair thing to do is re-launch because the line was damaged in the first place and that is the cost of doing business. John -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:52 PM To: John Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks I don't think a weak link works. You want to keep things moving a link only serves to slow things down. I think the FAI solution works great. Limit the power on the winches. The resistored winches cut the power down and then everyone is nearly identical in power. Now does this solve line breaks... somewhat... it certainly cuts it down a considerable amount if you lower the power and level the playing field. But breaks will still happen especially on windy days. In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. 3 years ago at the nats I hit the pedal and broke the line. before I got any tension. Fortunately I got another winch. But the no relaunch policy doesn't allow for bad retrieves, or a previous bad launch. What about someone who launches before you and pulls the knot to exterme. or stresses the ring. The no relaunch doesn't work. BUT neither does letting the person relaunch with all the markers in the air. Either let them launch again or relight the group. If you let them relight it must be point the plane to the ground and land... no dilly dallying anyone caught slowing up for a reading of air should forfeit their flight. John wrote: Mark, Why not use a weak link of 225lb at the tow hook with 280-300 line on the winch? If the line breaks the weak link then they fly. You would need to be able to check the line quickly. That said. I feel that you are doing a great job with the series and everyone knows the rules. Everyone launches under the same rules. They can choose to stay home if they don't like the contest. You can't factor out all circumstances of launch problems. It is a roll of the dice. You pays you money and you takes you chances. John -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:04 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks Jim, Paul, Jack,and Jim: Great comments and you all have pretty much sited all the pros and cons about what we face at each and every contest. From what i know every one of the contests we will be flying 280 or 290 line this year that is having MOM formats, I know STL relined this weekend and all the winches that are coming are set up with the good stuff (actually one club event ona line I think eliminates the splices and they are even better then). Like all have said, that eliminates nearly all the issues right there. But, still what do we do? I have had folks saying to me that I should mandate line strength and such, I have taken the attitude in the past that the clubs run their show and OVSS just uses the scores generated. I realize that my free market approach appaers a bit loose, but I still feel that this approach is best since as has been pointed out that conditions can vary as well as equipment. I urge clubs in the direction that I feel is what the customer wants, i.e. MVSA going MOM format this year with the heavier line than they have ever used before, there was trepidation, but they will make folks happy with the choice. My answer to what I will do in STL since I am the CD there is to give line breaks in the first round and to call down the entire flight group, but after that the show is on and no more chances are available. That is my answer, and it can be used as a template, but each club is on their own with council from the wise among us. My 2 cents on the subject... Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL
RE: [RCSE] OVSS and Line Breaks
Jeff brings up a good point about the line from MNT. Our experience is the same. Especially the last batch we got. It was pieced together and some of the line was terrible. The first contest we used it was awful, but after the breaks from the reload were done, the line lasts great. In the last 2 contests we had no line breaks. Moral of the story - use the line at least one contest prior to using it for a big event. Jim Jim Monaco snip In the ESL we noticed that new spools from Memphis twine had bad spots in it. After clearing the breaks, the lines rarely broke. We don't respool between contests any more, only when the line gets ragged. This is consistent with my experience with my own clubs and also retriever lines too. snip RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
