Re: Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Jeffery is the Giraffe from Toys Are US - right? On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:37:58 -0800, Geoff Spenceley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well said, Tony, > >Toot toot to Jeffrey--why, he even spells his name wrong! Tch, Tch!! > >However I wish we had a train up here--even if it was a K27 with JEFFREY as >the driver! Sorry--engineer! > >Geoff. > > > >Yup, >> Dem Hobbits can sure run fast after dem Duchess's though!. >> >> I also know now why the Redwoods can grow for hundreds of >>years.- >> Because it takes that long for a K27 to get to them before they can be >>chopped down!. >> (She'll be coming round the >>mountain "when" she comes!.) >> Remind you of anyone?. >> Toot, toot, >> Tony D. >> >>At 06:44 PM 3/14/03 -0800, Jeffrey Williams wrote: >>>Funny how the names of all of the RR lines and towns Tony refers in JoE >>>(Jolly old England) sound like they are lifted right out of "Lord of the >>>Rings"!! Towns in Hobbitshire! On the other hand, Tony does have >>>certain physical characteristics.. > > > The links provided below are ways to donate to a cause or causes for free. www.bigcats.care2.com www.breastcancer.care2.com www.oceans.care2.com www.primates.care2.com www.rainforest.care2.com www.theanimalrescuesite.com www.thebreastcancersite.com www.thechildhealthsite.com www.thehungersite.com www.therainforestsite.com
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Well said, Tony, Toot toot to Jeffrey--why, he even spells his name wrong! Tch, Tch!! However I wish we had a train up here--even if it was a K27 with JEFFREY as the driver! Sorry--engineer! Geoff. Yup, > Dem Hobbits can sure run fast after dem Duchess's though!. > > I also know now why the Redwoods can grow for hundreds of >years.- > Because it takes that long for a K27 to get to them before they can be >chopped down!. > (She'll be coming round the >mountain "when" she comes!.) > Remind you of anyone?. > Toot, toot, > Tony D. > >At 06:44 PM 3/14/03 -0800, Jeffrey Williams wrote: >>Funny how the names of all of the RR lines and towns Tony refers in JoE >>(Jolly old England) sound like they are lifted right out of "Lord of the >>Rings"!! Towns in Hobbitshire! On the other hand, Tony does have >>certain physical characteristics..
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Yup, Dem Hobbits can sure run fast after dem Duchess's though!. I also know now why the Redwoods can grow for hundreds of years.- Because it takes that long for a K27 to get to them before they can be chopped down!. (She'll be coming round the mountain "when" she comes!.) Remind you of anyone?. Toot, toot, Tony D. At 06:44 PM 3/14/03 -0800, Jeffrey Williams wrote: Funny how the names of all of the RR lines and towns Tony refers in JoE (Jolly old England) sound like they are lifted right out of "Lord of the Rings"!! Towns in Hobbitshire! On the other hand, Tony does have certain physical characteristics.. === Anthony Dixon wrote: > > Hi Geoff, > Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. > If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full > size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway > and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay > coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the > 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the > GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in > Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. > At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx > 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, > and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. > There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh > to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as > the Dartmouth trip. > However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have > to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had > over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also > visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. > So many tracks and not enough time. > > Have a great trip. > Regards, > Tony D. > > >I have enlisted! I've enlisted to test ride my nephew's 2' gauge railway on > >his farm in Cornwall. Also to play trains with his train mad 7 year old > >son. Steam a Basset Lowke (spelling?) of yesteryear perhaps. > > > > A much more important title than Brigadier--you will be able to call me > >ENGINE DRIVER!! Much better than being a pompous assed Brigadier. (No > >comment on how I might drive--please!) The closest I ever got to a > >Brigadier was when guarded the "brig" aboard the cruiser! No, I wasn't in > >it --but I lie a lot! > > > >I'll kiss the bridge (over the Thames) in Henley for you-- after I've > >crawled from the pub next to the church where I was christened which is > >next to the bridge, which is next to the police station! > > > > Hopefully, I'll see some old GWR coaches somewhere there!?? > > > >Geoff. > > > > > >At 04:31 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: > > >>you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! > > > > > >Geoff, > > > Don't tell me you've enlisted again! Haven't you done your share?! I > > >know, you thought you'd have just one more go at Brigadier! > > > > > >Regards, > > >Harry > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Hi Geoff, We are pleased to aim!. Do not forget your digital camera and count your pixels!. Suggest you check out the G1MRA Steaming calender for "local events". (Issue 196 arrived yesterday in the Bay Area). I see at least one that is listed to run regularly based somewhere Cornwall. They only list some contact phone numbers. Notice states "Visitors welcome, beds and lodging available". Sounds like just what the steam doctor ordered. Have a safe trip. Regards, Tony D. At 09:34 PM 3/14/03 -0800, Geoff Spenceley wrote: > Hi Tony and Peter, Thanks for all the tips for my trip.I'll note (print your Emails) and take them with me. My nepwhew is a train nut, so it looks promising! Lots of things to do! Thanks again! Geoff. Hi Geoff, Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as the Dartmouth trip. However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. So many tracks and not enough time. > Have a great trip. Regards, Tony D. If in Paignton/Torquay there is the Great Western Hotel. http://www.uk-hotel-accommodation.co.uk/England/Devon/Paignton/hotels/greatw esternhotelpaignton.cfm Mel and Cathy are model steam train nuts, with quite a collection in the bar the last time I was there. Peter Trounce. Toronto.
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
> Hi Tony and Peter, Thanks for all the tips for my trip.I'll note (print your Emails) and take them with me. My nepwhew is a train nut, so it looks promising! Lots of things to do! Thanks again! Geoff. Hi Geoff, Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as the Dartmouth trip. However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. So many tracks and not enough time. > Have a great trip. Regards, Tony D. If in Paignton/Torquay there is the Great Western Hotel. http://www.uk-hotel-accommodation.co.uk/England/Devon/Paignton/hotels/greatw esternhotelpaignton.cfm Mel and Cathy are model steam train nuts, with quite a collection in the bar the last time I was there. Peter Trounce. Toronto.
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Funny how the names of all of the RR lines and towns Tony refers in JoE (Jolly old England) sound like they are lifted right out of "Lord of the Rings"!! Towns in Hobbitshire! On the other hand, Tony does have certain physical characteristics.. === Anthony Dixon wrote: > > Hi Geoff, > Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. > If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full > size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway > and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay > coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the > 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the > GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in > Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. > At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx > 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, > and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. > There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh > to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as > the Dartmouth trip. > However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have > to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had > over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also > visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. > So many tracks and not enough time. > > Have a great trip. > Regards, > Tony D. > > >I have enlisted! I've enlisted to test ride my nephew's 2' gauge railway on > >his farm in Cornwall. Also to play trains with his train mad 7 year old > >son. Steam a Basset Lowke (spelling?) of yesteryear perhaps. > > > > A much more important title than Brigadier--you will be able to call me > >ENGINE DRIVER!! Much better than being a pompous assed Brigadier. (No > >comment on how I might drive--please!) The closest I ever got to a > >Brigadier was when guarded the "brig" aboard the cruiser! No, I wasn't in > >it --but I lie a lot! > > > >I'll kiss the bridge (over the Thames) in Henley for you-- after I've > >crawled from the pub next to the church where I was christened which is > >next to the bridge, which is next to the police station! > > > > Hopefully, I'll see some old GWR coaches somewhere there!?? > > > >Geoff. > > > > > >At 04:31 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: > > >>you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! > > > > > >Geoff, > > > Don't tell me you've enlisted again! Haven't you done your share?! I > > >know, you thought you'd have just one more go at Brigadier! > > > > > >Regards, > > >Harry > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Hi Peter, Very interesting. Have been by the hotel many times but had no idea about the decor. Will keep it in mind for next visit back to UK. Thanks, Tony D. At 03:13 PM 3/14/03 -0500, Peter Trounce wrote: If in Paignton/Torquay there is the Great Western Hotel. http://www.uk-hotel-accommodation.co.uk/England/Devon/Paignton/hotels/greatw esternhotelpaignton.cfm Mel and Cathy are model steam train nuts, with quite a collection in the bar the last time I was there. Peter Trounce. Toronto. - Original Message - From: "Anthony Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings > Hi Geoff, > Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. > If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full > size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway > and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay > coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the > 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the > GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in > Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. > At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx > 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, > and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. > There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh > to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as > the Dartmouth trip. > However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have > to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had > over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also > visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. > So many tracks and not enough time. > > Have a great trip. > Regards, > Tony D.
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
If in Paignton/Torquay there is the Great Western Hotel. http://www.uk-hotel-accommodation.co.uk/England/Devon/Paignton/hotels/greatw esternhotelpaignton.cfm Mel and Cathy are model steam train nuts, with quite a collection in the bar the last time I was there. Peter Trounce. Toronto. - Original Message - From: "Anthony Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings > Hi Geoff, > Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. > If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full > size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway > and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay > coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the > 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the > GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in > Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. > At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx > 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, > and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. > There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh > to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as > the Dartmouth trip. > However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have > to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had > over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also > visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. > So many tracks and not enough time. > > Have a great trip. > Regards, > Tony D.
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Hi Geoff, Sounds as if you are heading "back home" for a while?. Lucky you!. If so, and in the Cornwall-Devon area, looking for GWR Coaches (full size), you may want to try the Paignton to Kingswear (Dartmouth) Railway and return excursions which run hourly along the river Dart and Torbay coast. You can also get a river trip in a package ticket. They use the 2-6-2 GWR Tank engines and sometimes have visiting steamers. Also have the GWR rear observation cars and numerous GWR stock. Spend a few hours in Dartmouth and catch the train back as well. At Launceston, there is a also a 2' narrow gauge Tin Mine track, approx 4-5 miles?, long which we rode last year. It uses 0-4-0 open cab engines, and you may be able to ride the plate as I did. There is another GWR steam railway daily excursion from Buckfastliegh to Totnes which is also worth a visit, but probably not quite as good as the Dartmouth trip. However if heading north, the Seven Vally line and Dinting Railway have to be on your (our) list. When I visited Dinting two years ago, they had over 12 Castles, Manors, Kings etc, and lots of rolling stock. You can also visit the rebuild shops while in actual action. So many tracks and not enough time. Have a great trip. Regards, Tony D. I have enlisted! I've enlisted to test ride my nephew's 2' gauge railway on his farm in Cornwall. Also to play trains with his train mad 7 year old son. Steam a Basset Lowke (spelling?) of yesteryear perhaps. A much more important title than Brigadier--you will be able to call me ENGINE DRIVER!! Much better than being a pompous assed Brigadier. (No comment on how I might drive--please!) The closest I ever got to a Brigadier was when guarded the "brig" aboard the cruiser! No, I wasn't in it --but I lie a lot! I'll kiss the bridge (over the Thames) in Henley for you-- after I've crawled from the pub next to the church where I was christened which is next to the bridge, which is next to the police station! Hopefully, I'll see some old GWR coaches somewhere there!?? Geoff. At 04:31 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >>you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! > >Geoff, > Don't tell me you've enlisted again! Haven't you done your share?! I >know, you thought you'd have just one more go at Brigadier! > >Regards, >Harry >
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
- Original Message - From: "Geoff Spenceley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings > Steam a Basset Lowke (spelling?) of yesteryear perhaps. 'Bassett-Lowke', tch,tch!! Sir Art
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Yer right again Harry chum, I have enlisted! I've enlisted to test ride my nephew's 2' gauge railway on his farm in Cornwall. Also to play trains with his train mad 7 year old son. Steam a Basset Lowke (spelling?) of yesteryear perhaps. A much more important title than Brigadier--you will be able to call me ENGINE DRIVER!! Much better than being a pompous assed Brigadier. (No comment on how I might drive--please!) The closest I ever got to a Brigadier was when guarded the "brig" aboard the cruiser! No, I wasn't in it --but I lie a lot! I'll kiss the bridge (over the Thames) in Henley for you-- after I've crawled from the pub next to the church where I was christened which is next to the bridge, which is next to the police station! Hopefully, I'll see some old GWR coaches somewhere there!?? Geoff. At 04:31 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >>you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! > >Geoff, > Don't tell me you've enlisted again! Haven't you done your share?! I >know, you thought you'd have just one more go at Brigadier! > >Regards, >Harry >
RE: Back to O rings
To Bob Thanks for answering my question on using goodall valves for feeding boilers. I hadn't heard about them having to be above the high water mark. Do you know the reason why? I figured the pressure to hold them closed would be the same in or out of water as the water is under the same pressure. Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Back to O rings Bob, I have used goodall type valves for feeding boilers. I have made my own with a union fitting instead the usual fill hole. They work fine, but have to be above your high water line to work. Bob
Re: RE: Back to O rings
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, KEVIN STRONG wrote: > (I've had too many leaky > check valves resulting in blown, melted, or otherwise problematic water > lines.) > Piffle, man! That's what a steam trap's for! --- Paul Anderson geeky1!paul "Nature has been kinder to us than we had any right to expect. --- Freeman Dyson
Re: RE: Back to O rings
> I am installing a water pump to add water to my engine while under > steam.Rather than using a regular check valve, is there any reason > I couldn't use > a goodall valve instead. Has amyone tried this? Bob There's no reason why it wouldn't work. A Goodall valve and a traditional check valve are both one way valves. I'd even trust a Goodall valve more than I would a check valve. (I've had too many leaky check valves resulting in blown, melted, or otherwise problematic water lines.) Later, K
Re: Back to O rings
Bob, I have used goodall type valves for feeding boilers. I have made my own with a union fitting instead the usual fill hole. They work fine, but have to be above your high water line to work. Bob
RE: Back to O rings
I am installing a water pump to add water to my engine while under steam. Rather than using a regular check valve, is there any reason I couldn't use a goodall valve instead. Has amyone tried this? Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Eorgoff Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 12:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Back to O rings This is a freebie from an o ring manufacturer and is their tech reference on design. http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/00-5700.pdf Mike Eorgoff
Re: Back to O rings
Hey Jeff, as great as that Mike of yours runs, I think I would leave well enough alone!! Steve S. At 07:18 AM 3/12/03 -0500, you wrote: Mike, a few years back I tried "O" rings in place of packing on my aster 8550 mogul. They worked great when new, but after sitting for a few weeks they leaked. I would put a new set in and it ran great the rest of the weekend. So I am back to packing. After building the Mike I am thinking about making new pistons and using a set of piston rings. The mogul has twin 13mm cyls.( it was originally a single cyl. version) same as the Mike. - Original Message - From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:53 AM Subject: Re: Back to O rings > Bob asked:- > > > << There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall >> > > > OK Mike, I realize that it need not, but how come there are countless books > > written with chapters on the process of good running fits on pistons? > > Probably because they weren't written by me. I believe a close fit is necessary > if you're using cast iron piston rings or cotton packing, but I have no > experience of these. The method I use is commonly used by proponents of O > rings, however. > > It works! > > Mike > >
Re: Back to O rings
I've stayed out of the oring thread until now, but since I work for a specialty seal company who makes high performance orings as well as other types of seals, I thought I'd put my two cents in here. One must consider material type used in the oring. The post below mentions leakage after sitting a few weeks. This is due to the compression set property of the material used. You have to pick a material with a high compression set that is listed as steam compatible. Here is a website that might help shed some additional light on the subject. Regards, Doug http://www.gtweed.com - Original message follows - Mike, a few years back I tried "O" rings in place of packing on my aster 8550 mogul. They worked great when new, but after sitting for a few weeks they leaked. I would put a new set in and it ran great the rest of the weekend. So I am back to packing. After building the Mike I am thinking about making new pistons and using a set of piston rings. The mogul has twin 13mm cyls.( it was originally a single cyl. version) same as the Mike. - Original Message - From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:53 AM Subject: Re: Back to O rings > Bob asked:- > > > << There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall >> > > > OK Mike, I realize that it need not, but how come there are countless books > > written with chapters on the process of good running fits on pistons? > > Probably because they weren't written by me. I believe a close fit is necessary > if you're using cast iron piston rings or cotton packing, but I have no > experience of these. The method I use is commonly used by proponents of O > rings, however. > > It works! > > Mike > >
Re: Back to O rings
Royce, In my opinion you should have the glands sealed up, but try this one, wrap some thread tape into the piston grooves, and use the same for the glands, test run, with the O rings in of course. Normally the Orings are not meant to be in ID contact, but lightly on the OD. The thread tape will pack out the o Rings onto the OD walls nicely, and bed in with the tape. Have used this method on 5" scale cylinders with good results, also. Cheers, William - Original Message - From: "Royce Woodbury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Back to O rings > > > Peter Foley wrote: > > > Before making new cylinders, why not make new pistons? That, to me, > > would be a considerably easier exercise, would it not? > > > > regards, > > > > pf > > > Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, > is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is > undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the > cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to > enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my > understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are > designed to work. But if this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new > pistons rather than new cylinders. > > PS. the Orings supplied by Gordon Watson (viton) were the correct OD > (.438). I bought some Buna-N orings at the local tool supply store and > they are undersize. I concluded that they wouldn't work UNLESS the OD > of the piston groove were increased to bring the OD up to .438. Again, > I ruled this out based on the logic above. But if it is OK to capture > the Oring, please let me know before I make new cylinders. > > Thanks again you guys. > > royce in SB > and back to work >
Re: Back to O rings
Mike, a few years back I tried "O" rings in place of packing on my aster 8550 mogul. They worked great when new, but after sitting for a few weeks they leaked. I would put a new set in and it ran great the rest of the weekend. So I am back to packing. After building the Mike I am thinking about making new pistons and using a set of piston rings. The mogul has twin 13mm cyls.( it was originally a single cyl. version) same as the Mike. - Original Message - From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:53 AM Subject: Re: Back to O rings > Bob asked:- > > > << There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall >> > > > OK Mike, I realize that it need not, but how come there are countless books > > written with chapters on the process of good running fits on pistons? > > Probably because they weren't written by me. I believe a close fit is necessary > if you're using cast iron piston rings or cotton packing, but I have no > experience of these. The method I use is commonly used by proponents of O > rings, however. > > It works! > > Mike > >
Re: Back to O rings
Bob asked:- > << There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall >> > OK Mike, I realize that it need not, but how come there are countless books > written with chapters on the process of good running fits on pistons? Probably because they weren't written by me. I believe a close fit is necessary if you're using cast iron piston rings or cotton packing, but I have no experience of these. The method I use is commonly used by proponents of O rings, however. It works! Mike
Re: Back to O rings
At 09:25 AM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >My theory : when steam (air) is leaking past Orings somewhat >continuously Royce, I understand what you mean now. I know it as "blow-by." Regards, Harry
Re: Back to O rings
In a message dated 3/11/03 1:36:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall >> OK Mike, I realize that it need not, but how come there are countless books written with chapters on the process of good running fits on pistons. I find this interesting as I am just now refurbishing a cylinder that was in my scrap pile. When I ran it, I had a lot of blowby and when I took the piston out there was .015 difference between the bore. I did not measure the oring dimension but I suspect that was more the trouble. I actually have ruined more piston cutting the groove than missing that diameter. I just love it when the tool grabs the work and bends the rod and all! Bob
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
At 04:31 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! Geoff, Don't tell me you've enlisted again! Haven't you done your share?! I know, you thought you'd have just one more go at Brigadier! Regards, Harry
Re: Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
Thanks Harry for giving an intelligent response to my theory! Except, you dodged GWR, you see, I'll be there in a month! At 09:49 AM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >>You see Harry, . . . . you get four "soft sizzling farts" per rev > >Geoff old bean, >Ah yes, I hadn't thought of it in quite that way - much the same as >when I'm driving home from the Taco-Rama. It does seem to me though that >you would get either two, four, or none. I wouldn't think that a piston >o-ring would seal in one direction only, if it worked at all it would seal >in both directions, but apprently we have one that didn't. > >Regards, >Harry >
Back to the Wall was Back to O rings
At 09:49 AM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >You see Harry, . . . . you get four "soft sizzling farts" per rev Geoff old bean, Ah yes, I hadn't thought of it in quite that way - much the same as when I'm driving home from the Taco-Rama. It does seem to me though that you would get either two, four, or none. I wouldn't think that a piston o-ring would seal in one direction only, if it worked at all it would seal in both directions, but apprently we have one that didn't. Regards, Harry
Re: Back to O rings
Bob exclaimed:-- > << I typically make pistons about 0.030" undersize. >> > Wow, Mike that surprises me! I guess as long as you have the inner O ring > diameter with the interference fit that would work. I. too, like to use the > roll of the O ring. I can see that too much slop would cause excesive wear > of the front gland tho. There is no reason for the piston to touch the cylinder wall. It's job is simply to hold the O ring in position. It Works!! Mike
Re: Back to O rings
In a message dated 3/11/03 12:19:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I typically make pistons about 0.030" undersize. >> Wow, Mike that surprises me! I guess as long as you have the inner O ring diameter with the interference fit that would work. I. too, like to use the roll of the O ring. I can see that too much slop would cause excesive wear of the front gland tho. Bob
Re: Back to O rings
Boy am I confused now. Maybe someone else can sort out Royce's problem with not having the correct O ring. Clark Royce Woodbury wrote: > > I wrote : > > "Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, > is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is > undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the > cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to > enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my > understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are > designed to work, as it would increase friction unecessarily. But if > this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new pistons rather than new cylinders. > > PS. the Orings supplied by Gordon Watson (viton) were the correct OD > (.438). I bought some Buna-N orings at the local tool supply store and > they are undersize. I concluded that they wouldn't work UNLESS the OD > of the piston groove were increased to bring the OD up to .438. Again, > I ruled this out based on the logic above. But if it is OK to capture > the Oring, please let me know before I make new cylinders. " > > Thanks to Clark, Harry etc on other issues raised . . . . . > but does anyone have any thoughts on the above problem ? > > royce >
Re: Back to O rings
Royce asked:- > Now am I to assume that when you say the depth of the groove must allow > for an interference fit of .004-.006, does that mean that the OD of the > Oring as stretched by the groove diameter should result in an OD of > .004-.006 larger than the bore ? Or .008-.012 ? The latter - sorry, I should have made that clear Actually, you can get away with as little as 0.004" total interference, but you may need to select O rings to make it work. I use the higher figure as I try to make components interchangeable so that I can just put them together and know that they will work. Incidentally, provided that the back end of the piston rod is properly supported by a crosshead, the piston can be anything up to 0.060" smaller than the bore - which helps a lot if you're not much good at making things circular and concentric! I typically make pistons about 0.030" undersize. Mike
Re: Back to O rings
THANK YOU MIKE ! Now am I to assume that when you say the depth of the groove must allow for an interference fit of .004-.006, does that mean that the OD of the Oring as stretched by the groove diameter should result in an OD of .004-.006 larger than the bore ? Or .008-.012 ? And thanks to all the other folks who gave me research sites on Oring design, I've learned that in "traditional" Oring design, there IS an interference fit between the groove diameter and bore. NOT, as I was assuming, that the groove diameter is LESS than the ID of the Oring in it's free state. It would seem that this condition would provide the LEAST amount of friction while still contacting the bore with sufficient interference to seal against 40 psi. But I guess I'm wrong. Mike Chaney wrote: For the last 15 years, I've been fitting O rings as follows:- 1. The groove must be one and a half times wider than the O ring to allow it to roll. 2. The depth of the groove must allow an interference fit of about 0.004" to 0.006" to provide a good seal at the pressures we use for our small locos. This works! Note that the actual diameters of the piston or cylinder are not critical - it is the difference between them that needs to be spot on. The O ring will expand or be compressed to fit (within reason.) Mike Thanks to all. royce in SB - who's gettin close to having an actual steam loco.
Re: Back to O rings
Jim wrote, re Royce's problem:- > You're correct Royce, that O rings are designed to fit in xx" groove, there > are charts available to tell you EXACTLY what groove to make. But I think > Peter's spot on with the piston idea, you're only changing the size of the > oring a few thou and that should not be a show stopper. Experiment and run > under air for an hour or so to see how that oring seats. For the last 15 years, I've been fitting O rings as follows:- 1. The groove must be one and a half times wider than the O ring to allow it to roll. 2. The depth of the groove must allow an interference fit of about 0.004" to 0.006" to provide a good seal at the pressures we use for our small locos. This works! Note that the actual diameters of the piston or cylinder are not critical - it is the difference between them that needs to be spot on. The O ring will expand or be compressed to fit (within reason.) Mike
Re: Back to O rings
I wrote : "Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are designed to work, as it would increase friction unecessarily. But if this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new pistons rather than new cylinders. PS. the Orings supplied by Gordon Watson (viton) were the correct OD (.438). I bought some Buna-N orings at the local tool supply store and they are undersize. I concluded that they wouldn't work UNLESS the OD of the piston groove were increased to bring the OD up to .438. Again, I ruled this out based on the logic above. But if it is OK to capture the Oring, please let me know before I make new cylinders. " Thanks to Clark, Harry etc on other issues raised . . . . . but does anyone have any thoughts on the above problem ? royce
Re: Back to O rings
This is a freebie from an o ring manufacturer and is their tech reference on design. http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/00-5700.pdf Mike Eorgoff
Re: Back to O rings
>Harry wrote: > I say 4 beats per rev would be important to me also but I can't imagine what connection there could be between cylinder bore size and number of exhaust beats, although there may be. I'll have to think about this one for a while."< You see Harry, if the cyl bore is too large for the piston dia, you will get four "soft sizzling farts" per rev instead of four sharp beats. That's OK, don't thank me, I'm happy to guide you! I still have your GWR coach drawings!!--incredible! Geoff
Re: Back to O rings
Harry Wade wrote: A character-builder to be sure. My daughter just happened to visit me in the shop last night and we had a GREAT conversation while I sawed. royce in SB
Re: Back to O rings
Harry Wade wrote: I say 4 beats per rev would be important to me also but I can't imagine what connection there could be between cylinder bore size and number of exhaust beats, although there may be. I'll have to think about this one for a while. Regards, Harry My theory : when steam (air) is leaking past Orings somewhat continuously (even tho there seems to be enough power to keep the mechanism moving), there is no distinction between valve events and air flow. When there is no leakage (either piston Orings or slide valves) the distinction between steam events becomes noticeable. The oversize cylinder bore allows Oring leakage. royce in SB
Re: Back to O rings
It turns out that those same learned folks I spoke of in my last message on sealing piston rods also refer to the O ring manufacture's spec book. This calls out exact measurements for piston ring groove width and depth in relation to the cylinder bore and size of O ring to be used. If you happen to have a copy of the $3.00 Sulphur Springs Steam Models catalog #6 (or #'s 4 or 5) you will find those formulas on about page 26. Another choice is the $70.00 Engineering Handbook #26 or the $40.00 Tubal Cain book on Model engineering. And lastly you can always use www.google.com and search on "O Ring groove". Among the returned listings you will find http://www.marcorubber.com/glands_dynamic_reciprocating.htm This web page has all the necessary charts to figure out what's what. One commercial, I get my large (1 inch and up) Viton O-rings from http://www.oringswest.com/ Their web page has a size chart listed in the AS568A sizes (industry standard sizing) I get my small Viton O rings from Sulphur Springs Steam Models. SSSM is still the best place for small scale steam stuff. Good Luck Clark Royce Woodbury wrote: > > Peter Foley wrote: > > > Before making new cylinders, why not make new pistons? That, to me, > > would be a considerably easier exercise, would it not? > > > > regards, > > > > pf > > > Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, > is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is > undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the > cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to > enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my > understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are > designed to work. But if this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new > pistons rather than new cylinders.
Re: Back to O rings
You're correct Royce, that O rings are designed to fit in xx" groove, there are charts available to tell you EXACTLY what groove to make. But I think Peter's spot on with the piston idea, you're only changing the size of the oring a few thou and that should not be a show stopper. Experiment and run under air for an hour or so to see how that oring seats. Jim
Re: Back to O rings
At 08:08 AM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >I agree with you Harry. Well . . . doesn't everyone? (Sorry . . . . I just couldn't resist! :-) >Had I done this, it would have avoided me spending hours last night hacksawing blanks for new cylinders out of my 25 lb ingot of bronze. A character-builder to be sure. I would have looked at reboring, but then that's just me. >I concluded that I was going to have to make new cylinders with an ID of >.438 to get a 4 beat per revolution exhaust beat (important to me, for >some reason). What say ye ? >royce in SB I say 4 beats per rev would be important to me also but I can't imagine what connection there could be between cylinder bore size and number of exhaust beats, although there may be. I'll have to think about this one for a while. Regards, Harry
Re: Back to O rings
Peter Foley wrote: Before making new cylinders, why not make new pistons? That, to me, would be a considerably easier exercise, would it not? regards, pf Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are designed to work. But if this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new pistons rather than new cylinders. PS. the Orings supplied by Gordon Watson (viton) were the correct OD (.438). I bought some Buna-N orings at the local tool supply store and they are undersize. I concluded that they wouldn't work UNLESS the OD of the piston groove were increased to bring the OD up to .438. Again, I ruled this out based on the logic above. But if it is OK to capture the Oring, please let me know before I make new cylinders. Thanks again you guys. royce in SB and back to work
Re: Back to O rings
At 11:08 AM 11/03/03, royce in SB wrote: I would, however, like a comment on the issue of the bore being .442 vs Oring .438. I did an experiment by packing the O ring groove with a strip of brass to bring the OD up to .444 or so. Interestingly, the exhaust beat increased from 1 per revolution to 3 per revolution (it's hard to tell) while the friction increased (higher PSI req'd to start, run). This seemed to indicate that without the packing, alot of blowby was occuring in at least one of the cylinders. But if this were the case, why was I able to get it to run at all below say 7 PSI ? I concluded that I was going to have to make new cylinders with an ID of .438 to get a 4 beat per revolution exhaust beat (important to me, for some reason). Before making new cylinders, why not make new pistons? That, to me, would be a considerably easier exercise, would it not? regards, pf
Back to O rings
Harry Wade wrote: At 03:13 PM 3/8/03 -0500, you wrote: imports . . . . , not to be mean-spirited, but you do get what you pay for. I agree that if the tool won't do the job you've wasted your money and more, but these days I wouldn't automatically assume "imported" = poor quality. Regards, Harry I agree with you Harry. I think that the lesson I learned here is that if you're going to use non-name brand tooling, you MUST test it for it's intended use BEFORE using it on your work. Had I done this, it would have avoided me spending hours last night hacksawing blanks for new cylinders out of my 25 lb ingot of bronze. I would, however, like a comment on the issue of the bore being .442 vs Oring .438. I did an experiment by packing the O ring groove with a strip of brass to bring the OD up to .444 or so. Interestingly, the exhaust beat increased from 1 per revolution to 3 per revolution (it's hard to tell) while the friction increased (higher PSI req'd to start, run). This seemed to indicate that without the packing, alot of blowby was occuring in at least one of the cylinders. But if this were the case, why was I able to get it to run at all below say 7 PSI ? I concluded that I was going to have to make new cylinders with an ID of .438 to get a 4 beat per revolution exhaust beat (important to me, for some reason). What say ye ? royce in SB
