Re: Sell me on tiles revisited

[Frank Rizzo]

If you can add to the list of reasons why someone might want to use Tiles on their 
project, please visit http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsSellMeOnTiles
 
 

Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Sounds like a job for the Struts Wiki!

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsProjectPages



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Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears

Re: Sell me on tiles revisited

[Ted Husted]

Sounds like a job for the Struts Wiki!

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsProjectPages

Frank Rizzo wrote:

Why should we use tiles as opposed to anything else? I am told that this question comes often, so the list below has been compiled from this mailing list archive and other published articles to consolidate the arguments for using tiles.  If you have experience with tiles, please add, modify, or subtract from this list with the goal of creating a list that people can use when evaluating whether to use tiles or not on their project. 
 
1) Inheritence. Why don't we just use the  tag or @include to include common page elements? tiles definitions support inheritence. If you have 60 jsps, you have @include header.jsp repeated in every jsp. Next, imagine a new requirement dictates that the menu should be moved from the right side to the left. You now have to change 60 jsps.  If your application uses tiles, you change only one jsp, all of your jsps inherit from this layout jsp. 
 
2) If you have a standard site with a common layout (header, footer, menu, bodycontent), tiles does what you want to do very cleanly, integrates with Struts very nicely, and is a standard solution that you don't have to develop or document, and that your team members may already have experience with or at least be more excited about learning than an in-house, one-off system since that experience will have more value in the marketplace.
 
3) Using jsp:include or @ include you cannot internationalize parameterized content very easily.
 
4) Tiles-defs.xml offers a central document to determine which jsps are used in which places. If the developers follow mvc properly, a new person new to the project can get a sense of site flow and structure by looking at only struts-config.xml and tiles-defs.xml
 
5) You can use a tiles controller rather than write a custom tag. This is especially useful for creating a tile such as Amazon's "books you've recently browsed". The tile can plug in to any page without considering the Struts action code for that URL.
 
6) Tiles scope offers another namespace where attribute names will not collide.



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--
Ted Husted,
  Junit in Action  - ,
  Struts in Action - ,
  JSP Site Design  - .


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[OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

(apologies if you've already seen this but it did not seem to appear on the
list - almost positively user error - but attached again).

Hi Olivier,

I notice, actually in tiles examples, specifically:

tiles-documentation/layouts/vboxLayout.jsp

... there is a note that "don't use  tag because it doesn't allow
insert (in JSP1.1)" - there is a workaround though using scriptlet code -
that I think may be what you need.

H.

tiles-documentation/layouts/vboxLayout.jsp
--

<%@ page import="java.util.Iterator"%>
<%@ taglib uri="/WEB-INF/struts-tiles.tld" prefix="tiles" %>

<%-- Layout component
  Render a list of tiles in a vertical column
  @param : list List of names to insert

--%>



<%-- Iterate over names.
  We don't use  tag because it doesn't allow insert (in JSP1.1)
 --%>
<%
Iterator i=list.iterator();
while( i.hasNext() )
  {
  String name= (String)i.next();
%>



<%
  } // end loop
%>

-Original Message-
From: ROSSEL Olivier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 February 2003 16:50
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles


> Tiles is a major pita to set up but its amazing how much time
> it saves down
> the road.
> I think its awesome just from the fact that u dont need to worry about
> putting all the decorations on a page (nav bar/header/footer
> etc) and only
> need to worry about the meat and potatoes part.
> Aside from using it as a layout manager however, there's a
> few other things
> that it can be helpful for.
> I would suggest going to the main tiles site to see all the
> stuff it can
> add.

A tiles tag can not be inside a logic:iterate.
It is a very painful limitation.

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RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Raymaker, Dora]

-Original Message-
From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 12:32 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

I'm pretty sure the solution is to use another table outside of this one and
have yet another nested table - but this is a special case just for Opera.
(Ok and w3c compliance, presumably). 



 Another solution is to use CSS2 positioning, then u
can avoid using tables for formatting altogether (use nice structural div
tags instead!) and still be in w3c compliance.  It works great. 

-D.

RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[David Graham]

The problem is that the height attribute for tr elements is undefined in 
HTML 4.01 spec.  Using non-standard attributes and elements will always lead 
to compatibility problems.

David



From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:31:38 -

;-> Actually Opera do supply it as a "deb" for Linux so we might well give
it a try - as all development happens on Debian workstations. I guess it's
not supplied as part of Debs as it's not OSS?

I remember the problem now... when using  Opera (probably
rightly) allocates 100% of the table - the consequence being the footer
drops off the bottom of the browser and you get a scrollbar at any
resolution. This doesn't happen in IE or Moz. (Of course I'm not saying IE
and Moz are correct to do this).

I'm pretty sure the solution is to use another table outside of this one 
and
have yet another nested table - but this is a special case just for Opera.
(Ok and w3c compliance, presumably). There are loads of googles on this and
just before we get to production we'll deal with it then. After all we have
to keep the Opera fans happy - it was my first real browser before I was
Mozilla.org'ed.

Thanks for your comments. If you don't mind - I appreciate it's very OT -
but if you have the answer to the above I'd be very grateful of your input.

Kind regards,

H.

-Original Message-----
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 19:21
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


If it looks ok in Opera, then it will look ok in the other browsers.  Maybe
you should test in Opera first ;-).

David



>From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:54:45 -
>
> >> Opera suppports the w3c standards
>more closely than the other browsers. <<
>
>That's probably the problem! No, seriously there are some dirty tricks 
used
>just to get the site up and running - before a proper review to ensure it
>is
>compliant. Last time I tried Opera it was not displaying nicely - lines
>very
>thick I think (but does not occur on IE or Moz) - I was just warning in
>case
>I got emails from anyone pointing out Opera may look strange. Rightly or
>wrongly we get to checking Opera last - but it will displays correctly in
>Opera before it's in production.
>
>H.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 17:45
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>Why do you need special stuff for Opera?  Opera suppports the w3c 
standards
>more closely than the other browsers.
>
>David
>
>
>
> >From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:34:29 -
> >
> >Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is
>actually
> >hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will
>not
> >connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.
> >
> >Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a
>bit
> >strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if
>you
> >can connect!
> >
> >H.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
> >To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and
>Mozilla.
> >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
> > >To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > >Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> > >
> > >
> > >Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
> > >they felt would
> > >be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
> > >
> > >You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
> > >will not be
> > >surp

RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

;-> Actually Opera do supply it as a "deb" for Linux so we might well give
it a try - as all development happens on Debian workstations. I guess it's
not supplied as part of Debs as it's not OSS?

I remember the problem now... when using  Opera (probably
rightly) allocates 100% of the table - the consequence being the footer
drops off the bottom of the browser and you get a scrollbar at any
resolution. This doesn't happen in IE or Moz. (Of course I'm not saying IE
and Moz are correct to do this).

I'm pretty sure the solution is to use another table outside of this one and
have yet another nested table - but this is a special case just for Opera.
(Ok and w3c compliance, presumably). There are loads of googles on this and
just before we get to production we'll deal with it then. After all we have
to keep the Opera fans happy - it was my first real browser before I was
Mozilla.org'ed.

Thanks for your comments. If you don't mind - I appreciate it's very OT -
but if you have the answer to the above I'd be very grateful of your input.

Kind regards,

H.

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 19:21
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


If it looks ok in Opera, then it will look ok in the other browsers.  Maybe
you should test in Opera first ;-).

David



>From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:54:45 -
>
> >> Opera suppports the w3c standards
>more closely than the other browsers. <<
>
>That's probably the problem! No, seriously there are some dirty tricks used
>just to get the site up and running - before a proper review to ensure it
>is
>compliant. Last time I tried Opera it was not displaying nicely - lines
>very
>thick I think (but does not occur on IE or Moz) - I was just warning in
>case
>I got emails from anyone pointing out Opera may look strange. Rightly or
>wrongly we get to checking Opera last - but it will displays correctly in
>Opera before it's in production.
>
>H.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 17:45
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>Why do you need special stuff for Opera?  Opera suppports the w3c standards
>more closely than the other browsers.
>
>David
>
>
>
> >From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:34:29 -
> >
> >Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is
>actually
> >hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will
>not
> >connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.
> >
> >Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a
>bit
> >strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if
>you
> >can connect!
> >
> >H.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
> >To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and
>Mozilla.
> >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
> > >To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > >Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> > >
> > >
> > >Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
> > >they felt would
> > >be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
> > >
> > >You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
> > >will not be
> > >surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely
> > >usurped Microsoft
> > >ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen
> > >development framework.
> > >
> > >Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions
> > >were built in
> > >both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP).
> > >Decision was
> > >based on struts reducing the development time AND main

RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[David Graham]

If it looks ok in Opera, then it will look ok in the other browsers.  Maybe 
you should test in Opera first ;-).

David



From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:54:45 -

>> Opera suppports the w3c standards
more closely than the other browsers. <<

That's probably the problem! No, seriously there are some dirty tricks used
just to get the site up and running - before a proper review to ensure it 
is
compliant. Last time I tried Opera it was not displaying nicely - lines 
very
thick I think (but does not occur on IE or Moz) - I was just warning in 
case
I got emails from anyone pointing out Opera may look strange. Rightly or
wrongly we get to checking Opera last - but it will displays correctly in
Opera before it's in production.

H.

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 17:45
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


Why do you need special stuff for Opera?  Opera suppports the w3c standards
more closely than the other browsers.

David



>From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:34:29 -
>
>Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is 
actually
>hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will 
not
>connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.
>
>Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a 
bit
>strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if 
you
>can connect!
>
>H.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and 
Mozilla.
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
> >To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
> >they felt would
> >be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
> >
> >You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
> >will not be
> >surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely
> >usurped Microsoft
> >ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen
> >development framework.
> >
> >Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions
> >were built in
> >both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP).
> >Decision was
> >based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance
> >overhead this
> >would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.
> >
> >Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time
> >there will also
> >be a section added on the website about the technology used and
> >acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate
> >section will also
> >be referenced on the development website giving the technical
> >justification
> >for why struts was chosen as the framework.
> >
> >H.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
> >To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
> >> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
> >> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
> >> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
> >> breeze.
> >>
> >> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
> >> sites at:
> >>
> >> 	http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
> >>
> >> ... the full production version will be released very soon.
> >
> >Aiii! My eyes!
> >
> >Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful.
> >Amazing what a
> >well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting
> >the job done.
> >
> >> My personal view is (and

RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

>> Opera suppports the w3c standards
more closely than the other browsers. <<

That's probably the problem! No, seriously there are some dirty tricks used
just to get the site up and running - before a proper review to ensure it is
compliant. Last time I tried Opera it was not displaying nicely - lines very
thick I think (but does not occur on IE or Moz) - I was just warning in case
I got emails from anyone pointing out Opera may look strange. Rightly or
wrongly we get to checking Opera last - but it will displays correctly in
Opera before it's in production.

H.

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 17:45
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


Why do you need special stuff for Opera?  Opera suppports the w3c standards
more closely than the other browsers.

David



>From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:34:29 -
>
>Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is actually
>hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will not
>connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.
>
>Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a bit
>strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if you
>can connect!
>
>H.
>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and Mozilla.
>
> >-----Original Message-
> >From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
> >To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
> >they felt would
> >be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
> >
> >You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
> >will not be
> >surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely
> >usurped Microsoft
> >ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen
> >development framework.
> >
> >Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions
> >were built in
> >both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP).
> >Decision was
> >based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance
> >overhead this
> >would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.
> >
> >Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time
> >there will also
> >be a section added on the website about the technology used and
> >acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate
> >section will also
> >be referenced on the development website giving the technical
> >justification
> >for why struts was chosen as the framework.
> >
> >H.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
> >To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles
> >
> >
> >> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
> >> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
> >> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
> >> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
> >> breeze.
> >>
> >> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
> >> sites at:
> >>
> >>http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
> >>
> >> ... the full production version will be released very soon.
> >
> >Aiii! My eyes!
> >
> >Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful.
> >Amazing what a
> >well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting
> >the job done.
> >
> >> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) -
> >with tiles
> >> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be
> >> really missing-out
> >> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.
> >
> >I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a
> >college prof -- in
> >my spare time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 

RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[David Graham]

Why do you need special stuff for Opera?  Opera suppports the w3c standards 
more closely than the other browsers.

David



From: "Hue Holleran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:34:29 -

Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is actually
hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will not
connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.

Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a bit
strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if you
can connect!

H.

-Original Message-
From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and Mozilla.

>-Original Message-
>From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
>they felt would
>be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
>
>You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
>will not be
>surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely
>usurped Microsoft
>ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen
>development framework.
>
>Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions
>were built in
>both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP).
>Decision was
>based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance
>overhead this
>would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.
>
>Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time
>there will also
>be a section added on the website about the technology used and
>acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate
>section will also
>be referenced on the development website giving the technical
>justification
>for why struts was chosen as the framework.
>
>H.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
>> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
>> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
>> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
>> breeze.
>>
>> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
>> sites at:
>>
>> 	http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
>>
>> ... the full production version will be released very soon.
>
>Aiii! My eyes!
>
>Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful.
>Amazing what a
>well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting
>the job done.
>
>> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) -
>with tiles
>> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be
>> really missing-out
>> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.
>
>I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a
>college prof -- in
>my spare time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 12 pages
>total, but I'm
>using tiles for it because it makes life so much easier.
>Without it I would
>have an amalgamation of includes, and life would generally be much more
>difficult.
>
>Tiles or death!
>
>-= J
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

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RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

Sorry to all who can't access - I've had a few emails! The site is actually
hosted on a high port number that some firewalls/corporate proxies will not
connect to. Once in production it will be on good ol' port 80.

Also the mods for Opera have not been done yet - so Opera may display a bit
strangely but again will be fine in production. IE and Moz are fine if you
can connect!

H.

-Original Message-
From: Chappell, Simon P [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 16:22
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles


I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and Mozilla.

>-Original Message-
>From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours
>they felt would
>be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
>
>You should all feel great as struts developers - although this
>will not be
>surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely
>usurped Microsoft
>ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen
>development framework.
>
>Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions
>were built in
>both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP).
>Decision was
>based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance
>overhead this
>would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.
>
>Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time
>there will also
>be a section added on the website about the technology used and
>acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate
>section will also
>be referenced on the development website giving the technical
>justification
>for why struts was chosen as the framework.
>
>H.
>
>-----Original Message-
>From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
>> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
>> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
>> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
>> breeze.
>>
>> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
>> sites at:
>>
>>  http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
>>
>> ... the full production version will be released very soon.
>
>Aiii! My eyes!
>
>Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful.
>Amazing what a
>well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting
>the job done.
>
>> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) -
>with tiles
>> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be
>> really missing-out
>> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.
>
>I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a
>college prof -- in
>my spare time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 12 pages
>total, but I'm
>using tiles for it because it makes life so much easier.
>Without it I would
>have an amalgamation of includes, and life would generally be much more
>difficult.
>
>Tiles or death!
>
>-= J
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

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RE: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Chappell, Simon P]

I can't get the site to display at all, and i've tried both IE and Mozilla.

>-Original Message-
>From: Hue Holleran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:20 AM
>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>Subject: [OT] RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours 
>they felt would
>be eye-catching (damaging) (!)
>
>You should all feel great as struts developers - although this 
>will not be
>surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely 
>usurped Microsoft
>ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen 
>development framework.
>
>Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions 
>were built in
>both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP). 
>Decision was
>based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance 
>overhead this
>would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.
>
>Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time 
>there will also
>be a section added on the website about the technology used and
>acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate 
>section will also
>be referenced on the development website giving the technical 
>justification
>for why struts was chosen as the framework.
>
>H.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles
>
>
>> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
>> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
>> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
>> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
>> breeze.
>>
>> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
>> sites at:
>>
>>  http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
>>
>> ... the full production version will be released very soon.
>
>Aiii! My eyes!
>
>Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful. 
>Amazing what a
>well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting 
>the job done.
>
>> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) - 
>with tiles
>> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be
>> really missing-out
>> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.
>
>I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a 
>college prof -- in
>my spare time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 12 pages 
>total, but I'm
>using tiles for it because it makes life so much easier. 
>Without it I would
>have an amalgamation of includes, and life would generally be much more
>difficult.
>
>Tiles or death!
>
>-= J
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

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[OT] RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

Choice of colours was the customer's - they picked colours they felt would
be eye-catching (damaging) (!)

You should all feel great as struts developers - although this will not be
surprising to the initiated - to know you've completely usurped Microsoft
ASP and the shiny new Microsoft ASP.NET as the chosen development framework.

Not a decision that was taken lightly - functioning versions were built in
both ASP and ASP.NET (and in vanilla JSP and initially PHP). Decision was
based on struts reducing the development time AND maintenance overhead this
would entail in the future. Struts was a CLEAR winner.

Once this site is in full production use in a few weeks time there will also
be a section added on the website about the technology used and
acknowledging the use of the struts framework. A separate section will also
be referenced on the development website giving the technical justification
for why struts was chosen as the framework.

H.

-Original Message-
From: James Childers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 February 2003 15:41
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Sell me on tiles


> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles
> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't
> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but
> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a
> breeze.
>
> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production
> sites at:
>
>   http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
>
> ... the full production version will be released very soon.

Aiii! My eyes!

Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful. Amazing what a
well designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting the job done.

> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) - with tiles
> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be
> really missing-out
> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.

I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a college prof -- in
my spare time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 12 pages total, but I'm
using tiles for it because it makes life so much easier. Without it I would
have an amalgamation of includes, and life would generally be much more
difficult.

Tiles or death!

-= J

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RE: Sell me on tiles

[James Childers]

> I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles 
> was the "killer" feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't 
> misunderstand that struts isn't great anyway - we love it - but 
> the addition of tiles has made developing complex websites a 
> breeze.
> 
> There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production 
> sites at:
> 
>   http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/
> 
> ... the full production version will be released very soon. 

Aiii! My eyes!

Seriously, good job. We're glad that Struts could be helpful. Amazing what a well 
designed framework will do for your enthusiasm in getting the job done.

> My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) - with tiles
> available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be 
> really missing-out
> by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.

I sure don't disagree. I'm doing a site for my wife -- a college prof -- in my spare 
time. It's a very simple site, maybe 10 - 12 pages total, but I'm using tiles for it 
because it makes life so much easier. Without it I would have an amalgamation of 
includes, and life would generally be much more difficult.

Tiles or death!

-= J

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RE: Sell me on tiles

[Hue Holleran]

I appreciate you've had lots of replies already - but tiles was the "killer"
feature for us in selecting struts. Please don't misunderstand that struts
isn't great anyway - we love it - but the addition of tiles has made
developing complex websites a breeze.

There is a very outdated "first-cut" of one of our production sites at:

http://www.mortgagesurgery.com/

... the full production version will be released very soon. This was
developed entirely using tiles and would have taken much, much longer
without tiles. It's using tiles everywhere - mainly using definitions from
tiles-defs.xml. The main menu is a header/body/footer tile with a
"niceBoxGreen" tile inserted that has a further body content - and each menu
bar option is a tile - so the hover/onclick code was only written once and
then used by inserting 6 tiles with different parameters. The tabbed-frame
on the first option was also created using tiles - this would have been a
nightmare without tiles - trust me this was first developed in ASP and
ASP.NET until I discarded both and looked for something better - and it now
uses the very wonderful struts.

Also see:

http://www.openaction.co.uk/jserv/

... ok it's just a pretty naff holding page but tiles allowed this to be
created in 1 hour. It has a tiles header/body/footer outer definition. A
further "niceBoxBlue" is inserted in the bodyContent that gives the "Coming
Soon!" box and this has a "titleString" property for the header and a
further "bodyContent" that contains the page with the text. This wouldn't
even be possible to do without really inelegant code and jsp includes.

I'm not saying these are great examples of what tiles can do - Cedric has
some superb portal and other configurable options that really show the power
of tiles.

My personal view is (and I'm sure someone will disagree!) - with tiles
available and so well-integrated into struts - you'd be really missing-out
by not using it - even for the simplest of sites.

There are loads of examples on tiles - I found Wellie Chao's article
(referenced in tiles resources) at the IBM site really helped me learn tiles
initially and also has a great justification for using tiles:

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-strutstiles.html?loc=j

Hue.

-Original Message-
From: Southard, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 18 February 2003 16:34
To: Struts User Group (E-mail)
Subject: Sell me on tiles


We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a point where
we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
that would really make us want to go with this feature.

All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
tiles?

-- L. Don Southard
   303 218 4823
   x4823


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Re: Sell me on tiles

[David Geary]

The major selling point of tiles is that you can encapsulate, and reuse, 
page layouts, much as you can reuse layout managers in classic UI 
frameworks such as Struts. Beyond that, tiles have many other features 
that will save you a great deal of time and effort, such as extending an 
existing tile to create a new one.


david


Southard, Don wrote:

We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a point where
we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
that would really make us want to go with this feature. 

All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
tiles? 

-- L. Don Southard
  303 218 4823
  x4823


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Re: Sell me on tiles

[Dennis Muhlestein]

We migrated from using <%@include ... to tiles last year.
Development for is on an order of magnitude easier for our graphics
designer.  Instead of ugly header.jsp/footer.jsp type logic, you have 
template.jsp with body.jsp/sidebar.jsp stuff like that.  No need from
broken html in include files any more.

-Dennis


On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 09:34, Southard, Don wrote:
> We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a point where
> we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
> it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
> our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
> that would really make us want to go with this feature. 
> 
> All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
> tiles? 
> 
> -- L. Don Southard
>303 218 4823
>x4823
> 
> 
> -
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> 


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RE: Sell me on tiles

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> Tiles is a major pita to set up but its amazing how much time 
> it saves down
> the road.
> I think its awesome just from the fact that u dont need to worry about
> putting all the decorations on a page (nav bar/header/footer 
> etc) and only
> need to worry about the meat and potatoes part.
> Aside from using it as a layout manager however, there's a 
> few other things
> that it can be helpful for.
> I would suggest going to the main tiles site to see all the 
> stuff it can
> add.

A tiles tag can not be inside a logic:iterate.
It is a very painful limitation.

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RE: Sell me on tiles

[Mike Mattox]

Look through the examples in the tiles-documentation WAR and see what you
can do with it.  I don't think I could live with out.  I like having
separate tiles for my header, menubar, footer, etc.  I also like to make
reusable components out of things I use in several JSPs.  For example, if
you have a JSP and action that gets a list of say customers out of the
database, you can make that a tile and then just insert the tile whenever
you need it.

If you don't think you need it then don't use it.  Keep it simple.  You can
always add it in later.

Michael

> -Original Message-
> From: Southard, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: mardi 18 février 2003 17:34
> To: Struts User Group (E-mail)
> Subject: Sell me on tiles
>
>
> We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a
> point where
> we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
> it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
> our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
> that would really make us want to go with this feature.
>
> All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
> tiles?
>
> -- L. Don Southard
>303 218 4823
>x4823
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>



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RE: Sell me on tiles

[Chen, Gin]

Tiles is a major pita to set up but its amazing how much time it saves down
the road.
I think its awesome just from the fact that u dont need to worry about
putting all the decorations on a page (nav bar/header/footer etc) and only
need to worry about the meat and potatoes part.
Aside from using it as a layout manager however, there's a few other things
that it can be helpful for.
I would suggest going to the main tiles site to see all the stuff it can
add.
-Tim

-Original Message-
From: Southard, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:34 AM
To: Struts User Group (E-mail)
Subject: Sell me on tiles


We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a point where
we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
that would really make us want to go with this feature. 

All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
tiles? 

-- L. Don Southard
   303 218 4823
   x4823


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Re: Sell me on tiles

[David Graham]

What would you use instead?  I like it because of the central xml 
configuration.  The only tiles tag I use is  to place the 
components in the proper place and leave the rest up to the xml config. 
file.  Each JSP you write can be reused in any place you need that 
particular view and it's not tied to any surrounding layout.

David



From: "Southard, Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts User Group (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Sell me on tiles
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:34:29 -0700

We are starting a fairly new project using struts.  We are at a point where
we need to make a decision on using tiles or not using tiles. On one hand
it's not too hard to implement (one developer already has it working with
our project).  On the other hand we haven't seen any added functionality
that would really make us want to go with this feature.

All that said can someone give me some brief points on why we should use
tiles?

-- L. Don Southard
   303 218 4823
   x4823


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