Re: [biofuel] Straight WVO question (hydrogen comment)

[Z41534EUS]

adrian just a hint in alaska during korean war our deisle would solidify we 
used to add 15 gal kerosene per 100 gallons fuel usually kept it liquid and 
fired units right up

Original Message 
Subj:[biofuel] Straight WVO question (hydrogen comment)
Date:   9/18/2001 9:45:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aidan Wilkins)
Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com

Hello,

I have a quick question about installing a SVO/biodiesel tank.  I own a 
1990 VW Jetta which has a large space (10L +) available under the hood on the 
passenger side.  I plan on having a stainless steel tank made which will fit 
there.  What I would like to know is if I will need to heat the output and 
input lines from the tank?  I will  have just enough room for the filter and 
tank switch.  There will be little hose between the tank and the pump.  I 
have also thought that a bit of ducting and a fan off the exhaust pipe might 
help keep the filter and solenoid warm.  I hope to make the tank soon and by 
not needing to heat the SVO for that short distance (6" - 8") would make the 
tank simpler, but I want it to work.

Also does anyone know if I will have any problems with the injector pump 
in my 90 VW Jetta running SVO or Biodiesel?  


My thoughts on Hydrogen fuel cells.  I for one would much rather be filling 
up and carrying around Biodiesel than Hydrogen!  But I do realize that a 
number of people have put a lot of time and money into hydrogen, therefore 
they will stand beside their investment no matter how viable and realistic it 
may be.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[Z41534EUS]

lol greg don't they might get hurt if they are that numb

Original Message 
Subj:Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
Date:   9/18/2001 1:22:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (greg)
Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com

perhaps we should tell them it`s in water, and we will never run out of
that.  greg m
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:14 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question


> No one on this list, that I know of, has suggested supplies of hydrogen
are locked to the supply of fossil fuels, but a surprising number of people
are under that impression. Hydrogen from electrolysis is expensive now, but
don't be so sure it will remain so. The Phoenix Project is just one example
of how electrolysis-produced hydrogen could be made much cheaper. Worldwide
several hundred billion dollars has been invested to develop cheap hydrogen,
from electrolysis, within 10 years. Ask nanotech/biotech researchers about
near term prospects for cheap hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources. For
excellent reasons, unprecedented advances, are anticipated within ten years.
Bob 
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil fuels
> do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as
hydrogen
> from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to
energy conversion losses.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> >
> > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> > Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> > we borrow it from our children.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
> >
> >
> > > At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will
run
> > out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example
of
> > how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
> >  --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > > hydrogen?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > =
> > > > Steve
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > __
> > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
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> > >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>


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[biofuel] Going back to making biodiesel

[Ken]

Hi all,

I was reading something on the net about oleochemicals and had something
about free fatty acids.  it says when we try to make methyl ester with alot
of free fatty acids, what happens is the free fatty acid reacts first with
the sodium methoxide and form a soap.  This soap forms an emulsion that
retards the reaction of the triglycerides and the methanol.  Has anyone
tried putting the methanol first into the oil before adding the caustic
soda flakes?  

Thanks

Ken


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Re: [biofuel] How do you convert a fuel injected vehicle?

[robert luis rabello]

Someone whose name I can't recall wrote:

> "Unfortunately, all of my vehicles are fuel injected.  If they weren't
> I'd be  drilling out carburetor jets for ethanol.   As it is I'm trying
> to figure out how to remap their fuel injection systems to deal with
> ethanol.   I know it's more expensive than gasoline for urban dwellers
> like me, but I don't care.   I see eliminating my personal dependence on
> gasoline as striking a blow, if a small one, at the terrorists source of
> funding."
>
>

In some ways, fuel injection should be EASIER for ethanol conversion.  The
way I understand automotive multi port systems, the individual injectors spray a
finite amount of fuel per pulse, and the "pulses per second" factor is 
controlled
by a fuel map burned into the engine control computer.  The on board computer
compares engine rpm, mass air flow (diesel engines use turbo boost), throttle
position and the value from the oxygen sensor to select the correct air / fuel
ratio.  Perhaps someone with a better brain than mine could use these values as 
a
starting point, multiply them by a given factor, and develop a preliminary fuel
map for ethanol that works with a particular engine.  Given that this is a
software, rather than a hardware issue, a person with limited mechanical skills,
but strong computer skills, might be able to make it work effectively.  Modern
propane and natural gas conversions with feedback loops use the stock computer,
so it CAN be done.

(As an aside, I'm lead to believe that the flexible fuel system used on the
Taurus and Ranger V-6 engines utilizes a device that measures the specific
gravity of the fuel in the tank, then feeds this factor into the on board
computer.  The injectors and fuel pump are identical for gasoline and ethanol, 
or
any combination thereof, but the computer varies the number and duration of fuel
pulses depending on the detected fuel. Please help me if I'm wrong in this.)

Some aftermarket conversions, like the Holley and Edelbrock systems, allow
the customer to specify the values for each rpm and throttle position with a
laptop computer.  (The 10 liter Cummins turbo diesel used in Class 8 trucks can
be completely reprogrammed this way.)  Slap on a turbo for increased compression
pressure, re-program the system computer, and a clever person might be able to
drive an ethanol powered vehicle that delivers the same, or even better
performance, than the same car on gasoline with little in the way of engine
modifications.  (Ok, the turbo is a pretty significant project, but I digress . 
.
.)

Now, if only we could get our governments to decriminalize home scale 
ethanol
fuel production . . .

robert luis rabello


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[biofuel] SUNSHINE FARM

[Bill Porter]

The 25th anniversary issue of the Land Report recently published by the Land
Institute featured this article.  Its rather long so here is the URL:
http://www.landinstitute.org/texis/scripts/vnews/newspaper/+/ART/2001/03/28/
3accb0712?inarc=1

There is some interesting data in the tables comparing Amish farms to
organic biofuel farms and to the USA in 1940 as well as data on other
countries.  This appears to be a creditable study giving some information on
the total embodied energy of biofuels showing them to have a positive EROI -
more energy output than needed as inputs.

I see this as an option for many to preserve much of what is best in our
society.
Anerobic methane digesters on a medium sized farm that grows soy or
sunflower
 seeds for their oil could become "centers" for a sustainable society
post-crash that
supports multi-family groups.

Defense of the farm would be an equally important issue.

It is possible to work with local Community Supported Agriculture programs.
I also see that local mueseum has a working steam powered machine tool shop
in the WW II vintage 1940s exhibit and another nearby mueseum has a
collection of horse drawn farm implements on display.  Perhaps these will be
put to work again.  I recall a 1960s sci-fi story about survivors making
trips to the city after a collapse to salvage things worth preserving,
anyone know the title?

Bill Porter
Cincinnati, OH.


PS:  My own work with non-hybrid oil seeds failed this year as mice ate the
seed.  So I had a low germination rate, which was followed by a drought.  We
didnt get much seed.  I have enough to replant next year and will start the
seed in small seed pots rather than sowing directly into the field.  I
expect this will be more labor intensive but provide better germination for
more plants.


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[biofuel] Straight WVO question (hydrogen comment)

[Aidan Wilkins]

Hello,

I have a quick question about installing a SVO/biodiesel tank.  I own a 
1990 VW Jetta which has a large space (10L +) available under the hood on the 
passenger side.  I plan on having a stainless steel tank made which will fit 
there.  What I would like to know is if I will need to heat the output and 
input lines from the tank?  I will  have just enough room for the filter and 
tank switch.  There will be little hose between the tank and the pump.  I have 
also thought that a bit of ducting and a fan off the exhaust pipe might help 
keep the filter and solenoid warm.  I hope to make the tank soon and by not 
needing to heat the SVO for that short distance (6" - 8") would make the tank 
simpler, but I want it to work.

Also does anyone know if I will have any problems with the injector pump in 
my 90 VW Jetta running SVO or Biodiesel?  


My thoughts on Hydrogen fuel cells.  I for one would much rather be filling up 
and carrying around Biodiesel than Hydrogen!  But I do realize that a number of 
people have put a lot of time and money into hydrogen, therefore they will 
stand beside their investment no matter how viable and realistic it may be.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question

[steve spence]

I wait with baited breath (now where did those cats some from?)

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm

Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question


> Steve when you see hoe the lash boiler works you will wonder why didnt you
do
> this with a pickup truck
> and steamengine like stanley did.  Ans to dangerous
>
> Original Message
> Subj:Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> Date:   9/18/2001 6:56:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (steve spence)
> Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>
> why not batteries?
>  or use the grid as your battery?
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
>
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> we borrow it from our children.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew Layton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
>
>
> > In a thermodynamic sense: yes, a net loss.
> > However, consider that the input solar energy is essentially free.  If
> that
> > energy is serving no other rational purpose (i.e., not being captured as
> > some other usable form) then, I believe, it is better to store the
energy
> as
> > gaseous hydrogen than not at all.
> >
> > I'm not even going to go into all the problems that gaseous hydrogen
> > presents.  Yikes!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > it takes more energy to free the hydrogen than you get back. net loss.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> >
> > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> > Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> > we borrow it from our children.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> >
> >
> > > the electrolysis of water using solar cells should get you started
just
> be
> > > extreamly careful
> > >
> > > Original Message
> > > Subj:[biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> > > Date:   9/14/2001 5:24:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > > From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve W)
> > > Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > hydrogen?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > =
> > > Steve
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
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>
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[steve spence]

we don't have enough low cost energy to free the hydrogen from the
water.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm

Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question


> perhaps we should tell them it`s in water, and we will never run out of
> that.  greg m
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:14 AM
> Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
>
>
> > No one on this list, that I know of, has suggested supplies of hydrogen
> are locked to the supply of fossil fuels, but a surprising number of
people
> are under that impression. Hydrogen from electrolysis is expensive now,
but
> don't be so sure it will remain so. The Phoenix Project is just one
example
> of how electrolysis-produced hydrogen could be made much cheaper.
Worldwide
> several hundred billion dollars has been invested to develop cheap
hydrogen,
> from electrolysis, within 10 years. Ask nanotech/biotech researchers about
> near term prospects for cheap hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources. For
> excellent reasons, unprecedented advances, are anticipated within ten
years.
> Bob
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil
fuels
> > do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as
> hydrogen
> > from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to
> energy conversion losses.
> > >
> > > Steve Spence
> > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> > > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> > >
> > > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> > > Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> > > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> > > we borrow it from our children.
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
> > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
> > >
> > >
> > > > At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen
will
> run
> > > out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one
example
> of
> > > how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
> > >  --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > > > hydrogen?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > =
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >
> > > > > __
> > > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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> > > >
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [biofuel] (unknown)

[steve spence]

I've had good luck as low as 38F, and mix with kerosene at lower temps.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: "Pip J. Patton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:46 PM
Subject: [biofuel] (unknown)


> Can  anyone tell me how low of an ambient temp bio diesel is good for
> using, and what kind of additive is the best for cold weather use?
> 
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[biofuel] Re: Ethanol from cellulose

[k5farms]

Hey Ted, What kinda lingo- would this be?? and would it have anything 
to do with the States $.40/gal ethanol support?? By DALE WETZEL, 
Associated Press Writer 

BISMARCK, N.D. (AP) - Rather than corn or barley, North Dakota's 
newest ethanol project might rely on coal. 

Dakota Gasification Co., which runs the Great Plains synthetic fuels 
plant near Beulah, N.D., has applied for state research money to 
study whether lignite, a type of coal, can be used profitably to make 
ethanol. 

The process would use bacteria to convert lignite to ethanol, a 
widely used fuel additive. Ethanol increases the energy value of 
gasoline and helps it to burn more cleanly. 

Ted Aulich, a process chemist at the Energy and Environmental 
Research Center at the University of North Dakota, said coal-to-
ethanol research has been going on for years. 

``Just going by what I've seen in some of the technical literature, 
it sounds like these guys are pretty convinced it is commercially 
viable,'' Aulich said. ``I don't see any reason why it can't be.'' 

Most U.S. ethanol plants process corn or other agricultural products. 
None of the nation's 57 ethanol plants rely on coal, according to the 
Renewable Fuels Association, a Washington, D.C.-based organization 
that promotes ethanol. 

The method for converting coal to ethanol relies on technology 
developed by Bioengineering Resources Inc. of Fayetteville, Ark. The 
company has licensed the technology to an Ohio firm that hopes to 
work with Dakota Gas in the project. 

``The idea is there. The potential is there,'' said Daryl Hill, a 
Dakota Gas spokesman. ``Now what we have to do is see if it's going 
to work.'' 

Dakota Gas and its partner, Metropolitan Energy Systems Inc. of 
Cincinnati, have applied for $5 million in state aid. The plan calls 
for expanding the Great Plains plant to produce ethanol. 

Developers say the project would create 100 new permanent jobs, use 
500,000 tons of coal each year and manufacture 30 million gallons of 
ethanol annually. 

Nationally, the ethanol industry is in the process of expanding. 
Thirteen plants are under construction nationwide, the Renewable 
Fuels Association says. 



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[biofuel] (unknown)

[Pip J. Patton]

Can  anyone tell me how low of an ambient temp bio diesel is good for
using, and what kind of additive is the best for cold weather use?

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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[greg]

perhaps we should tell them it`s in water, and we will never run out of
that.  greg m
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:14 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question


> No one on this list, that I know of, has suggested supplies of hydrogen
are locked to the supply of fossil fuels, but a surprising number of people
are under that impression. Hydrogen from electrolysis is expensive now, but
don't be so sure it will remain so. The Phoenix Project is just one example
of how electrolysis-produced hydrogen could be made much cheaper. Worldwide
several hundred billion dollars has been invested to develop cheap hydrogen,
from electrolysis, within 10 years. Ask nanotech/biotech researchers about
near term prospects for cheap hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources. For
excellent reasons, unprecedented advances, are anticipated within ten years.
Bob 
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil fuels
> do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as
hydrogen
> from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to
energy conversion losses.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> >
> > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> > Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> > we borrow it from our children.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
> >
> >
> > > At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will
run
> > out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example
of
> > how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
> >  --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > > hydrogen?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > =
> > > > Steve
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > __
> > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question

[Z41534EUS]

Steve when you see hoe the lash boiler works you will wonder why didnt you do 
this with a pickup truck
and steamengine like stanley did.  Ans to dangerous

Original Message 
Subj:Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
Date:   9/18/2001 6:56:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (steve spence)
Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com

why not batteries?
 or use the grid as your battery?

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew Layton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question


> In a thermodynamic sense: yes, a net loss.
> However, consider that the input solar energy is essentially free.  If
that
> energy is serving no other rational purpose (i.e., not being captured as
> some other usable form) then, I believe, it is better to store the energy
as
> gaseous hydrogen than not at all.
>
> I'm not even going to go into all the problems that gaseous hydrogen
> presents.  Yikes!
>
>
>
>
> it takes more energy to free the hydrogen than you get back. net loss.
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
>
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> we borrow it from our children.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
>
>
> > the electrolysis of water using solar cells should get you started just
be
> > extreamly careful
> >
> > Original Message
> > Subj:[biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> > Date:   9/14/2001 5:24:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve W)
> > Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Hello,
> >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > hydrogen?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> > =
> > Steve
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>
>
>


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[biofuels-biz] Dave's calculations....

[Jan Sur—wka]

Hi Dave,

Your calculations are OK.

All the others, please give the attention of the ratio of apparent heat to 
latent heat

latent heat is always a huge amount.

jan
thermo-dynamics specialist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[biofuels-biz] Re: drying waste oil

[ester11uk]

Check out http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/

This shows: the following specific heat capacities:
  #  Water   4.19 kj/kg/deg C 
  #  Oil, vegetable  1.68 kj/kg/deg C 

Water then needs another 2257 kj/kg to convert it into steam at the 
same temperature (latent heat of evaporation).

I've not done these sums for ages, so maybe a thermodynamics expert 
can confirm these calcs. I think this is about right...

To raise 1 kg of water from 20 degs to 100 degs C will use 80 x 4.19 
= 335.2 kilojoules. A 1kw heater with no losses (delivers 1kj per 
second) would need about 5.5 minutes to do the job.

To covert that water to steam will use another 2257 kilojoules. 
(That's another 37.6 minutes to boil it dry)

To raise 1 litre of oil from 20 to 100C uses 134 kilojoules. 

If we had 30 litres of oil contaminated with 1 litre of water (3%
approx), the total energy needed would be:
  #  Heat and boil water 335 + 2257   = 2592
  #  Heat 30kg of oil (134 x 30)  = 4020 
 Total= 6612

The perfect 1kw heater with no losses would need 110 minutes to 
complete the task. Double the water content would add another 43 
minutes.

Vacuum dryers will help as temperatures can be reduced and heat 
recovery can recycle some energy. However, boiling water is always 
energy intensive.

Regards

Dave

PS - Has anybody got a cheap centrifuge already set up to remove 
water from vege oil? :)


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[biofuel] Email duplication malfunction

[new_energy444]

Sorry, but I didn't intend to send my last email in twice and I don't believe I 
actually did. The send function was acting screwy. 


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[biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[new_energy444]

No one on this list, that I know of, has suggested supplies of hydrogen are 
locked to the supply of fossil fuels, but a surprising number of people are 
under that impression. Hydrogen from electrolysis is expensive now, but don't 
be so sure it will remain so. The Phoenix Project is just one example of how 
electrolysis-produced hydrogen could be made much cheaper. Worldwide several 
hundred billion dollars has been invested to develop cheap hydrogen, from 
electrolysis, within 10 years. Ask nanotech/biotech researchers about near term 
prospects for cheap hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources. For excellent 
reasons, unprecedented advances, are anticipated within ten years. Bob  
   --- In 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil fuels
do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as hydrogen
from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to energy 
conversion losses.
> 
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> 
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> we borrow it from our children.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
> 
> 
> > At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will run
> out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example of
> how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
>  --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > hydrogen?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > =
> > > Steve
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > __
> > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > 


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[biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[new_energy444]

No one on this list, that I know of, has suggested supplies of hydrogen are 
locked to the supply of fossil fuels, but a surprising number of people are 
under that impression. Hydrogen from electrolysis is expensive now, but don't 
be so sure it will remain so. The Phoenix Project is just one example of how 
electrolysis-produced hydrogen could be made much cheaper. Worldwide several 
hundred billion dollars has been invested to develop cheap hydrogen, from 
electrolysis, within 10 years. Ask nanotech/biotech researchers about near term 
prospects for cheap hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources. For excellent 
reasons, unprecedented advances, are anticipated within ten years. Bob  
   --- In 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil fuels
do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as hydrogen
from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to energy 
conversion losses.
> 
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
> 
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> we borrow it from our children.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question
> 
> 
> > At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will run
> out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example of
> how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
>  --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > > hydrogen?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > =
> > > Steve
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > __
> > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > 


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Re: [biofuel] Nuclear Terrorism, Nuclear Safety

[Appal Energy]

Sanity at its finest...!

Todd
Appal Energy

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11514
AlterNet --
Nuclear Terrorism, Nuclear Safety
Harvey Wasserman, AlterNet
September 17, 2001

Though few are now talking about it, atomic power is high on the list 
of realities forever transformed by the terrorist nightmare of 
September 11.

[snip]


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[Appal Energy]

Bob,

I don't quite see how you can lay the all encompassing claim that "at best
biofuels [will be] an interim energy source."

How long do you believe this interim to be?

By sound reckoning, it would take a century or better for all societies to
achieve economic parity to the degree that they can afford state of the art
technology such as hydrogen at all end use levels.

Even then, assuming fossil fuels have been depleted to the point of
inefficient mining economics, what fuel source will be used to manufacture
hydrogen, much less the hardware required for processing, storage, etc?

At present, it's almost impossible to determine that biofuels or renewables
will become obsolete at the end of some indeterminate interim.

Todd
Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question


> At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will run
out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example of
how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
 --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > hydrogen?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> > =
> > Steve
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > __
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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[biofuel] How do you convert a fuel injected vehicle?

[Fischmann]

"Unfortunately, all of my vehicles are fuel injected.Ê If they weren't
I'd beÊ drilling out carburetor jets for ethanol. Ê As it is I'm trying
to figure out how to remap their fuel injection systems to deal with
ethanol. Ê I know it's more expensive than gasoline for urban dwellers
like me, but I don't care. Ê I see eliminating my personal dependence on
gasoline as striking a blow, if a small one, at the terrorists source of
funding."

   When you figure out how to do this, let us know. I have the same 
problem. The one vehicle I still have which uses a carb is an International 
Scout four wheel drive that gets about 8 miles to the gallon, (that's the 
reason it sits in the backyard 99 percent of the time). 
   Although my daily ride is a Ford Van, I do have an old Geo Metro that 
I retired last year. Maybe the best thing I can do right now is pull it up in 
the shop, get it running good again, (when I was driving it, I was getting 50 
plus miles to the gallon). Cutting our dependence on Middle East oil is by 
far the best bet, and if we can't be totally free of fossil fuel, we can sure 
kick them in the gonads by using less. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Re: To all in the US.

[Pedro M.]

Elabore caseramente biodiesel para su actual motor de gasoil petrol’fero
La soluci—n a sus problemas energŽticos.

http://sitio.de/energia
http://journeytoforever.org/energiaweb/

- Original Message - 
From: "Alan S. Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "biofuel" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:23 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: To all in the US.


> robert luis rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  
> [snip]
> 
> Hear hear!  
> 
> We are now involved in an unconventional war.  Not just we Americans,
> but everyone.  Unconventional wars must be fought by unconventional
> means.  One of the best ways we can fight these terrorists is by
> removing their ability to fund their campaigns.  In part that means
> reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil.  
> 
You are right . The oil barill was more expensive just after the attack. ( do 
we have B100 barrill international  prices like for the petrol barrills ??? it 
would be interesting ).

I don«t know if relationed with the last, but Bin Laden Invested in companies 
in Stock Exchange.

And we must know that the power of Bin Laden it«s not "religious", he has a lot 
of money in unknown places, that make possible the terrorist attack.

In short, use biofuels instead of petrofuels.


> Unfortunately, all of my vehicles are fuel injected.  If they weren't
> I'd be  drilling out carburettor jets for ethanol.  As it is I'm trying
> to figure out how to remap their fuel injection systems to deal with
> ethanol.  I know it's more expensive than gasoline for urban dwellers
> like me, but I don't care.  I see eliminating my personal dependence on
> gasoline as striking a blow, if a small one, at the terrorists source of
> funding.  
> 
I suggest create a standard ( ISO standard or similar national standards ) for 
ethanol motors, including for Flexible Fuel Vehicles. 

> Perhaps I'll buy a diesel vehicle

Yes, diesel it«s cleaner and you can use it in nowadays petrodiesel motors.

Regards.


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[biofuel] Nuclear Terrorism, Nuclear Safety

[Keith Addison]

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11514
AlterNet --
Nuclear Terrorism, Nuclear Safety
Harvey Wasserman, AlterNet
September 17, 2001

Though few are now talking about it, atomic power is high on the list 
of realities forever transformed by the terrorist nightmare of 
September 11.

Despite saturation media coverage, both the Bush administration and 
mainstream commentators have been ominously silent about the most 
obvious terrorist target of all: our 103 licensed commercial nuclear 
plants.

The four jetliners hijacked September 11 flew perilously close to at 
least a dozen operating reactors, from Pilgrim, Millstone and Indian 
Point, between Boston and New York, to Surry, North Anna and Calvert 
Cliffs near Washington, to Peach Bottom, Limerick and Three Mile 
Island in Pennsylvania.

Though the industry has claimed the containment domes on such plants 
might withstand a jet crash, no credible engineer would agree. In 
fact, it's inconceivable any of them could survive a direct hit 
followed by a long jet-fueled fire such as the ones that destroyed 
the World Trade Center.

And had the terrorists chosen to target one of those reactors instead 
of the World Trade Center or the Pentagon, we would be talking about 
tens of thousands of dead, hundreds of thousands -- if not millions 
-- of long-term cancers, and hundreds of billions of dollars in 
property damage.

In short, a holocaust from which this nation might never recover.

Such fearful realities have been integral to the debate over nuclear 
power since its inception. Early reactor opponents argued as early as 
the 1960s that reactors in populated areas might be terrorist 
targets. In the 1970s an airline hijacker talked about crashing into 
a nuclear facility. In the 1980s the Ayatollah Khomeini threatened to 
hit "nuclear targets" inside the U.S. In the early 1990s followers of 
Osama Bin Laden are believed to have trained within a hundred miles 
of Three Mile Island.

In recent years, ground-level security at U.S. reactor sites has 
become notoriously lax. Journalists and anti-nuke activists have 
easily penetrated the environs of operating nukes. In many cases, a 
simple bomb or someone wrecking random havoc inside a hijacked 
control room could do Chernobyl-scale damage.

But now the prospect of an attack from the air has taken things to a 
new level. Even in the unlikely event a containment dome could 
withstand a hit from a jetliner, the ensuing fire would almost 
certainly lead to a meltdown or explosion. Nor would it be necessary 
to hit the dome at all. Pools holding thousands of tons of high-level 
fuel rods sit at most reactors sites with no containment whatsoever. 
Merely disrupting their cooling systems could cause a melt-down, as 
might an assault on turbine housings, emergency power generators, 
communications systems and many other parts of the immensely complex 
and fragile infrastructure that keeps nuclear plants from turning 
rogue.

At least one type of newly proposed reactor -- the pebble bed design 
-- is being offered with no containment at all. Small wonder those 
proposing to build new atomic plants want Congress to approve an 
extension of federal liability insurance, insulating them from the 
consequences of a catastrophic accident. In other words, because no 
private insurer will take them on, the industry wants taxpayer 
protection against paying for a disaster, one we now see could 
all-too-easily come from terrorism even on a far less demanding scale 
than what happened September 11.

And what would be the real consequences of such a disaster? Most 
American reactors sit in areas that were once isolated, but which 
have now been surrounded by suburban sprawl. Evacuation planning is 
threadbare and essentially unworkable. Most mass escape schemes are 
built around the expected lead-time offered by a mechanical failure, 
a luxury no terrorist attack would provide.

Chernobyl Unit Four, which spewed an apocalyptic radioactive cloud 
over much of Europe and into the jetstream (the fallout was detected 
across the northern U.S. within 10 days), had been operating only for 
four years. Its internal radioactive inventory was thus comparatively 
small.

Most U.S. reactors have operated far longer, and have accumulated far 
more deadly radiation, both inside their containments and in the 
nearby spent fuel pools. An explosion in any one of them would almost 
certainly throw far greater quantities of lethal radiation downwind 
and into the planet's atmosphere.

At Chernobyl, the death toll has been impossible to calculate, but 
may ultimately stretch into the millions due to the long-term effects 
of cancer, malformations and stillbirths. Hundreds of square miles 
remain permanently uninhabitable. The financial cost estimates run in 
the range of $500 billion, and growing.

But in the U.S., surrounding population levels are far higher, and 
property values are in another range of magnitude. In short, it is 
virtually 

[biofuel] Alternative Energy

[Pedro M.]

Biofuels are  secure alternative energy to nuclear. 

The nuclear centers are unprotected against terrorist attacks.
Tuesday, september the  18th. 2001 

 EFE Press Agency.

The old construction nuclear centers are not ready to resist terrorist attacks 
with commercial planes of big capacity full of querosene like the used agains 
the NY Twin Towers and the Pentagon, said a Spokesperson of the International 
Organization of Atomic Energy.

 
An eventual reforcement with  steel  and concrete of the installations to 
prevent the  escape of radioactivity would be " very expensive and it wouldn«t 
guarantee a total security ", indicated the Spokesperson of the Organization, 
David Kyd, which recognized that 40 years along nobody thought that there would 
be terrorist acts against atomic plants ( note of the sender : INCREDIBLE  
! ).


"The concrete wouldn«t resist, the fuel of the nuclear center would warm and 
would be vapor explossions  inside", said the expert. This was what happened in 
the accident in the Chernobyl soviet atomic central ( nowadays in Ucrany ) 
april 1986, that lounched a radiactivity cloud that affect the scandinavian 
peninsula pen’nsula and have effects in Center Europe and part of Western 
Europe 



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question

[steve spence]

I'm not sure where you heard that hydrogen would run out when fossil fuels
do. Cheap hydrogen will run out when fossil fuels get expensive, as hydrogen
from electrolysis is extremely expensive, comparatively speaking, due to
energy conversion losses.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm

Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Question


> At best biofuels are an interim energy source. The claim hydrogen will run
out when fossil fuels expire is pure nonsense. Here is just one example of
how hydrogen can replace oil. http://www.phoenixproject.net/
 --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > hydrogen?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> > =
> > Steve
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > __
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question

[steve spence]

why not batteries?
 or use the grid as your battery?

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children.

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew Layton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question


> In a thermodynamic sense: yes, a net loss.
> However, consider that the input solar energy is essentially free.  If
that
> energy is serving no other rational purpose (i.e., not being captured as
> some other usable form) then, I believe, it is better to store the energy
as
> gaseous hydrogen than not at all.
>
> I'm not even going to go into all the problems that gaseous hydrogen
> presents.  Yikes!
>
>
>
>
> it takes more energy to free the hydrogen than you get back. net loss.
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
> http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
>
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com
> Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax
> We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
> we borrow it from our children.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question
>
>
> > the electrolysis of water using solar cells should get you started just
be
> > extreamly careful
> >
> > Original Message
> > Subj:[biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> > Date:   9/14/2001 5:24:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve W)
> > Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Hello,
> >I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> > to make water and give off some electricity but
> > where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> > plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> > it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> > chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> > hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> > is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> > cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> > bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> > hydrogen?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> > =
> > Steve
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Ethanol from cellulose

[steve spence]

http://www.webconx.com/sawdust_ethanol.htm

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
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- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:01 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol from cellulose


> Don't suppose any rocket scientists here can point a soul to an in depth
site or two on ethanol from ligno-cellulosic material and destructive
distillation?
>
> Had an inquiry and an itch.
>
> Todd
> Appal Energy
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Ethanol from cellulose

[Keith Addison]

Hi Todd

Try the first one.

 From Ethanol resources on the Web: Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html

Ethanol from cellulose

"Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review", Environment Canada 1999 -- 
good overview of the problem and the current solutions on offer.
http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/wet/section16.html

Arkenol Inc. is a pioneer in processing cellulose biomas into 
ethanol: agricultural wastes, straw, leaves, grass clippings, sawdust 
or old newspapers. The company uses proprietary concentrated acid 
hydrolysis technology and is in the final development stages for a 48 
million litre per year biorefinery in Sacramento, California 
processing rice straw.
http://www.arkenol.com

The Iogen Corporation of Canada is "the leader in developing and 
manufacturing ethanol-from-cellulose". The Iogen process is an 
enzymatic hydrolysis process for converting lignocellulosics to 
ethanol -- uses steam explosion pretreatment pioneered by the company 
and Iogen's proprietary enzymes.
http://www.iogen.ca/fuels.htm

BC International Corporation uses a genetically modified organism to 
produce ethanol from biomass wastes such as agricultural residues, 
municipal waste, and forest thinnings. Two-stage dilute acid 
hydrolysis process for the preparation of the sugar streams and two 
separate fermentations although both use the same organism.
http://www.bcintlcorp.com/

"Ethanol Production in Hawaii", a "pre-feasibility" study who a focus 
on ethanol from cellulose. Includes comparison of the different 
processes: simultaneous saccharification and fermentation; 
concentrated acid hydrolysis, neutralization and fermentation; 
ammonia disruption, hydrolysis and fermentation; steam disruption, 
hydrolysis and fermentation; acid disruption and transgenic 
microorganism fermentation; concentrated acid hydrolysis, acid 
recycle and fermentation; and acidified acetone extraction, 
hydrolysis and fermentation.
http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/ethanol/ethano94.html
Good list of references:
http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/ethanol/refs.html

Genencore & DOE Move Closer to Fuel Ethanol from Biomass Cellulose - 
See: Biomass Conversion with Enzymes:
http://www.newuses.org/EG/EG-23/23genetic.html

Mustard Plants Produce Low-Cost Enzymes for Making Ethanol -- 
Researchers at the University of Colorado (CU) at Boulder have 
developed a potentially low- cost method of producing the cellulase 
enzyme for converting woody biomass materials into ethanol.
http://www.colorado.edu/PublicRelations/NewsReleases/2001/1244.html
New Research May Reduce Renewable Fuel Costs
http://ens-news.com/ens/may2001/2001L-05-24-09.html

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/



>Don't suppose any rocket scientists here can point a soul to an in 
>depth site or two on ethanol from ligno-cellulosic material and 
>destructive distillation?
>
>Had an inquiry and an itch.
>
>Todd
>Appal Energy
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[biofuel] Re: To all in the US.

[Alan S. Petrillo]

robert luis rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  
[snip]
> 
> I was in Baltimore, Maryland for a conference when the tragedy struck, and
> I just made it home this afternoon.  (It's Sunday.)  Aside from feeling
> unspeakable rage at what has been done to my country, I can't help but feel
> that if we weren't so addicted to oil, the radical, violent elements within
> Islam would simply not have the money to finance their terror.

Hear hear!  

We are now involved in an unconventional war.  Not just we Americans,
but everyone.  Unconventional wars must be fought by unconventional
means.  One of the best ways we can fight these terrorists is by
removing their ability to fund their campaigns.  In part that means
reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil.  

It's like going after organized crime.  When law enforcement people want
to get mafiosi they don't just go after the criminals themselves, but
they also go after their lawyers and their financiers.  That's the same
method we need to use now.  

Unfortunately, all of my vehicles are fuel injected.  If they weren't
I'd be  drilling out carburettor jets for ethanol.  As it is I'm trying
to figure out how to remap their fuel injection systems to deal with
ethanol.  I know it's more expensive than gasoline for urban dwellers
like me, but I don't care.  I see eliminating my personal dependence on
gasoline as striking a blow, if a small one, at the terrorists source of
funding.  

Perhaps I'll buy a diesel vehicle, pull the pieces of my biodiesel
processing stuff out of the closet, and start making biodiesel again.  

> Thank you to all the other citizens of the world who have expressed their
> condolences and grieve with us.  Your sympathy and solidarity helps us cope.

Yes indeed, thank you all.  

I must admit some outrage at the behavior or some of my fellow
Americans, though.  

The problem is that I look like an Arab.  

I am not an Arab.  I am not of Arab dissent.  I am half Italian, and the
other half is English, Irish, and Lumbee.  But I look like an Arab.  

In the past week I have been flipped off, cursed at, threatened, almost
run off the road, and had one of my vehicles vandalized because I _look_
like an Arab.  

And I have to call these people fellow Americans!  ARGH!!


Alan
-- 
He who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind.   
Remember the Towers.

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[biofuel] Ethanol from cellulose

[Appal Energy]

Don't suppose any rocket scientists here can point a soul to an in depth site 
or two on ethanol from ligno-cellulosic material and destructive distillation?

Had an inquiry and an itch.

Todd
Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[biofuel] HempCar hits 10,000 miles

[Appal Energy]

September 17, 2001

HempCar, the world's first transcontinental journey fueled by biodiesel derived 
solely from industrial hemp seed oil (cannabis sativa l.), reached the 10,000 
mile mark in Roswell, New Mexico, this Saturday past.

True to form, no sooner had HempCar passed through Roswell than an alternator 
bearing began to scream, sidelining the journey for two days in a tumbleweed 
ridden, dust speck of a town in west Texas.

HempCar left Washington, DC on July 4th and is scheduled to end its journey in 
Washington, DC, on October 1st, having traveled nearly 12,000 on hemp biodiesel.

Todd
Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question

[Andrew Layton]

In a thermodynamic sense: yes, a net loss.
However, consider that the input solar energy is essentially free.  If that
energy is serving no other rational purpose (i.e., not being captured as
some other usable form) then, I believe, it is better to store the energy as
gaseous hydrogen than not at all.

I'm not even going to go into all the problems that gaseous hydrogen
presents.  Yikes!




it takes more energy to free the hydrogen than you get back. net loss.

Steve Spence
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- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question


> the electrolysis of water using solar cells should get you started just be
> extreamly careful
>
> Original Message
> Subj:[biofuel] Hydrogen Question
> Date:   9/14/2001 5:24:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve W)
> Reply-to:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>
> Hello,
>I am aware that hydrogen combines with oxygen
> to make water and give off some electricity but
> where does all this hydrogen come from that we
> plan to use?  I know there is alot out there but
> it is mostly bound up in water or some other
> chemical isn't it?  It takes energy to free this
> hydrogen.  How much energy does it take and where
> is this energy going to come from?  Will fuel
> cells really save any greenhouse gases or will a
> bunch of coal need to be burned to free up the
> hydrogen?
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
> =
> Steve
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Question

[Andrew Layton]

Hi All.
I remember doing hydrolysis in 9th grade - Mr.  Fallon's class, 3rd period.
I don't remember the "cracking" rig, but I remember using a small amount of
sulfuric acid (H2 SO4) as a catalyst.


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