[biofuels-biz] Senator Feinstein's (D, Cal) Arguments Against U.S. Ethanol Mandate
http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-ethanol03.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] MOE Embarks on Fuel Cell Project Powered by Food Waste
To Over-Simplify: Now THAT's what I'm talking about! MM On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:03:03 +0900, you wrote: http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=314UserNum=Pass=AdminPass=dp=data_e.html MOE Embarks on Fuel Cell Project Powered by Food Waste Date : 20030511 Japan's Ministry of the Environment has decided to launch a project that uses food waste to power a fuel cell power plant. It will be based on the outcome of a three-year trial project the ministry conducted in Kobe, Hyogo Prefecture, and is aimed at promoting the effective use of fuel cells in the future. The power plant generates electricity from hydrogen isolated from the biogas converted from biomass resources through technologies such as methanol fermentation. Since the system enables the generation of electrical and heat energy without burning fossil fuels, this approach is expected to play a vital role in combating global warming. Presently, 90 percent of food waste in Kobe is incinerated and sent to landfills. By effective use of this system, the city can reduce the environmental burden of wastes, generate energy from what was otherwise simply disposed of, and also reduce toxic dioxin emissions. Since the collection and sorting of food waste requires substantial cost, power plants will be introduced where then can be attached to municipal garbage treatment facilities, , as well as sites where waste disposal occurs and the consumption of energy is possible within the same property. Facilities such as hotels, hospitals, apartments and convenience stores are candidates for such on-site facilities. The total annual supply of these biomass resources in Japan is about 210 million tonnes, of which about half is from sources within the country, and half (110 million tonnes) are imported. The total supply is equivalent to more than 20 percent of the 470 million tonnes of fossil fuels Japan imports annually. A part of the biomass is consumed as an energy source for humans and livestock, but the rest ends up as waste, contaminating water resources if not incinerated. The underlying idea of this project is that returning the domestic supply of biomass to croplands and the air within Japan would be compatible with the principle natural circulation, but as much as possible, the imported portion should be used up as energy, for it would otherwise result in eutrophication. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: biocides
Butylated hydroxyanisol and butylated hydroxytoluene, I think. Great stuff in kid's food, don't you think? Tom Leue In a message dated 6/22/03 10:58:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, what does BHA an BHT stand for? Andreas Ohnsorge Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê TilapiaÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê @AOL.comÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ To:Ê Ê Ê [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ cc:Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê 22.06.2003 17:50Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: biocidesÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Please respondÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê to biofuels-bizÊ Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Unlike standard petroleum fuels, the most effective biocides for biodiesel are antioxidants.ÊÊ This includes BHA, BHT and Citric Acid. These compounds will effectively delay oxidation, rancidity and degradation of the fuel by factors of 10x to 30x what unprotected oil may experience. You should know that the degradation occurs in the presence of water, either at the bottom, or in micro-suspension. So the best protection is to keep your fuel dry! However, in someone's tank, this is not always easy to control, so a fuel protector is sometimes useful. A combination of these chemicals are even more effective than any one alone. A custom mixture can be purchased from vendors, such as Kodak.ÊÊ Go to a Yahoo search to find other vendors.ÊÊ I know we don't want these chemicals in our breakfast cereal, but they work wonderfully well in stabilizing biodiesel or vegetable oil. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] hi, there
Hi, Is anybody working in biodiesel/Ethanol diesel combustion and emission modeling? Thanks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: biocides
I hold a commercial pesticide license and attended a conference on wood treatment the other day hosted by Maryland EPA in response to Fed EPA new requirements that will be imposed soon for control of treated wood. As you may know the wood treatment that involves a couple toxic compounds including arsenic, in use for over 70 years, is being dumped for an entirely new system come the end of this year, despite that arsenic treated wood has been used without problems all this time. (Another case of lawyers pushing the system)One of the principal problems with this new system will be the control of mold, which requires the selection of one or more effective, economical biocides. The use of biocides, for control of mold, will be a principal cost of the new treatment which is expected to raise the cost of wood treatment at least 20%. Current development, as explained at this conference, is proceeding on developing and selecting an effective biocide, as is the specification for biocide amount that will be required in order to control mold. This is presently all up in the air, or so the person hosting the conference thought. It might be well to keep an eye out for what develops there, to see if what they come up with could also be effective for treating biodiesel to control bacteria. Glenn Ellis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] biogas storage
Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two, can be accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more. Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure differences. Bob ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa. How do you extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a rural environment in a cost effective manner? Regards..EONG -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel snip As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this list? ), Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a usable form for farming, ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's rich in N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily either one or the other. and BioGas would be available for use as well. Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there reformed into Methanol which could power your car. And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which more later. Best Keith Greg H. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] biogas storage
Hi Robert and all, Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet, Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute for rubber bladders or drums? Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. The beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb up the technology ladder to be savvy like you and me in using modern applicators. Regards···.EONG _ -Original Message- From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 11:48 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [biofuel] Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two, can be accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more. Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure differences. Bob ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa. How do you extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a rural environment in a cost effective manner? Regards..EONG -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel snip As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this list? ), Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a usable form for farming, ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's rich in N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily either one or the other. and BioGas would be available for use as well. Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there reformed into Methanol which could power your car. And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which more later. Best Keith Greg H. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click Here! http://rd.yahoo.com/M=$4522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D==egroupweb/S=050832 69:HM/A=95053/R==0/SIG=4orar12/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogy o?YH=313099yhad=95053 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . _ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=07/*http://promo.yahoo.com/s bc/ - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery again/detroit 671
- Keith, I must've been drinking too much of my methanol to get in to the archives correctly. I appreciate your commitment to the mass of information here. Feel like a big fat FNG. thanks again. bowlcole-- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Gustl Happy Happy, As ever! Well, almost... Hallo Keith, Saturday, 07 June, 2003, 08:35:54, you wrote: KA bowlcole wrote: Still havent' heard from anyone about methanol recovery. KA Huh? You had four responses, including one from me, plus a couple KA more questions. Not much use asking if you don't bother to check for KA answers, is it? There's also been other discussion since then on KA methanol recovery, and a lot more before then, all of which is in the KA archives. Not always a person's fault brother. I have seen replies to which I have never seen a question. Yahoogroups screw up perhaps. Perhaps, but then I don't think he'd be able to post. Actually on our two groups I've never seen Yahoo not deliver a message - no, I'm NOT a fan of Yahoo (yahell). They do weird, dumb and horrible things, but the delivery system works well. You couldn't post, could you, with your recent problem with Biofuels-biz? (Fixed now, I hope?) On other lists I have seen posts which ask why the group is so quiet when the list has over 100 mails a day. Yes, baffling... and then there's the once-a week wonder of the person who sends his unsubscribe message direct to the list, in spite of all the notices. All groups have that, no good answer. Just one of those things. :o) Maybe... But what to do, just let it pass? - and have him and others too think that requests for information don't get answered here? Because they do. Or should all four of us repost our responses, only to have him miss them all over again? Rather give him a heads-up, no? And recommend the archives - it's an under-utilized, under-appreciated treasure-trove, nothing else like it, and I sometimes get the impression quite a few people don't realize it's there: 90 Mb, 25,000 messages over three years covering every aspect of biofuels, and Martin's archive is fast, with powerful searching tools, and NO ADS. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuels-biz Or maybe this'll help: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700list=BIOFUEL Regards Keith Happy Happy, Gustl Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WW2
Hi Just look in Yahoo. I'll try and find the link I used maybe 12 months ago. Mark Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Senator Feinstein's (D, Cal) Arguments Against U.S. Ethanol Mandate
http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-ethanol03.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] MOE Embarks on Fuel Cell Project Powered by Food Waste
To Over-Simplify: Now THAT's what I'm talking about! MM On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:03:03 +0900, you wrote: http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=314UserNum=Pass=AdminPass=dp=data_e.html MOE Embarks on Fuel Cell Project Powered by Food Waste Date : 20030511 Japan's Ministry of the Environment has decided to launch a project that uses food waste to power a fuel cell power plant. It will be based on the outcome of a three-year trial project the ministry conducted in Kobe, Hyogo Prefecture, and is aimed at promoting the effective use of fuel cells in the future. The power plant generates electricity from hydrogen isolated from the biogas converted from biomass resources through technologies such as methanol fermentation. Since the system enables the generation of electrical and heat energy without burning fossil fuels, this approach is expected to play a vital role in combating global warming. Presently, 90 percent of food waste in Kobe is incinerated and sent to landfills. By effective use of this system, the city can reduce the environmental burden of wastes, generate energy from what was otherwise simply disposed of, and also reduce toxic dioxin emissions. Since the collection and sorting of food waste requires substantial cost, power plants will be introduced where then can be attached to municipal garbage treatment facilities, , as well as sites where waste disposal occurs and the consumption of energy is possible within the same property. Facilities such as hotels, hospitals, apartments and convenience stores are candidates for such on-site facilities. The total annual supply of these biomass resources in Japan is about 210 million tonnes, of which about half is from sources within the country, and half (110 million tonnes) are imported. The total supply is equivalent to more than 20 percent of the 470 million tonnes of fossil fuels Japan imports annually. A part of the biomass is consumed as an energy source for humans and livestock, but the rest ends up as waste, contaminating water resources if not incinerated. The underlying idea of this project is that returning the domestic supply of biomass to croplands and the air within Japan would be compatible with the principle natural circulation, but as much as possible, the imported portion should be used up as energy, for it would otherwise result in eutrophication. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Biogas technologies
Hi Eong Sorry I've been a bit quiet on this topic, though not neglectful - I've been discussing it with a few folks and we should have some interesting input in the next week or so. Hi, Reading the discussion generated, much are centred on the chemistry, design and packaging side of the issue raised. See an Australian design for illustration ( now not done because Yahoo cannot accept large file ). Yahoo will accept any size of email message, but this list (and many others) is set to reject attachments, and anything other than plain text, as a highly necessary anti-virus measure. If you send me the file direct I can either put it on our website at Journey to Forever or in the Files section at the group website (less useful). See Files section, folder: AustralianCompostToilet http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/files/AustralianCompostToilet/ Three jpg's: CompostToilet1.jpg CompostToilet2.jpg CompostToilet3.jpg Best Keith snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] biogas storage
Hi Robert and all, Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet, Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute for rubber bladders or drums? Have you seen this page at our site? http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger Especially this bit: Eight questions that will tell if a community will truly benefit from a development project: 1. What are the most pressing needs of this community? 2. Is the proposed project addressing these needs? 3. Is there participation by the community in the process of: - Identifying key problems? - Planning realistic solutions? - Carrying out the plans? - Measuring the success of the project? 4. Is the project financially and logistically feasible? 5. Will the community permanently benefit from the project? 6. Will the beneficiaries achieve empowerment in terms of: - Economic independence? - Control of resources and decisions? - Self-confidence that they can make a difference? 7. Will the project have a positive impact on the environment? 8. Will the project have a positive impact on the role and participation of women? Take #3 - are these people able to solve this problem themselves? Has anybody asked them? Don't you think they might have ways of making things waterproof - which is not that far from airtight, for these purposes? We left our traditional Hakka hats behind in Hong Kong when we came here to Japan, and we much regret it: sort of excellent head-umbrellas, leaving both hands free, after a thousand years or so of fiddling with the design they're perfect, beyond improvement. Woven from thin strips of bamboo bark over paper and varnished - or more likely treated with tung oil than varnish, and there's bound to be a local equivalent for tung oil. No leaks. You could make any shape of container like this - not structurally strong enough for liquids, but might be fine for gases, with a bit oif adaptation, depending on the pressure. Okay, it won't stretch, but oiled animal skins might, to an extent - but does it have to stretch? This is just off the top of my head, but I get the idea you also feel there ought to be some such solution. Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. I think you're doing rather well! The beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb up the technology ladder to be savvy like you and me in using modern applicators. You're focusing on the right aspect, IMO, Eong - what's possible isn't as important as what people will do and what they won't do, no matter how dumb their reasons may seem (maybe they are dumb reasons, or maybe they turn out to be not dumb at all when you see a few more pieces of the puzzle that you didn't perceive before). As a general principle, I believe it's very important that they not be encouraged to abandon their tribal customs in favour of modern ways, or maybe even actively discouraged from doing so: new technology (that is, new to them) ought to be fitted in to the context of the traditional ways without causing disruption, otherwise progress fails to deliver its promise, or worse. Best wishes Keith Regards···.EONG _ -Original Message- From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 11:48 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [biofuel] Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two, can be accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more. Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure differences. Bob ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas is generated and
RE: [biofuel] biogas storage
You can use bamboo fiber cement as cover to give support togother with the natural animal hide, for the biogas storage using the same techniques of making inforced ferous cement , which involve well known tecnology .Yet few inovative work is known in this field, that well estabilized, as all may have the problem of leakage of gas.Here in brasil , cheaper man made fiberglass cover are working in rural areas. ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi Robert and all, Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet, Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute for rubber bladders or drums? Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. The beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb up the technology ladder to be savvy like you and me in using modern applicators. Regards···.EONG _ -Original Message- From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 11:48 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [biofuel] Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two, can be accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more. Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure differences. Bob ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa. How do you extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a rural environment in a cost effective manner? Regards..EONG -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel snip As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this list? ), Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a usable form for farming, ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's rich in N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily either one or the other. and BioGas would be available for use as well. Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there reformed into Methanol which could power your car. And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which more later. Best Keith Greg H. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click Here! http://rd.yahoo.com/M=$4522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D==egroupweb/S=050832 69:HM/A=95053/R==0/SIG=4orar12/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogy o?YH=313099yhad=95053 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives:
RE: [biofuel] biogas storage
Hi Folks, The direction of all my questions is driving towards the heading of Appropriate Technology, in this instance it is for the remote highlanders who are too poor for any industrialised goods, and perhaps not that sophisticated to handle what we have except for the TV and the booze to sooth away the rough edges in surviving out there. I am hoping to tap the brain waves which I can feel the transmission whilst reading the toing and froing of the messages. Keith, you are right, we need those techniques that you just alluded in http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html. The practitioners ( expatriate community and Singaporeans alike ) now call it CHE, acronym for Community, Health and Education Development. At the same time, Foreign Direct Investment ( FDI ) opens many local eyes of the transformation this economic development has done to the industrialised estates and the key cities in Asia. Especially the Asian Dragons. Many poor are clamouring FDI to get them out of the hole. I feel we need to have MED ( Micro Enterprise Development ) as the tool to first initiate them in Income Generating Activities ( IGA ) and later in small businesses with the prospect of scaling up as demands drive the business volume. With that, FDI will come in for the range of the luxuries which the West is accustomed to. For me it is a personal experience seen first hand. In 1963, from Singapore, we were sending back to Fujian, an Eastern China Province, cooking oil and bicycles to our kins who begged us to help. Today, the savvy Chinese are listing their companies in Singapore, coming in droves as tourists and same even can afford to compete with us to buy the better properties and vehicles in town. All these happened in less than 40 years! Back to basic. We have CHE, MED and now Appropriate Technology. Keith mentioned obliquely how lacquered bamboo strip on the conical hat maybe able to keep the gas under a specific PSI as a holding tank. That is utilising local resource, bamboo. What else relating to SAR as raw sewerage of human beings and animals are involved? Regards.EONG -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 20:34 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] biogas storage Hi Robert and all, Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet, Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute for rubber bladders or drums? Have you seen this page at our site? http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger Especially this bit: Eight questions that will tell if a community will truly benefit from a development project: 1. What are the most pressing needs of this community? 2. Is the proposed project addressing these needs? 3. Is there participation by the community in the process of: - Identifying key problems? - Planning realistic solutions? - Carrying out the plans? - Measuring the success of the project? 4. Is the project financially and logistically feasible? 5. Will the community permanently benefit from the project? 6. Will the beneficiaries achieve empowerment in terms of: - Economic independence? - Control of resources and decisions? - Self-confidence that they can make a difference? 7. Will the project have a positive impact on the environment? 8. Will the project have a positive impact on the role and participation of women? Take #3 - are these people able to solve this problem themselves? Has anybody asked them? Don't you think they might have ways of making things waterproof - which is not that far from airtight, for these purposes? We left our traditional Hakka hats behind in Hong Kong when we came here to Japan, and we much regret it: sort of excellent head-umbrellas, leaving both hands free, after a thousand years or so of fiddling with the design they're perfect, beyond improvement. Woven from thin strips of bamboo bark over paper and varnished - or more likely treated with tung oil than varnish, and there's bound to be a local equivalent for tung oil. No leaks. You could make any shape of container like this - not structurally strong enough for liquids, but might be fine for gases, with a bit oif adaptation, depending on the pressure. Okay, it won't stretch, but oiled animal skins might, to an extent - but does it have to stretch? This is just off the top of my head, but I get the idea you also feel there ought to be some such solution. Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. I think you're doing rather well! The beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb
Re: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery QDP pumps
Methanol recovery: Best solution I have found is to use a BOC Edwards 80m3/hr 50mbar vacuum pump for flash evaporation at 55'C. At this pressure, methanol boils at 10'C. The process stream is at 55'C so therefore the combined thermal and barometric condition ensures all of the methanol flash evaporates very fast. The QDP series are used in the semiconductor industry and operate without oil lubrication. If you use say a 1 or 2 stage EM series pump even with a molecular sieve before the vacuum stage, the oil will saturate with methanol very fast. So in all honesty, dont bother with one of these. Go for either a DryStar or QDP series pump BUT have a deep pocket. Regards Mark Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618
OK so how does a person become a beta tester for one of these? David HempCycle Webmaster wrote: I don't know the status of the army bike, but eCycle is in the process of recruiting beta testers and raising the money to build a test run of 100 bikes. I'll be one of the beta testers, and I'll be using hempseed oil provided by Don Wirtshafter and processed into biodiesel by Todd Swearingen. Will Dwyer -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:11 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 We have talked about this one before. And the all diesel motorcycle that the US army is putting through trials. Greg H. More details here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html Diesel motorbikes What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to have been testing for a long time. Same goes for the eCycle, still not in production AFAIK. Keith - Original Message - From: Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 00:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 How about a 180 miles per gallon Diesel hybrid/electric motorcycle that goes 0 to 60 in 6 seconds and can do 80 miles per hour. Who ever said greeners can't have a good time? http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm From Mike Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
Ryan, Knowing safety issues in Europe and VW design principles, I doubt that the Lupo is a problem. If it would have been the VW Brazilian GOL, you might have a point. It is more to it. My suspicion is that the TDI Golf is a preferred model and with a relatively small diesel market in US, they will wait for ULSD. All European cars are now covering ULSD and biodiesel mixes, the Japanese also. Ethanol mixes also. If the Lupo is called the 3 liter car, the Golf TDI should be called the 4 liter car. 25% difference in consumption, but still extremely good. If the market for diesels develop like the European market, be sure that the Lupo will be there. Hakan At 08:32 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Ammonia
Ammonia is corrosive to ferrous metals, copper, aluminum, brass, and like materials. All materials used must be good quality steel. ufda. I think you meant to say non ferrous. Ammonia is routinely piped in iron. Kirk -Original Message- From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia NH 3, Anhydrous ammonia, refrigerant ammonia, It is all the same product with differing amounts of allowable water in the product. The word anhydrous means without water. It has a boiling point of -21 deg F at atmospheric pressure. The most common usage today for ammonia as a refrigerant is the milk industry. It is further used by industries like Campbells Soups, and the like. Ammonia has an affinity for water and when possible, it will quickly go to and join with water but when it does, large amounts of heat are released in the process. This is the basic principal in the use of a system called absorption refrigeration when the refrigerant is ammonia. The most common type of system for most people to understand today is the gas refrigerator in the RV. Ammonia is corrosive to ferrous metals, copper, aluminum, brass, and like materials. All materials used must be good quality steel. My previous question which so far has not been answered is How is it made? It is made at the local OIL refinery as a byproduct of the production of gasoline, propane, and like hydrocarbon products. It's primary large scale usage today is agricultural, added to water while irrigating for the nitrogen in the growing of crops. Do we still want to use this product as an alternative energy ? Bob - Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Bio Methane (was: Ammonia as Fuel)
Hello Robert Pieter Koole wrote: Hoi Greg, That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or buy it, or is it industrial equipment ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands At the risk of butting into someone else's conversation, I have a few links you might try if you're interested in anaerobic methanogenesis: http://www.methane-gas.com This is Al Rutan's web page. He's pretty knowledgeable about this particular subject. Here's a link to an article he wrote for Home Power magazine a while ago: http://www.homepower.com/files/methane.pdf?search=biogas Ye-es, but don't believe him when he talks about organic fertilizers. I questioned him about it, not saying he was wrong, asking his opinion - I told him what my doubts were based on, gave him references to some very authoritative (and interesting!) info, and genuinely wanted to hear his point of view, but he got defensive, refused to read the refs, blew up at me and told me I had keyhole vision. :-/ Funny sort of thing to be married to, a biogas digester. Now I don't have doubts about it anymore, I'm certain of it, and I can back it up. http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html I don't know who this person is, but he seems to advocate a two step approach to methanogenesis. Steve Spence used to maintain a biogas reference library at webconx.com, but the link is dead right now. webconx.com is dead and gone. I only see his posts over at sci.energy.hydrogen--perhaps he found the anti war discussion in this forum too aggressive for his liking. Robert, I think this is a strange attribution of aggression - Steve repeatedly treated anything that disagreed with him with contemptuous dismissal, and all he'd back it up with was his say-so. What he was rather aggressively demanding was our unquestioning acceptance of the extremely aggressive (and illegal) invasion of a sovereign state, for spurious reasons, and with a casualty count that now exceeds 10,000, and still counting, no trivial matter. And NOT off-topic. Certainly he didn't like it, but neither did we, and we were a lot fairer than he was. But if he feels unwelcome here on that account he's mistaken, and he should know that. But his posting everywhere has been sporadic - last I heard he'd been away, and got bounced by Yahoo. Anyway, I'll be posting a fairly comprehensive list of biogas resources soon, annotated and organized. Here is a link to his current biogas page: http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/methane.htm You can find a whole library of information there. http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html This is an article about an Englishman who runs his vehicle and heats his home with biogas from chicken manure. There's not a lot of technical info there, but it's interesting. . . There is more information in some of the links at the end. I just mentioned it in another post. Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Biogas technologies
Hi Robert Keith Addison wrote: What I just said in another thread about composting biogas sludge applies here - the two techniques fit well together in quite a lot of ways, and thermophilic composting is a reliable cut-off of pathogens. This brings up a question that I have: I'm not sure if you're referring to the liquid slurry displaced whenever new material is added to the system, or if you're writing about the solids that fall to the bottom of the digester tank. If you're referring to the slurry left over from biogas, suggesting THIS can be composted, what should be done with all of the excess water? (We're contemplating ANOTHER move, and in this case an acreage and horses would be involved. I'd like to try my hand at biogas.) Wouldn't so much water wreck the composting environment, unless a considerable amount of dry material was added to the slurry? Aerobic composting probably won't take more than max 70% water content, preferably less. I was referring to the solids, often referred to as a good organic fertilizer because of its relatively high NPK content, but that's not the whole story. This too is usually too wet and needs addition of dry browns (carbonaceous material - straw, sawdust etc). Liquid slurry would require large amounts of dry stuff, probably too much for most situations. There are several other options - water hyacinth and duckweed are highly effective, for instance, which lets in a whole bunch of further options. See: http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#pondweeds http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#waterhyacinth http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#duckweed Thus your sludge/slurry disposal problem can become an added production system, or two or three, of protein, and of extra biomass for the digester, for the compost, or for livestock feed (and hence further manure for the digester and/or compost), or for all three. Some of these things I know a lot about, with years of hands-on experience, but I've had only glancing experience of others. We'll be exploring a lot of this further in the next few months. Best Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Biogas technologies
Hello Pannirselvam Hello Eong and Keith addision Thank you for your keen interest about the more discussion of biogas here in yahoo biofuel group , which our small research group in Brasil also believes too have good green future , in addition to bio oil and bidiesel of real energy economy where as H2 will be the virtual one using this real energy carrier .The simple bioreactor can also recover energy from waste of urban , agricultural and animal of alltypes , including the glycerine and ester , if properly designed. We're working on integrating biogas digestion and composting (hot compost, aerobic, thermophyllic) along with biofuels production - I think they all fit together very well, and can be adapted to fit almost anywhere, with or without the biofuels production bit, as required. Our group is designing biodigester horizontal rectangular tanque WITH locally made bricks or sand ciment blocks, covered rectangular plasic sheet suported by plastic nets all housed under rectangular wooden box, all to making use of local materials and manpower. Do you have any photographs, or drawings? What are the capacities, production, etc? The gas generated can be compreesed and put in gas cylinder of cooking gas, all are available in all the place of Brasil. How do you compress it? Small-scale compression seems to be an obstacle - if it could easily be overcome then we could include methane as a mobile fuel as well as a static energy source. As here, for instance - Robert referred to this link: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html Put a chicken in your tank This is from one of the stories about Harold Bate: Bate has fitted his digester tank with a safety valve set for 60 p.s.i. just in case. Pressures in the extractor seldom reach a third that level, however, because Harold considers a digester internal pressure of 20 p.s.i. to be the signal to start up a high-pressure compressor (of the type used for filling aqualung diving bottles) and pump the collected gas from the extractor into an ordinary high-pressure bottle. A filter between the digester and pressure bottle extracts the small quantities of phosphoric acid and ammonia that are present and the remaining almost-pure methane liquefies at a pressure of 1110 p.s.i. Bate finds that it takes about one-half hour of steady pumping to fill a 32-pound (4.5 Imperial gallon) bottle to its capacity of liquid methane. This figures out to approximately 200 cubic feet of dry gas... or a fuel equivalent of seven gallons of good petrol (about eight and three-quarter gallon of high-test gasoline, to readers in the US)... Is this feasible locally, or something like it? The solid resdiues are fermented aerobically after milling using seleted strain of fungus to accelerate composting using little urea, then the composted materials are solubilzed using bacterias grown with the solution of the out put of the biodigesters. THIS TWO STAGE BIOLOGICAL PRETREATMENTS CAN BE EASILY IMPLEMENTED TO MAKE FUEL FROM BIODEGRABLE SOLID RESIDUES , AGRICULTURAL, URBAN AND ANIMAL WASTES. Sorry, I don't understand this - solid residues? You mean the manure etc? What is the purpose of the pretreatment? Is it really necessary - why not just put it straight into the digester? The compressed biogas can easily suppliment with biodisel and bioiol made from bimass in rural areas.This can be aapropriate ecological solution under developing stage by our small research groups. Technical colaborations are welcome to make our research sucess. Our project has finished the design stage, will be soon implemented and operated both de biogas and together with biooil project of lower cost for small scale power generations.In addition we wish to make biodeisel from bio oil from wood. Thanks again our group leader,to make our group one of the best working group of biofuel, who really move the discussion in correct directions for real world problems. Thankyou! But you're too generous, I'm not a leader, just the doorman really. :-) I also feel that this group is doing a lot to make deveoped countries technical experiences to developing one to make great green future for biofuel and all our group members to That's a very important goal for me, I really hope it's true. Best wishes Keith sd Pannirselvam Two reactor in batch operations need tecnical skill, when one is not operating , other need to be cleaned and charged with raw materials, T Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Eong and Pannirselvam Could you provide a description of the technologies you're using? I'd welcome more discussion of biogas issues and technologies - we do have it, but not enough, IMO. Very much on-topic here. Recent discussion on the composition of natural gas (LPG) and other sources of methane came close. We've discussed these
Re: [biofuel] Deciding on Fuel(s) of the Future
Hi MM Some thoughts on the ammonia and other threads: The chemistry at present is a bit beyond me, although I hope some day it is not. Agree! (heartfelt...) One of the things that has held me back in getting somewhat better first-hand experience of this list's discussions is the lack of a house of my own (where one can have the space to work a bit, or to have a car or two to work on) and I'm working on solving that. Not that I think one need experience all of these matters, but it would be nice to have that option. But altough I am not a chemistry expert, I have some thoughts as to the tie-ins of political science, chemistry and sociology. Could we really say that we must standardize to one single solitary planet-wide method of storing and using whatever ambient energy we may harness or release? I don't think that we must do this (although the rhetoric of some politicians might imply it's even a legal issue). We must NOT do it. To be sure, our planet and our needs do seem to lend themselves to defining chemicals and substances which tend to work better than others. Work better where? Maybe what will work best in a particular situation might be one that doesn't work so well - using wood ash to make soap might make inferior soap to the kind of lye we use for biodiesel, but if these people are poor and far away, if they're going to be confined to using lab-standard lye for soap they're going to be poor and far away and dirty, which is not best. Part of the way we work out the best ones seems to be simply in the market-place. Part of the way is through the initiative and push of corporations and individuals either working legally or illegally in a market place. And part of the way is, rightly or wrongly, through govermental intervention. And another part of the way, perhaps most important, though it's generally neglected, is by individual and community choice. Why it might be most important is that it's at this level that the greatest expertise is to be found on the particular conditions, restraints, advantages, which will define the choice of the best technology. Bush's decision to push (not only through rhetoric but through dispensation of funds) certain energy policy solutions and not others (drilling in ANWR, a push for funding hydrogen, but very little push for solar, wind, etc.) is his decision. I disagree with it not because I disagree always with what he is pushing, but generally because of what he ignores. This person, who has consistently shown a weak understanding of Energy Policy and technology, seems to have decided that he is the arbiter of our Future. He wants us to join him in his decision that Hydrogen is it. For all I know, Hydrogen may turn out to be it, but as I said before, it seems to me there are reasons to embrace and continue to use and push for other fuels and energy sources, on various levels. This means pushing for solar and wind and other presently-underutilitized-(in my view)-pimrary sources and this means pushing for the idea that Hydrogen is *not* the only way to store and utilize energy later on. There are other gaseous and liquid fuels which present their own advantages and disadvantages, up to and including that some of them are far more energy dense and easily transported than Hydrogen at room temperatures. The conversation becomes confused, because we are slowly moving toward using Fuel Cells rather than less efficient (it is claimed) devices for converting fuels to electric energy, and fuel cells as I understand it generally tend toward wanting pure Hydrogen as fuel. Even granting this simplification, though, it does not mean that Hydrogen must be the fuel transported to those cells. One can transport fuels which contain Hydrogen to the point of use, and then reform the fuels. So, whether we use fuel cells or other means of converting liquids or gasses or solids to useable energy, I think we can continue to have our *own* discussion, an ongoing competitive one that will last our lifetimes and much longer, as to exciting new fuel ideas, and there may be times when there is no right answer for a given task, but several viable (both technologically and business-wise) fuels for a given task. We do not need the President or any other person to decide for us in such a heavy-handed way, sort of hijacking the topic, as to the fuel(s) of the future. If Hydrogen is a good idea, we can hash that out ourselves, and if there are many many other good fuel ideas, we can keep them in mind too. Further interesting economics complications and considerations are introduced when we consider such important issues as that we have materials we presently regard as waste (urine, feces, wood from forests, decaying landfill materials) which not only lend themselves to being used partly for their energy, for the fuel that can be broken from them, but also need to be disposed of or used in some way in some cases. So, if we have sewage containing animal or human
[biofuel] Re: Senator Feinstein's (D, Cal) Arguments Against U.S. Ethanol Mandate
Thanks for the response. I'm going to pass it on a little. In Taken For A Ride, by Doyle, it was pointed out that the Oil Companies have some history of coming up at the last minute with new Reformulated gasoline ideas, that will do the trick. In any event, those of us who have followed the Battery Electric Vehicle efforts in California know that things aren't always what they seem when it comes to trying to clean up the air here, or introduce any technology which threatens the Refiners' and Oil Companies' Integrated Monopolies. I don't disagree with all of Feinstein's points, but on the whole I'd like to see some way toward more use of biofuels in CAlifornia. http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-ethanol03.htm On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:45:50 -0600, you wrote: Please don't let me get started on her, to my knowledge, she has done more harm than good in many cases, and an there are a few things she is not saying in her address. 1) Her comments were written around May 13, '03, and according to her, she paid, $50.00 for a tank of gas, well, at $2.00 a gal. that was at least a 25 gal gas tank, that she put the gas into. Little fuel efficient, cars have fuel tanks in the 12 - 15 gal range or smaller. Vehicles that have fuel tanks in the 25 gal. ( or more ) range are the larger truck's, van's, and suv's. 2) According to comment #3, she is concerned about Transportation and Infrastructure Problems , yet in her home state, is ( from my under standing ) the largest produce producer in the U.S., and the have big problems with agriculture waste ( the non-edible ), and she does not seam to understand ( or she does not want to ) that this non-edible ag. waste can be feed stock for ethanol ( and methanol for that matter ). 3) Her argument about a high ethanol tariff in comment #8, is based on drinkable ethanol, and even if it is not, the tariff could be easily modified for the use of denatured ethanol for fuel. Her comment Instead of mandating ethanol into our fuel supply, we should be lifting all mandates or at least allow states a choice. We need to provide flexibility to refiners to allow them to optimize how and what they blend instead of forcing them to blend gasoline with MTBE or ethanol. , clearly shows her lack of thinking ahead ( or her lack of thinking altogether ), because if this were to take affect, then gas prices could very well get totally out of hand just for the simple reason, that if each state were to have a totally different mandate on what the fuel blends should do we are looking at a possibility of 50 different fuel blends and the cost of blending 50 different types of fuel would increase the cost of fuel over what it would be if there was only a dozen different fuel blends. There is already a problem with people living near the borders of different states, crossing state lines to get cheaper fuel, this would only get worse if the blending of umpteen different fuel mixes, caused even larger differences in fuel cost. California has long sought a waiver of the 2 percent oxygenate requirement. I have written and called former EPA Administrator Browner and the current Administrator Christine Todd Whitman and both former President Clinton and President Bush, urging approval of the waiver for the state. Yet both the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration have denied California's request. California has not been able to solve it's smog problem in the past, what makes Feinstein think that they can do it without blended fuels? As Red Cavaney - President of the American Petroleum Institute - said in March before the Energy Committee, 'Refiners have been saying for years that they can produce gasoline meeting clean-burning fuels and federal reformulated gasoline requirements without the use of oxygenates In addition, reformulated blendstocks - the base in which oxygenates are added - typically meet RFG performance requirements before oxygenates are added Then why haven't they already done so? Repeatedly in her speech, she talks about the concern of the environment with one hand and how ethanol will harm it, and on the other hand talks about how non-blended fossil fuels will make the environment better. To bad we can't take the excreatment that she throws around, and put it in a methane digester, and make biogas from it, maybe then we would have no world wide shortage of renewable fuel sources, and energy would be as cheap as she would like it to be. Greg H. - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 04:47 Subject: [biofuel] Senator Feinstein's (D, Cal) Arguments Against U.S. Ethan ol Mandate http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-ethanol03.htm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send
[biofuel] Why nobody challeges Bush Lies
Published on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 by GregPalast.com The Screwing of Cynthia McKinney by Greg Palast Have you heard about Cynthia McKinney, former U.S. Congresswoman? According to those quoted on National Public Radio, McKinney's a loose cannon (media expert) who the people of Atlanta are embarrassed and disgusted (politician) by, and she is also loony and dangerous (senator from her own party). Yow! And why is McKinney dangerous/loony/disgusting? According to NPR, McKinney implied that the [Bush] Administration knew in advance about September 11 and deliberately held back the information. The New York Times' Lynette Clemetson revealed her comments went even further over the edge: Ms. McKinney suggest[ed] that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war. That's loony, all right. As an editor of the highly respected Atlanta Journal Constitution told NPR, McKinney's practically accused the President of murder! Problem is, McKinney never said it. That's right. The quote from McKinney is a complete fabrication. A whopper, a fabulous fib, a fake, a flim-flam. Just freakin' made up. Hi, Lynette. My name is Greg Palast, and I wanted to follow up on a story of yours. It says, let's see, after the opening - it's about Cynthia McKinney - it's dated Washington byline August 21. McKinney's [opponent] capitalized on the furor caused by Miss McKinney's suggestion this year that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war. Now, I have been trying my darndest to find this phrase . . . I can't. . . Lynette Clemetson, New York Times: Did you search the Atlanta Journal Constitution? Yes, but I haven't been able to find that statement. I've heard that statement - it was all over the place. I know it was all over the place, except no one can find it and that's why I'm concerned. Now did you see the statement in the Atlanta Journal Constitution? Yeah [Note: No such direct quote from McKinney can be found in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.] And did you confirm this with McKinney? Well, I worked with her office. The statement is from the floor of the House [of Representatives] Right? So did you check the statement from the Floor of the House? I mean I wouldn't have done the story. . . . Have you looked at House transcripts? Yes. Did you check that? Of course. You did check it? [Note: No such McKinney statement can be found in the transcripts or other records of the House of Representatives.] I think you have to go back to the House transcripts I mean it was all over the place at the time. Yes, this is one fact the Times reporter didn't fake: The McKinney quote was, indeed, all over the place: in the Washington Post, National Public Radio, and needless to say, all the other metropolitan dailies - everywhere but in Congresswoman McKinney's mouth. Nor was it in the Congressional Record, nor in any recorded talk, nor on her Website, nor in any of her radio talks. Here's the Congresswoman's statement from the record: George Bush had no prior knowledge of the plan to attack the World Trade Center on September 11. Oh. And I should say former Congresswoman McKinney. She was beaten in the August 2002 Democratic primary. More precisely, she was beaten to death, politically, by the fabricated quote. Months before the 2000 presidential elections, the offices of Florida Governor Jeb Bush and Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 90,000 citizens from the voter rolls because they were convicted felons . . . and felons can't vote in Florida. There was one problem: 97 percent of those on the list were, in fact, innocent. They weren't felons, but they were guilty . . . of not being white. Over half the list contained names of non-whites. I'm not guessing: I have the list from out of the computers of Katherine Harris' office - and the scrubbed voter's race is listed with each name. And that's how our President was elected: by illegally removing tens of thousands of legal African American voters before the race. But you knew that . . . at least you did if you read the British papers - I reported this discovery for the Guardian of London. And I reported again on the nightly news. You saw that . . . if you live in Europe or Canada or South America. In the USA, the story ran on page zero. Well, let me correct that a bit. The Washington Post did run the story on the fake felon list that selected our President - even with a comment under my byline. I wrote the story within weeks of the election, while Al Gore was still in the race. The Post courageously ran it . . . seven months after the election. The New York Times ran it . . . well, never, even after Katherine Harris confessed the scam to a Florida court after she and the state were
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
Funny, the Mexican version doesn't have side impact beams, for example... Ryan -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:45 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, Knowing safety issues in Europe and VW design principles, I doubt that the Lupo is a problem. If it would have been the VW Brazilian GOL, you might have a point. It is more to it. My suspicion is that the TDI Golf is a preferred model and with a relatively small diesel market in US, they will wait for ULSD. All European cars are now covering ULSD and biodiesel mixes, the Japanese also. Ethanol mixes also. If the Lupo is called the 3 liter car, the Golf TDI should be called the 4 liter car. 25% difference in consumption, but still extremely good. If the market for diesels develop like the European market, be sure that the Lupo will be there. Hakan At 08:32 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618
To be a beta tester, it will cost you $6,500 (ie, the price of the bike) and at the end of the testing period they will take it back and you will have to wait for a production bike. At least that is what they told me when I was going to apply. I decided not to, but others may be more interested. James Slayden On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, HempCycle Webmaster wrote: I don't know the status of the army bike, but eCycle is in the process of recruiting beta testers and raising the money to build a test run of 100 bikes. I'll be one of the beta testers, and I'll be using hempseed oil provided by Don Wirtshafter and processed into biodiesel by Todd Swearingen. Will Dwyer -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:11 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 We have talked about this one before. And the all diesel motorcycle that the US army is putting through trials. Greg H. More details here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html Diesel motorbikes What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to have been testing for a long time. Same goes for the eCycle, still not in production AFAIK. Keith - Original Message - From: Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 00:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 How about a 180 miles per gallon Diesel hybrid/electric motorcycle that goes 0 to 60 in 6 seconds and can do 80 miles per hour. Who ever said greeners can't have a good time? http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm From Mike Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know
You still have to part the air, you have to accomodate the cross sectional area of the vehicle. Laminar flow is wonderful idea but doesn't solve all the loss. Kirk -Original Message- From: gobie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:53 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know - Original Message - From: Forbes Bagatelle-Black [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the speeds we are discussing, wind resistance accounts for most of the energy consumed. Other sources of energy consumption are rolling resistance of the tires, which remains constant relative to velocity (but not vehicle mass), and inefficiencies in the drivetrain and engine. Drivetrain inefficiencies remain relatively constant. Engine efficiencies, on the other hand, vary greatly largely as a function of actual torque at a given RPM and peak torque at that RPM. Efficiency tends to increase as actual torque approach peak torque. Now here is one from the weird ideas department. What if we could reduce the wind resistance by mechanical means. Wind resistance increasing vastly as speed increases, mechanical energy requirements increasing less. Would need something like a moving skin on the vehicle same speed as the air. Its alright folks, very early in the morning here, gpoing to get some sleep , will be back to normal in a few hours. Yawns, Paul Gobert. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
Ryan, No car would be accepted in Europe without sufficient side impact protection and sufficient independent tests to go with it. I have no idea about Mexico and would not judge without proper information. Europe (including Germany, the home of VolksWagen) is East of US, Mexico is South. Hakan At 11:17 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: Funny, the Mexican version doesn't have side impact beams, for example... Ryan -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:45 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, Knowing safety issues in Europe and VW design principles, I doubt that the Lupo is a problem. If it would have been the VW Brazilian GOL, you might have a point. It is more to it. My suspicion is that the TDI Golf is a preferred model and with a relatively small diesel market in US, they will wait for ULSD. All European cars are now covering ULSD and biodiesel mixes, the Japanese also. Ethanol mixes also. If the Lupo is called the 3 liter car, the Golf TDI should be called the 4 liter car. 25% difference in consumption, but still extremely good. If the market for diesels develop like the European market, be sure that the Lupo will be there. Hakan At 08:32 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618
Here are some URLs about the military diesel motorcycles. http://motorcyclecity.com/Military-bikes/M1030Diesel-Kawasaki.htm http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,208%257E12588%257E1073385,00.html Greg H. - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:54 Subject: Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 Last I had heard, the troops preferred, them over the standard motorbike, better low end response and torque, actually made them better in rough country, despite the face that the standard motorbike ( that it was being tested agenst ) had a slightly higher top speed on the flats and good roads. A few civilians have been allowed to try them out under supervision, and they to had favorable impressions, enough so that they were predicting that if they ever became available to the civilian market, that it would be a money maker. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:10 Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to have been testing for a long time. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
Thank you for pointing out where Mexico is, I thought it was North, my mistake. -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:34 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, No car would be accepted in Europe without sufficient side impact protection and sufficient independent tests to go with it. I have no idea about Mexico and would not judge without proper information. Europe (including Germany, the home of VolksWagen) is East of US, Mexico is South. Hakan At 11:17 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: Funny, the Mexican version doesn't have side impact beams, for example... Ryan -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:45 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, Knowing safety issues in Europe and VW design principles, I doubt that the Lupo is a problem. If it would have been the VW Brazilian GOL, you might have a point. It is more to it. My suspicion is that the TDI Golf is a preferred model and with a relatively small diesel market in US, they will wait for ULSD. All European cars are now covering ULSD and biodiesel mixes, the Japanese also. Ethanol mixes also. If the Lupo is called the 3 liter car, the Golf TDI should be called the 4 liter car. 25% difference in consumption, but still extremely good. If the market for diesels develop like the European market, be sure that the Lupo will be there. Hakan At 08:32 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618
I think you misunderstood them. You get to keep the test bike, and when they go into full production, you have the option of becoming a sales rep. -Original Message- From: James Slayden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:58 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 To be a beta tester, it will cost you $6,500 (ie, the price of the bike) and at the end of the testing period they will take it back and you will have to wait for a production bike. At least that is what they told me when I was going to apply. I decided not to, but others may be more interested. James Slayden On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, HempCycle Webmaster wrote: I don't know the status of the army bike, but eCycle is in the process of recruiting beta testers and raising the money to build a test run of 100 bikes. I'll be one of the beta testers, and I'll be using hempseed oil provided by Don Wirtshafter and processed into biodiesel by Todd Swearingen. Will Dwyer -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:11 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 We have talked about this one before. And the all diesel motorcycle that the US army is putting through trials. Greg H. More details here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html Diesel motorbikes What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to have been testing for a long time. Same goes for the eCycle, still not in production AFAIK. Keith - Original Message - From: Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 00:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618 How about a 180 miles per gallon Diesel hybrid/electric motorcycle that goes 0 to 60 in 6 seconds and can do 80 miles per hour. Who ever said greeners can't have a good time? http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm From Mike Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618
biofuel@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hi All, wouldn't the rotary weinkel engine ruuning on bio-diesel be relatively straight forwards with reasonable power to weight ratio? (25kg/ 400cc unit) Norton sucessfully ran a petrol one on the Isle of Man in early 90's ride on dD Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
No problems, North is Canada. The most important information I wanted to convey, was that the security standards in Europe in no parts are more laxed than US. In some senses they are even tougher and if we look at driving license requirements they are definitely higher. I think that the Germans and some other countries in Europe are leaders on secure auto design, long before US introduced its rules. These security designs was for a long time marketed successfully in US by Volvo, SAAB, Mercedes, BMW, VW, etc. and benchmarks when US introduced its legislation. Hakan At 01:30 PM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: Thank you for pointing out where Mexico is, I thought it was North, my mistake. -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:34 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, No car would be accepted in Europe without sufficient side impact protection and sufficient independent tests to go with it. I have no idea about Mexico and would not judge without proper information. Europe (including Germany, the home of VolksWagen) is East of US, Mexico is South. Hakan At 11:17 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: Funny, the Mexican version doesn't have side impact beams, for example... Ryan -Original Message- From: Hakan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:45 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Ryan, Knowing safety issues in Europe and VW design principles, I doubt that the Lupo is a problem. If it would have been the VW Brazilian GOL, you might have a point. It is more to it. My suspicion is that the TDI Golf is a preferred model and with a relatively small diesel market in US, they will wait for ULSD. All European cars are now covering ULSD and biodiesel mixes, the Japanese also. Ethanol mixes also. If the Lupo is called the 3 liter car, the Golf TDI should be called the 4 liter car. 25% difference in consumption, but still extremely good. If the market for diesels develop like the European market, be sure that the Lupo will be there. Hakan At 08:32 AM 6/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know
No thanx, got them with my engineering degree - Original Message - From: Forbes Bagatelle-Black [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know Dear Guy, If you were travelling through a perfect void in outer space, you could turn off the engine and coast. You would not slow down. However, we live on the earth, where we have to deal with friction. In automotive applications, friction shows up as air resistance, rolling resistance, and drivetrain inefficiency (although it is not the only component of drivetrain inefficiency). All these factors can be dealt with numerically. Please let me know if you would like the equations. Yours, Forbes --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, GuyW [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no energy consumed simply because an object is travelling at a certain velocity; an object in motion tends to stay in motion. If this were true, we'd just turn off the engine and coast... -Guy- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Deciding on Fuel(s) of the Future
Could we really say that we must standardize to one single solitary planet-wide method of storing and using whatever ambient energy we may harness or release? I don't think that we must do this (although the rhetoric of some politicians might imply it's even a legal issue). We must NOT do it. And yet it's hard. How does one introduce these topics in what seems sometimes like a rhetorical vaccuum? To be sure, our planet and our needs do seem to lend themselves to defining chemicals and substances which tend to work better than others. Work better where? Maybe what will work best in a particular situation might be one that doesn't work so well - using wood ash to make soap might make inferior soap to the kind of lye we use for biodiesel, but if these people are poor and far away, if they're going to be confined to using lab-standard lye for soap they're going to be poor and far away and dirty, which is not best. I think each planet and each biology may lend itself to some substances and not others. This is not to rule out anything. But some substances are poisonous and hazardous to us, while others aren't. Some are liquid under commonly found conditions, on Earth, while others are gaseous. Some are harder to use without igniting. Etc. Ad hoc: Regardless of the fuel(s) we may each manufacture in our communities, homesteads, near dumps, etc., I think a key element may be water. One can make fuels or useable materials from I reckon a wide variety of ingredients, but in a simple sense, if a farm is geared toward making whatever, and if we are starting to look to making fuel as well as food from nature's agricultural processes, then the need for water will not only be for agriculture, but perhaps also for fuel production, not only from agricultural products, but perhaps from other chemistries such as PV - to - electrolysis - to H2 (or whatever). MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site
I think the Lupo has safety issues, i.e. it doesn't meet the US safety standards. It should be made as safe as an SUV? Getting it up to par would probably involve re-tooling and negating the reward for selling in the US. Automakers usually lose money on their cheapest models, they use them as loss leaders to try to build brand loyalty. Why would VW bring over a 500,000+ mile loss leader that needs to be completely re-done to meet our safety standards here? Wait until the Japanese start bringing more diesels over once we switch to ULSD. Wait? Four more years? You've already waited 13 years. Wait for what? ULSD will need biodiesel for most motors anyway - you already have the biodiesel, who needs the ULSD? Don't wait - push! Best Keith Cheers! Ryan -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:13 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] VW Lupo USA site Volkswagen Lupo 3-Liter TDI http://www.LupoUSA.com (or VW Polo) Some excerpts: In Europe they call it the 3-liter car. The Volkswagen Lupo can travel 100 kilometers on three liters of diesel or bio-diesel. This translates to 99 miles per gallon on the highway, 64 in the city. How can I cajole, persuade, beg, or strong-arm VW to sell me one of these? From The VW Lupo USA Guestbook If hybrid sells good here, I don't see any reason 3-L TDI won't sell. C'mon, bring it over! America is supposed to stand for freedom... freedom to choose... I want this choice! Selling the Lupo in North America is an excellent step in promoting good stewardship of the environment. -- give consumers a choice to help fight air pollution. Please bring the Lupo to the States so we can have the ultimate commuting option! PLEASE help the US be a little more efficient with it's limited resources! I want a Lupo! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
yes that`s the one. i read something in old mother earth news, and then out came thunderdome -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel hi Greg, i think you meant methane. Chistopher =-Original Message- =From: greg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:46 AM =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel = = =what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as =with propane. greg =-Original Message- =From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel = = =How does one use NH3 as energy source ? =I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution =coming =out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. =If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, =it would be =great. = =Pieter Koole = =- Original Message - =From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] =To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] =Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; =[EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuel@yahoogroups.com; =[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM =Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel = = = It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It = seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is = that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater = energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a = liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? = = http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm = http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm = = There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. = This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and = cons a little. = = Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? = = Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in = response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my = experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening = response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such = as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in = the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join = them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then = fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one = that I just maintain for myself it seems. = = But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that = seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for = the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their = posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully = aware. = = MM = = = On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: = = You're welcome!! = = Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my =favorites, = ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but =notice that = it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and = nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this =substance. =It is = currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without =any reported =problems. = = Ernie Rogers = = Thanks for the feedback Ernie. = = = = = [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] = = = = == = THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. = -- = . Please feel free to send your input to: = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = . To view previous messages from the list, = subscribe to a daily digest of the list, = or stop receiving the list by e-mail = (and read it on the Web), go to = http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/renewable-energy . = . This e-mail discussion list is managed by = the American Wind Energy Association: = http://www.awea.org = -- = = = Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to =http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = = = = = = Biofuel at Journey to Forever: = http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html = = Biofuels list archives: = http://archive.nnytech.net/ = = Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. = To unsubscribe, send an email to: = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = = Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to =http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = = = = = = =Biofuel at Journey to Forever: =http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html = =Biofuels list archives: =http://archive.nnytech.net/ = =Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. =To unsubscribe,
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
-Original Message- From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel Hoi Greg, That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or buy it, or is it industrial equipment ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel - Original Message - From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel Somehow, we must get the messages in better order. Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this discussion was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen. While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not want to be around it. It can kill. Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees F and will lay in a liquid form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees F, the pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig. Bob Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob. Some how, Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it is not. Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol ( CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead. You can get Methane form the same source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but, that is completely different. As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well. Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there reformed into Methanol which could power your car. Greg H. - Original Message - From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as with propane. greg -Original Message- From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel How does one use NH3 as energy source ? I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be great. Pieter Koole Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Bio Methane (was: Ammonia as Fuel)
thank you , now i do not have to look all that up in my info thank you greg -Original Message- From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bio Methane (was: Ammonia as Fuel) Pieter Koole wrote: Hoi Greg, That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or buy it, or is it industrial equipment ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands At the risk of butting into someone else's conversation, I have a few links you might try if you're interested in anaerobic methanogenesis: http://www.methane-gas.com This is Al Rutan's web page. He's pretty knowledgeable about this particular subject. Here's a link to an article he wrote for Home Power magazine a while ago: http://www.homepower.com/files/methane.pdf?search=biogas http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html I don't know who this person is, but he seems to advocate a two step approach to methanogenesis. Steve Spence used to maintain a biogas reference library at webconx.com, but the link is dead right now. I only see his posts over at sci.energy.hydrogen--perhaps he found the anti war discussion in this forum too aggressive for his liking. Here is a link to his current biogas page: http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/methane.htm You can find a whole library of information there. http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html This is an article about an Englishman who runs his vehicle and heats his home with biogas from chicken manure. There's not a lot of technical info there, but it's interesting. . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
