RE: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[Franklin B. Del Rosario]

Hi Doug
My motorcycle is two stroke gasoline engine Yamaha 1983 model I used
biodiesel as a lube oil instead of shell 2T lube oil which I normally
used. Mixed biodiesel with gasoline (1:20) replace all rubber part fuel
line, carburator gasket etc. clean fuel tank, and change new spark plug.
so part the motor is running smoothly on city drive. Well my motor is
still under observation for long time effect.  I donât intend to use
biodiesel as an engine oil. 
Regards,
Frank
-Original Message-
From: doug foskey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:32 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

On Thursday 30 October 2003 12:13 pm, Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
> Hi Christopher
>
> I'm from the Philippines. I was interested about biodiesel that why
when
> I bought my new car it was a diesel engine. I've learned producing
> biodiesel form this club and do a lot of experimentation until learn
to
> produce biodiesel. I tested to my car and my motor cycle so far so
good.
> I do maintenance on these motors and if found long time effect I'll
> inform the group.
>
> frank

What Motorcycle do you have? 

regards Doug


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Re: [biofuel] Hay All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jay Colbe]

What is feedstock?
jay

Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I may be able to help you with feedstock.

Mark Osborne

--- Jay Colbe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hay; My name is Jay Colbe, and I live in West Sacramento  CA. I just
> got turned on to biodiesel and have started to think of forming a
> group to plan a processing plant in the area. Anyone interested?
>  
> 
> 
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[biofuel] Re: Changes

[shawstafari]

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> :-) It sure looks like a tsunami to me. I get the same feeling, 
I've 
> had it for awhile: the idea that these few years are an era on 
their 
> own, not just changing times, almost a fulcrum of history between 
the 
> past and the future (if any). So many different elements and 
> different issues are getting closer and closer, rubbing against 
each 
> other, everything spinning faster in some kind of cauldron of 
change. 
> Look in the pot and you see all the things you've mentioned and a 
lot 
> more things: struggles for public opinion, battles of titans over 
yet 
> more concentration of corporate media ownership (Murdoch and Blair 
vs 
> the BBC, currently, inter alia), emergence andconvergence of 
> extremely challenging and hopeful technologies like nanotech, 
> biotech, infotech, for better or for worse or for both, huge and 
> widening gaps between unprecedented wealth and unprecedented 
poverty, 
> echoes of the distant past, in the Roman Empire, in ancient 
struggles 
> of culture vs culture re-emerging with deadly effect... 
> chain-reactions, knock-on effects, rows of dominos... and the more 
> you look, the less you see anything approaching far-sightedness, 
> vision, depth, statesmanship in those purporting to be "leaders". 
> Who'll "win"? As Chairman Mao said when asked if he thought the 
> French Revolution had been a success: Too soon to tell. But, 
cresting 
> tsunamis notwithstanding, there's good reason to hope that the 
humans 
> of Planet Earth will win. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" is 
> what it says on the Gates of Hell, too soon for that too. All 
quite 
> exhilerating.
> 
> Beijing, eh? So what do you think it might have been that cursed 
us 
> to be reborn in these most interesting times, Derek? Not that I'd 
> have it any other way. Even Hell ain't Hell if you like it!
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Keith

Wow.  I'm just beginning to feel the force of the wave which brought 
me to this news group.  Trying to get up on the board instead 
getting pounded or having to duck dive through it.

As a part of my undergraduate (syn)thesis I will be conducting an 
enthonogrpahic study of individuals involved in this international 
movement.  While I will start with people in Santa Cruz, CA, this 
research will certainly benefit from perspectives of individuals 
outside the US.  

Thanks Keith for highlighting some of the more prevalent issues 
which biofuel activists have been facing lately.  I am certainly 
coming us against a lot of resistence here but at the same time am 
getting propelled ever-upwards.  The Social Ecology of the Biofuels 
Movement.

Dave Shaw



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[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!

[kabri2003]

Hi, I'm new to your forum. My husband and I just purchased a diesel 
F250 PSD and have been devouring everything we can read about 
biodiesel. We also own a Toyota Prius Hybrid. I'm a bit dismayed by 
the negativity I've seen on some of the biodiesel forums towards 
hybrid owners. Hey, if ANY car manufacturer made a diesel hybrid, I'd 
be first in line to buy one! We love our hybrid, but realize it is 1 
step, side by side with many others, like biodiesel, in the right 
direction.  The extreme quiet, ability to drive in electric mode 
only, the power the electric engine has, and the super-clean 
emissions are all reasons we love the car. Biodiesel is not getting 
the press it should, it took a bumpersticker on a mercedes diesel 
about using biodiesel to get us aware.  If VW made a diesel hybrid 
Jetta or if Toyota would sell a diesel Hybrid in the US, I'd buy one! 

Thanks to all for the wealth of info on this forum; thanks in advance 
for the biodiesel education!
Karen

--- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Brian Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've been thinking about a hybrid / biodiesel combo
> for a while. It would push fuel efficiency and
> sustainability to a new high for vehicles. I recently
> purchased a new jetta diesel though and still feel
> good about my plans to run it on biodiesel. The
> mileage will still be much better than most cars.
> Brian 
> --- murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The thing is, though, that the only two hybrid
> > makers haven't made
> > their hybrids biofuel-oriented, and the good diesel
> > or flex-fuel-E85
> > makers haven't made hybrids.  
> > 




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[biofuel] Re: Converting to FFV

[shawstafari]

> I have a 2003 Toyota Sequoia.  
> 
> I want to convert it to a Flex Fuel Vehicle(FFV).  Which will use 
the 
> E85 as well as normal gasoline.

David, 

It is unfortunate that Toyota does not yet make FFVs available from 
the factory.  Ford, GM, Isuzu and Mercedes do, but not Toyota.  As 
far as converting your Sequoia (I always hated that they took our 
sacred tree and named a gas guzzler after it), you can convert it to 
run solely on ethanol, and than switch it back to gasoline when/if 
you need to.  

To make it flexible or dual fueled is a bit more involved (and less 
in some ways).  That would require a fuel controller with enough 
capacity to hold data tables (for fuel/air mixture, timing, etc.) 
for all the different mixtures of gasoline and ethanol. 

Do such third-party controllers exist?  What is the FFV controller 
like that comes stock from the dealer?

Dave Shaw



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Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Ken Provost]

on 10/30/03 5:36 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> And even when all things are said and done? The
> cost of testing and insuring (liability) that the
> recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one
> of the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade
> is a much less involved matter. ...The problem is
> that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
> odour of the original feedstock

Bummer that the only people that want glycerine
(summer, et.al.) are gonna REALLY care how it
smells :-)-K


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Re: [biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Appal Energy]

Martin,

Thin film evaporators (industriall "wiped thin film" evaporators are used)
and vacuum are a must for glycerol.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0624.htm

Fifteen mm Hg is not an exceptionally strong vacuum. There are ~760 mm Hg
per atmosphere. However, fifteen inches would be moderate.

I presume the thought that "you wouldn't need a lot of volume" is referring
to not needing a large mechanical unit to effect a distillation? That would
be true. But you wouldn't get much output either. The biggest limitting
factor is not just the time it takes to elevate the temp of any given
volume, but the rate of exchange ("recharge rate") required at a given flow
rate to maintain that temp.

Not the most efficient process to be conducting with electric heat.

And even when all things are said and done? The cost of testing and insuring
(liability) that the recovered product is food or cosmetic grade is one of
the higher costs in the entire process. Tech grade is a much less involved
matter. The glycerol recovered after alcohol recovery post FFA separation is
tech grade. The problem is that the glycerol (and water) will still have the
odour of the original feedstock unless it's descented somewhere along the
way.

That alone causes some disconcerting problems with glycerol recovery and use
from WVO.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:39 PM
Subject: [biofuel] glycerine distillation


> Todd, do you think a thin film evaporator could be used to distill the
glycerine?
> I just did some research of my own, and it looks like would have to keep
the glycerine below the flash point (176C) which means you'd need a vacuum
of about 15mmHg (that's a pretty strong vacuum I assume)
>
> Would you still need a high volume pump if you did something like this:
>
> --
> |...
>
> The distilled glycerine would drop out and you wouldn't need a lot of
volume right?
>
> -- 
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://infoarchive.net/
> http://nnytech.net/
>
>
>
> Appal Energy wrote:
>
> >Pieter,
> >
> >I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure in
the
> >belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
> >
> >I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point to
> >prevent degradation
> >
> >The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and
bioidesel)
> >reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a temp
> >rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using an
> >insulated reactor or settling tank.
> >
> >I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has to
rise
> >through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin film
> >evaporator would be more efficient, both in fuel expended and in keeping
the
> >temp of the biodiesel elevated for a shorter period of time.
> >
> >Imagine a slightly inclined, enclosed, stainless-steel, rectangular box,
> >with the bottom being a "hot plate" that a thin film of biodiesel flows
over
> >at an adjusted rate. At the top of the box is an exhaust vent that the
> >evaporated alcohol vents out of and then into a condensor.
> >
> >That bottom "hot plate" should actually be a chamber that is filled with
a
> >circulating medium - a heat exchanger - rather than a direct form of
heat.
> >The returning, hot, biodiesel can be used to heat the reactor and or the
WVO
> >in a settling tank, in order to achieve better energy efficiency.
> >
> >Sometimes you have to build a city to handle one product.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
>
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>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] WVO and coated steel

[Greg and April]

It could be possible that the coating maybe causing a catalytic reaction with 
the WVO.

Greg H.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Darren Hill 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com ; [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 17:08
  Subject: [biofuel] WVO and coated steel


  HCII has posted about his experiences with WVO effecting steel coatings
  causing waxy deposits that block the filter.  He has found this with
  coatings on steel fuel filters and Mercedes fuel tanks..

  I have read a recent report of an American  having similar problems with
  a 1987 300D Mercedes tank.

  I guess some people might misdiagnose this as filter blocking due to the
  fats in the fuel.

  Anybody got any idea of what coatings may be causing this.

  Or does anybody have an example of this in the UK that I could have
  checked in a Lab 

  Darren



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[biofuel] WVO and coated steel

[Darren Hill]

HCII has posted about his experiences with WVO effecting steel coatings
causing waxy deposits that block the filter.  He has found this with
coatings on steel fuel filters and Mercedes fuel tanks..

I have read a recent report of an American  having similar problems with
a 1987 300D Mercedes tank.

I guess some people might misdiagnose this as filter blocking due to the
fats in the fuel.

Anybody got any idea of what coatings may be causing this.

Or does anybody have an example of this in the UK that I could have
checked in a Lab 

Darren



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[biofuels-biz] WVO and coated steel

[Darren Hill]

HCII has posted about his experiences with WVO effecting steel coatings
causing waxy deposits that block the filter.  He has found this with
coatings on steel fuel filters and Mercedes fuel tanks..

I have read a recent report of an American  having similar problems with
a 1987 300D Mercedes tank.

I guess some people might misdiagnose this as filter blocking due to the
fats in the fuel.

Anybody got any idea of what coatings may be causing this.

Or does anybody have an example of this in the UK that I could have
checked in a Lab 

Darren



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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Martin Klingensmith]

The consideration is also for reliability IMO.
It's hard to beat 1 moving part versus many for a diesel, when possible.
Another thing to take into consideration is the size of a very small turbine to 
power a house. As parts get smaller, common materials become inadequate. 
It has been my experience that diesels are used for smaller installations, and 
turbines for medium sized installations - a large hotel, office building, or 
campus situation.

-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



murdoch wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:12:49 -0500, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Their website lists 70-90% for cogeneration. I would imagine much less if 
>>you're wasting the exhaust heat.
>>
>>-- 
>>
>>
>
>Thx.  This whole cogeneration thing confuses me.  I mean, we're told that ICE
>engines invariably lose x amount to pumping losses and what-not, but if those
>"losses" are partly used in a productive way by cogeneration, ... i.e. if
>cogeneration can be applied to all of these technologies (ICE, micro-turbine,
>fuel cell) and if they're all about the same efficiency once cogeneration is
>taken into account, then aren't the advantages of switching to other
>technologies reduced?  Just a thought I've been having for awhile.  If
>cogeneration is in part the fine are of making "waste" heat useable, then I'd
>think that could be nicely applied to technologies such as ICE engines with
>plenty of "waste" heat.
>
>
>  
>




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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Dan Maker]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> 
> Dan,
> 
> I have a vague idea that I read somewhere that they are around USD 20,000 to 
> 30,000. Way too much for a home application. Hopefully if they are downsized, 
> the price would also be deflated. But, for a commercial application such as a 
> cogen in a hotel, apparently the price is competitive.

I called their toll-free number and asked some questions, here is what they
said:

30kw - $1000/kw to $1500/kw
60kw - $850/kw to $1250/kw

The sales rep for my area will be contacting me in the next week or so. I'l
try to get more information.

Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard


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Re: [biofuel] Re: more coverage of gas prices in U.S.

[Perry Jones]

Dave,
Sorry to have taken forever to get back to you; no excuses, I've just had a
bunch of emails sitting on my computer for an eternity and figured it's time
to take care of them.  I'm in Pittsburgh but don't know any sources as yet
for oil.  I'm nowhere near getting started in making my own, although I'd
like to actually make some progress in that direction over the course of the
winter and see if I can actually start doing something by next year.  I had
figured to check out a couple of the Chinese restaurants locally and see
what happens.  That's really first or maybe second base:  getting a source
of oil.  Everyone says it's easy but I'm not so sure and now you say you've
had some problems.

Have you gotten up and running with actually making BD at home?  If so, I'd
love to see your setup and find out more about the process.

Speaking of diesels, I've just bought a new TDI and so I'm selling my '90
Jetta NA and my '92 Jetta TD.  If you're interested in either let me know.
My stable of gassers and diesels must be pared down to just two so those go
as well as my venerable Pathfinder.  I've given up hope of finding a
reasonable diesel conversion for it and will just have to wait until more
diesels come into the US market over the next couple of years.  Certainly by
2006 we'll have some reasonable choices.  I'd love either a diesel XTerra or
Toyota Tacoma
Perry

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: more coverage of gas prices in U.S.


> Perry,
>
> You live in Western PA?  I live in Allegheny County.  If you live
> nearby, can you suggest some places to ask for their WVO?  I am
> really having trouble getting people to cooperate.  Also, if you hear
> of any good deals on diesel vehicles or lawn tractors in the area
> ($2000 or less) please let me know.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I just paid $1.999/gal. for diesel tonight!  In western PA, where
> diesel is
> > a little on the high side, but it's not CA or FL..At this
> rate I'll
> > be able to use biodiesel when it thaws in the spring since last I
> checked it
> > was at $2.72/gal locally (up from $2.15/gal last
> August)..Love those
> > 50mpg VW's.
> > Perry
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Doug Allbright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 7:14 PM
> > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: more coverage of gas prices in U.S.
> >
> >
> > > 3.00 and 4.00 dollars a gallon OUCH OUCH OUCH I am so very
> pissed that
> > diesel has reached 1.70 a gallon here. Hell I was angry when it was
> more
> > than a dollar. I have never understood why gas cost so much more in
> Europe,
> > not that I really ever thought about it much but it seems like rape
> to me.
> > Someone please clue me in to why it cost so damn much over there.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 6:14 PM
> > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: more coverage of gas prices in U.S.
> > >
> > >
> > > $3.00 a gallon is fine by me. $4.00 and I'll start to complain.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > > ; 
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:54 AM
> > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: more coverage of gas prices in U.S.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2003/March/01/local/stories/0
> 1local
> > > .htm
> > > >
> > > > Funny how the only article I could find discussing the
> dreaded "I" word
> > > > "Inflation" is here, in a Canadian paper (must not have had to
> get
> > through
> > > the
> > > > censorship of the American media):
> > > > http://www.simcoe.com/sc/barrie/story/915707p-1088721c.html
> > > >
> > > > If interest rates in the U.S. have to rise, I wonder what that
> will do
> > to
> > > > property values?  I think a lot of folks have been focusing on
> that,
> > some
> > > of
> > > > them having lost some in the stock market decline, but having
> retained
> > > some
> > > > value in their property.
> > > >
> > > > Natural Gas way up also:
> > > >
> > > http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Site=LL
> >  Site=LL&Date=20030301&Catego
> > r> &Date=20030301&Categor
> > > y=NEWS&ArtNo=303010341&Ref=AR&Profile=1004
> > > >
> > > > "don't make large bets prices will fall:
> > > > http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0303/01/b05.html
> > > >
> > > > I didn't much like this article, as it attempts to claim that
> hybrids
> > will
> > > never
> > > > be looked at for their frugal gas use (let's try $5 per gallon
> and see
> > who
> > > buys
> > > > a hybrid), but it gave some persp

[biofuel] Organic farming combats global warming big time

[Greg and April]

I found this to be of interest, and thought that the list would find it 
interesting as well.

http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/1003/carbonsequest.shtml

Greg H.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[murdoch]

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:12:49 -0500, you wrote:

>Their website lists 70-90% for cogeneration. I would imagine much less if 
>you're wasting the exhaust heat.
>
>-- 

Thx.  This whole cogeneration thing confuses me.  I mean, we're told that ICE
engines invariably lose x amount to pumping losses and what-not, but if those
"losses" are partly used in a productive way by cogeneration, ... i.e. if
cogeneration can be applied to all of these technologies (ICE, micro-turbine,
fuel cell) and if they're all about the same efficiency once cogeneration is
taken into account, then aren't the advantages of switching to other
technologies reduced?  Just a thought I've been having for awhile.  If
cogeneration is in part the fine are of making "waste" heat useable, then I'd
think that could be nicely applied to technologies such as ICE engines with
plenty of "waste" heat.

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Re: [biofuel] Natural-Gas-To-Liquids using Fischer-Tropsch?

[Martin Klingensmith]

What exactly constitutes a 'stranded' natural gas resource, and why would it be 
cheaper to build a plant to produce liquid fuel at such a place? (that's what 
they cite as one reason for doing it)
I don't know how much gas it takes to create the liquid fuel, but I don't know 
why it would be better to do so. I haven't heard that gas prices are going down 
any time soon have you?



-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



murdoch wrote:

>http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031003/daf004a_1.html
>
>Anyone who knows about these chemical processes have any opinions (good, bad,
>indifferent) in reading this?  I think Syntroleum started out as sort of a
>Texaco thing but I don't recall.  I do know that Texaco was looking to increase
>the value of their Natural Gas Assets.  Parts of this article will really 
>bother
>those here, in that it ignores the many benefits of the renewable biofuels that
>we discuss.  But I'm also just sort of curious and interested in the claimed
>values of the fuels this plant will produce.
>
>Years ago I included them in our "Fuel Cell Index" because it seemed clear that
>they were trying to produce fuels that might be used in a fuel cell.  For
>example, they speak of their fuels being relatively hydrogen-rich.  That still
>seems to be true, though I gnash my teeth to continue including them, since
>they're so totally pro-oil/obfuscate-renewables.  I'd *love* to include a
>biofuel company that had a realistic tie-in to fuel cells.
>
>
>Press Release Source: Syntroleum Corporation 
>
>
>Syntroleum Dedicates Ultra-Clean Fuels Plant With Marathon and U.S. DOE
>Friday October 3, 11:00 am ET  
>Completes Construction on Plant to Produce Synthetic Diesel From Natural Gas
>Feedstock for Government Vehicle Fleet Demonstrations 
>
>
>TULSA, Okla., Oct. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Syntroleum Corporation (Nasdaq:
>SYNM - News), Marathon Oil Company and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)
>announced today the dedication of the newly constructed gas-to-liquids (GTL)
>demonstration plant at the Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma. When the 
>plant
>goes on stream in early November it will employ the proprietary Syntroleum¨
>Process to produce about 70 barrels per day of ultra-clean synthetic
>transportation fuels. The fuel will be used in long-term testing and
>demonstration in vehicle fleets, such as Washington, DC metropolitan buses and
>National Park Service vehicles.
> 
>The plant was designed and constructed under the DOE's Ultra-Clean Fuels
>program, a federal program managed by the DOE's National Energy Technology
>Laboratory to pioneer a new generation of ultra-clean transportation fuels to
>significantly reduce tailpipe emissions from cars, trucks and other heavy
>vehicles. The plant's construction and operating costs approximate $52 million
>-- of which the DOE funded $11.5 million. The remainder was funded jointly by
>Syntroleum and Marathon.
>
>The Ultra-Clean Fuels program will produce ultra-clean synthetic diesel and
>other fuels for a series of test programs that will be managed by Integrated
>Concepts & Research Corporation (ICRC). While the fuels will initially be 
>tested
>in diesel fleets (including Washington D.C. metropolitan buses and Denali
>National Park vehicles), the U.S. Department of Defense and U.S. Department of
>Transportation have indicated interest in follow-on projects to produce fuel 
>for
>demonstration in additional applications such as military, construction, rail
>locomotion, marine, etc. The fuels also have potential additional applications
>in jet engines and fuel cells. Since the fuels are dense in hydrogen and
>virtually sulfur free, they are cleaner, efficient and offer advantages for 
>fuel
>cell application. Syntroleum also believes that GTL fuels offer further
>potential advantages, such as distribution through existing infrastructure, 
>ease
>of containment on board the vehicle and increased safety.
>
>"This project has progressed rapidly and smoothly, thanks to the partnership
>with the U.S. Energy Department, close cooperation within the joint Marathon 
>and
>Syntroleum development team and the professional work of the construction group
>from Mustang Tampa," stated Kenneth Agee, Syntroleum's Chairman and CEO. "We
>view the completion of this new plant as a real milestone that will clearly
>demonstrate the Syntroleum Process and the advantages of GTL fuels from
>environmental and commercial perspectives."
>
>"We are pleased to participate in the Ultra-Clean Fuels project," stated
>Clarence Cazelot, Chairman and CEO of Marathon Oil Corporation. "The products
>this plant will produce will clearly demonstrate how natural gas can be used as
>a premium transportation fuel with significant environmental benefits. Also, 
>the
>experience we will gain will enable us to evaluate new options for future oil
>and gas developments that could integrate GTL technology."
>
>"The Ultra Clean Fuels project demonstrates how go

Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[desertstallion]

Dan,

I have a vague idea that I read somewhere that they are around USD 20,000 to 
30,000. Way too much for a home application. Hopefully if they are downsized, 
the price would also be deflated. But, for a commercial application such as a 
cogen in a hotel, apparently the price is competitive.

Regards,

Derek

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > 
> > I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a 
> > house 
> > sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with 
> > biodiesel. 
> > Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space 
> > heat, 
> > hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.
> 
> They look nice, but I've been unable to find pricing information.  Have
> any of you seen prices for them?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dan
> -- 
> Jack of all trades, master of none.
> Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
> http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard

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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[desertstallion]

MM,

I think they are only used in buses or trucks for HEV applications due to 
their output. These are either 30 or 60 kW turbines. They can be grouped in 
sets of up to 100 units working together for non-HEV applications. That was 
why I made the comment about downsizing. Currently, they are too large for 
what I would want for a single home or a small vehicle. But, the technology 
looks 'perfect,' if they could be downsized.

Poke around the site at www.microturbine.com They have some white papers that 
deal with emissions, etc. They might have what you are looking for concerning 
efficiency, which I think is a good point relative to the fuel cells, and one 
I hadn't thought of. If I am reading the chart properly, electrical 
efficiency is between 25% and 30% for the 30kW turbine, depending on fuel. 
Efficiency would go up if the exhaust heat is used in a cogen for stationary 
applications, but I don't see any figures for that.

Derek

> Does anyone know the upper limits of energy efficiency on these turbines?  I
> know with a conventional ICE engine, a major reason for looking to fuel cells 
> as
> alternatives is that ICE engines are permanently limited by Carnot Cycle
> inefficiencies.  Even though many fuel cells are not yet above 40-50%
> efficiency, their theoretical efficiencies are much higher than ICE engines.  
> Is
> this also true of Microturbines?
> 
> The HEV success stories on the page you link all appear to be very large
> vehicles (busses).  I wonder if there's a reason.
> 
> MM


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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Martin Klingensmith]

Their website lists 70-90% for cogeneration. I would imagine much less if 
you're wasting the exhaust heat.

-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



murdoch wrote:

>Does anyone know the upper limits of energy efficiency on these turbines?  I
>know with a conventional ICE engine, a major reason for looking to fuel cells 
>as
>alternatives is that ICE engines are permanently limited by Carnot Cycle
>inefficiencies.  Even though many fuel cells are not yet above 40-50%
>efficiency, their theoretical efficiencies are much higher than ICE engines.  
>Is
>this also true of Microturbines?
>
>The HEV success stories on the page you link all appear to be very large
>vehicles (busses).  I wonder if there's a reason.
>
>MM
>
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:48:22 +, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm really excited about these microturbines. The tubine/generator shaft is 
>>supported on air bearings. There aren't any lubricants. The things will run 
>>24/7 with minimal maintenance only needing an air filter change once a year 
>>or so. The exhaust is exceedingly clean. They will run on diesel, biodiesel, 
>>kerosene, and probably ethanol. They can also run on gaseous fuels such as 
>>natural gas, propane, LNG, and I am sure they could be adjusted for hydrogen 
>>when and if that becomes available. Which leaves me wondering WHY do we need 
>>fuel cells? Right now, we have a running technology, Hakan's ready to use 
>>technology, that apparently can do all, and more, of what is expected with a 
>>fuel cell. They can be used as the power source in a hybrid vehicle. I 
>>believe the problem with turbines in a direct drive vehicle was the 
>>difficulty of controlling accesleration and start up time. That wouldn't 
>>appear to be a problem in a hybrid that basically needs an engine running at 
>>a constant output.
>>
>>I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a house 
>>sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with biodiesel. 
>>Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space heat, 
>>hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.
>>
>>Do we really need to wait all of those years for a fuel cell?
>>
>>Derek
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Derek, how goes?
>>>
>>>Thanks for the links.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across
these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I
felt they make an interesting read.

http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp

Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel
or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with
mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution,
maintenance, etc.


>>
>>
>
>  
>




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Re: Evaporators was Re: [biofuel] filtering process

[Mark]

The jam and jelly industry uses a flash evaporator that would work very
well. Seems that a lot of food processing equipment is nearly plug and
play for BD processing...


Mark Osborne
HomeGrown Natural Foods

--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pieter,
> 
> I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure
> in the
> belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
> 
> I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point
> to
> prevent degradation
> 
> The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and
> bioidesel)
> reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a
> temp
> rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using
> an
> insulated reactor or settling tank.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has
> to rise
> through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin film
> evaporator would be more efficient, both in fuel expended and in
> keeping the
> temp of the biodiesel elevated for a shorter period of time.
> 
> Imagine a slightly inclined, enclosed, stainless-steel, rectangular
> box,
> with the bottom being a "hot plate" that a thin film of biodiesel
> flows over
> at an adjusted rate. At the top of the box is an exhaust vent that
> the
> evaporated alcohol vents out of and then into a condensor.
> 
> That bottom "hot plate" should actually be a chamber that is filled
> with a
> circulating medium - a heat exchanger - rather than a direct form of
> heat.
> The returning, hot, biodiesel can be used to heat the reactor and or
> the WVO
> in a settling tank, in order to achieve better energy efficiency.
> 
> Sometimes you have to build a city to handle one product.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 5:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] filtering process
> 
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > When I try to recover methanol out of the BD, untill what
> temperature can
> I
> > bring the BD at maximum, without "damaging" the BD ? ( Can it be
> damaged
> ? )
> >
> > Met vriendelijke groeten,
> > Pieter Koole
> > Netherlands
> >
> > The information contained in this message (including attachments)
> is
> > confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s)
> > only.  If you have received this message in error please delete it
> and
> > notify the originator immediately.  The unauthorized use,
> disclosure,
> > copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We
> will not
> be
> > liable for direct, special, indirect or
> > consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of
> this
> > message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as
> a
> result
> > of any virus being passed on.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] filtering process
> >
> >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > Almost no one is dealing with methanol recovery at the home
> scale.
> > >
> > > Best time to recover it is after FFA/glycerin recovery if the
> fertilizer
> > and
> > > FFA (fuel) co-products are going to be used elsewhere. Alcohol
> recovery
> at
> > > this stage also means a lesser volume that has to pass over the
> > evaporator,
> > > erego a lesser energy input to recover the same volume of
> alcohol.
> > >
> > > If the expectancy is to "just dump" the stuff, then the alcohol
> should
> be
> > > recovered prior to dumping.
> > >
> > > There aren't any "in betweens."
> > >
> > > Todd Swearingen
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "James Slayden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 12:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] filtering process
> > >
> > >
> > > > Todd,
> > > >
> > > > Are you allowing the BD to settle up over that time, or are you
> doing
> > meth
> > > > recovery as soon as the drum is filled?  I was wondering how
> people
> were
> > > > dealing with the meth recovery on a smallish level.  I will be
> getting
> > > > some plans for a solar still using 55gal drums and I am
> wondering if
> > that
> > > > will be useful for glyc meth recovery.
> > > >
> > > > James Slayden
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Appal Energy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Doug,
> > > > >
> > > > > In response to what type of filter is best to use in your
> quest?
> > > > >
> > > > > The simplest and least expensive (more often than not) is
> "time."
> > > > >
> > > > > Time as a filter??
> > > > >
> > > > > A good bit of glycerin can remain solute in biodiesel, as can
> much
> > > biodiesel
> > > > > remain solute in the glycerin cocktail, long after a
> substantial
> > waiting
> > > > > period. Hence the need to wash the biodiesel and the wise
> choice of
> > > > > aggregating the glycerin cocktail batch after batch, letting
> the
> > > remaining
> > > > > fraction of biodiesel "settle up" over time.

Re: [biofuel] Changes

[Keith Addison]

Hi Derek

>Hi Keith and all the list,
>
> > Hi Derek, how goes?
> >
>
>I'm hoping to be more active on the list again.

You'll be welcome, as ever.

>I've had trouble accessing
>the list through my company's firewall. Things are improving.

Is it that Yahoo addresses are not always welcome everywhere?

>Anyway, I have
>been reading through a couple of thousand messages and catching up!!
>
>I've been thinking of back when I first joined the list and we had a minor
>celebration when we hit 500 members.

:-) Virtual champagne, as I recall. Dry, it was, extra dry (but cheap!).

>Now I see we are heading for two
>thousand.

Yes, and with nearly 30,000 messages in the archives. That is now a 
major resource in its own right.

>Over the relatively few years that we have been visiting together,
>I think a lot of progress has been made with biofuels. Although it can seem
>frustrating at times, I think if one looks at where we have come from, a lot
>has been accomplished.

Indeed, on all fronts - at the industry level, the general awareness 
level and especially at the individual level. DIY biofuels is a 
rapidly growing and rapidly spreading worldwide phenomenon now. I 
think it's way out of control, much too late to stop it. Which was 
rather the idea.

>Also in the roughly four years of the list, Keith moved from Hong Kong to
>Japan, and has lived at two locations in Japan.

Three (and watch this space).

>I moved from Saudi, to
>Beijing, China, to Spain, and back to Saudi. I'm sure many others have also
>had personal upheavals!
>
>During the four years of the list there have been two wars fought, many would
>say with energy concerns at the root of the cause for the conflicts. We've
>used up a lot more fossil fuels. Concerns that four years ago were discussed
>such as global warming are now becoming less theory and more real with recent
>news reports about the shrinking ice caps, etc.
>
>But, the word is getting out about biofuels. More and more people are aware
>of them. More people are using them. Their time is here and now, and more so
>every day.

Yes!

>Other things are helping. Wind energy is fast becoming a major
>player whereas four years ago it was just getting off the ground. Hybrid
>vehicles were more or less a concept four years ago. Now, they are close to
>making a major play. I'm sure everyone will have their own examples.

The steadily rising fuel economy and efficiency of the new diesels, 
their low emissions, their growing popularity, especially in Europe. 
The spread of car-free days, and I'd have to add the growing strength 
of the worldwide protests against "business-as-usual" since the 
Battle of Seattle. And, of course, probably the crucial factor, the 
Internet.

>But, I do kind of feel that we are swimming just ahead of the wave. Hopefully
>fast enough to keep it from crashing on us. And, hopefully it won't be a
>tsunami.

:-) It sure looks like a tsunami to me. I get the same feeling, I've 
had it for awhile: the idea that these few years are an era on their 
own, not just changing times, almost a fulcrum of history between the 
past and the future (if any). So many different elements and 
different issues are getting closer and closer, rubbing against each 
other, everything spinning faster in some kind of cauldron of change. 
Look in the pot and you see all the things you've mentioned and a lot 
more things: struggles for public opinion, battles of titans over yet 
more concentration of corporate media ownership (Murdoch and Blair vs 
the BBC, currently, inter alia), emergence andconvergence of 
extremely challenging and hopeful technologies like nanotech, 
biotech, infotech, for better or for worse or for both, huge and 
widening gaps between unprecedented wealth and unprecedented poverty, 
echoes of the distant past, in the Roman Empire, in ancient struggles 
of culture vs culture re-emerging with deadly effect... 
chain-reactions, knock-on effects, rows of dominos... and the more 
you look, the less you see anything approaching far-sightedness, 
vision, depth, statesmanship in those purporting to be "leaders". 
Who'll "win"? As Chairman Mao said when asked if he thought the 
French Revolution had been a success: Too soon to tell. But, cresting 
tsunamis notwithstanding, there's good reason to hope that the humans 
of Planet Earth will win. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" is 
what it says on the Gates of Hell, too soon for that too. All quite 
exhilerating.

Beijing, eh? So what do you think it might have been that cursed us 
to be reborn in these most interesting times, Derek? Not that I'd 
have it any other way. Even Hell ain't Hell if you like it!

Best wishes

Keith

>Regards,
>
>Derek


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Re: [biofuel] Converting to FFV

[Keith Addison]

>I have a 2003 Toyota Sequoia.
>
>I want to convert it to a Flex Fuel Vehicle(FFV).  Which will use the
>E85 as well as normal gasoline.
>
>I studied the diffences between the different alternative fuels and
>it appears that LPG and E85 are very close in all respects.  I
>emailed a LPG conversion company to find out if it would be possible
>to use some of the LPG components to make a FFV, they replied that
>they are able to make my vehicle LPG.
>
>I will be taking my vehicle to S Korea eventually and will make my
>own ethanol both here and there.
>
>David P. Koliadko

Hello David

You're going to make 200-proof?

Best

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] Hay All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark]

I may be able to help you with feedstock.

Mark Osborne

--- Jay Colbe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hay; My name is Jay Colbe, and I live in West Sacramento  CA. I just
> got turned on to biodiesel and have started to think of forming a
> group to plan a processing plant in the area. Anyone interested?
>  
> 
> 
> -
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 


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[biofuel] glycerine distillation

[Martin Klingensmith]

Todd, do you think a thin film evaporator could be used to distill the 
glycerine?
I just did some research of my own, and it looks like would have to keep  the 
glycerine below the flash point (176C) which means you'd need a vacuum of about 
15mmHg (that's a pretty strong vacuum I assume)

Would you still need a high volume pump if you did something like this:

--
|...

The distilled glycerine would drop out and you wouldn't need a lot of volume 
right?

-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



Appal Energy wrote:

>Pieter,
>
>I suppose you could heat it 'til it smokes and be relatively secure in the
>belief that you done sumptin' wrong. (Been that. Done there.)
>
>I couldn't tell you precisely what temperature is the cut off point to
>prevent degradation
>
>The MeOH won't evaporate until the composite liquid (alcohol and bioidesel)
>reaches ~160*F. (Sorry. It's an "American thang.") That would mean a temp
>rise of ~40*F after a settled reaction - presuming that you're using an
>insulated reactor or settling tank.
>
>I wouldn't suggest a pot still due to the fact that the alcohol has to rise
>through a thick layer of biodiesel before it can escape. A thin film
>evaporator would be more efficient, both in fuel expended and in keeping the
>temp of the biodiesel elevated for a shorter period of time.
>
>Imagine a slightly inclined, enclosed, stainless-steel, rectangular box,
>with the bottom being a "hot plate" that a thin film of biodiesel flows over
>at an adjusted rate. At the top of the box is an exhaust vent that the
>evaporated alcohol vents out of and then into a condensor.
>
>That bottom "hot plate" should actually be a chamber that is filled with a
>circulating medium - a heat exchanger - rather than a direct form of heat.
>The returning, hot, biodiesel can be used to heat the reactor and or the WVO
>in a settling tank, in order to achieve better energy efficiency.
>
>Sometimes you have to build a city to handle one product.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>  
>




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Re: [biofuel] Natural-Gas-To-Liquids using Fischer-Tropsch?

[Greg and April]

I have studied the process, but, I'm going to keep quiet for a little while, in 
hopes that someone more knowledgeable than I speaks up.

Greg H.
  - Original Message - 
  From: murdoch 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:16
  Subject: [biofuel] Natural-Gas-To-Liquids using Fischer-Tropsch?


  http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031003/daf004a_1.html

  Anyone who knows about these chemical processes have any opinions (good, bad,
  indifferent) in reading this?  I think Syntroleum started out as sort of a
  Texaco thing but I don't recall.  I do know that Texaco was looking to 
increase
  the value of their Natural Gas Assets.  Parts of this article will really 
bother
  those here, in that it ignores the many benefits of the renewable biofuels 
that
  we discuss.  But I'm also just sort of curious and interested in the claimed
  values of the fuels this plant will produce.

  Years ago I included them in our "Fuel Cell Index" because it seemed clear 
that
  they were trying to produce fuels that might be used in a fuel cell.  For
  example, they speak of their fuels being relatively hydrogen-rich.  That still
  seems to be true, though I gnash my teeth to continue including them, since
  they're so totally pro-oil/obfuscate-renewables.  I'd *love* to include a
  biofuel company that had a realistic tie-in to fuel cells.

  
  Press Release Source: Syntroleum Corporation 


  Syntroleum Dedicates Ultra-Clean Fuels Plant With Marathon and U.S. DOE
  Friday October 3, 11:00 am ET  
  Completes Construction on Plant to Produce Synthetic Diesel From Natural Gas
  Feedstock for Government Vehicle Fleet Demonstrations 


  TULSA, Okla., Oct. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Syntroleum Corporation (Nasdaq:
  SYNM - News), Marathon Oil Company and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)
  announced today the dedication of the newly constructed gas-to-liquids (GTL)
  demonstration plant at the Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma. When the 
plant
  goes on stream in early November it will employ the proprietary Syntroleum¨
  Process to produce about 70 barrels per day of ultra-clean synthetic
  transportation fuels. The fuel will be used in long-term testing and
  demonstration in vehicle fleets, such as Washington, DC metropolitan buses and
  National Park Service vehicles.

  The plant was designed and constructed under the DOE's Ultra-Clean Fuels
  program, a federal program managed by the DOE's National Energy Technology
  Laboratory to pioneer a new generation of ultra-clean transportation fuels to
  significantly reduce tailpipe emissions from cars, trucks and other heavy
  vehicles. The plant's construction and operating costs approximate $52 million
  -- of which the DOE funded $11.5 million. The remainder was funded jointly by
  Syntroleum and Marathon.

  The Ultra-Clean Fuels program will produce ultra-clean synthetic diesel and
  other fuels for a series of test programs that will be managed by Integrated
  Concepts & Research Corporation (ICRC). While the fuels will initially be 
tested
  in diesel fleets (including Washington D.C. metropolitan buses and Denali
  National Park vehicles), the U.S. Department of Defense and U.S. Department of
  Transportation have indicated interest in follow-on projects to produce fuel 
for
  demonstration in additional applications such as military, construction, rail
  locomotion, marine, etc. The fuels also have potential additional applications
  in jet engines and fuel cells. Since the fuels are dense in hydrogen and
  virtually sulfur free, they are cleaner, efficient and offer advantages for 
fuel
  cell application. Syntroleum also believes that GTL fuels offer further
  potential advantages, such as distribution through existing infrastructure, 
ease
  of containment on board the vehicle and increased safety.

  "This project has progressed rapidly and smoothly, thanks to the partnership
  with the U.S. Energy Department, close cooperation within the joint Marathon 
and
  Syntroleum development team and the professional work of the construction 
group
  from Mustang Tampa," stated Kenneth Agee, Syntroleum's Chairman and CEO. "We
  view the completion of this new plant as a real milestone that will clearly
  demonstrate the Syntroleum Process and the advantages of GTL fuels from
  environmental and commercial perspectives."

  "We are pleased to participate in the Ultra-Clean Fuels project," stated
  Clarence Cazelot, Chairman and CEO of Marathon Oil Corporation. "The products
  this plant will produce will clearly demonstrate how natural gas can be used 
as
  a premium transportation fuel with significant environmental benefits. Also, 
the
  experience we will gain will enable us to evaluate new options for future oil
  and gas developments that could integrate GTL technology."

  "The Ultra Clean Fuels project demonstrates how government and industry
  collaboration

Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Greg and April]

It is somewhat dependant on the incoming air temperature, the higher the 
incoming temp, the less fuel they have to use for a given power output. In 
general it is my understanding that they are better than conventional ICEs.

Greg H.
  - Original Message - 
  From: murdoch 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:11
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells


  Does anyone know the upper limits of energy efficiency on these turbines?  I
  know with a conventional ICE engine, a major reason for looking to fuel cells 
as
  alternatives is that ICE engines are permanently limited by Carnot Cycle
  inefficiencies.  Even though many fuel cells are not yet above 40-50%
  efficiency, their theoretical efficiencies are much higher than ICE engines.  
Is
  this also true of Microturbines?

  The HEV success stories on the page you link all appear to be very large
  vehicles (busses).  I wonder if there's a reason.

  MM

  On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:48:22 +, you wrote:

  >Hi,
  >
  >I'm really excited about these microturbines. The tubine/generator shaft is 
  >supported on air bearings. There aren't any lubricants. The things will run 
  >24/7 with minimal maintenance only needing an air filter change once a year 
  >or so. The exhaust is exceedingly clean. They will run on diesel, biodiesel, 
  >kerosene, and probably ethanol. They can also run on gaseous fuels such as 
  >natural gas, propane, LNG, and I am sure they could be adjusted for hydrogen 
  >when and if that becomes available. Which leaves me wondering WHY do we need 
  >fuel cells? Right now, we have a running technology, Hakan's ready to use 
  >technology, that apparently can do all, and more, of what is expected with a 
  >fuel cell. They can be used as the power source in a hybrid vehicle. I 
  >believe the problem with turbines in a direct drive vehicle was the 
  >difficulty of controlling accesleration and start up time. That wouldn't 
  >appear to be a problem in a hybrid that basically needs an engine running at 
  >a constant output.
  >
  >I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a house 
  >sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with 
biodiesel. 
  >Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space heat, 
  >hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.
  >
  >Do we really need to wait all of those years for a fuel cell?
  >
  >Derek
  >
  >> Hi Derek, how goes?
  >> 
  >> Thanks for the links.
  >> 
  >> >I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across
  >> >these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I
  >> >felt they make an interesting read.
  >> >
  >> >http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp
  >> >
  >> >Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either 
diesel
  >> >or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with
  >> >mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution,
  >> >maintenance, etc.
  >
  >
  >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  >
  >Biofuels list archives:
  >http://archive.nnytech.net/
  >
  >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  >[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  >
  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
  >
  >


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[biofuels-biz] Natural-Gas-To-Liquids using Fischer-Tropsch?

[murdoch]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031003/daf004a_1.html

Anyone who knows about these chemical processes have any opinions (good, bad,
indifferent) in reading this?  I think Syntroleum started out as sort of a
Texaco thing but I don't recall.  I do know that Texaco was looking to increase
the value of their Natural Gas Assets.  Parts of this article will really bother
those here, in that it ignores the many benefits of the renewable biofuels that
we discuss.  But I'm also just sort of curious and interested in the claimed
values of the fuels this plant will produce.

Years ago I included them in our "Fuel Cell Index" because it seemed clear that
they were trying to produce fuels that might be used in a fuel cell.  For
example, they speak of their fuels being relatively hydrogen-rich.  That still
seems to be true, though I gnash my teeth to continue including them, since
they're so totally pro-oil/obfuscate-renewables.  I'd *love* to include a
biofuel company that had a realistic tie-in to fuel cells.


Press Release Source: Syntroleum Corporation 


Syntroleum Dedicates Ultra-Clean Fuels Plant With Marathon and U.S. DOE
Friday October 3, 11:00 am ET  
Completes Construction on Plant to Produce Synthetic Diesel From Natural Gas
Feedstock for Government Vehicle Fleet Demonstrations 


TULSA, Okla., Oct. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Syntroleum Corporation (Nasdaq:
SYNM - News), Marathon Oil Company and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)
announced today the dedication of the newly constructed gas-to-liquids (GTL)
demonstration plant at the Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma. When the plant
goes on stream in early November it will employ the proprietary Syntroleum¨
Process to produce about 70 barrels per day of ultra-clean synthetic
transportation fuels. The fuel will be used in long-term testing and
demonstration in vehicle fleets, such as Washington, DC metropolitan buses and
National Park Service vehicles.
 
The plant was designed and constructed under the DOE's Ultra-Clean Fuels
program, a federal program managed by the DOE's National Energy Technology
Laboratory to pioneer a new generation of ultra-clean transportation fuels to
significantly reduce tailpipe emissions from cars, trucks and other heavy
vehicles. The plant's construction and operating costs approximate $52 million
-- of which the DOE funded $11.5 million. The remainder was funded jointly by
Syntroleum and Marathon.

The Ultra-Clean Fuels program will produce ultra-clean synthetic diesel and
other fuels for a series of test programs that will be managed by Integrated
Concepts & Research Corporation (ICRC). While the fuels will initially be tested
in diesel fleets (including Washington D.C. metropolitan buses and Denali
National Park vehicles), the U.S. Department of Defense and U.S. Department of
Transportation have indicated interest in follow-on projects to produce fuel for
demonstration in additional applications such as military, construction, rail
locomotion, marine, etc. The fuels also have potential additional applications
in jet engines and fuel cells. Since the fuels are dense in hydrogen and
virtually sulfur free, they are cleaner, efficient and offer advantages for fuel
cell application. Syntroleum also believes that GTL fuels offer further
potential advantages, such as distribution through existing infrastructure, ease
of containment on board the vehicle and increased safety.

"This project has progressed rapidly and smoothly, thanks to the partnership
with the U.S. Energy Department, close cooperation within the joint Marathon and
Syntroleum development team and the professional work of the construction group
from Mustang Tampa," stated Kenneth Agee, Syntroleum's Chairman and CEO. "We
view the completion of this new plant as a real milestone that will clearly
demonstrate the Syntroleum Process and the advantages of GTL fuels from
environmental and commercial perspectives."

"We are pleased to participate in the Ultra-Clean Fuels project," stated
Clarence Cazelot, Chairman and CEO of Marathon Oil Corporation. "The products
this plant will produce will clearly demonstrate how natural gas can be used as
a premium transportation fuel with significant environmental benefits. Also, the
experience we will gain will enable us to evaluate new options for future oil
and gas developments that could integrate GTL technology."

"The Ultra Clean Fuels project demonstrates how government and industry
collaboration can move new technology ahead to help meet national goals," stated
Carl Michael Smith, Assistant Secretary, Office of Fossil Energy of the DOE.
"The real world testing of these fuels will demonstrate their performance
viability and environmental advantages. With commercial application of GTL
technology, we can tap natural gas and coal reserves that are currently stranded
and sitting idle and turn them into new sources of clean fuels."

"The prospect of utilizing stranded natural gas reserves to provide a new source
of ultra-c

[biofuel] Natural-Gas-To-Liquids using Fischer-Tropsch?

[murdoch]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031003/daf004a_1.html

Anyone who knows about these chemical processes have any opinions (good, bad,
indifferent) in reading this?  I think Syntroleum started out as sort of a
Texaco thing but I don't recall.  I do know that Texaco was looking to increase
the value of their Natural Gas Assets.  Parts of this article will really bother
those here, in that it ignores the many benefits of the renewable biofuels that
we discuss.  But I'm also just sort of curious and interested in the claimed
values of the fuels this plant will produce.

Years ago I included them in our "Fuel Cell Index" because it seemed clear that
they were trying to produce fuels that might be used in a fuel cell.  For
example, they speak of their fuels being relatively hydrogen-rich.  That still
seems to be true, though I gnash my teeth to continue including them, since
they're so totally pro-oil/obfuscate-renewables.  I'd *love* to include a
biofuel company that had a realistic tie-in to fuel cells.


Press Release Source: Syntroleum Corporation 


Syntroleum Dedicates Ultra-Clean Fuels Plant With Marathon and U.S. DOE
Friday October 3, 11:00 am ET  
Completes Construction on Plant to Produce Synthetic Diesel From Natural Gas
Feedstock for Government Vehicle Fleet Demonstrations 


TULSA, Okla., Oct. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Syntroleum Corporation (Nasdaq:
SYNM - News), Marathon Oil Company and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)
announced today the dedication of the newly constructed gas-to-liquids (GTL)
demonstration plant at the Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma. When the plant
goes on stream in early November it will employ the proprietary Syntroleum¨
Process to produce about 70 barrels per day of ultra-clean synthetic
transportation fuels. The fuel will be used in long-term testing and
demonstration in vehicle fleets, such as Washington, DC metropolitan buses and
National Park Service vehicles.
 
The plant was designed and constructed under the DOE's Ultra-Clean Fuels
program, a federal program managed by the DOE's National Energy Technology
Laboratory to pioneer a new generation of ultra-clean transportation fuels to
significantly reduce tailpipe emissions from cars, trucks and other heavy
vehicles. The plant's construction and operating costs approximate $52 million
-- of which the DOE funded $11.5 million. The remainder was funded jointly by
Syntroleum and Marathon.

The Ultra-Clean Fuels program will produce ultra-clean synthetic diesel and
other fuels for a series of test programs that will be managed by Integrated
Concepts & Research Corporation (ICRC). While the fuels will initially be tested
in diesel fleets (including Washington D.C. metropolitan buses and Denali
National Park vehicles), the U.S. Department of Defense and U.S. Department of
Transportation have indicated interest in follow-on projects to produce fuel for
demonstration in additional applications such as military, construction, rail
locomotion, marine, etc. The fuels also have potential additional applications
in jet engines and fuel cells. Since the fuels are dense in hydrogen and
virtually sulfur free, they are cleaner, efficient and offer advantages for fuel
cell application. Syntroleum also believes that GTL fuels offer further
potential advantages, such as distribution through existing infrastructure, ease
of containment on board the vehicle and increased safety.

"This project has progressed rapidly and smoothly, thanks to the partnership
with the U.S. Energy Department, close cooperation within the joint Marathon and
Syntroleum development team and the professional work of the construction group
from Mustang Tampa," stated Kenneth Agee, Syntroleum's Chairman and CEO. "We
view the completion of this new plant as a real milestone that will clearly
demonstrate the Syntroleum Process and the advantages of GTL fuels from
environmental and commercial perspectives."

"We are pleased to participate in the Ultra-Clean Fuels project," stated
Clarence Cazelot, Chairman and CEO of Marathon Oil Corporation. "The products
this plant will produce will clearly demonstrate how natural gas can be used as
a premium transportation fuel with significant environmental benefits. Also, the
experience we will gain will enable us to evaluate new options for future oil
and gas developments that could integrate GTL technology."

"The Ultra Clean Fuels project demonstrates how government and industry
collaboration can move new technology ahead to help meet national goals," stated
Carl Michael Smith, Assistant Secretary, Office of Fossil Energy of the DOE.
"The real world testing of these fuels will demonstrate their performance
viability and environmental advantages. With commercial application of GTL
technology, we can tap natural gas and coal reserves that are currently stranded
and sitting idle and turn them into new sources of clean fuels."

"The prospect of utilizing stranded natural gas reserves to provide a new source
of ultra-c

Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Greg and April]

While I was in the U.S. Army, I drove the M-1, and it is powered by multi-fuel 
turbine.  Several things about the turbine stand out.   

The Good things are: 
1) Quiet, it is very quiet compared to another type of engine of comparable 
size and power.  
2) Powerful, take and disconnect the governor, and that 62 ton tank would do 65 
mph+.  
3) Compact, the engine and transmission ( automatic, no need for constant speed 
engine ) , for that large tank, take up the area of less than the size of a 
Volkswagen Bug.
4) Multi-fuel, for all practical purposes, jet turbines can use just about 
anything that can be used as fuel.  They can even be adapted to use powered 
coal.   

The Bad things include:
1) Maintenance, if a problem occurs, it is not something that can be taken care 
of by a backyard mechanic, oil changes and filter changes must be done 
religiously.  Air filters must also be kept in good shape ( I am willing to bet 
that the sand storms in Iraq, caused major problems, with the logistics, due to 
having to have the filters cleaned every so often ).  The engine is a precision 
piece of equipment, if a piece of material makes it past the filters, it could 
very well tear apart the engine if it was large enough, and turbine are more 
sensitive than other engines to debris.
2) Warm up, turbines are not start and go.  Turbines require a warm up period, 
to make sure that the oil is up to temperature and pressure.  This time can 
vary, we used to warm up between 10-15 sec. on a hot day and 1+ minutes on a 
cold day, this warm up can be ignored in an emergency, but, you risk engine 
damage. This in part is why in a combat or near combat environment, the tanks 
are not shut down unless necessary ( take on fuel, engine maintenance, done for 
the day and in a relatively secure area, and other things like that ).  If the 
engine does not have oil pressure soon after it started, the engine could very 
well fly apart, and with turbines that means chunks of hot metal going every 
everywhere, not to bad with a tank, but, with a vehicle that has thin sheet 
metal or plastic sides, it is the equivalent of a bomb, it is the same reason 
that aircraft will shut down an engine if it losses oil pressure.
3) Heat.  The biggest reason you do not currently see jet turbines on the road 
is heat.  In the 60's major American auto manufactures looked at turbines as 
the power plants for vehicles, and the one obstacle that they could not 
overcome was the high temperature of the exhaust.  Your looking at well over 
300 deg. exhaust temperature, and often much higher.  With the M-1, you did not 
want to be within 20 ft of the exhaust port, when the engine was running.  If 
you were within 10 ft you risked burns, and even as far as 30 ft it was like 
walking into an oven if you happen to get into the exhaust plume.  The metal 
grate of the exhaust port on the M-1 would be over 500 deg. F, when the tank 
was running, and you could not touch it for some time after the tank shut down 
if it had been running for more than a few minutes, we were told to give it 30 
minutes before carefully checking the temperature if we had to touch the 
exhaust covers.  I managed to get a nasty blister on my hand, when after a fast 
run, the engine was shut down for only about 5-10 min. and when I was passing 
behind the tank, I tripped and I instinctively put my hand out to catch my self 
and touched the exhaust cover.   My platoon Sgt. tells the story of an incident 
he was a part of.  It was soon after the M-1 made it to Europe and a group of 
M-1s were on their way to the range, when a car came up behind them and was 
crowding the last tank in the convoy.  The tank commander tried to motion the 
car to back away, and the driver refused.  Before to long the convoy speeded up 
and when the tank that the car was fallowing to close behind accelerated, the 
high temperature of the exhaust burnt the paint off of the hood of the car and 
cracked it's windshield.  Not good.

Greg H.


 
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 09:48
  Subject: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells


  Hi,

  I'm really excited about these microturbines. The tubine/generator shaft is 
  supported on air bearings. There aren't any lubricants. The things will run 
  24/7 with minimal maintenance only needing an air filter change once a year 
  or so. The exhaust is exceedingly clean. They will run on diesel, biodiesel, 
  kerosene, and probably ethanol. They can also run on gaseous fuels such as 
  natural gas, propane, LNG, and I am sure they could be adjusted for hydrogen 
  when and if that becomes available. Which leaves me wondering WHY do we need 
  fuel cells? Right now, we have a running technology, Hakan's ready to use 
  technology, that apparently can do all, and more, of what is expected with a 
  fuel cell. They can be used as the power source in a hybrid vehicle. I 
  believe

Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software

[Pieter Koole]

Thank you for your answer.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands

The information contained in this message (including attachments) is
confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s)
only.  If you have received this message in error please delete it and
notify the originator immediately.  The unauthorized use, disclosure,
copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be
liable for direct, special, indirect or
consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this
message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result
of any virus being passed on.


- Original Message -
From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Pieter Koole" 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:56 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software


> Hallo Pieter,
>
> Wednesday, 29 October, 2003, 17:16:42, you wrote:
>
> PK> What is ment by "spam" ?
>
> PK> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> PK> Pieter Koole
> PK> Netherlands
>
> Spam  is a processed meat product which comes in a can.  In the USA it
> is  considered  food only for the poor.  Interestingly enough in Korea
> it is a sign of wealth.
>
> At  any  rate,  on  the internet spam is the useless and annoying junk
> email which no one wants but everyone gets and everyone hates.
>
> Happy Happy,
>
> Gustl
> --
> Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
> Mitglied-Team AMIGA
> ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
> 
> The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
> soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
> without signposts.
> C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
> 
> Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen,
> da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht
> gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[Dan Maker]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> 
> I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a house 
> sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with biodiesel. 
> Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space heat, 
> hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.

They look nice, but I've been unable to find pricing information.  Have
any of you seen prices for them?

Thanks,
Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
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[biofuel] Converting to FFV

[dkoliadko]

I have a 2003 Toyota Sequoia.  

I want to convert it to a Flex Fuel Vehicle(FFV).  Which will use the 
E85 as well as normal gasoline.

I studied the diffences between the different alternative fuels and 
it appears that LPG and E85 are very close in all respects.  I 
emailed a LPG conversion company to find out if it would be possible 
to use some of the LPG components to make a FFV, they replied that 
they are able to make my vehicle LPG.

I will be taking my vehicle to S Korea eventually and will make my 
own ethanol both here and there.

David P. Koliadko



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Re: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software

[Keith Addison]

Hi Greg

People do these things, there's been quite a spate of them in the 
last month or so, with off-list complaints from list members, so it 
was worth saying in general, not aimed at you in particular. And it 
yields the added bonus of your example of good practice.

I don't suppose, though, that there is a really effective 
spam-control, probably the best you can hope for is to cut it down a 
lot, worth doing anyway. Some of the spam I get is for offers of CDs 
with hundreds of thousands or millions of email addresses that 
spammers can buy for only $20 or something. I think those folks need 
to be leaned on.

By the way, both our lists have long been set to limit access to the 
membership lists, so the lists can't be downloaded and the addresses 
sold to spammers.

This message was posted to a list moderators' list recently:

>Lately we have seen a small flurry of One Minute Members: people with
>suspicious, usually yahoo.com E-mail addresses, who join the list and
>then quit...in about a minute's time.  Obviously they're not joining to
>be members of our interest group or to participate in discussions.  We
>suspect they are joining, then going directly to the Members section to
>download the Members list, in order to harvest new targets for SPAM.
>
>Then they see that the Members list of the Group is visible to
>Moderators only, so they leave the list and move on.
>
>If this is happening to our list, it is happening to other Yahoo
>Groups which have a PUBLICLY VISIBLE Members list.

We've had a number of such one-minute members. If you suspect this 
might be happening to you at other lists, it might be worth 
suggesting that the moderator change the settings.

There's nothing to stop people from trawling email addresses out of 
the list message archives though. Hopefully it'd only be the Yahoo 
archives they'd try, which would take some perseverance.

Spam is getting serious, more than 50% of all email messages now. 
It'll ruin the Internet unless it's controlled, as some people say it 
ruined Usenet some while back. Can it be worth it? What could the 
hit-rate be for the kind of junk we all get? It must be extremely low.

Best

Keith



>Frankly, I actively manage AS, so all the groups I'm on, go on the 
>accept list ASAP, and I work it until there is no feed back, in 
>addition people who I regularly communicate with are put in the 
>address book at the same time, even before I know that they are 
>sending me something.   This is why I stopped using Earthlink 
>Anti-Spam, because, when they re-vamped it, every reply or post I 
>made to my yahoo groups, was caught up as possible spam -- every 
>single one, it's bad enough as a member, but, as a owner and 
>moderator, it was intolerable.
>
>Now if someone I don't regularly communicate with, sends me an 
>e-mail, then I want to know why they are sending it to me, and I 
>think in those cases they should know what and why I use an 
>anti-spam, if their business with me is legitimate, then they should 
>have no heart burn filling out the request to be added to my accept 
>mail list ( I know that I wouldn't if the role was reversed ).
>
>FYI, I use OE, in part because it is handy, and in part because the 
>wife isn't that computer savvy. On the other hand, I do keep 
>Norton's Anti-Virus up to date, up dating at least once a week, and 
>sometimes more if I hear about a new bug going around.
>
>Greg H.
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Keith Addison
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:06
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software
>
>
>  >Does anyone know of good ( and free if possible ) anti-spam software?
>  >
>  >Greg H.
>
>  Please note, Greg, that the type of anti-spam software that, instead,
>  generates spam, will not be smiled upon:
>
>  >> >Thank you for sending me your email. I really want to receive it.
>  >> >
>  >> >In an effort to eliminate junk email, I am using Mail Wiper.  Mail
>  >>Wiper has placed your message safely on hold.
>  >> >
>  >> >Please reply to this email and send it to me so I can add you to
>  >>my eMail address book and we will be able to communicate freely from
>  >>now on.
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >Thank you for your assistance.
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> >For 100% Junk free eMail please visit http://www.mailwiper.com
>
>  ... sent to everyone who posts a message. As with auto-replies that
>  "Albert Einstein will be out of his office for the next 3.5
>  nanoseconds", such devices are Internet-unfriendly and especially
>  mailing list unfriendly. They result in the instant removal of list
>  members - they can rejoin, they don't get banned or anything, just
>  removed as a public nuisance.
>
>  I don't know why I somehow think that someone who'd use Mail Wiper
>  and aims to add a person's address to their eMail address book is
>  probably not only using Outlook Express but is also way behind with
>  their anti-virus updates, but I do.
>
>  Best
>
>  Keith


 

Re: [biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[murdoch]

Does anyone know the upper limits of energy efficiency on these turbines?  I
know with a conventional ICE engine, a major reason for looking to fuel cells as
alternatives is that ICE engines are permanently limited by Carnot Cycle
inefficiencies.  Even though many fuel cells are not yet above 40-50%
efficiency, their theoretical efficiencies are much higher than ICE engines.  Is
this also true of Microturbines?

The HEV success stories on the page you link all appear to be very large
vehicles (busses).  I wonder if there's a reason.

MM

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:48:22 +, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm really excited about these microturbines. The tubine/generator shaft is 
>supported on air bearings. There aren't any lubricants. The things will run 
>24/7 with minimal maintenance only needing an air filter change once a year 
>or so. The exhaust is exceedingly clean. They will run on diesel, biodiesel, 
>kerosene, and probably ethanol. They can also run on gaseous fuels such as 
>natural gas, propane, LNG, and I am sure they could be adjusted for hydrogen 
>when and if that becomes available. Which leaves me wondering WHY do we need 
>fuel cells? Right now, we have a running technology, Hakan's ready to use 
>technology, that apparently can do all, and more, of what is expected with a 
>fuel cell. They can be used as the power source in a hybrid vehicle. I 
>believe the problem with turbines in a direct drive vehicle was the 
>difficulty of controlling accesleration and start up time. That wouldn't 
>appear to be a problem in a hybrid that basically needs an engine running at 
>a constant output.
>
>I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a house 
>sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with biodiesel. 
>Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space heat, 
>hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.
>
>Do we really need to wait all of those years for a fuel cell?
>
>Derek
>
>> Hi Derek, how goes?
>> 
>> Thanks for the links.
>> 
>> >I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across
>> >these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I
>> >felt they make an interesting read.
>> >
>> >http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp
>> >
>> >Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel
>> >or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with
>> >mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution,
>> >maintenance, etc.
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>


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[biofuels-biz] forest fires and using wood biomass as fuel

[murdoch]

http://www.covantaenergy.com/energy/biomass.php4

As I said a few months ago, I ran across this wood-biomass-to-electricity plant
north of Sacramento this summer and was told by one local how clean it was, and
how it allowed homeowners to have an option for clearing their land of some wood
not-suitable-for-firewood-or-building.  Later I learned that this was a few
years old, but still, it seems relatively obscure.

As Southern California and Denver and others now belatedly search for a better
forest and fire policy, what I'd love to see is not so much any one measure as a
"cure-all" but use of measures such as this in limited moderate ways, to help
communities not only do a better job with fire prevention and mitigation, but
also to generate power and make money.

other links of interest that came up:

http://www.calbiomass.org/county.htm

(San Diego, San Bernadino, Orange, Los Angeles Counties not listed!  Riverside
has only one entry.  These are the five disaster-area counties of the recent
fires.  If I'm not mistaken, San Bernadino is the single biggest county in the
US or the lower 48.  Much of it is desert, though certainly not all of it.)



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[biofuel] forest fires and using wood biomass as fuel

[murdoch]

http://www.covantaenergy.com/energy/biomass.php4

As I said a few months ago, I ran across this wood-biomass-to-electricity plant
north of Sacramento this summer and was told by one local how clean it was, and
how it allowed homeowners to have an option for clearing their land of some wood
not-suitable-for-firewood-or-building.  Later I learned that this was a few
years old, but still, it seems relatively obscure.

As Southern California and Denver and others now belatedly search for a better
forest and fire policy, what I'd love to see is not so much any one measure as a
"cure-all" but use of measures such as this in limited moderate ways, to help
communities not only do a better job with fire prevention and mitigation, but
also to generate power and make money.

other links of interest that came up:

http://www.calbiomass.org/county.htm

(San Diego, San Bernadino, Orange, Los Angeles Counties not listed!  Riverside
has only one entry.  These are the five disaster-area counties of the recent
fires.  If I'm not mistaken, San Bernadino is the single biggest county in the
US or the lower 48.  Much of it is desert, though certainly not all of it.)



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[biofuel] Microturbines vs fuel cells

[desertstallion]

Hi,

I'm really excited about these microturbines. The tubine/generator shaft is 
supported on air bearings. There aren't any lubricants. The things will run 
24/7 with minimal maintenance only needing an air filter change once a year 
or so. The exhaust is exceedingly clean. They will run on diesel, biodiesel, 
kerosene, and probably ethanol. They can also run on gaseous fuels such as 
natural gas, propane, LNG, and I am sure they could be adjusted for hydrogen 
when and if that becomes available. Which leaves me wondering WHY do we need 
fuel cells? Right now, we have a running technology, Hakan's ready to use 
technology, that apparently can do all, and more, of what is expected with a 
fuel cell. They can be used as the power source in a hybrid vehicle. I 
believe the problem with turbines in a direct drive vehicle was the 
difficulty of controlling accesleration and start up time. That wouldn't 
appear to be a problem in a hybrid that basically needs an engine running at 
a constant output.

I think they need to try and downsize the turbines to the output for a house 
sized unit. Then, put one in the house and turn it on, fueled with biodiesel. 
Turn off the power company. It can set up as a cogen, so one has space heat, 
hot water, and electricity, all at the same time.

Do we really need to wait all of those years for a fuel cell?

Derek

> Hi Derek, how goes?
> 
> Thanks for the links.
> 
> >I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across
> >these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I
> >felt they make an interesting read.
> >
> >http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp
> >
> >Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel
> >or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with
> >mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution,
> >maintenance, etc.

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Re: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software

[Greg and April]

Frankly, I actively manage AS, so all the groups I'm on, go on the accept list 
ASAP, and I work it until there is no feed back, in addition people who I 
regularly communicate with are put in the address book at the same time, even 
before I know that they are sending me something.   This is why I stopped using 
Earthlink Anti-Spam, because, when they re-vamped it, every reply or post I 
made to my yahoo groups, was caught up as possible spam -- every single one, 
it's bad enough as a member, but, as a owner and moderator, it was intolerable.

Now if someone I don't regularly communicate with, sends me an e-mail, then I 
want to know why they are sending it to me, and I think in those cases they 
should know what and why I use an anti-spam, if their business with me is 
legitimate, then they should have no heart burn filling out the request to be 
added to my accept mail list ( I know that I wouldn't if the role was reversed 
). 

FYI, I use OE, in part because it is handy, and in part because the wife isn't 
that computer savvy. On the other hand, I do keep Norton's Anti-Virus up to 
date, up dating at least once a week, and sometimes more if I hear about a new 
bug going around.

Greg H.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:06
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software


  >Does anyone know of good ( and free if possible ) anti-spam software?
  >
  >Greg H.

  Please note, Greg, that the type of anti-spam software that, instead, 
  generates spam, will not be smiled upon:

  >> >Thank you for sending me your email. I really want to receive it.
  >> >
  >> >In an effort to eliminate junk email, I am using Mail Wiper.  Mail
  >>Wiper has placed your message safely on hold.
  >> >
  >> >Please reply to this email and send it to me so I can add you to
  >>my eMail address book and we will be able to communicate freely from
  >>now on.
  >> >
  >> >
  >> >Thank you for your assistance.
  >> >
  >> >
  >> >For 100% Junk free eMail please visit http://www.mailwiper.com

  ... sent to everyone who posts a message. As with auto-replies that 
  "Albert Einstein will be out of his office for the next 3.5 
  nanoseconds", such devices are Internet-unfriendly and especially 
  mailing list unfriendly. They result in the instant removal of list 
  members - they can rejoin, they don't get banned or anything, just 
  removed as a public nuisance.

  I don't know why I somehow think that someone who'd use Mail Wiper 
  and aims to add a person's address to their eMail address book is 
  probably not only using Outlook Express but is also way behind with 
  their anti-virus updates, but I do.

  Best

  Keith


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[biofuel] Changes

[desertstallion]

Hi Keith and all the list,

> Hi Derek, how goes?
>

I'm hoping to be more active on the list again. I've had trouble accessing 
the list through my company's firewall. Things are improving. Anyway, I have 
been reading through a couple of thousand messages and catching up!!

I've been thinking of back when I first joined the list and we had a minor 
celebration when we hit 500 members. Now I see we are heading for two 
thousand. Over the relatively few years that we have been visiting together, 
I think a lot of progress has been made with biofuels. Although it can seem 
frustrating at times, I think if one looks at where we have come from, a lot 
has been accomplished.

Also in the roughly four years of the list, Keith moved from Hong Kong to 
Japan, and has lived at two locations in Japan. I moved from Saudi, to 
Beijing, China, to Spain, and back to Saudi. I'm sure many others have also 
had personal upheavals!

During the four years of the list there have been two wars fought, many would 
say with energy concerns at the root of the cause for the conflicts. We've 
used up a lot more fossil fuels. Concerns that four years ago were discussed 
such as global warming are now becoming less theory and more real with recent 
news reports about the shrinking ice caps, etc.

But, the word is getting out about biofuels. More and more people are aware 
of them. More people are using them. Their time is here and now, and more so 
every day. Other things are helping. Wind energy is fast becoming a major 
player whereas four years ago it was just getting off the ground. Hybrid 
vehicles were more or less a concept four years ago. Now, they are close to 
making a major play. I'm sure everyone will have their own examples.

But, I do kind of feel that we are swimming just ahead of the wave. Hopefully 
fast enough to keep it from crashing on us. And, hopefully it won't be a 
tsunami.

Regards,

Derek



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Re: [biofuel] Bio in a furnace??

[Dan Maker]

Paul B.Schmidt said:
> 
> Newbie here... first post
> 
> I don't have a diesel car (am thinking about it ) but do have an oil 
> furnace.  By coincidence the furnace cleaner guy is here today and I 
> asked him if you can use biodiesel in place of home heating oil, which 
> he said WAS diesel.  I thought it was a different fuel entirely, as 
> different as unleaded is to diesel or something.  His only question was 
> whether you can get the same BTU's out of biodiesel as that would throw 
> off the heating system and it pretty much wouldnt' work.  With a car you 
> can step on the gas to get more flow but a furnace is set at a certain 
> rate.
> 
> So... can you mix/ use biodiesel in a furnace?  Any thoughts on that?

There's an article in Issue #97 of Home Power Magazine about doing just
that: http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads_current_issue.cfm

Goodluck,
Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard


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Re: [biofuel] Re: The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline threatens to wreak havoc

[murdoch]

David:

If you come across any information on taxation of Biofuels in the UK, could you
related it to us, when you have the time?  I.e: how are folks dealing with the
issue there?  We heard that some cars were impounded last year because some
biofuelers were not paying any fuel taxes or something.  Yet, it sounds like the
biofuel movement there is still growing.  Any methods or efforts at taxation we
haven't heard about?  Any political creatures deciding to allow the biofuel
efforts rather than keep using tax law as a pretext for stopping the efforts?

I've been surprised that Mr. Blair hasn't done and said more on behalf of
biofuels, but maybe I've just missed it.

MM

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:05:54 -, you wrote:

>This shows only too well how our addiction to mineral based fuels is 
>leading us to environmental disaster and possibly war. Here in the UK 
>we are beginning to see some biodiesel appearing on the garage 
>forecourts, though the industry is small here compared to France or 
>Germany. UK is a small country but even here we have 1.5 million 
>acres of set aside land.and if we reduced EU farming subsidies to 
>let the real price shine through we would have even more land which 
>could in theory be used for biofuel production...But realistically, 
>how much land would be required to replace mineral fuel consumption 
>with biofuels. The Economist reckons it would take about a quarter of 
>the Earth's primary production to produce enough biofuel...but has 
>anyone seen any detailed studies on that? Have they taken into 
>account some of the vast, uncultivated lands in Russia for example?
>
>David
>
>
>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?
>story=457996
>> 
>> The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline 
>> threatens to wreak havoc
>> 
>> By Philip Thornton and Charles Arthur
>> 
>> 28 October 2003
>> 
>> It is a story of empire-building, intrigue, espionage, double-
>dealing 
>> and arm-twisting that Rudyard Kipling would have been proud to 
>write.
>> 
>> Kipling popularised the phrase "The Great Game" to describe the 
>> secret battle to dominate central Asia fought between the British 
>> Empire, Russia and France.
>> 
>> But even he would have blanched at plans by the United States - 
>with 
>> the help of the oil giant BP and British taxpayers - to establish a 
>> hegemony across an area stretching from the Russian borders to the 
>> Mediterranean Sea.
>> 
>> Inevitably, the need for oil is at the heart of the story. Two 
>former 
>> Soviet states, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, between them have oil 
>> reserves three times the size of America's. The "game" is to find 
>the 
>> safest way to get that black gold into the petrol tanks of American 
>> cars.
>> 
>> The US has been pushing for a new pipeline since Bill Clinton was 
>in 
>> office. At first, companies were reluctant, but the rising price of 
>> oil, allied to threats in the Persian Gulf and the likelihood of 
>huge 
>> reserves of oil and gas worth as much as $4 trillion under the 
>> Caspian, has made them increasingly bullish. The US Environment 
>> Department estimates that by 2010, the Caspian region could produce 
>> 3.7 million barrels per day. This could fill a large hole in world 
>> supplies as world oil demand is expected to grow from 76 million a 
>> day, in 2000, to 118.9 million by 2020.
>> 
>> By this time, the Middle Eastern members of OPEC would be looking 
>to 
>> supply half of that need.
>> 
>> The geopolictical stakes are high - the pipeline would be able to 
>> pump as much as 4.2 million barrels per year, easing the US's 
>> reliance on the unstable Gulf states for oil.
>> 
>> The answer is the world's longest export pipeline, a 1,090-mile, 
>> 42-inch wide pipe snaking its way within a 500-metre corridor from 
>> the Caspian Sea port of Baku, in Azerbaijan, to Ceyhan, in Turkey, 
>> via some of the world's most unstable and conflict-ridden nations.
>> 
>> The project will cost up to $4 billion (£2.4bn) and is being built 
>by 
>> a consortium of 11 companies led by BP. Almost three quarters of 
>the 
>> funding will come in the form of bank loans including some $600 
>> million of taxpayers' money.
>> 
>> The consortium has asked the World Bank and the European Bank for 
>> Reconstruction and Development for $300 million each in loans. In 
>> addition it has asked government agencies, including Britain's 
>Export 
>> Credit Guarantee Department (ECGD), to underwrite the risk of the 
>> project being sabotaged by civil war or terrorism.
>> 
>> On Thursday, the project receives its first public test when the 
>> International Finance Corporation, an arm of the World Bank, meets 
>to 
>> approve its loan.
>> 
>> The decision will be taken on a vote of its 173 country members, 
>> although two of the most influential are the US, with almost a 
>> quarter of the votes, and the UK, which has 5 per ce

[biofuel] Available Agricultural Land

[desertstallion]

David,

I work in Saudi Arabia. One looks around and sees nothing but emptiness for 
miles. Much of it bakes in the summer and can't support agriculture as most 
of us know it. But, here they grow lots of vegetables in reverse green 
houses. These are translucent plastic structures kind of like a quonset hut. 
They have large fans at one end sucking air out of the hut, and at the other 
end they have evaporative water panels with air entering the hut through 
them. The hut is cooled by the evaporation and roughly 50% of the light goes 
through the translucent hut structure to provide enough light for the 
vegetables to grow.

Now, what would happen if you built PV panels, or some other solar collector, 
say twenty feet off the ground, that would collect fifty percent of the 
incident sunlight for electricity, or whatever, maybe even hydrogen. And, 
underneath, one could grow crops. One could have huge expanses of solar 
energy collection, and equally huge expanses of productive crop land. The 
Sahara, the Gobi, the Empty Quarter, etc. What about water needs? With that 
amount of electricity, evaporative production from the sea should be 
feasible. And, why stop there? Every couple of hundred feet, stick a wind 
generator up into the air. There is plenty of wind in Saudi. Now one has wind 
energy, solar energy, and more solar energy in the form of crops for biofuel, 
all from the same surface area of land that currently isn't being used for 
anything other than the occasional grazing camel.

Do I expect this any time soon? Of course not. But, it is an example of how 
we could make use of a lot of land that currently isn't used at all. What 
about roof top gardens?

And, if I recall correctly, someone said once on this list that we could meet 
10% of our transportation liquid fuel needs with biofuels obtained from 
currently WASTED vegetable oil, currently dumped in landfills. That would 
remove a big chunk of the need to produce biofuels from virgin oils.

There is research on producing oil from algae. Imagine huge floating areas of 
seaweed 'crops' in the ocean for oil. You see, we don't even need to consider 
available land mass.

All of this is possible. All of this is feasible with currently available 
technology. Ready for use as Hakan would say. Mostly it is a matter of 
political will to get on with it.

Derek


> This shows only too well how our addiction to mineral based fuels is 
> leading us to environmental disaster and possibly war. Here in the UK 
> we are beginning to see some biodiesel appearing on the garage 
> forecourts, though the industry is small here compared to France or 
> Germany. UK is a small country but even here we have 1.5 million 
> acres of set aside land.and if we reduced EU farming subsidies to 
> let the real price shine through we would have even more land which 
> could in theory be used for biofuel production...But realistically, 
> how much land would be required to replace mineral fuel consumption 
> with biofuels. The Economist reckons it would take about a quarter of 
> the Earth's primary production to produce enough biofuel...but has 
> anyone seen any detailed studies on that? Have they taken into 
> account some of the vast, uncultivated lands in Russia for example?
> 
> David
>

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Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[doug foskey]

On Thursday 30 October 2003 12:13 pm, Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
> Hi Christopher
>
> I'm from the Philippines. I was interested about biodiesel that why when
> I bought my new car it was a diesel engine. I've learned producing
> biodiesel form this club and do a lot of experimentation until learn to
> produce biodiesel. I tested to my car and my motor cycle so far so good.
> I do maintenance on these motors and if found long time effect I'll
> inform the group.
>
> frank

What Motorcycle do you have? 

regards Doug

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Re: [biofuel] Political Satire

[Keith Addison]

>Buy oil, fund terroritst:
>http://www.nealskorpen.com/images/cyc_terrorists.gif
>
>Dan
>--
>Jack of all trades, master of none.
>Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
>http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard

Hm. There are so many good reasons not to "buy oil", but this sure 
isn't one of them. I wonder what a Bolivian peasant would think of 
it. Or an Ogoni woman. Or just about anyone in Iraq these days - 
"Saddam" is an increasingly popular name for new-born babes there 
now. They didn't exactly like the guy, but it seems they've been 
learning more about the lesser of two evils than about the freedom 
and democracy advertised on the label (or has Halliburton changed the 
label by now?). And the oil still fails to flow.

Anyway, I thought it was the CIA that made Bin Laden rich. Or at 
least made him a terrorist - er, freedom fighter, wasn't it, in those 
days. So why not say "Pay taxes, fund terrorist"? Or was it his links 
with the Bush family - the White House stopped the FBI investigating 
all that, didn't they, both before and after 9/11. "Cast vote, fund 
terrorist"?

"Thus the role of the oil companies in foreign policy was firmly 
underlined: they were given private privileges to enable them to be 
the paymasters of the Arab states. It was from the State department's 
point of view a neat, even brilliant solution for they could overtly 
support Israel, and covertly support the Arabs, effectively bypassing 
Congress. But it was a solution which also served greatly to increase 
the power of the oil companies, to which the government had virtually 
delegated part of its foreign policy. It was a power which they were 
not slow to exploit."
-- "The Seven Sisters", Chapter 5, "Jackpot", by Anthony Sampson.

How about this - "Join the army, support terrorist"? It's not that 
there weren't warnings a-plenty.

Best

Keith


http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,1063760,00.html
Guardian Unlimited | Special report

Iraq war has swollen ranks of al-Qaida

Richard Norton-Taylor
Thursday October 16, 2003
The Guardian

War in Iraq has swollen the ranks of al-Qaida and "galvanised its 
will" by increasing radical passions among Muslims, an authoritative 
think-tank said yesterday.

The warning, echoing earlier ones by MI5 and MI6, was made in the 
annual report of the London-based International Institute for 
Strategic Studies, The Military Balance.

It said US claims after the invasion of Iraq that al-Qaida was on the 
run, and that the "war on terror" had turned the corner, were 
"over-confident". John Chipman, the institute's director, warned that 
the full effect of the war might never be known, because of the chaos 
it had left behind.

"Whatever one may or may not find in the next six months will not be 
proof of what may or may not have been there ... There will always be 
a degree of uncertainty," he said. The report notes that, according 
to the US, more than 3,000 suspected al-Qaida operatives have been 
arrested, including the third in command, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

But it adds: "The counter-terrorism effort has also perversely 
impelled an already highly decentralised and evasive transnational 
terrorist network to become more 'virtual' and protean and, 
therefore, harder to identify and neutralise. If al-Qaida has been 
compromised since the Afghanistan intervention from an offensive 
point of view, from a defensive perspective it is better off."

Al-Qaida's great advantage, the report says, is its operational 
flexibility as a result of it not having a state to defend. The 
institute believes the network is present in more than 60 countries, 
has a rump leadership intact, and that there are more than 18,000 
potential terrorists at large, with recruitment continuing.

Al-Qaida's cells are taking measures against increasing electronic 
surveillance, operating semi-autonomously, but "maintaining links 
through field commanders to [Osama] bin Laden and his shura [council] 
who can activate networks and give operational orders".

The informal hawala banking system ensured a stream of unregulated 
cash from diaspora communities to local radical Muslim groups, as the 
investigation into five suicide bombings in Morocco in May 
demonstrated. The failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq 
will further increase al-Qaida's recruiting power, says the thinktank.

The network wants to develop its own capability to use weapons of 
mass destruction, but it probably has not yet done so. Meanwhile, it 
is likely to keep hitting soft targets directed at Americans, 
Europeans and Israelis.

The parliamentary intelligence and security committee reported last 
month that Tony Blair was warned by his intelligence chiefs on the 
eve of war that an invasion of Iraq would increase the danger of 
terrorist attacks.

It disclosed that in February, a month before the invasion, 
Whitehall's joint intelligence committee said that "al-Qaida and 
associated groups continued t

Re: [biofuel] Anti-Spam software

[doug foskey]

On Thursday 30 October 2003 09:16 am, Pieter Koole wrote:
> What is ment by "spam" ?

Spam (from Spam is all Ham) came from the 2nd WW, where the English canned 
cooked pig, where it was reputed that the only thing left of the pig after 
canning was the squeal!
Translated: Spam is junk mail, that is unsolicited. There are filters that 
look for typical content, & can be taught rules to remove offending emails. 
There are some really good free ones that run on a Linux mailserver (eg 
Spamassassin), that many Mailservers use because they often run Linux!. (For 
the uninitiated, Linux is a 'free' operating system, that comes with all 
commonly needed programs, like email, editing, WP, Graphics manipulation, 
Multimedia,,,etc etc. It is similar in operation to UNIX, but the licence 
means the software has no charge for licensing fees (although not always 
completely free, it is low cost.) The main advantage for normal users is that 
it is virtually virus free as there is no Microsoft code contained that may 
cause attacks by Virii. (Yes M$ is the main recipient of Viral attacks, 
because they are often too slow to react to repairing faults in their 
software - Open Source, on the other hand is faster because there are more 
people looking for faults as the code is often used as teaching tools in 
Universities, & by others.) For more info, search on Linux on Google.))

regards Doug (a well converted Linux user, that uses Mandrake distribution.)

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[biofuel] Re: The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline threatens to wreak havoc

[Keith Addison]

Hello David

>This shows only too well how our addiction to mineral based fuels is
>leading us to environmental disaster and possibly war. Here in the UK
>we are beginning to see some biodiesel appearing on the garage
>forecourts, though the industry is small here compared to France or
>Germany. UK is a small country but even here we have 1.5 million
>acres of set aside land.

Same in Japan, which imports ALL it's fossil-fuels.

>and if we reduced EU farming subsidies to
>let the real price shine through we would have even more land which
>could in theory be used for biofuel production...

Crops without profit
Britain is paying an extraordinary price for its agriculture
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/population/population.jsp?id=22171800

An assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture
http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/Externalities/Externsub 
headings.htm

>But realistically,
>how much land would be required to replace mineral fuel consumption
>with biofuels. The Economist reckons it would take about a quarter of
>the Earth's primary production to produce enough biofuel...but has
>anyone seen any detailed studies on that? Have they taken into
>account some of the vast, uncultivated lands in Russia for example?
>
>David

Wrong question, IMO - or rather wrong framework altogether.

First you have to ask what "enough biofuel" means - enough for what? 
To continue the addiction but smoking filters instead of plain? We 
should all take methadone instead? It's not just an addiction to 
fossil-fuels, it's an addiction to energy over-use, especially by the 
OECD countries, at everyone else's expense and the whole planet's 
(rather like their fossil-fuels-dependent industrialised form of 
agriculture), and continuing it will be ruinous no matter how benign 
the alternative drug might be. Replacing mineral fuel consumption 
with biofuels is not the answer, that'll just slap a band-aid over a 
tumour - biofuels can also be "the Devil's tears" if it's done wrong. 
It's often said here (not just by me) that a sustainable energy 
future means great reductions in energy use, great improvements in 
energy-use efficiency, and, perhaps most important, decentralisation 
of energy supply. Take these factors into account and "enough" has a 
quite different value - something more like "as little as possible" 
rather than "businesss usual". Does the war-time slogan "Is your 
journey really necessary?" still ring bells in the UK?

This question of "how much land?" is also often used to reject 
biofuels as an option altogether. (I know that's not your aim, but 
it's worth saying - not directed at you.) The inevitable answer to 
the question is "too much", so let's just forget it. But that's the 
answer to a different question: "How much energy do we use?" It also 
somehow misses the rather glaring fact that energy is not now 
provided all from one source but from many, yet this argument is used 
to reject, one at a time, biofuels, solar, wind, tides... (But not 
hydrogen! Wonder why?) So, the last bit of the sustainable energy 
puzzle to add to the three above, is that it will require as many 
different technologies as possible, all the available technologies, 
used in appropriate combination according to local circumstances.

Anyway, here are some previous answers to this question, in the archives:

How much fuel can we grow?
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

>>"what size area would be
>>required to plant a sufficient amount of crops to offset the energy
>>required for the whole growing & production process?"
>
>The answer: none.
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1801&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

Best wishes

Keith


>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?
>story=457996
> >
> > The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline
> > threatens to wreak havoc
> >
> > By Philip Thornton and Charles Arthur
> >
> > 28 October 2003




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[biofuel] Political Satire

[Dan Maker]

Buy oil, fund terroritst:
http://www.nealskorpen.com/images/cyc_terrorists.gif

Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard


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[biofuel] Re: The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline threatens to wreak havoc

[rach_3_1999]

This shows only too well how our addiction to mineral based fuels is 
leading us to environmental disaster and possibly war. Here in the UK 
we are beginning to see some biodiesel appearing on the garage 
forecourts, though the industry is small here compared to France or 
Germany. UK is a small country but even here we have 1.5 million 
acres of set aside land.and if we reduced EU farming subsidies to 
let the real price shine through we would have even more land which 
could in theory be used for biofuel production...But realistically, 
how much land would be required to replace mineral fuel consumption 
with biofuels. The Economist reckons it would take about a quarter of 
the Earth's primary production to produce enough biofuel...but has 
anyone seen any detailed studies on that? Have they taken into 
account some of the vast, uncultivated lands in Russia for example?

David


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?
story=457996
> 
> The axis of oil: how a plan for the world's biggest pipeline 
> threatens to wreak havoc
> 
> By Philip Thornton and Charles Arthur
> 
> 28 October 2003
> 
> It is a story of empire-building, intrigue, espionage, double-
dealing 
> and arm-twisting that Rudyard Kipling would have been proud to 
write.
> 
> Kipling popularised the phrase "The Great Game" to describe the 
> secret battle to dominate central Asia fought between the British 
> Empire, Russia and France.
> 
> But even he would have blanched at plans by the United States - 
with 
> the help of the oil giant BP and British taxpayers - to establish a 
> hegemony across an area stretching from the Russian borders to the 
> Mediterranean Sea.
> 
> Inevitably, the need for oil is at the heart of the story. Two 
former 
> Soviet states, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, between them have oil 
> reserves three times the size of America's. The "game" is to find 
the 
> safest way to get that black gold into the petrol tanks of American 
> cars.
> 
> The US has been pushing for a new pipeline since Bill Clinton was 
in 
> office. At first, companies were reluctant, but the rising price of 
> oil, allied to threats in the Persian Gulf and the likelihood of 
huge 
> reserves of oil and gas worth as much as $4 trillion under the 
> Caspian, has made them increasingly bullish. The US Environment 
> Department estimates that by 2010, the Caspian region could produce 
> 3.7 million barrels per day. This could fill a large hole in world 
> supplies as world oil demand is expected to grow from 76 million a 
> day, in 2000, to 118.9 million by 2020.
> 
> By this time, the Middle Eastern members of OPEC would be looking 
to 
> supply half of that need.
> 
> The geopolictical stakes are high - the pipeline would be able to 
> pump as much as 4.2 million barrels per year, easing the US's 
> reliance on the unstable Gulf states for oil.
> 
> The answer is the world's longest export pipeline, a 1,090-mile, 
> 42-inch wide pipe snaking its way within a 500-metre corridor from 
> the Caspian Sea port of Baku, in Azerbaijan, to Ceyhan, in Turkey, 
> via some of the world's most unstable and conflict-ridden nations.
> 
> The project will cost up to $4 billion (£2.4bn) and is being built 
by 
> a consortium of 11 companies led by BP. Almost three quarters of 
the 
> funding will come in the form of bank loans including some $600 
> million of taxpayers' money.
> 
> The consortium has asked the World Bank and the European Bank for 
> Reconstruction and Development for $300 million each in loans. In 
> addition it has asked government agencies, including Britain's 
Export 
> Credit Guarantee Department (ECGD), to underwrite the risk of the 
> project being sabotaged by civil war or terrorism.
> 
> On Thursday, the project receives its first public test when the 
> International Finance Corporation, an arm of the World Bank, meets 
to 
> approve its loan.
> 
> The decision will be taken on a vote of its 173 country members, 
> although two of the most influential are the US, with almost a 
> quarter of the votes, and the UK, which has 5 per cent of the 
voting 
> power.
> 
> Opponents say if the pipeline is built it will wreak environmental, 
> social and economic havoc along its length.
> 
> The Baku Ceyhan Campaign (BCC), which includes Friends of the Earth 
> and the Kurdish Human Rights Project, last week lobbied Hilary 
Benn, 
> the international development secretary, to vote against it at the 
> IFC.
> 
> It handed over a 220-page dossier earlier this month claiming the 
> pipeline would break public lending guidelines on 173 counts.
> 
> The Department for International Development steadfastly refused to 
> comment until after the vote, but the opponents are more than happy 
> to fill the vacuum.
> 
> They say the environmental threat is two-fold - what happens if the 
> pipeline goes wrong and the destruction it would wreak even if it 
> goes