Re: [Biofuel] H2 Fuel Cell Efficiencies (was Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis)

[robert and benita rabello]

Darryl McMahon wrote:

>Kirk,
>those efficiency numbers look like the DOE short term targets from when 
>I was researching my book.  I see they are still counting waste heat as 
>part of the efficiency (CHP).
>  
>

Sorry to butt in Darryl, but that seems to be part of the sales 
presentation, right?  Efficiency depends on what we're counting.  The 
numbers for the PEM cells (of which I am most familiar) might be a bit 
high, but don't seem unreasonable.

>Do you know of someone actually selling units with these efficiencies 
>(validated by third parties and guaranteed to clients by vendors) in the 
>commercial market?
>  
>

Even if a company WAS selling one of these things, they certainly 
wouldn't sell one to you or me!!!  (The same is true of commercial 
electrolyzers.)

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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[Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Wes Moore]

Keith and Doug:
Some of the points you both have expressed I consider corrections to my
thinking. And it is appreciated. Re the car jack and lever/bate example I
had overlooked the distance of moving 2 tons . I am convinced but not
totally satisfied.  I have been through this example before. My mind keeps
reverting back to when I jacked up the 2 storey shed/workshop.  It still
amazes me that I was able to lift that thing with a bait . sure seemed an
efficient use of my breakfast that day! I still wonder how many calories
would have been consumed if I was able to lift it the old fashioned way. I
think I could have lifted this thing perhaps 100 xs with the bait before I
needed to refill at lunch time. 
 
I also compare the energy it takes to push a child on a swing. If the timing
is right a little energy input from the 'pusher' goes a long way.  This
example has been used by some researchers.. if you could get the timing
right and pulse the electricity in a harmonized way you can use motive force
to your advantage. There are at least 2 examples of motor controllers that
show an increased efficiency and run noticeably cooler to touch when using a
solid state controller with a given load. If it is the mechanism I described
here I suppose the effect would be lost at full load if the motor was sized
and designed properly. Still in reality a saving is shown in the real world.
A local college professor once said 'we sometimes make things work in the
lab that won't work in theory"
So in short, while I share your disappointment in many of the offerings, I
anticipate breakthrough anytime now. There are probably some cons out there
but I should like to think most inventors are trying hard and honest. 
I hope, Keith, if you have time for just one video you will be able to watch
this one where ten wind up flashlights are able to be lit with the energy it
takes to light one. This is obviously not meant for anything more than a
demonstration, but I think it will lead to more. I am sure there are plenty
of folks at this site who would be very capable of furthering this.
http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Un
iversal_oscillator-generator.wmv 
 
Regarding the EBM overunity motor posted at Keelynet. Sorry I did not post
their website
Here it is
http://www.gammamanager.com/ 
one of the links commenting said they have not in fact achieved enough
energy to be self running, but it did not indicate a date.  The company's
certified engineering data states a 24.9 KW input is delivering 32.29 KW
output produced as heat, obviously this is not what we are looking for. The
second test shows a 101.8 KW unit is putting out 108.6 KW as electrical
energy and heat.  This is impressive but still a little disappointing, I
hope they can improve on this.  This data was published in Aug of this year.
Wes
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hello Wes
 
>Hi Keith
>
>At the referenced website there are videos in operation. 
>Unfortunately you have to copy paste to access the video links. I 
>know that you must go through a ton of info daily so I will attempt 
>to provide a few direct links here:
 
Thanks, but the ton of info usually passes me by these days, very 
little time to spare for keyboards, and, sad to say, I have trouble 
accessing video online. But I'll try...
 
>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-4)_Mechanical_hammer.wmv
>
>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-5)_Laboratory_pump.wmv
>
>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv
>
>Apparently Milkovic has done public demonstrations of the water pump 
>as seen in the pictures at the main page
>
>http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm
>
>In this concept a person would be able to swing the pendulum every 
>once in a while to maintain a constant water flow. He claims that 
>one pendulum swing oscillates for about 130 xs.  Putting a load on 
>the pump end seems to have little effect on the oscillation although 
>it must have a dampening effect on the energy transferred to the 
>lever action.
 
Yes, but as the guy said, a neat little device but not free energy.
 
>The "dangling magnets" does not quite describe the proposed 
>application. It was postulated that 2 stationary magnets placed at 
>the proximity of the extreme ends of the oscillation with like 
>magnets mounted on the pendulum would force the motion.  In my 
>opinion however I think this would dampen the swing. I think 
>opposing magnets would draw the swing and if they are positioned so 
>they can not make contact would release at the end of the swing. 
>Barring this, I suppose solenoids with a trip switch may be 
>effective.
>
>The beauty of this is that anyone can replicate a toy to experiment 
>with these concepts due to its simplicity.
>
>Regarding other over unity devices:
>
>Keelynet posted this link:
 
:-)
 
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU from 

[Biofuel] [Fwd: David Hughes and the Writing on the Wall]

[Darryl McMahon]

 From another list.  I thought it was worth sharing.
Darryl

 Original Message 

*It is a very difficult thing to create a narrative that can go straight
to the heart of our manifest energy and emission problems in an way that
is accessible to most.  This interview however comes as close as
anything that I have seen in a good long while.  *
**
*Mr. Hughes is a senior analyst for the Canadian Geological Survey, a
member of the Canadian Gas Potential Committee and employed by the
Ministry of Natural Resources.  He has been dealing with energy for the
whole of his 31 year career and is exceptionally well qualified to tell
us the following things: *
*A) What production **levels we have achieved over the last few decades
with natural gas, oil and coal.  *
*B) What reserves are still available to be exploited.  *
*C) At what rate we are likely to be able to exploit these reserves. *
*D) What this will mean in terms of energy availability to the people in
North America who rely daily on energy supplies. (i.e. over 99% of us)*

*In this wide ranging interview with Julian Darley of the Post Carbon
Institute Mr. Hughes discusses the reserve and production
scenarios of natural gas, oil and coal.  * *His focus is primarily on
the North American and Canadian scene though he does also touch on how
the global energy situation is unfolding.  *
**
*Of the very many important facts that he cites the following are I
think key.*
**
*1) In the lower 48 the U.S. has passed peak coal production and has
been importing coal for the last few years in order to meet domestic
demand.  *
**
*As with any essential resource peak production will inevitably lead to
a price spike and result in a period of frenzied exploitation.  And
while this will create a short-term plateau or at least mitigate the
rate of decline nonetheless the writing is now on the wall for U.S. coal
as it is for global oil production and North American gas production.  *
**
*2) Canada has peaked in terms of natural gas production.  The price
spike of 2001 did lead to a record number of drillings (14,000) but this
has not increased production.  It has however enabled the production
decline rate to be mitigated.*
**
*3) The U.S. has also peaked in terms of natural gas production.*
**
*4) North America will be facing natural gas shortfalls in the near
term. (within 5 years, maybe sooner)  To put not to fine a point on it
we heat over 90% of our homes with natural gas. Yes our winters are
getting warmer still.. *
**
*5) As we go down the energy food chain the energy return on the energy
invested also goes down.  Ghawar and its like were able to return 100
units of energy for every one invested.  Off shore fields like the North
Sea are good for about a 17 to 1 return.  The tar sands according to Mr.
Hughes 2:1.  (He likens the use of natural gas to create syncrude as
equivalent to "Turning gold to lead.") *
**
*These facts are well known inside the energy industry.  What however is
not acknowledged and has so far at least been wholly under appreciated
is the following.*
**
*6) The green house gas implications of #5 are absolutely immense! *
**
*This means that if we use all of our considerable ingenuity and the
immense wealth that we currently have to keep doing what we are
doing then the next decade will see our GHG's be far higher than they
are today. *
**
*In a very fundamental way we as a society misinterpreted the march of
progress.  We misunderstood why we were getting wealthier and more
comfortable.  (Or at least many of us were)  Our belief in human
ingenuity and inventiveness and the limitless future that this seemed
to entail blinded us to the following central facts.  The true coin of
the realm on this particular planet is energy and the flip side of this
coin and the central limiting factor for all mammalian life on this
planet is emissions.  *
**
*Understanding the central nature of energy and emissions to our wealth
and health must be the next great mental and social evolution for
humankind.  For it is they and not monetarism, not corporatism, not
entrepreneurialism and most certainly not capital gains tax cuts that
will secure us unto the seventh generation and hopefully beyond.  *
**
*The following link will take you to Mr. Hughes' interview with Mr. Darley.*
**

*http://tinyurl. com/yj57d7 *

&/or



Note: This content may require the latest RealPlayer, which is not
available on Windows 95, Mac OS9 or Linux systems.


-- 
Darryl McMahon
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

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[Biofuel] H2 Fuel Cell Efficiencies (was Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis)

[Darryl McMahon]

Kirk,
those efficiency numbers look like the DOE short term targets from when 
I was researching my book.  I see they are still counting waste heat as 
part of the efficiency (CHP).

Do you know of someone actually selling units with these efficiencies 
(validated by third parties and guaranteed to clients by vendors) in the 
commercial market?

The disadvantages make interesting reading though, don't they?

Darryl

Kirk McLoren wrote:
>*
> Comparison of Fuel Cell Technologies
> *
> * Fuel Cell Type *
>   * *
> * Common *
> * *
> * Electrolyte *
>   * *
> * Operating Temperature *
>   * *
> * System Output *
>   * *
> * Efficiency *
>   * *
> * Applications *
>   * *
> * Advantages *
>   * *
> * Disadvantages *
> Polymer Electrolyte Membrane (PEM)*
>   
> Solid organic polymer poly-perfluorosulfonic acid
>   
> 50 - 100°C
> 122 - 212°F
>   
> <1kW – 250kW
>   
> 50-60% electric
>   
>  
> • Back-up power
> • Portable power
> • Small distributed generation
> • Transportation
>   
>  
>  
> • Solid electrolyte reduces corrosion & electrolyte management problems
> • Low temperature
> • Quick start-up
>   
>  
>  
> • Requires expensive catalysts
> • High sensitivity to fuel impurities
> • Low temperature waste heat
> Alkaline (AFC)
>   
> Aqueous solution of potassium hydroxide soaked in a matrix
>   
> 90 - 100°C
> 194 - 212°F
>   
> 10kW – 100kW
>   
> 60-70% electric
>   
>  
> • Military
> • Space
>   
>  
>  
> • Cathode reaction faster in alkaline electrolyte so high performance
>   
>  
>  
> • Expensive removal of CO_2 from fuel and air streams required
> Phosphoric Acid (PAFC)
>   
> Liquid phosphoric acid soaked in a matrix
>   
> 150 - 200°C
> 302 - 392°F
>   
> 50kW – 1MW
> (250kW module typical)
>   
> 80 to 85% overall with combined heat and power (CHP
> (36-42% electric)
>   
>  
> • Distributed generation
>   
>  
>  
> • High efficiency
> • Increased tolerance to impurities in hydrogen
> • Suitable for CHP
>   
>  
>  
> • Requires platinum catalysts
> • Low current and power
> • Large size/weight
> Molten Carbonate (MCFC)
>   
> Liquid solution of lithium, sodium, and/or potassium carbonates, soaked 
> in a matrix
>   
> 600 - 700°C
> 1112 - 1292°F
>   
> <1kW – 1MW
> (250kW module typical)
>   
> 85% overall with CHP
> (60% electric)
>   
>  
> • Electric utility
> • Large distributed generation
>   
>  
>  
> • High efficiency
> • Fuel flexibility
> • Can use a variety of catalysts
> • Suitable for CHP
>   
>  
>  
> • High temperature speeds corrosion and breakdown of cell components
> • Complex electrolyte management
> • Slow start-up
> Solid Oxide (SOFC)
>   
> Solid zirconium oxide to which a small amount of yttira is added
>   
> 650 - 1000°C
> 1202 - 1832°F
>   
> 5kW – 3MW
>   
> 85% overall with CHP
> (60% electric)
>   
>  
> • Auxiliary power
> • Electric utility
> • Large distributed generation
>   
>  
>  
> • High efficiency
> • Fuel flexibility
> • Can use a variety of catalysts
> • Solid electrolyte reduces electrolyte management problems
> • Suitable for CHP
>   
>  
>  
> • High temperature enhances corrosion and breakdown of cell components
> • Slow start-up
> 
> 
> 
> */http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html/*
> *//* 
> */pdf link at bottom of page/*
> *//* 
> */Kirk/*
> *//* 
> *//* 
> *//* 
> */Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now.
> 
> Really? Where?
> 


-- 
Darryl McMahon
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary

[Frank Navarrete]

Hello D,
This read is very troubling to a parent.  I found this link

http://whale.to/v/rapp.html

which I followed from the post to be very convincing.  I'm not sure if
I will allow any more vaccines to be given to my family.



Thanks.


On 1/7/07, D. Mindock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think it is interesting that mercury is number two in
> toxicity. Uranium is number one and that's being spread
> all over Iraq via DU (depleted uranium) weapons. Wind
> currents are spreading it over vast reaches of the planet.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary
> Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:07 pm (PST)
> I ["kayedoe1" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] am cross posting this important
> information (with permission of the authors) for anyone that is interested
> in this topic.
> [From Beck-n-Stuff Yahoo group]
>
>
> Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary.
> (c) Dr Leo Rebello & Jagannath Chatterjee ,
> (Published in Medical Journal "Homoeo a' fair", December 2006)
> Presented personally to Swami Ramdevji on 01.01.2007
>
> Since the time they were introduced around 200 years ago vaccines
> have been credited to be a medical marvel, having stopped killer
> acute diseases on their tracks and providing hopes of similarly
> tackling other diseases like AIDS, and also chronic autoimmune
> disorders like cancer, diabetes, even ending obesity and the nicotine
> habit.
>
> Emergence of autism fuels discontent.
> But below all this hope, hype and activity opposition and discontent
> is brewing. The process of vaccine manufacture, and the nature of
> vaccine ingredients have always been a closely guarded secret.
> However an outbreak of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) in American
> children, up from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 166 today, an increase that
> coincides with the increase in number of childhood vaccinations since
> 1978, focused attention on vaccines with the parents claiming that
> they watched their children regress after they got the shots.
>
> Children with ASD, a condition yet to be fully understood, usually
> demonstrate deficits in social interaction, verbal and nonverbal
> communication, and display repetitive behaviors or interests. They
> may suffer from delayed development and be afflicted by severe bowel
> disorders. Clinically it is attributed to a neuron disorder and
> blamed on the genes, the gut problems being generally ignored.
> Critics say it is the largest iatrogenic (medicine induced) epidemic
> in human history.
>
> Mercury poisoning via vaccines.
> The cries against vaccines became more vocal as autism was found to
> be very similar to symptoms of mercury poisoning. Vaccine whistle
> blowers have revealed that Thimerosal, a vaccine decontaminant used
> in multi dose vials to prevent fungal and bacterial growth, is 49.56%
> mercury by weight and it is being used since 1930. The first autism
> cases were detected in 1931. Earlier too a syndrome called "Pink
> Disease" was seen in children treated with Calomel, a mercury based
> compound. Calomel was banned when the link was known.
>
> It takes simple mathematics to find out that by the time the children
> take all the shots, which have increased considerably over the last
> three decades, the mercury in their body is much above the EPA
> approved limit in food of 0.1mcg per kg of body weight in adults,
> ingested, not injected. A mercury laced vaccine contains 15 to 50mcg
> of mercury per shot.
>
> The mercury content in children's bodies has gone up to 250 times the
> EPA limit as a result of the vaccines and that too injected directly
> into their blood stream bypassing the body's natural defences. If we
> consider the FDA limit of mercury in water the children are being
> subjected to 50,000 times the limit. Mercury is a dangerous
> neurotoxin, second only to Uranium, and accumulates in fat cells of
> the brain, organs and tissues destroying the nerves therein. It has
> been found to be toxic even in ppm doses.
>
> Vaccines also contain aluminum, used to excite the immune system of
> the body, and which considerably boosts the toxicity of mercury. When
> injected into children the mixture readily overpowers their nervous
> system to cause severe brain, neurological and allied damage.
>
> Vaccines have caused a trail of autism and other damage wherever they
> have been implemented. China has reported an autistic population of
> 18 lakhs after vaccines were allowed into the country in 1990. The
> parents of vaccine damaged children have staged protests in the
> infamous Tiannemann Square in Beijing after which they were forcibly
> dragged away and imprisoned.
>
> How vaccines affect children.
> Some children are more susceptible to mercury as their body does not
> produce enough glutathione, an agent that helps in disposing off the
> mercury and other neurotoxins in the body. These children develop
> full scale autism while the other children are affected with various
> other disorders. It is observed that sick, underweight, malnourished
> a

Re: [Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Frank Navarrete]

Perhaps not over-unit, the pendulum does seem to reduce input energy
by its very nature, and in the case of pumps or any device why not
take mechanical advantage of it?  Lots of watches run indefinitely on
the simple motions of the wearers hand encouraging a pendulum.  I
think there's room for its use elsewhere where it isn't being used.

On 1/7/07, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hope springs eternal, as indeed it should, but in a field where there
> is no case that has not proved to be a scam hope is best leavened
> with due scepticism.
>
> Posted several times before:
>
> >Eric Krieg lists 78 free energy scams here, doesn't seem to get into
> >the zero-point stuff and instant cold fusion, so there's all that
> >besides:
> >http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html
> >Eric's history of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines
> >
> >Plus:
> >How to become a Free Energy con man
> >http://www.phact.org/e/con_man.htm
> >
> >And:
> >The Museum of Unworkable Devices
> >http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> > >Frank, I think the link shows some experiment of him attempting to apply 
> > >the
> > >use in a go cart, I didn't understand what he was trying to do.
> > >The most interesting concept to me might be to configure it with a magnet
> > >and coil similar to the induction flashlights that work by shaking (sliding
> > >a magnet back and forth through a coil).
> > >Somewhere in the link you will also see the idea to attach magnets at 
> > >either
> > >end of the pendulum swing. This or electro magnets should keep the unit in
> > >motion indefinitely.
> > >All in all I think the most beautiful part of this invention is a water 
> > >pump
> > >for developing nation's farmers.
> > >http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm
> >
> >http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/pendpump.htm
> >The water hand-pump with pendulum of Veljko Milkovic
> >
> >It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples
> >that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any
> >over-unity, do you know of any such examples?
> >
> >Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated
> >examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity
> >device working?
> >
> >I think this about sums it up:
> >
> > >"I did look at several sites describing the "pendulum of Veljko
> > >Milkovic". It seems like a neat little device and it does provide
> > >for hands-free operation because the human force is stored in the
> > >pendulum swing so that the pump continues to pump for awhile after
> > >the push.
> > >
> > >The machine is not a free energy device. All the energy for the pump
> > >comes from the person pushing the pendulum. If it were really
> > >overunity (one claim was 9 times as much energy out as in), it would
> > >be easy to set it up to pump forever.
> > >
> > >Its a neat little invention. It is not free energy. It is not
> > >perpetual motion. It is not over-unity. It is a cool hand pump.
> > >There are many hand pumps of many designs available. Show me one
> > >that pumps without input energy from a person or other source and
> > >then we will have "free energy".
> >
> >http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=35461#Item_6
> >
> >I doubt dangling magnets off it will help much.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
> > >Wes
> > >
> > >Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:04 -0500
> > >From: "Frank Navarrete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Castor oil as a therapy
> > >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >Message-ID:
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
> > >
> > >Hi Wes,
> > >Interesting link to Milkovic's work.  I wonder if you could apply
> > >added pendulum energy to a bicycle, and have a sort of long-distance
> > >low-effort gear.
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
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>
>

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Re: [Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Keith Addison]

Hello Wes

>Hi Keith
>
>At the referenced website there are videos in operation. 
>Unfortunately you have to copy paste to access the video links. I 
>know that you must go through a ton of info daily so I will attempt 
>to provide a few direct links here:

Thanks, but the ton of info usually passes me by these days, very 
little time to spare for keyboards, and, sad to say, I have trouble 
accessing video online. But I'll try...

>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-4)_Mechanical_hammer.wmv
>
>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-5)_Laboratory_pump.wmv
>
>http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(vide 
>o-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv
>
>Apparently Milkovic has done public demonstrations of the water pump 
>as seen in the pictures at the main page
>
>http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm
>
>In this concept a person would be able to swing the pendulum every 
>once in a while to maintain a constant water flow. He claims that 
>one pendulum swing oscillates for about 130 xs.  Putting a load on 
>the pump end seems to have little effect on the oscillation although 
>it must have a dampening effect on the energy transferred to the 
>lever action.

Yes, but as the guy said, a neat little device but not free energy.

>The "dangling magnets" does not quite describe the proposed 
>application. It was postulated that 2 stationary magnets placed at 
>the proximity of the extreme ends of the oscillation with like 
>magnets mounted on the pendulum would force the motion.  In my 
>opinion however I think this would dampen the swing. I think 
>opposing magnets would draw the swing and if they are positioned so 
>they can not make contact would release at the end of the swing. 
>Barring this, I suppose solenoids with a trip switch may be 
>effective.
>
>The beauty of this is that anyone can replicate a toy to experiment 
>with these concepts due to its simplicity.
>
>Regarding other over unity devices:
>
>Keelynet posted this link:

:-)

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU from Budapest.  They 
>claim a coordinated effort from labs in Toronto and  London.  It 
>achieves 1.4 over unity according to the claim.  I am hoping this is 
>true and that it does not get utilized by energy companies without 
>passing the savings on to the consumer. This might be similar in 
>concept to the 1.2 over unity that Mitsubishi was speaking of a few 
>years back.

Were they? Got a link?

Anyway...

>Hope this helps

Well, in other words...

>It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples
>that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any
>over-unity, do you know of any such examples?
>
>Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated
>examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity
>device working?

... the answer's no.

>Wes
>
>N.B. over unity and free energy are not the same. While the energy 
>to pump the lever is not considered free energy it can be considered 
>over unity just as a person with a car jack can use perhaps 20 lbs 
>of force to lift a 2 ton car.

I don't think that's a valid comparison.

>I agree with being skeptical. However, it would not be surprising to 
>me if energy interests use a portion of their might to discredit 
>anything deemed to threaten the profit line.

Indeed it wouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand that is 
invariably a part of the alleged conspiracy that thwarts alleged free 
energy devices.

I'll stick with the scepticism thanks.

The list has looked at dozens of these claims by now, all hogwash. Sad to say.

Free energy and over-unity devices usually elicit a polarised 
response with sceptics on one side and true believers on the other, 
and both sides tend to be dogged about it. I think there quite 
possibly is such a thing waiting to be discovered and I'm certainly 
not against people seeking it. But the main lesson learnt so far is 
that there's definitely a need for scepticism and a rigorous 
approach. That won't faze a genuine breakthrough, if ever. Right now 
it's just pie in the sky.

Best

Keith


>http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm
>
>http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/pendpump.htm
>The water hand-pump with pendulum of Veljko Milkovic
>
>Keith wrote:
>
>It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples
>that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any
>over-unity, do you know of any such examples?
>
>Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated
>examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity
>device working?
>
>I think this about sums it up:
>
> >"I did look at several sites describing the "pendulum of Veljko
> >Milkovic". It seems like a neat little device and it does provide
> >for hands-free operation because the human force is stored in the
> >pendulum swing so that the pump continues to pump for awhile

[Biofuel] a different holiday

[Jesse Frayne]

Okay, you pleasure seekers... Check out this guy. 
(Dang, I hope that's biofuel he's  burning...) 

http://www.jet-man.com/actuel_eng.html

scroll down and play the video.
Jesse


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Re: [Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[doug swanson]

Wes Moore wrote:

> Hi Keith
>


> N.B. over unity and free energy are not the same. While the energy to 
> pump the lever is not considered free energy it can be considered over 
> unity just as a person with a car jack can use perhaps 20 lbs of force 
> to lift a 2 ton car. I agree with being skeptical. However, it would 
> not be surprising to me if energy interests use a portion of their 
> might to discredit anything deemed to threaten the profit line. 
>
As I see it, a car jack is far from overunity, the kinetic energy you 
put into a jack, (hydraulic for example) requires a lot of repetitions 
of the one action, which will lift a car a small distance.  This gives 
the car potential energy, (mass, gravity)  It is the same with lifting 
with a lever, or a block and tackle.  the distance you move to effect a 
movement in a heavy mass will increase proportionately with the ratio of 
lever length, or number of pulleys in the machine that is being used to 
convert your work.

doug

-- 

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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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[Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Wes Moore]

Hi Keith

At the referenced website there are videos in operation.  Unfortunately you
have to copy paste to access the video links. I know that you must go
through a ton of info daily so I will attempt to provide a few direct links
here:

 

http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-4)_Me
chanical_hammer.wmv 

 

http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-5)_La
boratory_pump.wmv 

 

http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Un
iversal_oscillator-generator.wmv 

 

Apparently Milkovic has done public demonstrations of the water pump as seen
in the pictures at the main page 

http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm 

In this concept a person would be able to swing the pendulum every once in a
while to maintain a constant water flow. He claims that one pendulum swing
oscillates for about 130 xs.  Putting a load on the pump end seems to have
little effect on the oscillation although it must have a dampening effect on
the energy transferred to the lever action.

 

The "dangling magnets" does not quite describe the proposed application. It
was postulated that 2 stationary magnets placed at the proximity of the
extreme ends of the oscillation with like magnets mounted on the pendulum
would force the motion.  In my opinion however I think this would dampen the
swing. I think opposing magnets would draw the swing and if they are
positioned so they can not make contact would release at the end of the
swing. Barring this, I suppose solenoids with a trip switch may be
effective.

The beauty of this is that anyone can replicate a toy to experiment with
these concepts due to its simplicity.

Regarding other over unity devices:

Keelynet posted this link: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU from Budapest.  They claim a
coordinated effort from labs in Toronto and  London.  It achieves 1.4 over
unity according to the claim.  I am hoping this is true and that it does not
get utilized by energy companies without passing the savings on to the
consumer. This might be similar in concept to the 1.2 over unity that
Mitsubishi was speaking of a few years back.

Hope this helps

Wes

N.B. over unity and free energy are not the same. While the energy to pump
the lever is not considered free energy it can be considered over unity just
as a person with a car jack can use perhaps 20 lbs of force to lift a 2 ton
car. I agree with being skeptical. However, it would not be surprising to me
if energy interests use a portion of their might to discredit anything
deemed to threaten the profit line.  

 

 

>http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm

 

http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/pendpump.htm

The water hand-pump with pendulum of Veljko Milkovic

 

Keith wrote:

It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples 

that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any 

over-unity, do you know of any such examples?

 

Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated 

examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity 

device working?

 

I think this about sums it up:

 

>"I did look at several sites describing the "pendulum of Veljko 

>Milkovic". It seems like a neat little device and it does provide 

>for hands-free operation because the human force is stored in the 

>pendulum swing so that the pump continues to pump for awhile after 

>the push.

>

>The machine is not a free energy device. All the energy for the pump 

>comes from the person pushing the pendulum. If it were really 

>overunity (one claim was 9 times as much energy out as in), it would 

>be easy to set it up to pump forever.

>

>Its a neat little invention. It is not free energy. It is not 

>perpetual motion. It is not over-unity. It is a cool hand pump. 

>There are many hand pumps of many designs available. Show me one 

>that pumps without input energy from a person or other source and 

>then we will have "free energy".

 

http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=35461#Item_6

 

I doubt dangling magnets off it will help much.

 

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Re: [Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Keith Addison]

Hope springs eternal, as indeed it should, but in a field where there 
is no case that has not proved to be a scam hope is best leavened 
with due scepticism.

Posted several times before:

>Eric Krieg lists 78 free energy scams here, doesn't seem to get into 
>the zero-point stuff and instant cold fusion, so there's all that 
>besides:
>http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html
>Eric's history of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines
>
>Plus:
>How to become a Free Energy con man
>http://www.phact.org/e/con_man.htm
>
>And:
>The Museum of Unworkable Devices
>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Best

Keith



> >Frank, I think the link shows some experiment of him attempting to apply the
> >use in a go cart, I didn't understand what he was trying to do.
> >The most interesting concept to me might be to configure it with a magnet
> >and coil similar to the induction flashlights that work by shaking (sliding
> >a magnet back and forth through a coil).
> >Somewhere in the link you will also see the idea to attach magnets at either
> >end of the pendulum swing. This or electro magnets should keep the unit in
> >motion indefinitely.
> >All in all I think the most beautiful part of this invention is a water pump
> >for developing nation's farmers.
> >http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm
>
>http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/pendpump.htm
>The water hand-pump with pendulum of Veljko Milkovic
>
>It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples
>that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any
>over-unity, do you know of any such examples?
>
>Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated
>examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity
>device working?
>
>I think this about sums it up:
>
> >"I did look at several sites describing the "pendulum of Veljko
> >Milkovic". It seems like a neat little device and it does provide
> >for hands-free operation because the human force is stored in the
> >pendulum swing so that the pump continues to pump for awhile after
> >the push.
> >
> >The machine is not a free energy device. All the energy for the pump
> >comes from the person pushing the pendulum. If it were really
> >overunity (one claim was 9 times as much energy out as in), it would
> >be easy to set it up to pump forever.
> >
> >Its a neat little invention. It is not free energy. It is not
> >perpetual motion. It is not over-unity. It is a cool hand pump.
> >There are many hand pumps of many designs available. Show me one
> >that pumps without input energy from a person or other source and
> >then we will have "free energy".
>
>http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=35461#Item_6
>
>I doubt dangling magnets off it will help much.
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
> >Wes
> >
> >Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:04 -0500
> >From: "Frank Navarrete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Castor oil as a therapy
> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Message-ID:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
> >
> >Hi Wes,
> >Interesting link to Milkovic's work.  I wonder if you could apply
> >added pendulum energy to a bicycle, and have a sort of long-distance
> >low-effort gear.


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Re: [Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Keith Addison]

>Frank, I think the link shows some experiment of him attempting to apply the
>use in a go cart, I didn't understand what he was trying to do.
>The most interesting concept to me might be to configure it with a magnet
>and coil similar to the induction flashlights that work by shaking (sliding
>a magnet back and forth through a coil).
>Somewhere in the link you will also see the idea to attach magnets at either
>end of the pendulum swing. This or electro magnets should keep the unit in
>motion indefinitely.
>All in all I think the most beautiful part of this invention is a water pump
>for developing nation's farmers.
>http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm

http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/pendpump.htm
The water hand-pump with pendulum of Veljko Milkovic

It would be beautiful if there are or ever were any working examples 
that actually pumped water with 9:1 over-unity energy, or any 
over-unity, do you know of any such examples?

Do you know of any other working, real-world, attested, authenticated 
examples of this over-unity device working? Or of any over-unity 
device working?

I think this about sums it up:

>"I did look at several sites describing the "pendulum of Veljko 
>Milkovic". It seems like a neat little device and it does provide 
>for hands-free operation because the human force is stored in the 
>pendulum swing so that the pump continues to pump for awhile after 
>the push.
>
>The machine is not a free energy device. All the energy for the pump 
>comes from the person pushing the pendulum. If it were really 
>overunity (one claim was 9 times as much energy out as in), it would 
>be easy to set it up to pump forever.
>
>Its a neat little invention. It is not free energy. It is not 
>perpetual motion. It is not over-unity. It is a cool hand pump. 
>There are many hand pumps of many designs available. Show me one 
>that pumps without input energy from a person or other source and 
>then we will have "free energy".

http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=35461#Item_6

I doubt dangling magnets off it will help much.

Best

Keith


>Wes
>
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:04 -0500
>From: "Frank Navarrete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Castor oil as a therapy
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Message-ID:
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
>
>Hi Wes,
>Interesting link to Milkovic's work.  I wonder if you could apply
>added pendulum energy to a bicycle, and have a sort of long-distance
>low-effort gear.


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[Biofuel] pendulum/lever

[Wes Moore]

Frank, I think the link shows some experiment of him attempting to apply the
use in a go cart, I didn't understand what he was trying to do.
The most interesting concept to me might be to configure it with a magnet
and coil similar to the induction flashlights that work by shaking (sliding
a magnet back and forth through a coil).
Somewhere in the link you will also see the idea to attach magnets at either
end of the pendulum swing. This or electro magnets should keep the unit in
motion indefinitely.
All in all I think the most beautiful part of this invention is a water pump
for developing nation's farmers.
http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm 

Wes  

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:04 -0500
From: "Frank Navarrete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Castor oil as a therapy
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed

Hi Wes,
Interesting link to Milkovic's work.  I wonder if you could apply
added pendulum energy to a bicycle, and have a sort of long-distance
low-effort gear.





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Re: [Biofuel] Temperatures

[Keith Addison]

Hello Marc

Your message is only a kilobyte or so but your post is 53 kb, about 
50 kb is just waste. Sent to thousands of list members that amounts 
to a large amount of wasted bandwidth.

Next time you send a message please don't include the entire daily 
digest at the end.

To answer your question, whether you use KOH or NaOH doesn't affect 
the processing temperature, use the same temperature. The reason for 
the usual practice of keeping the processing temperature below about 
55 deg C is to prevent the methanol from boiling off. Methanol boils 
at 64.7 deg C, 148.5 deg F. Generally speaking, higher temperatures 
mean better processing and therefore less soap.

Please see "The modelling of the biodiesel reaction":
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#macromodel

Best

Keith Addison
Biofuel list owner

 
>Hello,
>
>I have a question about temperatures and when using NaOH or KOH. First I
>used NaOH as a catalyst and my reaction temperature was 50 degrees
>Celsius. Now we use KOH as a catalyst. Should this reaction be done at
>the same temperature or should we change it. Has different kind of
>temperature effect on soap formation, I mean, when the temperature is to
>high you will make more soap?
>Greetings,
>
>Marc Arends




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[Biofuel] Temperatures

[M.R. Arends]

2495233634&q=Nutricide
(A must see video on Codex)

This means there are people out there who have a vested interest in
keeping people sick. The sickness, insanity and awful terrorism of the
pharmaceutical industry are accepted lamely by the masses yet it was not
too long ago that many pushed the American government (and pushed hard)
to keep their hands off of peoples' right to choose the supplements they
want. 

Today, in Europe and America wherever chemicals are likely to become the
subject of criticism, the companies move in, balancing, propagandizing,
controlling, mediating protests, funding pseudo-scientific research,
buying people off and funding social ventures to enhance their
reputation.[xxxix]

Unfortunately for the public that the western medical establishment is
against their principle to use safe medicines like ALA[xl] and magnesium
chloride. Both are extremely useful in treating disease and protecting
the body against the daily assaults that lead to disease and aging. It
is also unfortunate to be living in an age where our access to such
natural and safe substances cannot be taken for granted. Health This
freedom is being threatened by new laws[xli] that once again sustain a
most dangerous form of medicine, one that assumes the best and most
appropriate way to treat disease is to poison people with toxic drugs.

We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the
greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history
has the medical establishment knowingly created a life threatening
nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people.

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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 01:46:59 -0600
From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Biofuel] Fw: Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary
To: 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


  I think it is interesting that mercury is number two in
  toxicity. Uranium is number one and that's being spread
  all over Iraq via DU (depleted uranium) weapons. Wind
  currents are spreading it over vast reaches of the planet.
  Peace, D. Mindock

  Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary 
  Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:07 pm (PST) 
  I ["kayedoe1" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] am cross posting this important
information (with permission of the authors) for anyone that is
interested in this topic. 
  [From Beck-n-Stuff Yahoo group]


  Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary.
  (c) Dr Leo Rebello & Jagannath Chatterjee ,
  (Published in Medical Journal "Homoeo a' fair", December 2006) 
  Presented personally to Swami Ramdevji on 01.01.2007

  Since the time they were introduced around 200 years ago vaccines 
  have been credited to be a medical marvel, having stopped killer 
  acute diseases on their tracks and providing hopes of similarly 
  tackling other diseases like AIDS, and also chronic autoimmune 
  disorders like cancer, diabetes, even ending obesity and the nicotine 
  habit. 

  Emergence of autism fuels discontent.
  But below all this hope, hype and activity opposition and discontent 
  is brewing. The process of vaccine manufacture, and the nature of 
  vaccine ingredients have always been a closely guarded secret. 
  However an outbreak of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) in American 
  children, up from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 166 today, an increase that 
  coincides with the increase in number of childhood vaccinations since 
  1978, focused attention on vaccines with the parents claiming that 
  they watched their children regress after they got the shots. 

  Children with ASD, a condition yet to be fully understood, usually 
  demonstrate deficits in social interaction, verbal and nonverbal 
  communication, and display repetitive behaviors or interests. They 
  may suffer from delayed development and be afflicted by severe bowel 
  disorders. Clinically it is attributed to a neuron disorder and 
  blamed on the genes, the gut problems being generally ignored. 
  Critics say it is the largest iatrogenic (medicine induced) epidemic 
  in human history. 

  Mercury poisoning via vaccines.
  The cries against vaccines became more vocal as autism was found to 
  be very similar to symptoms of mercury poisoning. Vaccine whistle 
  blowers have revealed that Thimerosal, a vaccine decontaminant used 
  in multi dose vials to prevent fungal and bacterial growth, is 49.56% 
  mercury by weight and it is being used since 1930. The first autism 
  cases were detected in 1931. Earlier too a syndrome called "Pink 
  Disease" was seen in children treated with Calomel, a mercury based 
  compound. Calomel was banned when the link was known. 

  It takes simple mathematics to find out that by the time the 

[Biofuel] Nutracide, thanks to Big Pharma & corrupt politicians

[D. Mindock]

Note: ALA is alpha lipoic acid. Chelorex is used to chelate heavy metals from 
the entire body, including the
brain. I think the Codex backers want it in place sometime in 2009. We must 
fight "harmonization" all the way. Codex is the art of double-speak at its 
best.  Peace, D. Mindock

Ivy Greenwell, writing for Life Extension Magazine said, "It has been known for 
almost a decade that lipoic acid effectively inhibits the replication of the 
AIDS virus in vitro. This is not surprising in view of our knowledge that 
lipoic acid inhibits the activation of Nuclear Factor kappa B (NFkB), which is 
believed to play an important role in the activation of the HIV virus. 
Essentially, the latent virus is activated by certain inflammatory cytokines 
that result from the activation of NFkB. These cytokines include Tumor Necrosis 
Factor alpha (TNF alpha)-hence the goal of reducing TNF alpha, and the 
similarity between alternative treatments against AIDS and hepatitis, Dr. 
Patrick pointed out. Both protocols emphasize lipoic acid, selenium and a 
combination of various other antioxidants. In addition, many AIDS patients are 
co-infected with Hepatitis C. "All AIDS patients need liver support," Patrick 
said. In addition to 500 mg of lipoic acid/day, she also uses silymarin, shown 
to be remarkably effective in restoring liver health."

The core of my personal health and longevity program is heavy daily doses of 
natural magnesium chloride applied transdermally, along with spirulina and 
Chelorex. Even calcium bentonite clay for oral intake is in that program. They 
make up the core of the protocol I will present later this year in my upcoming 
book Survival Medicine for the 21st Century. Believe me the day is going to 
come that we all will wish we had the foresight to stock up on survival 
medicines, for not only are our economic lives going to change drastically but: 

Everything is slowly being in put in place for global laws which will 
affect all countries - so called 'harmonization'. The drug companies
are desperate to stem the tide of popularity of natural medicine 
and are leaning on governments to create legislation against them.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5266884912495233634&q=Nutricide
(A must see video on Codex)

This means there are people out there who have a vested interest in keeping 
people sick. The sickness, insanity and awful terrorism of the pharmaceutical 
industry are accepted lamely by the masses yet it was not too long ago that 
many pushed the American government (and pushed hard) to keep their hands off 
of peoples' right to choose the supplements they want. 

Today, in Europe and America wherever chemicals are likely to become the 
subject of criticism, the companies move in, balancing, propagandizing, 
controlling, mediating protests, funding pseudo-scientific research, buying 
people off and funding social ventures to enhance their reputation.[xxxix]

Unfortunately for the public that the western medical establishment is against 
their principle to use safe medicines like ALA[xl] and magnesium chloride. Both 
are extremely useful in treating disease and protecting the body against the 
daily assaults that lead to disease and aging. It is also unfortunate to be 
living in an age where our access to such natural and safe substances cannot be 
taken for granted. Health This freedom is being threatened by new laws[xli] 
that once again sustain a most dangerous form of medicine, one that assumes the 
best and most appropriate way to treat disease is to poison people with toxic 
drugs.

We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the
greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history
has the medical establishment knowingly created a life threatening
nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people.

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