[Biofuel] Hydrogen economy looks out of reach
Hydrogen economy looks out of reach Mark Peplow 07 October 2004 http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041004/pf/041004-13_pf.html US vehicles would require a million wind turbines, economists claim. Converting every vehicle in the United States to hydrogen power would demand so much electricity that the country would need enough wind turbines to cover half of California or 1,000 extra nuclear power stations. So concludes a British economist, whose calculation is intended to highlight the difficulties of achieving a truly green hydrogen economy. This calculation is useful to make people realize what an enormous problem we face, says Andrew Oswald, an economist from the University of Warwick. The hydrogen economy has been touted as a replacement for fossil fuels, which release carbon dioxide when burnt, thus contributing to global warming. Burning hydrogen produces only water. Most hydrogen is currently made from methane, in a process that releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Splitting water molecules with electricity generates hydrogen - but the electricity is likely to have been generated from fossil fuels. Although this may shift urban pollution to out-of-town electricity plants, it makes little difference to greenhouse-gas output. Today, hydrogen is not a clean, green fuel, says Oswald's brother Jim, an energy consultant who assisted with the calculation. You've got to ask: where did the hydrogen come from? The only technology that can currently make large amounts of hydrogen without using fossil fuels relies on renewable power sources or nuclear energy, the Oswalds argue. Hydrogen will only mitigate global warming when a clean source of the gas becomes available, they say. Unpopular options The duo considered the United Kingdom and the United States. Transport accounts for about one third of each country's energy consumption. UK transport uses only a tenth as much energy as the United States, but there is less land available: the hydrogen switch would require 100,000 wind turbines, enough to occupy an area greater than Wales. It's unlikely that enough turbines could ever be built, says Jim Oswald. On the other hand, public opposition to nuclear energy deters many politicians. I suspect we will do nothing, because all the options are so unpopular. I don't think we'll ever have a true hydrogen economy. The outlook is extremely bleak, he adds. The brothers outline their calculation in the current issue of Accountancy magazine. Hydrogen is not a near-term prospect, agrees Paul Ekins, an energy economist at the Policy Studies Institute, London. There will have to be a few fundamental breakthroughs in technology first, he says. Politicians eager to promote their green credentials, yet unaware of the realities, have oversold the hydrogen dream, says Ekins. I'm amazed by the number of politicians who think you can dig hydrogen out of the ground, he says. However, he thinks that the Oswalds are too pessimistic about the possibilities of new technology. An enormous amount of attention is being paid to generating hydrogen cleanly, he says. If we could trap the carbon dioxide produced by fossil fuels underground, we could convert them to hydrogen, says Ekins. It's not tried and tested, but it's a possibility. And it could become a reality by the time we have enough hydrogen-powered cars to make it necessary, he says. So do the Oswalds have a more immediate answer to the hydrogen problem? We could always use less energy, but that doesn't seem very likely, Jim Oswald says ruefully. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen economy really oil
preposterous. Much like a misguided concern about global exhaustion of atmospheric oxygen from burning fossil fuels. So I would very much like to see a reference to either the low oxygen concentrations in big cities and or the connection between low oxygenation and cancer. Kirk McLoren wrote: Reduction of O2 is being ignored. I hear it is as low as 16% in some cities. Low oxygenation and cancer are linked. Kirk robert harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] hydrogen economy really oil
Reduction of O2 is being ignored. I hear it is as low as 16% in some cities. Low oxygenation and cancer are linked. Kirk robert harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The hydrogen economy is being pushed because it is favored by the current oil companies, the cheapest source of hydrogen is oil and therefore switching to hydrogen will not reduce the use or profits of oil, but i fear that large scale use of hydrogen that was not sourced from the electrolysis of water (which is useless as energy source, only a method of energy storage) will lead to an increase in the total volume of water in earths biosphere and water vapor in our atmosphere which I beleive will be far more apt to alter weather than our current problems of co2 and co - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight
Hey Darryl, I agree with you, why aren't biofuels as sexy as fuel cells? Where's hollyood when you need them? I have always thought that if people could understand the idea of carbon neutrality, biodiesel and other distillates would be a no brainer. I'll take some fresh atmospheric carbon with that please, hold the petroleum. Or maybe Pamela Anderson with rapeseed oil all over her breasts. Or maybe the fast food industry instigating fatty foods ingestion to fuel our energy economy. sounds econogical Jonathan From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/09/18 Sat AM 10:18:11 CDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion) Hi Donald, you pressed my HE button. Response in-line below. Donald Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip PV vs biofuel text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being placed on the Hydrogen Economy at the moment, especially by the US government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy, just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally satisfactory solutions. On the other hand, biofuel technology is pretty mature - most of it is at least 100 years old - and is available now. Biofuels could be used on a very wide scale without making any major changes to the infrastructure, such as the supply chain. While it does make sense to fund research into technology that one day may be even better, it seems that this is a poor excuse for not promoting technologies that can provide real benefits today. I do sometimes wonder whether it's more about 'image' - in other words, talking about Hydrogen is trendy, in a way that for example biodiesel is not. Donald Why would a government with ties to the oil and coal industries be promoting the Hydrogen Economy? Could it be because the primary source for hydrogen today is natural gas? Or because the next source being promoted is from gasification of coal? Or because the Hydrogen Economy provides a convenient screen to hide behind for at least 20 years so the oil and automotive sectors can continue to operate in a business as usual mode in relative peace and quiet? Deflecting criticism for not developing electric (advanced battery) vehicles or electric-(bio)diesel hybrids (per PNGV) vehicles that would upset their current operations and investment? (Look how green we are! We're spending the taxpayer's money on hydrogen cars.) Or because if the Hydrogen Economy, if it actually comes to fruition, would actually increase demand for fossil fuels for the next 25-50 years? It's not because the hydrogen will be produced from sustainable energy sources - the current U.S. government is cutting support for renewables. I don't think the motivation is nearly as benign as image. As for cycle efficiency for hydrogen fuel cells, it's not nearly as rosy as advertised. Probably in the order of 5%. See slide 17 from my presentation at http://www.econogics.com/en/hydrogen.doc . Or my article at http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm . Or just start in at my webpage on the hydrogen economy at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm to get the whole story. snip earlier PV vs biofuel conversation text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Ski until you die ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen Economy (was Question - efficiency of sunlight conversion)
Hi Donald, you pressed my HE button. Response in-line below. Donald Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip PV vs biofuel text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) As an aside, I am puzzled as to why there is so much emphasis being placed on the Hydrogen Economy at the moment, especially by the US government. Hydogen is just a way of storing and transporting energy, just as are biofuels. OK, I realise that fuel cells can theoretically deliver a greater whole-cycle efficiency than biofuels, but it seems to me that a lot of money is being spent on something that probably won't give us a cost-effective solution for at least 20 years - given that there are still a large number of technical hurdles without totally satisfactory solutions. On the other hand, biofuel technology is pretty mature - most of it is at least 100 years old - and is available now. Biofuels could be used on a very wide scale without making any major changes to the infrastructure, such as the supply chain. While it does make sense to fund research into technology that one day may be even better, it seems that this is a poor excuse for not promoting technologies that can provide real benefits today. I do sometimes wonder whether it's more about 'image' - in other words, talking about Hydrogen is trendy, in a way that for example biodiesel is not. Donald Why would a government with ties to the oil and coal industries be promoting the Hydrogen Economy? Could it be because the primary source for hydrogen today is natural gas? Or because the next source being promoted is from gasification of coal? Or because the Hydrogen Economy provides a convenient screen to hide behind for at least 20 years so the oil and automotive sectors can continue to operate in a business as usual mode in relative peace and quiet? Deflecting criticism for not developing electric (advanced battery) vehicles or electric-(bio)diesel hybrids (per PNGV) vehicles that would upset their current operations and investment? (Look how green we are! We're spending the taxpayer's money on hydrogen cars.) Or because if the Hydrogen Economy, if it actually comes to fruition, would actually increase demand for fossil fuels for the next 25-50 years? It's not because the hydrogen will be produced from sustainable energy sources - the current U.S. government is cutting support for renewables. I don't think the motivation is nearly as benign as image. As for cycle efficiency for hydrogen fuel cells, it's not nearly as rosy as advertised. Probably in the order of 5%. See slide 17 from my presentation at http://www.econogics.com/en/hydrogen.doc . Or my article at http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm . Or just start in at my webpage on the hydrogen economy at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm to get the whole story. snip earlier PV vs biofuel conversation text (available at http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/38355/) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ok Ken, U got ma interest..please send me more details of the solar concentrator. DId U know there is a newsgroup just for solar concentrators? Mike JAMAICA - Original Message - From: Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken Gotberg wrote: Hi From all the replies given by people who seem to know, H2 is less efficient than a standard internal combustion engine and why bother? There is no net sum gain and even a net sum loss. Ken I think you misunderstand something here. Burning hydrogen in an appropriately converted engine can be MORE efficient than burning gasoline because hydrogen tolerates a very wide flammability range and can successfully run on a very lean mixture. The problems with hydrogen are: How do you produce it in an energetically efficient manner, and how can you store it conveniently and safely? You conclusion, however, is basically correct. For that reason, I've never met anyone who burns hydrogen in their daily driver. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for lets say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. Theres no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The worlds not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes its a better way to go. Its the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! Its true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. Im not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like youre going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the cars gas tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:15:21 -0600, you wrote: I see solar thermal as easier on the environment. If you want to see what silicon purification and fabrication do to the environment look at the San Jose Ca. water. Also solar thermal is lower tech. I certainly respect this point. A clarification would be that some of my focus on Solar PV is out of the fact that it works so well in conjunction with EVs. You can install a combination of PV and an EV in a home and this cuts through a lot of problems. from then on you have a potentially trouble-free, fuel-dollar-free transportation solution. I like PV for other reasons, but certainly there's no reason to exclude from consideration other good ways of harvesting solar energy, which arguably have excellent advantages over other technologies. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Ken, I have some minor problems to consolidate the efficiency assumptions. My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 and slightly above and from small to large. I also understand that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and from small to large. Chargeable batteries have an efficiency in the range of 80%, according to my understanding. On heat engines we have the same understanding. I also understand that Hydrogen molecules are so small that it is much larger containment problems than Natural Gas. It is no compatibility between equipment for Natural gas and Hydrogen. I saw that the fuel tank for one of the hydrogen car prototypes had a cost of $20,000. R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. To use NG is even a less sustainable situation than oil. Producer gas from coal would probably be an alternative, but it is very dirty and it is therefore the politicians do not want to talk about it. It is however the realistic and logic outcome of the Bush hydrogen alternative. It could extend the use current energy consumption at low cost with 50 to 100 years. It would also make US less dependent on oil imports. My suspicion is that the much advertised US hydrogen economy will turn out to be a Producer gas (Gengas) economy, based on the larges domestic coal reserves in the world. US will never join the Kyoto agreement. The technical discussions that we now have are more than half a century old or 70 years. Hakan At 11:47 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote: Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 ÐLowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for letâs say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. Thereâs no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The worldâs not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes itâs a better way to go. Itâs the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! Itâs true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. Iâm not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like youâre going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the carâs ãgasä tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Hakan Yes, it appears the 70% figure is wrong and I misinterpreted from http://www.pacensys.com/SitingPowerPlants.pdf my apologies. It looks like overall H2 efficiency is less than I figured. Textbooks say that fuel cells are much better than 30-to-50%. Does anyone know for sure what actual efficiencies are in a H2 vehicle? Electrolysis and discharge have over potentials etc, but 50-to-70% losses seem very high to me. Ken --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, I have some minor problems to consolidate the efficiency assumptions. My information is that power stations have 30 to 50 and slightly above and from small to large. I also understand that this is the same as for fuel cells 30 to 50 and from small to large. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
Hi Ken, Ken wrote : I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. I am very much interested in your solar concentrator design. At this time I try to build a Stirling engine, but also our little company uses lots of hot water, so any good design is more than welcome. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2 Hi All I agree about H2 fuel cell efficiency, but extra electric power generation will be needed just the same. Using a 20-horesepower average figure means hp delivered by the engine and this is usually advertised as ~25%. Better to convert back to Watts (1 hp = 746 Watts ~ 750 W). 20-hp (15kW) delivered means the engine is using 60kW of fuel (60kJoules per sec). All heat engines are limited by the Carnot cycle efficiency =1 -LowT/HighT where T is given in Kelvin = Celsius + 273. If you do the math for let's say a steam turbine with a LowT = 100C = 373K and a HighT of 800C = 1073K the maximum possible efficiency is 65%. There's no way around this with a heat engine! Using higher T differences and cogeneration, I read somewhere that modern power plants can get up to 70% efficiency? Batteries and fuel cells are NOT heat engines and efficiencies can get up to 100% in a perfect world. The world's not perfect and I guess maybe 90% efficiency for a H2 charge/discharge. A round trip is 90% x 90% ~80%. Assuming 70% efficiency for a modern power plant, this means an overall efficiency of 80%x70% = 56%. This is more than twice as good as a fuel car engine, so yes it's a better way to go. It's the extra infrastructure that will cost a lot of money and is there the political will to spend a whole lot of money on this? California would not be a good place to depend on a H2 fuel cell car! It's true that most homes in the US have natural gas and could be exploited for H2. I'm not sure how you turn CH4 into 2H2 + C. A natural gas heat engine generator will work to electrolyze water, but it seems like you're going around in circles this way. Why not just convert your gasoline car to natural gas and avoid all the hassle? Pump the home natural gas into the car's gas tank. I advocate an aluminum economy. Aluminum tends to be electrolyzed from ore using hydroelectric power in places like Canada. BTW I have a ~12kW very low cost solar concentrator design if anyone is interested. It can power external heat engines like turbines, Stirling, Thermoacoustic Stirling, steam and you get hot water in the first world and/or sterilized water in the third world, like Indonesia. Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
MM, Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources would last with current consumption of energy. It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old measurement from the days when export/import did not play that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. It would however cause many severe crises. Hakan At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. Hakan: Could you please provide a definition for R/P value? I think you did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on google.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy-2
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:31:01 +0200, you wrote: MM, Known Resources/Production or Consumption per year is R/P value. It gives you the number of years the local resources would last with current consumption of energy. It turns out to be the consumption when you look at local level like a country, since the consumption is filled by imports. The way it is used it should really be R/C instead, but it is an old measurement from the days when export/import did not play that much. US have a R/P of 10 years for oil and that means that its local resources would last for 10 years with its local consumption, for NG it is 7 years. Because the limited capacity of transport and distribution for import, US now have a NG crises. It isn't clear to me if it's consumption or production. Which is it? There are huge differences in these numbers in the US. For example, our consumption of Oil is roughly 20 million barrels per day (7.3 Billion barrels per year). Our production is roughly 10 million barrels per day (3.65 billion barrels per year, more or less). So, which number are you using in stating this R/P for Oil in the U.S.? That will give me a better idea of what you're saying. New discoveries does change the number, but the estimates of unknown resources varies between 1 to 3 times the known, between the realistic and most overly optimistic estimates. This would give US maximum 20 to 40 year for oil and 14 to 28 years for NG, before their reserves are definitely gone. It is however not a definite stop, since the production would go down gradually. It would however cause many severe crises. Hakan At 01:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: R/P value for US Natural gas is around 7 years and for the world 60 years. Hakan: Could you please provide a definition for R/P value? I think you did this once, but I can't find it, nor any mention of this term on google.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I'm not that old Hakan, but I still hear it echoing. Energy will never get that cheap unless there is an abundance like you say, and then only if their is competition. (both) Hakan Falk wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:34:15 -0400, you wrote: I'm not that old Hakan, but I still hear it echoing. Energy will never get that cheap unless there is an abundance like you say, and then only if their is competition. (both) The abundance could I think only take place in a world or national or local economy where demand was sensitive to price and became more modest. One could go through a period of such cheapness, although I think eventually demand, seeing that price is so cheap, might rise to bring it up. You could argue that the first one hundred years or more of the electric power industry has had the price of electricity reflect in some ways an under-pricing because in some cases payment for negative externalities has been put off to others, or put off to the future. Another thought that keeps occurring to me is that providing energy, or any other sustainable resource, to a given population would be easier if the population were not growing by leaps and bounds. I think some progress has been made in birth control technologies and practices over the last few decades, but I hope that more progress is made, giving parents better control of if and when to choose to have children. This is in part an economic decision (for some). Ultimately, if population on the globe were to grow with no end in sight then it's not possible, in my view, to define any sustainable solutions to provide basic needs to that population. Hakan Falk wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi all, I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen. First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes should I use, so they don't go in solution ? What electrolite should I use ? Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this item ? By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any problems at all. Just great! Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. I've made hydrogen at home. No terrorist has ever approached me about this! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Robert, You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things. Fusion and other technologies are very interesting. I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the largest immediate benefit would be in further development of existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are ready for use. This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today and would have substantial effects on the energy companies revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is supported by the corporations and government? I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a suitable occupation in millions of homes? US is now spending enormous amounts of money on Homeland security, securing oil deliveries and fighting perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by serious investments this money in, - Clean air - Road safety - Better nutrition habits - Crime prevention Under the current administration the US society developed a very serious and violent them against us attitude and it is no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large difficulties in finding a positive development in the new neo-conservative world. If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real and immediate progress in the US energy plan? Hakan At 02:31 AM 9/21/2003, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. I've made hydrogen at home. No terrorist has ever approached me about this! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things. Fusion and other technologies are very interesting. I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the largest immediate benefit would be in further development of existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are ready for use. You are hitting on an important principle. If electricity could be produced at such a price, would it not be wiser, from an efficiency perspective, to use that power for EV's instead? This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today and would have substantial effects on the energy companies revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is supported by the corporations and government? This is a hard question to answer, because corporations exist to make money, and governments need tax revenue. If money can be made producing electricity for such a price, I'm sure it would be done! I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a suitable occupation in millions of homes? My remarks were a bit facetious, I admit! Safety issues with hydrogen must be addressed if this is to be done on a large scale. Home refueling appliances have been developed to deal with safety concerns in the same manner that is currently done with natural gas home refueling equipment. On a large scale, however, I think that if hydrogen is going to get done, it will NOT be done at home. Reformers and hydride tanks installed in gasoline service stations will ensure that energy profits remain firmly in the hands of the big energy companies. To answer your question directly, I have never made a sufficient quantity of hydrogen to run a vehicle--although I think that doing so would be well within my capability if I had the resources at my disposal. US is now spending enormous amounts of money on Homeland security, securing oil deliveries and fighting perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by serious investments this money in, - Clean air - Road safety - Better nutrition habits - Crime prevention Absolutely! Part of the problem, however, is that my government doesn't actually HAVE any of the money it wants for Iraq and Afghanistan. Deficit spending will come back to haunt us. . . Under the current administration the US society developed a very serious and violent them against us attitude and it is no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large difficulties in finding a positive development in the new neo-conservative world. Sadly, the political party to which I belong has been hijacked by extremists. We're witnessing the fruit of this in completely irresponsible fiscal policy, increased militarization and the strong surge of anti-American sentiment all over the world. What's worse, is that my countrymen seem completely oblivious to the trend--and many of them simply don't care what the rest of the world thinks! If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real and immediate progress in the US energy plan? That depends upon point of view. Chevron / Texaco, Esso, Shell and the rest of the oil companies are grinning with glee! There was a feature on NPR the other day concerning gas and oil exploration on federal lands in Montana. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1436104 It seems the current administration is determined to solve the energy problem by drilling. You and I are both aware of the r / p problem with natural gas in North America. Anything concerning energy that comes out of the current administration seems more short sighted than the policies implemented by any previous presidential administration I can remember. The hydrogen economy idea has been kidnapped by this administration. If America was serious about solar hydrogen, we would have been investing in the infrastructure to develop it decades ago, and we'd be well on our way by now. It would have been cheaper to manufacture and install point focus stirling and p.v. gen sets on federal land in order to promote energy independence than it was to invade Iraq. This would have created jobs in the United States, increased wealth and enabled our foreign policy to be less driven by the insatiable need to expropriate everyone else's oil and gas resources. Nobody seems willing to take the real solar hydrogen advocates very seriously. Mr. Bush's plan for hydrogen is nothing more than a way of undercutting progress for increased efficiency while helping his friends in the oil and gas sector make a lot more money.
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? robert luis rabello wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Martin wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? Yes. That's why most of us aren't exactly waiting with baited breath. . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Up to now the price of PV has seemed to come down, but I don't have a strong sense of it. Enough production still seems to be owned by the Oil Giants that I try to refrain from over-optimism as to the pace of the decline in price. I can see how someone in Japan or Germany might be somewhat more optimistic as those countries seem to have non-Oil Solar companies. On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:40:34 +0200, you wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I see solar thermal as easier on the environment. If you want to see what silicon purification and fabrication do to the environment look at the San Jose Ca. water. Also solar thermal is lower tech. http://www.ecomall.com/activism/solar.htm In Egypt in 1912, Shuman and Boys used the sun to generate a 60 horsepower engine for a irrigation project. They built a 220 foot longparabolic trough collector which, in principle, is still in use today. In 1939, the first modern attempt to heat houses with solar energy started with a model home built at MIT. Solar energy is not new and is a well-proven technology. To quote Sir George Porter, If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had solar energy centuries ago. http://www.solarenergy.com/info_history.html This page is well worth reading. Several machines described. Also see http://www.deathvalleypizza.com/1time___.html Kirk -Original Message- From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy Up to now the price of PV has seemed to come down, but I don't have a strong sense of it. Enough production still seems to be owned by the Oil Giants that I try to refrain from over-optimism as to the pace of the decline in price. I can see how someone in Japan or Germany might be somewhat more optimistic as those countries seem to have non-Oil Solar companies. On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:40:34 +0200, you wrote: Hi Martin, I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's and for nuclear power. Hakan At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote: I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity being too cheap to meter? Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htmhttp://www.mokindustrie s.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi Heres my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car companies are promoting plugging into your home at night to charge up for the morning commute. How much extra capacity will power companies need to install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Lets say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if anyone has an average electric bill for comparison. A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? Best regards, Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hi Ken, Now you are a bad boy! It is not meant to question this dreams with silly things as capacity, energy sources or security, Hydrogen dreams and ready for use fuel economies, an introduction. http://energy.saving.nu/resources/scamartists.shtml When you start poking, you find holes that are large enough to drive all the Trucks in US trough them. Initially Hydrogen will come from US coal reserves and then central production with huge Nuclear Power Stations. To diversify from this, to consumer level is at best a naive dream and probably a deliberate attempt of scam. To hook up your car for consumer production of one of the most difficult gases to handle, cannot be a realistic dream. Osama bin Laden would be happy to know that the Americans will blow up themselves at the end. Maybe they are now building arguments for Bush to take the taxpayers money and pay for the upgrade of the grid. Hakan At 08:42 AM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Hi Here's my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car companies are promoting plugging into your home at night to charge up for the morning commute. How much extra capacity will power companies need to install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Let's say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if anyone has an average electric bill for comparison. A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? Best regards, Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Initially Hydrogen will come from US coal reserves and then central production with huge Nuclear Power Stations. To diversify from this, to consumer level is at best a naive dream and probably a deliberate attempt of scam. To some extent I think it will also come from natural gas reformed at the level of the home (and let us remember that H2 is presently usually made from Natural Gas... about 90% I think). And, as Ken points out, from simple electrolysis using electricity delivered to the home. If they must have their H2 economy, I'd like to see H2 made from other sources, such as methane made from biomass, if they want to establish a sustainable economy of H2, but what do I know. To hook up your car for consumer production of one of the most difficult gases to handle, cannot be a realistic dream. Osama bin Laden would be happy to know that the Americans will blow up themselves at the end. Maybe they are now building arguments for Bush to take the taxpayers money and pay for the upgrade of the grid. Hakan At 08:42 AM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Hi Here's my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car companies are promoting plugging into your home at night to charge up for the morning commute. How much extra capacity will power companies need to install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Let's say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if anyone has an average electric bill for comparison. A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? Best regards, Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. Hakan At 06:27 PM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Initially Hydrogen will come from US coal reserves and then central production with huge Nuclear Power Stations. To diversify from this, to consumer level is at best a naive dream and probably a deliberate attempt of scam. To some extent I think it will also come from natural gas reformed at the level of the home (and let us remember that H2 is presently usually made from Natural Gas... about 90% I think). And, as Ken points out, from simple electrolysis using electricity delivered to the home. If they must have their H2 economy, I'd like to see H2 made from other sources, such as methane made from biomass, if they want to establish a sustainable economy of H2, but what do I know. To hook up your car for consumer production of one of the most difficult gases to handle, cannot be a realistic dream. Osama bin Laden would be happy to know that the Americans will blow up themselves at the end. Maybe they are now building arguments for Bush to take the taxpayers money and pay for the upgrade of the grid. Hakan At 08:42 AM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Hi Here's my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car companies are promoting plugging into your home at night to charge up for the morning commute. How much extra capacity will power companies need to install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Let's say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if anyone has an average electric bill for comparison. A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? Best regards, Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: Control live television Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
By the way, we are tricked into a serious technical discussion here and the only thing they want is the taxpayers money for upgrading the grid. Since I do not pay tax in US, it does not matter for me. I am only reacting on the way to do things. Hakan At 07:02 PM 9/20/2003, you wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. Hakan At 06:27 PM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Initially Hydrogen will come from US coal reserves and then central production with huge Nuclear Power Stations. To diversify from this, to consumer level is at best a naive dream and probably a deliberate attempt of scam. To some extent I think it will also come from natural gas reformed at the level of the home (and let us remember that H2 is presently usually made from Natural Gas... about 90% I think). And, as Ken points out, from simple electrolysis using electricity delivered to the home. If they must have their H2 economy, I'd like to see H2 made from other sources, such as methane made from biomass, if they want to establish a sustainable economy of H2, but what do I know. To hook up your car for consumer production of one of the most difficult gases to handle, cannot be a realistic dream. Osama bin Laden would be happy to know that the Americans will blow up themselves at the end. Maybe they are now building arguments for Bush to take the taxpayers money and pay for the upgrade of the grid. Hakan At 08:42 AM 9/20/2003, you wrote: Hi Here's my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car companies are promoting plugging into your home at night to charge up for the morning commute. How much extra capacity will power companies need to install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Let's say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if anyone has an average electric bill for comparison. A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? Best regards, Ken Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
Hakan Falk wrote: I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas. With the current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes an even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in US to build a lot more nuclear power stations. No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a single source of hydrogen production should be pursued. The people who are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind or any of the options explained below. Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier. Some people believe that concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed. http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html http://www.solarsystems.com.au/ Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. I've made hydrogen at home. No terrorist has ever approached me about this! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
