Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
You could make the argument that if we are using patterns to determine truths thenif we use the Bible Codes, War and Peace is accurate as the Bible or Moby Dick.-Arthur biobenz wrote: Henry Makow, PHD and a confirmed Torah Jew, had much to say about The Protocols, since we seem to want to get into it This is not to say that they are genuine or not, it is, as I have said in the past, more than a little curious that everything contained therin has and is coming to pass. Dr Makow's articles can be found here: http://www.savethemales.ca/000334.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000298.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000223.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000205.html --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. From this and several other things, whether or not this applies to Luc, it might well apply to you: Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
I am simply saying that if the document is sufficiently vague it is trivial to match patterns in the document to reality. I have not read war and peace but if it is vague it can easily be interpreted as a valid professy. - bfn - JAW Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I agree completely. -Arthur John Woolsey wrote: I am simply saying that if the document is sufficiently vague it is trivial to match patterns in the document to reality. I have not read war and peace but if it is vague it can easily be interpreted as a valid professy. - bfn - JAW Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re[2]: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Aug, Thanks so much for sending this. It is very valuable. Peace, Ken -Original Message- From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:54 AM To: Biofuel Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Hallo, A bit ago MM asked about the *no comment* silence from the list and I replied as best as I was able. My reply was basically that anyone who has the audacity to question any act of Israel regardless of how evil and heinous the act would be smeared as an anti-semite. Here is MM's last paragraph of that mail: m As I am not a scholar on this document, but was more offended, as I m said, by the manner in which the topic of the document was raised, I'd m like to ask if anyone here has any response to this analysis of m Luc's. If Luc is to be praised so mightily for raising topics that m take some analysis and effort and (arguably) courage in the face of m established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from m the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement m such as the above. m MM When I woke up this morning I found the piece below in my mailbox at my university account. Seems fortuitous given this thread and it explains things much more eloquently than I have. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Practice of Ritual Defamation: How Values, Opinions and Beliefs are controlled in Democratic Societies By Laird Wilcox FOREWORD Defamation is the destruction or attempted destruction of the reputation, status, character or standing in the community of a person, or group of persons, by wrongful, unfair, or malicious speech or publication. For the purposes of this essay, the central element is defamation in retaliation for the real or imagined attitudes, opinions or beliefs of the victim, with the intention of silencing [him], and neutralizing his or her influence, and/or making an example of them so as to discourage similar independence and insensitivity or non-observance of taboos. It is different in nature and degree from simple criticism or disagreement in that it is aggressive, organized and skillfully applied, often by an organization or representative of a special interest group, and in that it consists of several characteristic elements. Ritual defamation is not ritualistic because it follows any prescribed religious or mystical doctrine, nor is it embraced in any particular scripture. Rather, it is ritualistic because it follows a predictable, stereotyped pattern which embraces a number of typical elements, as in a ritual. THE ELEMENTS OF A RITUAL DEFAMATION ARE THESE: In a ritual defamation the victim must have violated a particular taboo in some way, usually by expressing or identifying with a forbidden attitude, opinion or belief. It is not necessary that he do anything about it or undertake any course of action, only that he engage in some form of communication or expression. The method of attack in a ritual defamation is to assail the character of the victim, and never to offer more than a perfunctory challenge to the particular attitudes, opinions or beliefs expressed or implied. Character assassination is its primary tool. An important rule is to avoid engaging in honest debate over the truthfulness or reasonableness of what has been expressed, only condemn it. A debate opens the issue up for examination and discussion on its merits, which is just what the ritual defamer is trying to avoid. The primary goal is censorship or repression. The victim is very often someone in the public eye, although perhaps only in a modest way. It could be a school teacher, a writer, a businessman, a minor official, or merely an outspoken citizen. Visibility enhances vulnerability to ritual defamation. An attempt, often successful, is made to involve others in the defamation. In the case of a public official, other public officials will be urged to denounce the offender. In the case of a student, other students will be called upon, and so on. In order for a ritual defamation to be effective, the victim must be dehumanized to the extent that he becomes identical with the offending attitude, opinion or belief, and in a manner which distorts it to the point where it appears at its most extreme. For example, a victim who is defamed as a subversive will be identified with the worst images of subversion, such as espionage or treason. A victim defamed as a pervert will be identified with the worst images of perversion, including child molestation. A victim defamed as a racist or anti-Semitic will be identified with the worst images of racism or anti-Semitism, such as lynchings or gas chambers, and so on. Also, to be successful, a ritual defamation must bring pressure and humiliation from every quarter
[biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Henry Makow, PHD and a confirmed Torah Jew, had much to say about The Protocols, since we seem to want to get into it This is not to say that they are genuine or not, it is, as I have said in the past, more than a little curious that everything contained therin has and is coming to pass. Dr Makow's articles can be found here: http://www.savethemales.ca/000334.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000298.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000223.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000205.html --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. From this and several other things, whether or not this applies to Luc, it might well apply to you: Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here.
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
So we have a guy attempting to analyse a document that has changed many times through history and proven beyond a doubt basically an urban legend dating back hundreds of years. That really sounds like people who are attempting to interpret nostradamous' predictions of the future. I am sure they are really valid too. One of the things you will find is that human intelligence is primarily based on our ability to find patterns. It is realitivly trivial for most people to take anything vague and produce a pattern. It is also meaningless. Take revelations: There will be a great war and then ... Okay which war shall we choose? I can think of at least 2 that fit the bill. I can also say that many more fit the bill if you add the phrase known world. So what happens: every 5 years or so someone predicts the end of the world based on revelations. I checked outside the world still exists. Guess it was just the human pattern matching at work again. Better put the canned food back in storage. If I am a politician the easiest way to take power is by having an enemy. And many of us simpletons are dumb enough to buy this crap. I wonder when we are collectively going to grow up. - bfn - JAW biobenz wrote: Henry Makow, PHD and a confirmed Torah Jew, had much to say about The Protocols, since we seem to want to get into it This is not to say that they are genuine or not, it is, as I have said in the past, more than a little curious that everything contained therin has and is coming to pass. Dr Makow's articles can be found here: http://www.savethemales.ca/000334.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000298.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000223.html http://www.savethemales.ca/000205.html --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First,
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
--- arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. From this and several other things, whether or not this applies to Luc, it might well apply to you: Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any respect. By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. Keith I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly
RE: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hey that was fantastic - very interesting history and insights - thank you. Just goes to prove solomons wise observation - that man has dominated man to his injury (Ecclesiastes 8:9) Lance Blackler -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 06:21:16 +0900 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Arthur Sauerhaft wrote: I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? I'll tell you that tomorrow, never fear, but right now it's late and I'm going to sleep. Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? :-) Perhaps you'd care to tell me just what you've based that assumption on, as there's nothing at all here to support it. Nazis, eh, Arthur? Ever met one? You think you guys have got some sort of franchise on all this stuff? I'll tell you a story. It's a true story. I'm a journalist. I used to be a South African. I worked mostly for the black press there, not a very common pursuit during the dark days of the white racist apartheid era in the 60s and 70s. I was deeply involved in black issues and kept getting into trouble as a result. Eventually I got arrested and fled, left the country for a while to let things cool down. I went to London, got a job in Fleet Street and rented a studio flat belonging to an old couple in Hampstead. They both met me at the door when I arrived there, a small woman and a tall man. They stared at me, then looked quickly at each other, and asked me in. I seemed to make an instant hit - they couldn't do enough to make me feel welcome. There was something intensely warm and human about them, and we quickly became friends. They were really in love - they'd been together for 25 years, and doted on each other like a young couple. One evening we were sitting together in their kitchen drinking coffee, and they told me their story. They were German Jews, and they'd met in a Nazi death camp during World War 2. They'd been interned with their whole families, and each had watched all their loved ones taken off to die, one by one, spouses, children, parents, until each was the only one left alive. That was when they'd found each other, and somehow survived the insane daily horror together to be liberated by the Allies in 1945. Eventually they'd made their way to London, and started life again. The old woman told me: You are our fourth tenant. By pure chance, the other three were all young German men. Her smile twinkled at me: And you too are tall and fair - you look like a German. Our English friends were amazed that we could have Germans staying here - 'How can you bear it after what they did to you?' they asked. She was silent for a few moments. But it was not these young men who did it. If we'd blamed them, if we'd turned them away, we would have learnt nothing from our suffering, it would have been wasted. So we welcomed them, and we did not regret it. I couldn't say anything, something caught at my throat. I've seldom seen anyone so beautiful as the old woman looked to me just then. Jews were nothing new to me, there's quite a big Jewish community in South Africa. I'd had them around all my life, neighbours, friends, schoolmates, workmates. When I started a rock band there were a couple of Jewish members, I spent a lot of time with the Jewish drummer and his family, also warm, human people, kind and generous. Virtually the whole Jewish community was dead set against the apartheid system and its evils. Maybe there were some who supported it but I don't think I ever met one. Many of them actively opposed it, many were jailed for it. One didn't hear much about Israel then, nor Zionism, until 1967 and the Six-Day War, and then all my Jewish friends were wrestling with issues I didn't understand. It wasn't too long after that that I met some Israelis for the first time. They weren't supposed to have been there and I shouldn't have met them. But defence was my beat at the time, and they were military people, IDF and so on, involved in military support and collaboration with the apartheid government, in breach of the UN arms embargo against South Africa. This collaboration extended to the development of nuclear weapons, from about 1967 through the 70s and 80s. Israeli nuclear scientists visited South Africa in 1967 and later. South Africa provided Israel with 550 tons of uranium for its weapons program, Israel supplied South Africa with tritium and with technical information. In 1979 they tested a bomb together in the South Atlantic. Israel was involved with the apartheid regime in other ways. There was intelligence collaboration, military training IIRC, also IIRC involvement in training and arming black militias during the civil war phase of the 80s. And so on. Good friends, Israel and white
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Imagine if we were investing the $100+ Billion dollars we are spending on this war in renewable energy... That might actualy solve something! I bet with a the few hundred billion we have and will be blowing (literaly) in Iraq, we could pretty much get the US off of oil... or at least set us on the road in a big way. Just day dreaming about a rational world... - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith I've no choice but to work with the two quotes you've provided, one of them from me, in which I did not as you allege praise Luc mightily nor even unmightily for anything, nor have I yet expressed any opinion on the substance of any of his posts. I haven't noticed anyone praising Luc for raising these topics. I fail to see how you can extract this from my quote above, or from anything I've said about it. My point was clear, Luc provided some substantiation for his views, Arthur provided no substantiation at all for his highly contemptuous dismissal of them, and that doesn't fly here, whether it's in discussing Judaism and Zionism or whether unwashed biodiesel can damage your motor. Please explain what you mean. What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, There is no indication of that, I've made no such comments, nor implied it in any way, and it's not the case. By topic I meant the general topic of Oil and Israel, which you started, and for which you seem to have some enthusiasm, such as in this statement (below) on your part. If your decision to post this topic, and your subsequent ardent (as far as I can see) discussion of the matter doesn't mean that you're glad to see the topic come up as overdue for hashing out, then that is something I misread. What has all this off-topic crap got to do with biofuels? LOL! Oil and Israel, what a subject - I knew it was a can of worms when I posted it. The industrialised world, but particularly the US, is addicted to oil, and behaves just like any other addict when confronted with the prospect of cold turkey. More than that, Israel and the Middle East issue have long been the most dangerous thing in the world, and now, as well as the oil supplies and the sheer irrationality that goes with that (along with a severely confused and polarised US population), we have a bunch of religious extremist fanatics with a grip on the White House and the Pentagon who seem to see their salvation in actually fomenting war in the Middle East - they WANT it! And we also have a multi-cultural, global mailing list where probably all these warring interests are represented, and many more besides, where there is no majority, and which is devoted to energy issues and sustainability. And there's nothing strikingly sustainable about the Oil and Israel scenario, is there? [etc.] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Foolishness and a Perfect Waste was Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Alex, You still don't get. So you are impliing that if its a lie you don't care? I implied and said no such thing. But you certainly do choose to infer what is convenient to your form of ceaseless and useless antagonism. Apparently you believe that if you push and cajole, bait and brow beat long enough that others will either tire and leave you to pontificate unabashed, allow themselves to be sidetracked by your dissonant reasoning or stoop to your level of foolishness. To be perfectly blunt laddie, since you have yet to get the hint, I'll be damned and go to hell long before I pay heed to someone as biased and prone to attack as youself - especially when it comes to matters of what is or isn't anyone's truth. To be more completely honest, you've robbed yourself of all credibility as a result of your manipulative, intentionally distorting and abusive approach. I don't agree with you based upon that alone, leaving there no point and purpose to go beyond that facade. As for It seems to me that Lus is a friend of yours. Your repeated misrepresentation of such matters is nothing short of exact proof of your intent and level of character, or perhaps more precise, your lack thereof. The suggestion to you is to go find another sandbox where your foolishness is better appreciated. Good day. - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Todd: Appal Energy wrote: Alex, You seem to think that it's my place to determine whether one person or another is speaking the truth about your pet religion and all its peculiarities, nuances and distinctions. It's not. Nor do I care for it to be. So you are impliing that if its a lie you don't care? My opinion on only one matter was stated. That was relative to the needless, hate-filled and derogatory personal attack that was issued upon a list member, one who quite frankly has offered up considerably more substantiation for his opinions than you, Arthur and Matt combined up to this point. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/35008 Unfortunately, rather than address line item by line item, the lot of you prefer to exhibit violent outgassing in public space and continue to do so. Ok, this is what the line says: :This letter also regects Talmud , otherwice known as The Oral Law much to their credit as this Talmud is again the ruling factor in the action...where killing non-jews is considered as an offering in sacrifice to God. My reply: 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. There is nothing in Talmud which says that killing of non-jews is a sacrifice to God. 3. Talmud in fact deals with issue of non-jews and says that jews should treat non-jews no differently then jews. Also only animals are used as a sacrifice to God. Therefore I conclude that Luc posted whole bunch of lies pertaining to Jewish religion. Do you agree? Hardly a responsible approach. Hardly one that instills better understanding. And hardly one that generates much sentiment other than disgust and disdain for those who erupt in violent rage and . Gandhi or Mother Theresa the three of you certainly are not. Why does he has to use out right lies as an argument? To influence unconvinced? To demonize Jewish people? I'm sure Gandhi or Mother Theresa wouldn't like this approach. I'm agains demonizing any group of prople, being it German, Palestinians or other group. I think that every one has to be responsible for what he does on individual basis. As for my personal happiness? This is now twice that you and your lot have suffered your opinion upon me, solely because I have neither need or desire to tolerate your uncontrolled rage, assinigned idealism and pettiness. Frankly? The only thing that makes my day unpleasant is having to tolerate the Arthurs, Alexs and Matts of this world. Once such obstacles are relegated to their appropriate level of insignificance life unfailingly saunters on quite happily. It seems to me that Lus is a friend of yours. There is a saying - tell me who is your friend and I tell who you are... Alex Good day. [Permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth and violence. --Mahatma Gandhi] - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Todd, 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. Oral law was developed during the time of receiving of 10 commandments, when Moses was a judge and didn't have enough time to preside over all the cases , so he appointed Judges. Their rulings became a base for an oral law, which was later recorded in books. It encompasses many aspects of Jewish life including marital relationship, agriculture
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Keith Addison wrote: big snip The two unmentionables about Iraq are suddenly getting mentioned. The real reasons for the attack on Iraq had nothing to do with WMDs, that ultimate red herring. The real reasons: oil and Israel. One reason cited for it's being unmentionable: you get attacked and accused of being an anti-Semite. Interesting and relevant history, Keith. Thank you! You've increased my understanding tremendously. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Keith Addison wrote: big snip The two unmentionables about Iraq are suddenly getting mentioned. The real reasons for the attack on Iraq had nothing to do with WMDs, that ultimate red herring. The real reasons: oil and Israel. One reason cited for it's being unmentionable: you get attacked and accused of being an anti-Semite. Interesting and relevant history, Keith. Thank you! You've increased my understanding tremendously. :-) Ah Robert, then life must be worthwhile if I'm able to do such a thing. Thankyou! Anyway, what it amounts to is that what we have here now is a Zionist spin unfriendly zone, for the use of, where such things can be discussed openly, without fear or favour. That doesn't mean we're anti-Israel, nor anti-Israeli, nor particularly pro- anybody either, as ever it depends, case by case. It definitely doesn't mean any of the things colonial Zionism would have it mean, that bankrupt tactic will not be countenanced. This is such a fraught issue in some circles that perhaps a comparison would be in order, with another somewhat fraught issue. This is also a Wise Use spin unfriendly zone, and that doesn't necessarily mean we're automatically pro- the environment groups (there's a lot of evidence that we're not), Greens, liberals, left-wingers or Democrats, nor automatically against corporations, conservatives, right-wingers or Republicans - again it depends, case by case. Personally, I'm not even automatically pro-biofuels, it depends who's doing it and how. There are biofuels and biofuels, as we all know. We're against spin, manipulative propaganda, dishonesty, unfairness, disinformation, obfuscation and dissembly, and any unprincipled behaviour that disempowers ordinary people and their communities. Thankyou Robert - best wishes Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Todd, 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. Oral law was developed during the time of receiving of 10 commandments, when Moses was a judge and didn't have enough time to preside over all the cases , so he appointed Judges. Their rulings became a base for an oral law, which was later recorded in books. It encompasses many aspects of Jewish life including marital relationship, agriculture, business and so forth. 3. Jewish religion is not a sect and there is no other oral documents - everything is documented in books and interpreted from the books. Can you point out exactly to what Luc said which was true in your opinion? We all have our limited life to live and we all make our choices. Some choices make us happier then others. I'm happy with my believes. You don't sound very happy though. Alex Appal Energy wrote: Alex, I believe that you are in error as to what you think you did in your post. What I suggested was that the least you could do is post something more than generalities and your opinion, especially if your attempt is to support the claim of liar. - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith T [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
What wrong with calling white - white and black - black? Alex Appal Energy wrote: That's incorrect. What I did state and should have been inferred by anyone with eyes not clouded with fear, hate or rage was that the ensuing personal assaults were uncalled for. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Nazis were bloody killers of innocents. Israelis are figting bloody killers to protect innocents. Alex Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
HAHA..ROFLMAO!! I'm glad that someone else knows about that. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. = Jason Gnatowsky They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Alex, You seem to think that it's my place to determine whether one person or another is speaking the truth about your pet religion and all its peculiarities, nuances and distinctions. It's not. Nor do I care for it to be. You also seem to think that I care to be drawn into your pettiness and warmongoring. I do not. My opinion on only one matter was stated. That was relative to the needless, hate-filled and derogatory personal attack that was issued upon a list member, one who quite frankly has offered up considerably more substantiation for his opinions than you, Arthur and Matt combined up to this point. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/35008 Unfortunately, rather than address line item by line item, the lot of you prefer to exhibit violent outgassing in public space and continue to do so. Hardly a responsible approach. Hardly one that instills better understanding. And hardly one that generates much sentiment other than disgust and disdain for those who erupt in violent rage and . Gandhi or Mother Theresa the three of you certainly are not. As for my personal happiness? This is now twice that you and your lot have suffered your opinion upon me, solely because I have neither need or desire to tolerate your uncontrolled rage, assinigned idealism and pettiness. Frankly? The only thing that makes my day unpleasant is having to tolerate the Arthurs, Alexs and Matts of this world. Once such obstacles are relegated to their appropriate level of insignificance life unfailingly saunters on quite happily. Good day. [Permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth and violence. --Mahatma Gandhi] - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Todd, 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. Oral law was developed during the time of receiving of 10 commandments, when Moses was a judge and didn't have enough time to preside over all the cases , so he appointed Judges. Their rulings became a base for an oral law, which was later recorded in books. It encompasses many aspects of Jewish life including marital relationship, agriculture, business and so forth. 3. Jewish religion is not a sect and there is no other oral documents - everything is documented in books and interpreted from the books. Can you point out exactly to what Luc said which was true in your opinion? We all have our limited life to live and we all make our choices. Some choices make us happier then others. I'm happy with my believes. You don't sound very happy though. Alex Appal Energy wrote: Alex, I believe that you are in error as to what you think you did in your post. What I suggested was that the least you could do is post something more than generalities and your opinion, especially if your attempt is to support the claim of liar. - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith T [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Wake up laddie. Launching missiles into public spaces is no less murderous than bombing a bus. Indiscriminate killing is exactly that, no matter by who's hand. The only thing that prevents you from seeing this and numerous other aberrations is the one blind eye that you keep turned to reality. - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Nazis were bloody killers of innocents. Israelis are figting bloody killers to protect innocents. Alex Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
MM You make chains of dubious connections. I've no choice but to work with the two quotes you've provided, one of them from me, in which I did not as you allege praise Luc mightily nor even unmightily for anything, nor have I yet expressed any opinion on the substance of any of his posts. I haven't noticed anyone praising Luc for raising these topics. I fail to see how you can extract this from my quote above, or from anything I've said about it. My point was clear, Luc provided some substantiation for his views, Arthur provided no substantiation at all for his highly contemptuous dismissal of them, and that doesn't fly here, whether it's in discussing Judaism and Zionism or whether unwashed biodiesel can damage your motor. Please explain what you mean. What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, There is no indication of that, I've made no such comments, nor implied it in any way, and it's not the case. If you wish to interpret such a silence as loud, then you should consider that that might be saying more about you than it does about me. and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. And-or? What does that mean, and-or? You want nice, clearcut, polarised sides, for-us and against-us? I doubt very much that Todd and I have any idea whether we agree on these issues or not. We do appear to agree that, REGARDLESS OF THE SUBSTANCE OF HIS ARGUMENTS, the manner in which Luc has been attacked lacks integrity. The four of you (I'll have to include you now) just can't see that obvious distinction. I expected that, and pointed it out in the first place, a strange thing to have to do: Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Yet Arthur, for one, will apparently ignore anything that needs ignoring in order to conclude that I'm supporting Luc's views on The Protocols so he can write me off as a Nazi or whatever as well. I'll be very damn' generous and conclude that it's a blind spot rather than intentional, which is one hell of a lot more generous than he's been, and the rest of you too. and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. Not in either case. Go and have another look. You're seeing things that aren't there, neither said nor implied. I wonder why that might be? I have expressed no opinion on Luc's comments, nor has any such opinion been implied, and I believe that to be the case with Todd as well. I haven't responded to any of Luc's posts in this thread. In response to Matt, I made some points to distinguish Zionism from Judaism, without commenting on Luc's posts. I asked Matt if he saw an attack on Zionism as anti-Semitic, and asked Luc if he was bashing Jews or bashing Zionists. Matt didn't respond, Luc did, and I haven't responded to Luc's response. If I have erroneously spoken for you then I apologize. You have. But this is a very backhanded apology and I don't accept it. Maybe I should have said that he is being strongly supported at least in his right to continue the topic. You'd be wrong again, there's no indication of that either. I said it was up to him whether he chose to defend himself against these attacks, not the same thing at all. You'd deny him that? You might notice that he has not defended himself - he's sent several other posts on different topics but hasn't responded at all to being called a liar, a hate-filled Nazi, the kind of person that brings death and destruction to the world, an instrument of Satan and so on and on by people who've made just such specious misconnections as you have and have offered nothing by way of substance to justify their attacks. Unlike Luc. Look at their proof - white is white and black is black and Luc is a liar. Look at this circular argument: My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. From which it must therefore most obviously follow that if I disagree with such a specious argument then I'm necessarily supporting Luc and agree with the Protocols. That's pure BS. Yet you say this: conversation, and further there are generally accepted and I think valuable principles of politesse, civility, friendliness and I guess dialectic standards by which I mean we try to hold ourselves to some sort of standard for good thinking. It puzzles me how this can co-exist with the rest of your post. However, enough time and effort seems to be put forth by you in responding to Luc's detractors that I was surprised by the lack of any response to his introduction into the conversation of what I take to be stands-out-like-a-sore-thumb low-level anti-semitic drivel. See above, above and above. His substantiation
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Todd: Appal Energy wrote: Alex, You seem to think that it's my place to determine whether one person or another is speaking the truth about your pet religion and all its peculiarities, nuances and distinctions. It's not. Nor do I care for it to be. So you are impliing that if its a lie you don't care? My opinion on only one matter was stated. That was relative to the needless, hate-filled and derogatory personal attack that was issued upon a list member, one who quite frankly has offered up considerably more substantiation for his opinions than you, Arthur and Matt combined up to this point. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/35008 Unfortunately, rather than address line item by line item, the lot of you prefer to exhibit violent outgassing in public space and continue to do so. Ok, this is what the line says: :This letter also regects Talmud , otherwice known as The Oral Law much to their credit as this Talmud is again the ruling factor in the action...where killing non-jews is considered as an offering in sacrifice to God. My reply: 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. There is nothing in Talmud which says that killing of non-jews is a sacrifice to God. 3. Talmud in fact deals with issue of non-jews and says that jews should treat non-jews no differently then jews. Also only animals are used as a sacrifice to God. Therefore I conclude that Luc posted whole bunch of lies pertaining to Jewish religion. Do you agree? Hardly a responsible approach. Hardly one that instills better understanding. And hardly one that generates much sentiment other than disgust and disdain for those who erupt in violent rage and . Gandhi or Mother Theresa the three of you certainly are not. Why does he has to use out right lies as an argument? To influence unconvinced? To demonize Jewish people? I'm sure Gandhi or Mother Theresa wouldn't like this approach. I'm agains demonizing any group of prople, being it German, Palestinians or other group. I think that every one has to be responsible for what he does on individual basis. As for my personal happiness? This is now twice that you and your lot have suffered your opinion upon me, solely because I have neither need or desire to tolerate your uncontrolled rage, assinigned idealism and pettiness. Frankly? The only thing that makes my day unpleasant is having to tolerate the Arthurs, Alexs and Matts of this world. Once such obstacles are relegated to their appropriate level of insignificance life unfailingly saunters on quite happily. It seems to me that Lus is a friend of yours. There is a saying - tell me who is your friend and I tell who you are... Alex Good day. [Permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth and violence. --Mahatma Gandhi] - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Todd, 1. Talmud is a written commentaries to Torah, not an oral law. 2. Oral law was developed during the time of receiving of 10 commandments, when Moses was a judge and didn't have enough time to preside over all the cases , so he appointed Judges. Their rulings became a base for an oral law, which was later recorded in books. It encompasses many aspects of Jewish life including marital relationship, agriculture, business and so forth. 3. Jewish religion is not a sect and there is no other oral documents - everything is documented in books and interpreted from the books. Can you point out exactly to what Luc said which was true in your opinion? We all have our limited life to live and we all make our choices. Some choices make us happier then others. I'm happy with my believes. You don't sound very happy though. Alex Appal Energy wrote: Alex, I believe that you are in error as to what you think you did in your post. What I suggested was that the least you could do is post something more than generalities and your opinion, especially if your attempt is to support the claim of liar. - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith T [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non
Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:47:56 -0400, you wrote: Hallo MM, The problem we have here is twofold. First, just as the phrase national security hides a lot of sins (so to speak), the phrase anti-semite intimidates and silences a lot of tongues and pens. This is why there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. It is all too common for anyone, particularly someone with a name such as mine, who voices any criticism of Israel regardless of whether the criticism is deserved or not to be smeared and marginalized as an anti-semite, bigot, nazi, whatever. If a Jew happens to be the one doing the criticism then they are promptly labelled a self-hating Jew. This happens not only even, but particularly if the criticism is deserved. People have lost their livlihoods by saying the wrong thing even if the wrong thing happened to be true. Yes. I think that this Protocols mention, and having an explanation asked of me, put me over the top. Normally I would not make an accusation of a comment being inherently anti-semitic (or even bother with the topic, or even think it), but my understanding was (perhaps no longer) that invocation of the Protocols is generally accepted to be just nonsense and that it should be met with disdain as signalling inherently racist nonsense. I think I failed to examine this assumption. [...] Murdoch this was not something personal to you but general to the list. I thought you had it right with your *no comment* comment. Thanks, but outside of your one lone opinion, it apparently warrants a massive negative response. Things like this have to be faced squarely and honestly and the emotional baggage which normally accompanies topics such as this. Well, thanks for your opinions. And now my friends, sorry for the length (sort of). :o) Happy Happy, Gustl Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:05:55 -0500, you wrote: Murdoch, What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. That's incorrect. What I did state and should have been inferred by anyone with eyes not clouded with fear, hate or rage was that the ensuing personal assaults were uncalled for. Thank you for taking the time to make this correction. I have just now re-read through your posts on this topic and see that what you're specifically doing is responding to the personal assaults, as you say. As a result of such expression, those who were so wantonly careless in their intent would choose to paint anyone who disagrees with their obnoxious behavior as being for or against a person or any practice that was mentioned.or alluded to. That's ignorance of a rather high order (or disorder if you like), upon which no one should have to expend the light of day. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Arthur Sauerhaft wrote: I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? I'll tell you that tomorrow, never fear, but right now it's late and I'm going to sleep. Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? :-) Perhaps you'd care to tell me just what you've based that assumption on, as there's nothing at all here to support it. Nazis, eh, Arthur? Ever met one? You think you guys have got some sort of franchise on all this stuff? I'll tell you a story. It's a true story. I'm a journalist. I used to be a South African. I worked mostly for the black press there, not a very common pursuit during the dark days of the white racist apartheid era in the 60s and 70s. I was deeply involved in black issues and kept getting into trouble as a result. Eventually I got arrested and fled, left the country for a while to let things cool down. I went to London, got a job in Fleet Street and rented a studio flat belonging to an old couple in Hampstead. They both met me at the door when I arrived there, a small woman and a tall man. They stared at me, then looked quickly at each other, and asked me in. I seemed to make an instant hit - they couldn't do enough to make me feel welcome. There was something intensely warm and human about them, and we quickly became friends. They were really in love - they'd been together for 25 years, and doted on each other like a young couple. One evening we were sitting together in their kitchen drinking coffee, and they told me their story. They were German Jews, and they'd met in a Nazi death camp during World War 2. They'd been interned with their whole families, and each had watched all their loved ones taken off to die, one by one, spouses, children, parents, until each was the only one left alive. That was when they'd found each other, and somehow survived the insane daily horror together to be liberated by the Allies in 1945. Eventually they'd made their way to London, and started life again. The old woman told me: You are our fourth tenant. By pure chance, the other three were all young German men. Her smile twinkled at me: And you too are tall and fair - you look like a German. Our English friends were amazed that we could have Germans staying here - 'How can you bear it after what they did to you?' they asked. She was silent for a few moments. But it was not these young men who did it. If we'd blamed them, if we'd turned them away, we would have learnt nothing from our suffering, it would have been wasted. So we welcomed them, and we did not regret it. I couldn't say anything, something caught at my throat. I've seldom seen anyone so beautiful as the old woman looked to me just then. Jews were nothing new to me, there's quite a big Jewish community in South Africa. I'd had them around all my life, neighbours, friends, schoolmates, workmates. When I started a rock band there were a couple of Jewish members, I spent a lot of time with the Jewish drummer and his family, also warm, human people, kind and generous. Virtually the whole Jewish community was dead set against the apartheid system and its evils. Maybe there were some who supported it but I don't think I ever met one. Many of them actively opposed it, many were jailed for it. One didn't hear much about Israel then, nor Zionism, until 1967 and the Six-Day War, and then all my Jewish friends were wrestling with issues I didn't understand. It wasn't too long after that that I met some Israelis for the first time. They weren't supposed to have been there and I shouldn't have met them. But defence was my beat at the time, and they were military people, IDF and so on, involved in military support and collaboration with the apartheid government, in breach of the UN arms embargo against South Africa. This collaboration extended to the development of nuclear weapons, from about 1967 through the 70s and 80s. Israeli nuclear scientists visited South Africa in 1967 and later. South Africa provided Israel with 550 tons of uranium for its weapons program, Israel supplied South Africa with tritium and with technical information. In 1979 they tested a bomb together in the South Atlantic. Israel was involved with the apartheid regime in other ways. There was intelligence collaboration, military training IIRC, also IIRC involvement in training and arming black militias during the civil war phase of the 80s. And so on. Good friends, Israel and white racist South Africa during its most oppressive stage. So what has all this got to do with anything? This: John Vorster, South Africa's arch-racist Prime Minister from 1966 to 1978, was a Nazi. Let's get this straight: Vorster was not a Nazi sympathiser, he was a Nazi, by word and by deed, and there was nothing particularly unusual about it. In the mid-1970s at the height of the
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Todd, Obviously what is ugly and hateful to me are legitimate and acceptable to you. I saw very little discussion of facts in this thread and very much Zionist bashing propaganda. Know your sources of information, question it's authenticity. I do not see my attack as unwarranted, spreading these vile lies is reason for attack. These lies are responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews and other people (Christian Clergy, Gays , Gypsies, Communists..) Yes, little children know better , they never stop questioning. As for my apology , it was directed at the mostly good people on this list who have to suffer this thread. Arthur Appal Energy wrote: Arthur Sauerhaft, How about putting a muzzle on your ugly and hateful comments? Discussing or airing perceptions, perspectives and viewpoints is not being ugly or hateful. On the other hand, your intentionally derogatory personal attacks are and your bitter and unwarranted assault further substantiates the general perception of the radical nature of Zionism and -ists. As for your apology? No. It is not accepted, as you knew from the onset how far in the wrong you were going to be, yet you didn't care. Little children know better. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of truths and binding them to lies. Jews who are not Zionists can mostly be divided into two groups, those that are not Zionist for theoligical reasons tied into the coming of the Messiah (like Rabbi Teitelbaum) , and left wing liberals who in my opinion care less about remaining Jewish and more about being respected in their circles as politically correct Humanists. This is material for another thread on another list. Rabbi Teitlebaum is more concerned about his small Chasidic sect being the subject of secular Jewish rulings that do not coincide with his interpretation of trditional Jewish law. I, as an observant Jew respect his opinion but I do not agree with it. I would also argue that most Jews, secular and observant, are Zionists to different degrees. There are many different definitions within the Jewish community about what Zionism is , but the central belief is that Israel, as a Jewish state has the right to exist. What it's borders are and how it is governed is another debate. Your exceptional naivete (to be generous) and your insensitivity to regarding your previous posting quoting things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just proves your ignorance. These documents are proven scams and hate literature. I am suprised you do not quote Mein Kampf(sp?) and proclaim Hitler and the Grand Inquisitors as tellers of great truths. You also probably wake up each morning(after checking the horizon for the black helicopters of the Apocalypse) looking for a reason why your own life is unsatifactory and blame anyone but yourself. It is so easy to imagine all the forces of the world conspired against you rather than working out real solutions to your own shortcomings. Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Luc, you must take your name really seriously, spreading hatred and lies to the ignorant, isn't your name short for Lucifer. -Arthur Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Actually Luc was telling many lies about Jewish theology. Talmud is in fact a written commentaries to Torah. It was created over the centuries by some of the greatest minds. If you go to any bookstore you can buy it there. There is an oral law as well, which was recorded into books many hundreds of years ago, you can buy them in a bookstore. This oral law deals with many very complex issues , and there is nothing of the appalling things Luc was telling about. So much for interesting theological facts. In this respect I also keep thinking of an entity called a great deceiver, the one who is here to maim, kill and destroy. Alex Hakan Falk wrote: Arthur, I am puzzled, have looked through the thread and have large difficulties to find any I hate the Jews in it. I find some interesting ideological and theological facts in it, but expressed in a respectful and objective way. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Murdoch, Thanks for your suport on some issues and disagreement with others. Just for the record, most Jews don't consider themselves a race, that is an almost ancient way of depicting Jews as physically/spiritually different from the Human race. It is also a major foundation for much Jew hating most recently in the Middle East. Also my remarks refer to Jews who choose to indentify as Jews. respectfully, -Arthur murdoch wrote: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:37:11 +0200, you wrote: Arthur, I am puzzled, have looked through the thread and have large difficulties to find any I hate the Jews in it. I find some interesting ideological and theological facts in it, but expressed in a respectful and objective way. I find no reasons for this nobody likes us postings. They would be more interesting without this below the belt Lucifer things. Hakan I haven't read many posts in this (or other) threads that I entirely agree with, or entirely disagree with. 1. With respect to your response to Arthur's comments, I agree with you that he detracted from his own comments by descending into his personal diatribe. 2. On the other hand I was a little relieved to hear Arthur question Luc's raising of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I stopped reading most of Luc's comments directly not only when he raised this, but given the manner in which he did so, and was disappointed in the group that this and perhaps a few other of his comments were not challenged more strongly. This is not to dismiss everything out-of-hand that Luc has said. If someone wishes to take his comments on a point-by-point basis and separate what they think is the bad from the good, that's their affair. But I do not have much time, and reading his ham-handed attempt to insert that particular topic into what are probably in-need-of-discussion areas was a signal to me that my time could be better spent elsewhere, and if we care about the overall controversial topic, then I thought I might find better reading of it elsewhere. 2A): With respect to the issue of being on the lookout for a I hate the Jews comment, I don't think that a hater or irrational-agenda non-transparent-agenda person (of any sort) is going to make it that easy for us. While you may not have intended for that method to be taken so literally, I think it is worth using your comment as a launching point for spelling this out to be aware that not everyone is going to say everything they think in precisely the terms they think it particularly if it could have them banned or get them ostracized or cause their remarks to be less read. 3. I tend to agree with Keith and Todd and others that generally the unconditional-support-for-Israel by the American Government and Fourth Estate is overdue for public discourse, though I may disagree with them on many or all of the answers that we get or how we should pose the questions. 4. Religion: I regard one's personal religious or philosophic beliefs as arguably the most important aspect of one's life. Others may not agree, explicitly or in their hearts. Some may regard their political orientation (e.g. Conservative, Social Democrat, whatever), or their so-called race (Chinese, White, some variant, whatever... is there even scientifically such a thing if we are all the human race?) or their citizenship (French, Chinese, Nigerian, whatever) as the de facto thing they spent the most time thinking about. Some hobbies or interests may even be elevated to near-supremely-important-to-us status. Others may have a different way of approaching these important questions, speaking about their work, their loved ones, their wealth, their health, etc. But I think some would agree that one's belief system and following it (for want of better words) is the most important thing in one's life. Most of us 6,000,000,000+ on this planet believe that we choose this system, and have the right to change our minds and-or assert at some point when we become adults what we are, and-or what we are not. Some of us us have personal beliefs (or anti-beliefs) which do not fit so readily into the conventional labels frequently provided in press discussions of these issues. I don't know the numbers in part because the mainstream press discussions are so infrequent. But it is not just a matter of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shinto-ism, Other. That Other may be much bigger and far more robust and diverse than one might glean from such a listing. It may be very non-Theistic for some (including myself). Furthermore, of those who may identify themselves with the prior more well-defined listings, many may or may not in reality practice or believe or be knowledgeable about them. There are many who might have mixed thoughts, or not thoughts, or some variants on those themes. In some countries (including America I think) we generally try to practice the courtesy of allowing a person to say I am
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. From this and several other things, whether or not this applies to Luc, it might well apply to you: Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any respect. By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. Keith I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of truths and binding them to lies. Jews who are not Zionists can mostly be divided into two groups, those that are not Zionist for theoligical reasons tied into the coming of the Messiah (like Rabbi Teitelbaum) , and left wing liberals who in my opinion care less about remaining Jewish and more about being respected in their circles as politically correct Humanists. This is material for another thread on another list. Rabbi Teitlebaum is more concerned about his small Chasidic sect being the subject of secular Jewish rulings that do not coincide with his interpretation of trditional Jewish law. I, as an observant Jew respect his opinion but I do not agree with it. I would also argue that most Jews, secular and observant, are Zionists to different degrees. There are many different definitions within the Jewish community about what Zionism is , but the central belief is that Israel, as a Jewish state has the right to exist. What it's borders are and how it is governed is another debate. Your exceptional naivete (to be generous) and your insensitivity to regarding your previous posting quoting things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just proves your ignorance. These documents are proven scams and hate literature. I am suprised you do not quote Mein Kampf(sp?) and proclaim Hitler and the Grand Inquisitors as tellers of great truths. You also probably wake up each morning(after checking the horizon for the black helicopters of the Apocalypse) looking for a reason why your own life is unsatifactory and blame anyone but yourself. It is so easy to imagine all the forces of the world conspired against you rather than working out real solutions to your own shortcomings. Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Luc, you must take your name really seriously, spreading hatred and lies to the ignorant, isn't your name short for Lucifer. -Arthur Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Alex, Rather than calling another a liar under the guise of politeness, why not point out whatever errors exist somewhat more precisely as well as indicating any accuracies. For those of us who could almost give one whit less about the minutia of organized religion, whether having experienced their destructive capacities either first or second hand, a little more precision would serve far better than sweeping generalities prepositioned as theological facts. In this manner your comment is every bit as useless as Arthur Sauerhaft's. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Actually Luc was telling many lies about Jewish theology. Talmud is in fact a written commentaries to Torah. It was created over the centuries by some of the greatest minds. If you go to any bookstore you can buy it there. There is an oral law as well, which was recorded into books many hundreds of years ago, you can buy them in a bookstore. This oral law deals with many very complex issues , and there is nothing of the appalling things Luc was telling about. So much for interesting theological facts. In this respect I also keep thinking of an entity called a great deceiver, the one who is here to maim, kill and destroy. Alex Hakan Falk wrote: Arthur, I am puzzled, have looked through the thread and have large difficulties to find any I hate the Jews in it. I find some interesting ideological and theological facts in it, but expressed in a respectful and objective way. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Todd, I think I generally outlined why I considered Luc's writing a bunch of lies. I can direct you to the source to find it out first hand - go to any Jewish bookstore or the library, you will find wealth of information there - lots of books. Some people spend their entire life studying them. May be you'll like it and become a Jewish scholar too! Alex Appal Energy wrote: Alex, Rather than calling another a liar under the guise of politeness, why not point out whatever errors exist somewhat more precisely as well as indicating any accuracies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Intentional or not, the thread isn't necessarily over, but you definitely lose. A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. From this and several other things, whether or not this applies to Luc, it might well apply to you: Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any respect. By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. Keith I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:49:39 +0900, you wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. [...] Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any respect. I've read through a few of Luc's comments and found them worth some consideration. However, I haven't read much, in part because of this, from May 27: Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:31:28 - A Clean Break - Strategy for Securing the Realm. Pay attention to the signatories. http://www.irmep.org/Policy_Briefs/3_27_2003_Clean_Break_or_Dirty_War .html There's still more to it than that, but lest I be labelled a conspiracy nut it shall remain as such :), but then I don't really care who labels me with what so here goes anyway: In conjunction with the above Clean Break document written by the main instigators of the Iraq invasion we pony it up to another much maligned document whose authenticity was declared a forgery by a Swiss court, but then that judgement was overturned as unsubstantiated but it is only the original denigration that is publicised for obvious propaganda value; the document of course is The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion outlining a world control strategy whom some have theorised was actually originally written by none other than Myer Amschtel Rothschild when he was setting up his world banking empire. http://www.usa-the-republic.com/illuminati/zion.html is where to go read it. It would seem odd that a forgery (normally a copy of an original) would hold information that is now common fact in the world we live in. A coincidence? Does the sun rise everyday by chance? As I am not a scholar on this document, but was more offended, as I said, by the manner in which the topic of the document was raised, I'd like to ask if anyone here has any response to this analysis of Luc's. If Luc is to be praised so mightily for raising topics that take some analysis and effort and (arguably) courage in the face of established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hi Keith, I never thought it was possible to win ,but it is still important to keep fighting the fight, I posted this sight Subsequently. http://skepdic.com/protocols.html as some substantiation as to the intent and origins of the Protocols. Did you follow the link? This work was created as fiction that was distorted into fact. I am not arguing with you about the intent and origins of the Protocols. As you know. you state: Silly land grabs and commodity wars? Silly? I guess that's one way of putting it. Indeed ideology is the biggest killer, and it certainly has a very great deal to do with silly land grabs and commodity wars, which is in fact what his thread is all about. /* this was what the thread was about, that has evolved. It's still what the thread is about, and you fail to answer the question. you state: */We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. *are you saying the Protocols are legitimate? I'm saying exactly what I said. You provided no substantiation for your dismissal of someone else's views, you were most contemptuous about it, and my requiring more than that from you, in accordance with the way this list operates (as does all normal human discourse) IN NO WAY means or implies that I agree with the person you're disagreeing with. This, it seems, was somewhat prescient, wasn't it? Now perhaps some sort of my enemy's enemy is my friend type thinking may lead you to conclude that I'm defending Luc. I'm not defending Luc, that's up to him, if he chooses to, but I am attacking you. Hmm? I must admit, I've never heard of Godwin's Law, and I've lost by that standard, but when if not in this case is it appropriate to mention the Nazi's or Hitler? I'll tell you that tomorrow, never fear, but right now it's late and I'm going to sleep. Is is that these things should never be spoken of, or better yet forgotten? :-) Perhaps you'd care to tell me just what you've based that assumption on, as there's nothing at all here to support it. You state: *A couple of comments: First, because you personally find it ugly and hateful does not necessarily mean that those were its intentions - you assume that, fail to examine it, fail to establish it, and then lash out on an unsubstantiated basis with a personal attack. *My attack was substantiated by the using the Protocols as a basis for his argument which further my claim that his arguments are ugly and hateful. You have failed to establish that. Your argument is circular. You lose on just about every count by now, not just Godwin's Law. you state: */* */By the way, Lucifer means bearer of light, it was Satan's name and role before the Fall. *I did not know that, but i believe my point was clear. You made yourself clear. Keith, did you choose not to post my replies to others yesterday? or was it part of list technical problems yesterday? I still value my right to express my opinion, although you may not agree with me on other issues or the way I express myself, i know you we share at least that common value. You (only you, though there were many others in the same position) wrote to me about this offlist (rather peremptorily), I replied that the line was down. You have trouble accepting that? You'd sent eight posts, four of which were duplicates, the other four went through as soon as it was possible. I haven't checked if they all arrived, why wouldn't they? You tell Todd you don't know whether your reply to him got through or not so you repost it, but it's there. If I can see it why can't you? By the way, I said we're all entitled to express our opinions, you say it's your right, not quite the same. Just for the record, this is not a public place where people have rights, it's more like a private club, you have to be a member, which gives you privileges, and with the privileges come obligations, if you ignore the obligations you lose the privileges, same as any other club. All opinions are welcome, all behaviour however might not be welcome. Netiquette applies, as do the universal rules of discourse, and there are a few list rules. I don't make the rules but I do apply them. Other than that, and that it's me that has to maintain the thing, I'm just another list member. I do not choose not to post people's replies unless it's for good reason, in which case they'd most certainly be told about it, and why. Keith Addison -Arthur * Keith Addison wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. In case you don't know it: Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hello MM Please see below. On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:49:39 +0900, you wrote: Hello Arthur You lose! I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. [...] Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some references and links, which you dismiss as proven scams and hate literature and liken them to Mein Kampf. It just doesn't work that way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any respect. I've read through a few of Luc's comments and found them worth some consideration. However, I haven't read much, in part because of this, from May 27: Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:31:28 - A Clean Break - Strategy for Securing the Realm. Pay attention to the signatories. http://www.irmep.org/Policy_Briefs/3_27_2003_Clean_Break_or_Dirty_War .html There's still more to it than that, but lest I be labelled a conspiracy nut it shall remain as such :), but then I don't really care who labels me with what so here goes anyway: In conjunction with the above Clean Break document written by the main instigators of the Iraq invasion we pony it up to another much maligned document whose authenticity was declared a forgery by a Swiss court, but then that judgement was overturned as unsubstantiated but it is only the original denigration that is publicised for obvious propaganda value; the document of course is The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion outlining a world control strategy whom some have theorised was actually originally written by none other than Myer Amschtel Rothschild when he was setting up his world banking empire. http://www.usa-the-republic.com/illuminati/zion.html is where to go read it. It would seem odd that a forgery (normally a copy of an original) would hold information that is now common fact in the world we live in. A coincidence? Does the sun rise everyday by chance? As I am not a scholar on this document, but was more offended, as I said, by the manner in which the topic of the document was raised, I'd like to ask if anyone here has any response to this analysis of Luc's. If Luc is to be praised so mightily for raising topics that take some analysis and effort and (arguably) courage in the face of established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. I've no choice but to work with the two quotes you've provided, one of them from me, in which I did not as you allege praise Luc mightily nor even unmightily for anything, nor have I yet expressed any opinion on the substance of any of his posts. I haven't noticed anyone praising Luc for raising these topics. I fail to see how you can extract this from my quote above, or from anything I've said about it. My point was clear, Luc provided some substantiation for his views, Arthur provided no substantiation at all for his highly contemptuous dismissal of them, and that doesn't fly here, whether it's in discussing Judaism and Zionism or whether unwashed biodiesel can damage your motor. Please explain what you mean. established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. What nonsense! Aren't you doing rather the same thing? Keith MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Alex, I believe that you are in error as to what you think you did in your post. What I suggested was that the least you could do is post something more than generalities and your opinion, especially if your attempt is to support the claim of liar. I suppose that I was wrong. You managed to do even less than that. As for theological scholarship of all things Jewish? No thank you. I have virtually no use for organized religion of any flavour, nor their zealots or fringists. Hope and commonality, the two most distinguished aspects of any religion, can be found in numerous other less devisive human endeavors. And spirituality is far more abundant outside synagogue, mosque or church walls than within. God, whomever He or She may be, is surely big enough to sort everything out without human doctrines, their interpretations, application of whips or the copping (adoption) of attitudes. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith Todd, I think I generally outlined why I considered Luc's writing a bunch of lies. I can direct you to the source to find it out first hand - go to any Jewish bookstore or the library, you will find wealth of information there - lots of books. Some people spend their entire life studying them. May be you'll like it and become a Jewish scholar too! Alex Appal Energy wrote: Alex, Rather than calling another a liar under the guise of politeness, why not point out whatever errors exist somewhat more precisely as well as indicating any accuracies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
I've no choice but to work with the two quotes you've provided, one of them from me, in which I did not as you allege praise Luc mightily nor even unmightily for anything, nor have I yet expressed any opinion on the substance of any of his posts. I haven't noticed anyone praising Luc for raising these topics. I fail to see how you can extract this from my quote above, or from anything I've said about it. My point was clear, Luc provided some substantiation for his views, Arthur provided no substantiation at all for his highly contemptuous dismissal of them, and that doesn't fly here, whether it's in discussing Judaism and Zionism or whether unwashed biodiesel can damage your motor. Please explain what you mean. What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. If I have erroneously spoken for you then I apologize. Maybe I should have said that he is being strongly supported at least in his right to continue the topic. However, enough time and effort seems to be put forth by you in responding to Luc's detractors that I was surprised by the lack of any response to his introduction into the conversation of what I take to be stands-out-like-a-sore-thumb low-level anti-semitic drivel. His substantiation included this low-level drivel. Maybe it's not drivel. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's genius. established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. What nonsense! Aren't you doing rather the same thing? You don't owe me or anyone else your time, and likewise, I certainly do not regard myself as owing anyone in this group a single second of my time, with the possible exception that there is some implicit agreement to make an effort to follow up sometimes in a mutual conversation, and further there are generally accepted and I think valuable principles of politesse, civility, friendliness and I guess dialectic standards by which I mean we try to hold ourselves to some sort of standard for good thinking. It seemed to me a little bizarre that Luc made this statement and got little or no response, other than excoriation of those who were driven to the point of being maddened by him. While being maddened is not an excuse for, in some areas, poor argumentation, I did not think it inappropriate to call attention to what I thought was a very problematic statement on Luc's part. I think that I should not have implied that it's a matter of you or anyone else owing time to devote to that comment. Since I am not that willing to study the matter, and figure out whether the Protocols, and the way the topic was introduced, are properly dismissed by me as a clear symptom of nonsense, I think I was trying to get away with seeing if someone could please respond on that point. Since you apparently think my effort to get away with that has been nonsense, then I won't try further. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Murdoch, What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. That's incorrect. What I did state and should have been inferred by anyone with eyes not clouded with fear, hate or rage was that the ensuing personal assaults were uncalled for. As a result of such expression, those who were so wantonly careless in their intent would choose to paint anyone who disagrees with their obnoxious behavior as being for or against a person or any practice that was mentioned.or alluded to. That's ignorance of a rather high order (or disorder if you like), upon which no one should have to expend the light of day. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith I've no choice but to work with the two quotes you've provided, one of them from me, in which I did not as you allege praise Luc mightily nor even unmightily for anything, nor have I yet expressed any opinion on the substance of any of his posts. I haven't noticed anyone praising Luc for raising these topics. I fail to see how you can extract this from my quote above, or from anything I've said about it. My point was clear, Luc provided some substantiation for his views, Arthur provided no substantiation at all for his highly contemptuous dismissal of them, and that doesn't fly here, whether it's in discussing Judaism and Zionism or whether unwashed biodiesel can damage your motor. Please explain what you mean. What I mean is that generally you seem glad to have the topic raised, and that generally some of Luc's comments points seem to be agreed-with, by yourself and-or by Todd. If I have erroneously spoken for you then I apologize. Maybe I should have said that he is being strongly supported at least in his right to continue the topic. However, enough time and effort seems to be put forth by you in responding to Luc's detractors that I was surprised by the lack of any response to his introduction into the conversation of what I take to be stands-out-like-a-sore-thumb low-level anti-semitic drivel. His substantiation included this low-level drivel. Maybe it's not drivel. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's genius. established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. What nonsense! Aren't you doing rather the same thing? You don't owe me or anyone else your time, and likewise, I certainly do not regard myself as owing anyone in this group a single second of my time, with the possible exception that there is some implicit agreement to make an effort to follow up sometimes in a mutual conversation, and further there are generally accepted and I think valuable principles of politesse, civility, friendliness and I guess dialectic standards by which I mean we try to hold ourselves to some sort of standard for good thinking. It seemed to me a little bizarre that Luc made this statement and got little or no response, other than excoriation of those who were driven to the point of being maddened by him. While being maddened is not an excuse for, in some areas, poor argumentation, I did not think it inappropriate to call attention to what I thought was a very problematic statement on Luc's part. I think that I should not have implied that it's a matter of you or anyone else owing time to devote to that comment. Since I am not that willing to study the matter, and figure out whether the Protocols, and the way the topic was introduced, are properly dismissed by me as a clear symptom of nonsense, I think I was trying to get away with seeing if someone could please respond on that point. Since you apparently think my effort to get away with that has been nonsense, then I won't try further. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re[2]: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Hallo MM, The problem we have here is twofold. First, just as the phrase national security hides a lot of sins (so to speak), the phrase anti-semite intimidates and silences a lot of tongues and pens. This is why there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. It is all too common for anyone, particularly someone with a name such as mine, who voices any criticism of Israel regardless of whether the criticism is deserved or not to be smeared and marginalized as an anti-semite, bigot, nazi, whatever. If a Jew happens to be the one doing the criticism then they are promptly labelled a self-hating Jew. This happens not only even, but particularly if the criticism is deserved. People have lost their livlihoods by saying the wrong thing even if the wrong thing happened to be true. Second, the wrong questions are being asked and debated. People have been debating whether this document is a forgery or not. That is, in this particular case, irrelevant. What should be questioned is the content of the thing. Is what is being spelled out in the document actually coming to pass and if not then it can be ignored but if these things are actually transpiring then it behooves us to discover who is doing these things. The Protocols claim it is the Jews doing this. Fine. Then that should be demonstrable. If it is not then the people responsible for these acts should be traced down, documented and exposed for what they are. As Gandalf said, All that is gold does not glitter, not all those that wander are lost. As for me...I would rather spend my time building bridges rather than fences. I do not like being wrong and appreciate it when my mistakes are pointed out to me that I may bring myself in line with what is right. I appreciate candor and frankness and plain speech. I believe if you are innocent don't plead guilty and if you are guilty stand up andtakeyourpunishment. I also believe in self discipline/restraint/responsibility and reason. My greatest belief is in the power of loving kindness and loving service to ones fellows. Now for the plain speech. Naziism is the mirror image of Judaism as is the SS of Zionism. On the one hand we have the master race and on the other the chosen people of God. Germany had Gro§deutschland-greater Germany and Israel has eretz Israel-greater Israel. Germany occupied a good portion of Europe and Israel occupies an area 10 times greater that it was at its largest in biblical times.Germany had its concentration camps and Israel has Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan. Germany claimed to have a divine right as the master race to occupy other countries for Lebensraum (living room) but failed to provide the divine deed. Israel claims the divine right to occupy others land because this land had been given to them by God but they also have failed to produce the divine deed. If Germans were attacked there were reprisals. If Israelis are attacked there are reprisals. The list of mirrored traits goes on and on. The Israelis are neither better nor worse than the Nazis.Numbers and scope make no difference. If it did then the Chinese who slaughtered 33.5 million would win making the Nazis and Israelis both look like pikers. Human life is human life and we cannot afford to say, Well, we only killed x number and the other side killed number. Doesn't work that way. Evil is evil. Perhaps they only killed x instead of because they didn't get the chance. They still did these evil things. The problem here is that when you get large bunches of folks together they often wind up getting stupid. They tend to concentrate on what their differences are rather than their similarities. They forget that their enemies are more than likely just the same as them and in the end just people. We need things but they are just greedy. Up go the fences and defenses. But if you take one person from one side and another from another side and sit them in the kitchen over some food and just get talking you generally find, after the initial horse manure has been shoveled off, that they want the same things. They want peace and happiness, decent food and housing and educations. They don't want to control anyone or be controlled. They just want to live and raise their families in peace. They want to be reasonable human beings. It is when the herd instinct and greed come into play that things get sticky. And we humans are just wierd enough to turn on our own if we can't find an enemy on the outside. We are a curious species. There is hope however. People working with each other. Minds and hearts changing one at a time. Sacred cows and magic words being thrown by the wayside. Love and reason will have
Re[2]: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Very good Gustl, Not much I want to add, thinking about it, in fact nothing. It is also my dream that people get together and do something more productive than killing each other in the name of god (the same one) and only because of writings that we do not know the origin, motives or background of. Hakan At 22:47 02/06/2004, you wrote: Hallo MM, The problem we have here is twofold. First, just as the phrase national security hides a lot of sins (so to speak), the phrase anti-semite intimidates and silences a lot of tongues and pens. This is why there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above. It is all too common for anyone, particularly someone with a name such as mine, who voices any criticism of Israel regardless of whether the criticism is deserved or not to be smeared and marginalized as an anti-semite, bigot, nazi, whatever. If a Jew happens to be the one doing the criticism then they are promptly labelled a self-hating Jew. This happens not only even, but particularly if the criticism is deserved. People have lost their livlihoods by saying the wrong thing even if the wrong thing happened to be true. Second, the wrong questions are being asked and debated. People have been debating whether this document is a forgery or not. That is, in this particular case, irrelevant. What should be questioned is the content of the thing. Is what is being spelled out in the document actually coming to pass and if not then it can be ignored but if these things are actually transpiring then it behooves us to discover who is doing these things. The Protocols claim it is the Jews doing this. Fine. Then that should be demonstrable. If it is not then the people responsible for these acts should be traced down, documented and exposed for what they are. As Gandalf said, All that is gold does not glitter, not all those that wander are lost. As for me...I would rather spend my time building bridges rather than fences. I do not like being wrong and appreciate it when my mistakes are pointed out to me that I may bring myself in line with what is right. I appreciate candor and frankness and plain speech. I believe if you are innocent don't plead guilty and if you are guilty stand up andtakeyourpunishment. I also believe in self discipline/restraint/responsibility and reason. My greatest belief is in the power of loving kindness and loving service to ones fellows. Now for the plain speech. Naziism is the mirror image of Judaism as is the SS of Zionism. On the one hand we have the master race and on the other the chosen people of God. Germany had Gro§deutschland-greater Germany and Israel has eretz Israel-greater Israel. Germany occupied a good portion of Europe and Israel occupies an area 10 times greater that it was at its largest in biblical times.Germany had its concentration camps and Israel has Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan. Germany claimed to have a divine right as the master race to occupy other countries for Lebensraum (living room) but failed to provide the divine deed. Israel claims the divine right to occupy others land because this land had been given to them by God but they also have failed to produce the divine deed. If Germans were attacked there were reprisals. If Israelis are attacked there are reprisals. The list of mirrored traits goes on and on. The Israelis are neither better nor worse than the Nazis.Numbers and scope make no difference. If it did then the Chinese who slaughtered 33.5 million would win making the Nazis and Israelis both look like pikers. Human life is human life and we cannot afford to say, Well, we only killed x number and the other side killed number. Doesn't work that way. Evil is evil. Perhaps they only killed x instead of because they didn't get the chance. They still did these evil things. The problem here is that when you get large bunches of folks together they often wind up getting stupid. They tend to concentrate on what their differences are rather than their similarities. They forget that their enemies are more than likely just the same as them and in the end just people. We need things but they are just greedy. Up go the fences and defenses. But if you take one person from one side and another from another side and sit them in the kitchen over some food and just get talking you generally find, after the initial horse manure has been shoveled off, that they want the same things. They want peace and happiness, decent food and housing and educations. They don't want to control anyone or be controlled. They just want to live and raise their families in peace. They want to be reasonable human beings. It is when the herd instinct and greed come into play that
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
biobenz wrote: And where do you stand Luc? Are you bashing Jews or bashing Zionists? My position is foremost that of critism of the Zionist oligarchy as an aberation and a criminal enterprise, and that there exists a clear division between judaism and Zionism is somewhat clear in the links I provided to jewsagainstzionism.com and karaite-korner.org There are many people who follow the jewish faith who do not believe in or support the political aims of the Zionists of expatriation of the indigenous peoples of Palestine not do they condone the needless violence that is being perpetrated there. As has been stated by respected Rabbis, foremost amongst which is Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who said,...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel... the political state of Israel under the Zionists do not speak for all the jewish people and that is clear. The oil wars are the child of the Zionists and their supporters, of whom the greatest and most vocal have been what is known as christian-zionists, the enablers of not only the continued injustices in Palestine but also that of Afghanistan and Iraq and God knows where else in the future. So, my beef is with those people, not the common man in the streets who wants nothing to do with any of them, Christian, muslim or jew. To lump all jews into the same boat as the Zionists is as unreasonable as to lump all Christians in the same boat as Bush and co. or all muslims in the same boat as the extremists. I believe that should clarify who it is I take exception to. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Matt I am literally stunned by this outburst of hate. Is it quite that? I am Jewish. Like 99% of Jews around the world, more than anything I want a true peace in the middle east. Jews are not some sort of monolithic force... or conspiracy... we are exactly like every other person on this earth. But what about the 1%? Patience, I beg you - withhold judgment at least until you've heard me out. I told Chris a few days ago it doesn't require a majority to hijack a democracy, a week ago Jonathan told me not to let one bad apple spoil an entire harvest. Do you think you and the other 99% like you (in other words all different, like everyone else) are the target here? How representative of that 99% would someone like Paul Wolfowitz be, a Jew indeed, or Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, also Jews? Do you view them as kindred spirits? Is their kind of Judaism your kind of Judaism? (Donald Rumsfeld and Desmond Tutu and John Ashcroft and Mother Theresa and Jerry Falwell are all Christians, right?) Is it perhaps missing the point to see Wolfowitz et al as Jews? They're also Zionist extremists. Or would it be more correct to say they're also Jews? Of a sort. The very idea that there is one way to interpret the Talmud in itself shows this man's ignorance. The Talmud is simply a commentary on the Torah... there are literally hundreds of opinions on every topic, and none are right... It is a discussion of ideas that spans centuries. It is the debate of ideas that defines Jewish belief and law. There are extremist interpretations of every tradition... Muslim, Christian, Jewish. Yes, the three great monotheistic religions. They really have far more in common than they have differences, and it's just these so-called fundamentalist extremist splinters that exacerbate the differences, at everybody's cost. In all three cases they appear to have little or no idea of what the fundamentals are, or they're dead against them. Funny, that. http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?pid=1463 Apocalyptic Revelations The interpretation of the Talmud that you refer to is an interpretation that is only believed by a few extremists, and is not part of modern Jewish understanding. This is what Talmud instructor Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of the Orthodox Jewish community says about it. Jews are forbidden to take any action to make the end of exile come to pass, especially the Zionists' way which is through atrocity and evil decrees and subjugation of another people without right and expulsion of another nation. This is especially abhorrent and against God. He draws a clear line of separation between Judaism and Zionism. Jews have been misled by the tremendous power of the propaganda machine of Zionism. Zionists have gripped control of the media, and through
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of truths and binding them to lies. Jews who are not Zionists can mostly be divided into two groups, those that are not Zionist for theoligical reasons tied into the coming of the Messiah (like Rabbi Teitelbaum) , and left wing liberals who in my opinion care less about remaining Jewish and more about being respected in their circles as politically correct Humanists. This is material for another thread on another list. Rabbi Teitlebaum is more concerned about his small Chasidic sect being the subject of secular Jewish rulings that do not coincide with his interpretation of trditional Jewish law. I, as an observant Jew respect his opinion but I do not agree with it. I would also argue that most Jews, secular and observant, are Zionists to different degrees. There are many different definitions within the Jewish community about what Zionism is , but the central belief is that Israel, as a Jewish state has the right to exist. What it's borders are and how it is governed is another debate. Your exceptional naivete (to be generous) and your insensitivity to regarding your previous posting quoting things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just proves your ignorance. These documents are proven scams and hate literature. I am suprised you do not quote Mein Kampf(sp?) and proclaim Hitler and the Grand Inquisitors as tellers of great truths. You also probably wake up each morning(after checking the horizon for the black helicopters of the Apocalypse) looking for a reason why your own life is unsatifactory and blame anyone but yourself. It is so easy to imagine all the forces of the world conspired against you rather than working out real solutions to your own shortcomings. Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Luc, you must take your name really seriously, spreading hatred and lies to the ignorant, isn't your name short for Lucifer. -Arthur Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Arthur Sauerhaft, How about putting a muzzle on your ugly and hateful comments? Discussing or airing perceptions, perspectives and viewpoints is not being ugly or hateful. On the other hand, your intentionally derogatory personal attacks are and your bitter and unwarranted assault further substantiates the general perception of the radical nature of Zionism and -ists. As for your apology? No. It is not accepted, as you knew from the onset how far in the wrong you were going to be, yet you didn't care. Little children know better. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: arthur sauerhaft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of truths and binding them to lies. Jews who are not Zionists can mostly be divided into two groups, those that are not Zionist for theoligical reasons tied into the coming of the Messiah (like Rabbi Teitelbaum) , and left wing liberals who in my opinion care less about remaining Jewish and more about being respected in their circles as politically correct Humanists. This is material for another thread on another list. Rabbi Teitlebaum is more concerned about his small Chasidic sect being the subject of secular Jewish rulings that do not coincide with his interpretation of trditional Jewish law. I, as an observant Jew respect his opinion but I do not agree with it. I would also argue that most Jews, secular and observant, are Zionists to different degrees. There are many different definitions within the Jewish community about what Zionism is , but the central belief is that Israel, as a Jewish state has the right to exist. What it's borders are and how it is governed is another debate. Your exceptional naivete (to be generous) and your insensitivity to regarding your previous posting quoting things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just proves your ignorance. These documents are proven scams and hate literature. I am suprised you do not quote Mein Kampf(sp?) and proclaim Hitler and the Grand Inquisitors as tellers of great truths. You also probably wake up each morning(after checking the horizon for the black helicopters of the Apocalypse) looking for a reason why your own life is unsatifactory and blame anyone but yourself. It is so easy to imagine all the forces of the world conspired against you rather than working out real solutions to your own shortcomings. Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Luc, you must take your name really seriously, spreading hatred and lies to the ignorant, isn't your name short for Lucifer. -Arthur Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
Arthur, I am puzzled, have looked through the thread and have large difficulties to find any I hate the Jews in it. I find some interesting ideological and theological facts in it, but expressed in a respectful and objective way. I find no reasons for this nobody likes us postings. They would be more interesting without this below the belt Lucifer things. Hakan At 04:54 01/06/2004, you wrote: I am reposting this because I accidently coppied all/most of the previous posting and was added to the end. I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR WASTING BANDWIDTH ON THIS RANT, PLEASE FORGIVE ME Luc, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. I have tried to stay out of this ugly hateful thread but I find myself swept in because of your twisting of truths and binding them to lies. Jews who are not Zionists can mostly be divided into two groups, those that are not Zionist for theoligical reasons tied into the coming of the Messiah (like Rabbi Teitelbaum) , and left wing liberals who in my opinion care less about remaining Jewish and more about being respected in their circles as politically correct Humanists. This is material for another thread on another list. Rabbi Teitlebaum is more concerned about his small Chasidic sect being the subject of secular Jewish rulings that do not coincide with his interpretation of trditional Jewish law. I, as an observant Jew respect his opinion but I do not agree with it. I would also argue that most Jews, secular and observant, are Zionists to different degrees. There are many different definitions within the Jewish community about what Zionism is , but the central belief is that Israel, as a Jewish state has the right to exist. What it's borders are and how it is governed is another debate. Your exceptional naivete (to be generous) and your insensitivity to regarding your previous posting quoting things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just proves your ignorance. These documents are proven scams and hate literature. I am suprised you do not quote Mein Kampf(sp?) and proclaim Hitler and the Grand Inquisitors as tellers of great truths. You also probably wake up each morning(after checking the horizon for the black helicopters of the Apocalypse) looking for a reason why your own life is unsatifactory and blame anyone but yourself. It is so easy to imagine all the forces of the world conspired against you rather than working out real solutions to your own shortcomings. Yes , Luc this is personal , people like you spread hatred and kill far more people than silly land grabs and commodity wars ever will. Luc, you must take your name really seriously, spreading hatred and lies to the ignorant, isn't your name short for Lucifer. -Arthur Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:37:11 +0200, you wrote: Arthur, I am puzzled, have looked through the thread and have large difficulties to find any I hate the Jews in it. I find some interesting ideological and theological facts in it, but expressed in a respectful and objective way. I find no reasons for this nobody likes us postings. They would be more interesting without this below the belt Lucifer things. Hakan I haven't read many posts in this (or other) threads that I entirely agree with, or entirely disagree with. 1. With respect to your response to Arthur's comments, I agree with you that he detracted from his own comments by descending into his personal diatribe. 2. On the other hand I was a little relieved to hear Arthur question Luc's raising of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I stopped reading most of Luc's comments directly not only when he raised this, but given the manner in which he did so, and was disappointed in the group that this and perhaps a few other of his comments were not challenged more strongly. This is not to dismiss everything out-of-hand that Luc has said. If someone wishes to take his comments on a point-by-point basis and separate what they think is the bad from the good, that's their affair. But I do not have much time, and reading his ham-handed attempt to insert that particular topic into what are probably in-need-of-discussion areas was a signal to me that my time could be better spent elsewhere, and if we care about the overall controversial topic, then I thought I might find better reading of it elsewhere. 2A): With respect to the issue of being on the lookout for a I hate the Jews comment, I don't think that a hater or irrational-agenda non-transparent-agenda person (of any sort) is going to make it that easy for us. While you may not have intended for that method to be taken so literally, I think it is worth using your comment as a launching point for spelling this out to be aware that not everyone is going to say everything they think in precisely the terms they think it particularly if it could have them banned or get them ostracized or cause their remarks to be less read. 3. I tend to agree with Keith and Todd and others that generally the unconditional-support-for-Israel by the American Government and Fourth Estate is overdue for public discourse, though I may disagree with them on many or all of the answers that we get or how we should pose the questions. 4. Religion: I regard one's personal religious or philosophic beliefs as arguably the most important aspect of one's life. Others may not agree, explicitly or in their hearts. Some may regard their political orientation (e.g. Conservative, Social Democrat, whatever), or their so-called race (Chinese, White, some variant, whatever... is there even scientifically such a thing if we are all the human race?) or their citizenship (French, Chinese, Nigerian, whatever) as the de facto thing they spent the most time thinking about. Some hobbies or interests may even be elevated to near-supremely-important-to-us status. Others may have a different way of approaching these important questions, speaking about their work, their loved ones, their wealth, their health, etc. But I think some would agree that one's belief system and following it (for want of better words) is the most important thing in one's life. Most of us 6,000,000,000+ on this planet believe that we choose this system, and have the right to change our minds and-or assert at some point when we become adults what we are, and-or what we are not. Some of us us have personal beliefs (or anti-beliefs) which do not fit so readily into the conventional labels frequently provided in press discussions of these issues. I don't know the numbers in part because the mainstream press discussions are so infrequent. But it is not just a matter of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shinto-ism, Other. That Other may be much bigger and far more robust and diverse than one might glean from such a listing. It may be very non-Theistic for some (including myself). Furthermore, of those who may identify themselves with the prior more well-defined listings, many may or may not in reality practice or believe or be knowledgeable about them. There are many who might have mixed thoughts, or not thoughts, or some variants on those themes. In some countries (including America I think) we generally try to practice the courtesy of allowing a person to say I am such-and-such religion, or I do not believe in such-and-such-religion although we often get sloppy about it (sometimes labeling them with the putative religion of their parents whether they like it or not, for example), and the person speaking may often have a complex mixture of thoughts which may make his or her own answer either an oversimplification of their own beliefs, or they may be compelled to say that they cannot be categorized. Or they may not
[biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
And where do you stand Luc? Are you bashing Jews or bashing Zionists? My position is foremost that of critism of the Zionist oligarchy as an aberation and a criminal enterprise, and that there exists a clear division between judaism and Zionism is somewhat clear in the links I provided to jewsagainstzionism.com and karaite-korner.org There are many people who follow the jewish faith who do not believe in or support the political aims of the Zionists of expatriation of the indigenous peoples of Palestine not do they condone the needless violence that is being perpetrated there. As has been stated by respected Rabbis, foremost amongst which is Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum who said,...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel... the political state of Israel under the Zionists do not speak for all the jewish people and that is clear. The oil wars are the child of the Zionists and their supporters, of whom the greatest and most vocal have been what is known as christian-zionists, the enablers of not only the continued injustices in Palestine but also that of Afghanistan and Iraq and God knows where else in the future. So, my beef is with those people, not the common man in the streets who wants nothing to do with any of them, Christian, muslim or jew. To lump all jews into the same boat as the Zionists is as unreasonable as to lump all Christians in the same boat as Bush and co. or all muslims in the same boat as the extremists. I believe that should clarify who it is I take exception to. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Matt I am literally stunned by this outburst of hate. Is it quite that? I am Jewish. Like 99% of Jews around the world, more than anything I want a true peace in the middle east. Jews are not some sort of monolithic force... or conspiracy... we are exactly like every other person on this earth. But what about the 1%? Patience, I beg you - withhold judgment at least until you've heard me out. I told Chris a few days ago it doesn't require a majority to hijack a democracy, a week ago Jonathan told me not to let one bad apple spoil an entire harvest. Do you think you and the other 99% like you (in other words all different, like everyone else) are the target here? How representative of that 99% would someone like Paul Wolfowitz be, a Jew indeed, or Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, also Jews? Do you view them as kindred spirits? Is their kind of Judaism your kind of Judaism? (Donald Rumsfeld and Desmond Tutu and John Ashcroft and Mother Theresa and Jerry Falwell are all Christians, right?) Is it perhaps missing the point to see Wolfowitz et al as Jews? They're also Zionist extremists. Or would it be more correct to say they're also Jews? Of a sort. The very idea that there is one way to interpret the Talmud in itself shows this man's ignorance. The Talmud is simply a commentary on the Torah... there are literally hundreds of opinions on every topic, and none are right... It is a discussion of ideas that spans centuries. It is the debate of ideas that defines Jewish belief and law. There are extremist interpretations of every tradition... Muslim, Christian, Jewish. Yes, the three great monotheistic religions. They really have far more in common than they have differences, and it's just these so-called fundamentalist extremist splinters that exacerbate the differences, at everybody's cost. In all three cases they appear to have little or no idea of what the fundamentals are, or they're dead against them. Funny, that. http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?pid=1463 Apocalyptic Revelations The interpretation of the Talmud that you refer to is an interpretation that is only believed by a few extremists, and is not part of modern Jewish understanding. This is what Talmud instructor Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of the Orthodox Jewish community says about it. Jews are forbidden to take any action to make the end of exile come to pass, especially the Zionists' way which is through atrocity and evil decrees and subjugation of another people without right and expulsion of another nation. This is especially abhorrent and against God. He draws a clear line of separation between Judaism and Zionism. Jews have been misled by the tremendous power of the propaganda machine of Zionism. Zionists have gripped control of the media, and through the media, confused and integrated the Torah into the Zionist belief. With false interpretations of verses of the Torah, they have confused the truth of the Torah. He said: The forefathers of Zionism were known atheists and
