Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chip

Sorry, a bit late with this.

More snips...

>| A FAO document distributed yesterday said: "Biofuels accounted for
>| 59% of the increase in global use of coarse grains and wheat between
>| 2005-2007, and 56% of the increase in vegetable oils."
>
>I am having a really hard time buying this (pun intended)
>
>Unless so-called 'food' is being diverted to biofuel production
>along the lines of 59%, I just don't see how this can be so,
>in the misapprehended context of 'market demand' aka,
>supply and demand.

I don't think it has much to do with supply and demand, but the FAO 
isn't about to admit that (I'm sure lots of their staff would 
though). Their own data shows record harvests, USDA data shows 
harvests increasing steadily and staying ahead of demand. Check the 
tables here: 
 
"Grain: World Markets and Trade". The document is dated 2007, but the 
tables are right up to date.

Lots of people who should know what they're talking about have 
commented that it's not a matter of supply and demand.

>| -- "US attacked at food summit over biofuels - Corn ethanol
>| production blamed for price rises - American delegation rejects link
>| by UN official," The Guardian, Rome, June 4, 2008
>| http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/04/biofuels.food
>
>What percentage of corn (that weird yellow #2 frankencorn stuff)
>is being 'diverted' to ethanol production?
>
>I know that the 'American delegation' really isn't exactly a
>great go-to place for solid un-molested empirical data, however,
>, ,

Take the World Bank's much-quoted line: "The grain required to fill 
the tank of a sports utility vehicle with ethanol could feed one 
person for a year."

But the DDGS by-product ends up producing more meat than if you fed 
the raw corn to the cattle directly, and it's much better for them 
too - and you get the ethanol as well.

So then the objection isn't to corn diverted to ethanol, it's to 
feeding corn to livestock instead of humans. Okay, it's the wrong 
kind of corn for humans, so grow the right kind of corn then. I can 
go along with that, sort of, you shouldn't feed corn to cattle, but 
all it really boils down to is an objection to factory-farmed 
livestock, quite right too. But it's not a case against meat eating 
and for vegetarianism as so often claimed (by George Monbiot for 
instance), just a case against factory farming and agribusiness in 
general, and it's not a case against ethanol either. There's no 
problem with producing meat sustainably, humanely and efficiently, on 
mixed organic farms, along with any other crops, including corn - and 
including ethanol too, though not necessarily from corn.

And so on.

Cause célèbre in the anti-biofuels arguments is Mexico's tortilla 
riots in February 2007, after corn prices soared by 60%. It seems a 
clear-cut case: hungry people on one hand, and on the other, corn 
diverted to ethanol fuel for gas-guzzling SUVs in the US.

Walden Bello, director of Focus on the Global South and sociology 
professor at the University of the Philippines, says the tortilla 
riots had as much to do with the NAFTA free-trade agreement as with 
the diversion of US corn from tortillas to ethanol production.

He says Mexico, "the homeland of corn, had been converted to a 
corn-importing economy by 'free market' policies promoted by the 
International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank and Washington. ... 
Unilateral liberalization of agricultural trade pushed by the IMF and 
World Bank also contributed to the destabilization of peasant 
producers."

NAFTA came as an even bigger blow to the peasants: "Highly subsidized 
US corn quickly flooded in, reducing prices by half and plunging the 
corn sector into chronic crisis. Largely as a result of this 
agreement, Mexico's status as a net food importer has now been firmly 
established. ... According to a 2003 Carnegie Endowment report, 
imports of US agricultural products threw at least 1.3 million 
farmers out of work -- many of whom have since found their way to the 
United States."

Bello says the diversion of corn from tortillas to biofuel was 
certainly one cause of the skyrocketing prices, but "speculation on 
biofuel demand by transnational middlemen may have played a bigger 
role".

"With the shutting down of the state marketing agency for corn, 
distribution of US corn imports and Mexican grain has come to be 
monopolized by a few transnational traders, like US-owned Cargill and 
partly US-owned Maseca, operating on both sides of the border. This 
has given them tremendous power to speculate on trade trends, so that 
movements in biofuel demand can be manipulated and magnified many 
times over. At the same time, monopoly control of domestic trade has 
ensured that a rise in international corn prices does not translate 
into significantly higher prices paid to small producers." See 
"Manufacturing a Food Crisis" by Walden Bello, The Nation, May 15, 
2008 <

Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

>Kurt Schasker wrote:
>
>In David Blume's book:  "Alcohol can be a gas" are listed several 
>facts regarding corn as a food.
>
>In summary, it goes like this.  (I have always found this book to be 
>factually accurate, and I have tried to find irregularities).
>
>1.  10 lbs of corn makes about one-half gallon ethanol and 3 lbs of 
>DDGS (Dried Distiller's Grain plus Solubles).
>
>2.  3 lbs of DDGS makes aboutone pound of beef
>
>2.  10 lbs of corn, fed to cows, makes about one pound of beef.(No 
>difference from #2 above, in other words, pulling the carbohydrates 
>out of corn prior to feeding to cows does not affect its usefulness 
>as a cow feed)

That's not what David Blume says. He says: "If you feed 33 pounds of 
DDGS to cattle instead of 100 pounds of corn, you get 14 to 17% more 
meat up to 30% faster, with a fraction of the veterinary costs. ... 
So, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you 
fed the corn directly to cattle."

I think he's correct.

>3.  80% of corn grown in the US is fed to cows, 10% is exported, 10% 
>is human consumed (2002 numbers).

Source please? I don't think your numbers are right.

>(Probably more is fed to cows  because the exported corn is, you 
>guessed it, fed to cows).
>
>So, in summary, first pulling ethanol out of corn, then feeding the 
>by-product to cows does not alter the amount of beef produced.

It increases the amount of beef produced.

>There is one issue that does need discussion:
> 
>http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_11175.cfm
>The above URL references an article that indicates DDGS is not 
>sanitary, and its use is promoting E.Coli in beef.  If that is true, 
>it seems easily remedied by more sanitary DDGS handling practices.

Indeed, but in fact they shouldn't be eating DDGS either, there's no 
good reason nor any excuse for factory-farmed meat. There's good 
reason and every excuse for free-range pastured livestock on 
sustainable mixed farms though, but they don't need either corn or 
DDGS.

>Anyway, back to the main arguement:  ALL corn should first be 
>refined to ethanol, that way we can harvest the ethanol, which will 
>lower the price of fuel worldwide by increasing supply.  This will 
>help lower food prices by lowering the energy costs of food 
>production.

Your assumption is the usual one, that current food prices have got 
something to do with costs or with food production, but about the 
only thing that supports that assumption is the sheer number of 
people who assume it. The same goes for the assumption that current 
fuel prices have something to do with supply and demand.

We've covered all this quite thoroughly already. Do some homework in 
the list archives please.

Keith

>Kurt


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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Kurt Schasker]

In David Blume's book:  "Alcohol can be a gas" are listed several facts 
regarding corn as a food.
 
In summary, it goes like this.  (I have always found this book to be factually 
accurate, and I have tried to find irregularities).
 
1.  10 lbs of corn makes about one-half gallon ethanol and 3 lbs of DDGS (Dried 
Distiller's Grain plus Solubles).
 
2.  3 lbs of DDGS makes aboutone pound of beef 
 
2.  10 lbs of corn, fed to cows, makes about one pound of beef.(No difference 
from #2 above, in other words, pulling the carbohydrates out of corn prior to 
feeding to cows does not affect its usefulness as a cow feed)
 
3.  80% of corn grown in the US is fed to cows, 10% is exported, 10% is human 
consumed (2002 numbers). (Probably more is fed to cows  because the exported 
corn is, you guessed it, fed to cows).
 
So, in summary, first pulling ethanol out of corn, then feeding the by-product 
to cows does not alter the amount of beef produced.  There is one issue that 
does need discussion:
  http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_11175.cfm
The above URL references an article that indicates DDGS is not sanitary, and 
its use is promoting E.Coli in beef.  If that is true, it seems easily remedied 
by more sanitary DDGS handling practices.
 
Anyway, back to the main arguement:  ALL corn should first be refined to 
ethanol, that way we can harvest the ethanol, which will lower the price of 
fuel worldwide by increasing supply.  This will help lower food prices by 
lowering the energy costs of food production.
 
Kurt
 
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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Chip Mefford]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Lots of stuff snipped, my only comment inline below
(leaving thread intact, because it's a very good thread)

Keith Addison wrote:
| Hi Chip
|
|> Keith Addison wrote:
|>>  http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552
|>>
|>>  Seedling  > July 2008
|>>
|>>  The food emergency and food myths
|>>
|>>  Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices
|>>
|>>  Vandana Shiva *
|> I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and very well
|> thought out.
|
| Yes, isn't it. She's good value, always worth the read.
|
|> That said;
|>
|>  >SNIP
|>>  agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and
|>  > through the hijacking of food into biofuels,
|>
|> I keep hearing about this 'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.
|>
|> Anyone have the numbers to back this up?
|
| Some. At the UN food summit in Rome last month:
|
| Ed Schafer, the US agriculture secretary, said the production of
| biofuels contributed less than 3% to the recent rapid rises in food
| prices but that assertion clashed with estimates by the International
| Monetary Fund, that they are responsible for 20-30% of the price
| rises.
|
| A FAO document distributed yesterday said: "Biofuels accounted for
| 59% of the increase in global use of coarse grains and wheat between
| 2005-2007, and 56% of the increase in vegetable oils."

I am having a really hard time buying this (pun intended)

Unless so-called 'food' is being diverted to biofuel production
along the lines of 59%, I just don't see how this can be so,
in the misapprehended context of 'market demand' aka,
supply and demand.

| -- "US attacked at food summit over biofuels - Corn ethanol
| production blamed for price rises - American delegation rejects link
| by UN official," The Guardian, Rome, June 4, 2008
| http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/04/biofuels.food

What percentage of corn (that weird yellow #2 frankencorn stuff)
is being 'diverted' to ethanol production?

I know that the 'American delegation' really isn't exactly a
great go-to place for solid un-molested empirical data, however,
, ,

| The American agriculture secretary, Ed Schafer, has told American
| reporters that increasing the production of corn ethanol is "the
| right policy direction". Corn prices rose on the world markets
| throughout the last hours of the summit.
| -- "Food summit fails to agree on biofuels," The Guardian, Rome, June
6, 2008
| http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/06/food.biofuels
|
| Biofuels are responsible for 30 percent of the increase in global
| food prices, pushing 30 million people worldwide into poverty, aid
| agency Oxfam said in a report on Wednesday.
| -- "Oxfam says biofuels pushing 30 million into poverty," Reuters, Jun
25, 2008
| http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSL2432915720080625
|
|  From the Oxfam report: "Another Inconvenient Truth - How biofuel
| policies are deepening poverty and accelerating climate change," 25
| June 2008
|
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/policy/climate_change/bp114_inconvenient_truth.html
| Download the full report (58-page pdf)
|

|
| Oxfam estimates that the livelihoods of at least 290 million people
| are immediately threatened by the food crisis, and the Bank estimates
| that 100 million people have already fallen into poverty as a result.
| Thirty per cent of price increases are attributable to biofuels,
| suggesting biofuels have endangered the livelihoods of nearly 100
| million people and dragged over 30 million into poverty.

Okay, I don't doubt the numbers here. But I'm still having a difficult
time seeing a correlation between non-food corn overproduction,
and global food prices.

|
| The IMF estimates that last year they accounted for almost half of
| the increase in demand for major food crops. (IMF World Economic
| Outlook, April 2008)
|
| The OECD has estimated that between 2005 and 2007, almost 60 per cent
| of the increase in consumption of cereals and vegetable oils was due
| to biofuels. ('Rising Food Prices: Causes and Consequences', OECD,
| paper prepared for the DAC High Level Meeting, 20-21 May 2008.)
|
| Commentary by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) suggests
| biofuels may explain 10 per cent of recent food price rises.
|
| The International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI) estimates
| that biofuels explain 30 per cent of food price rises, an estimate
| corroborated by the IMF.
|
| (For IFPRI commentary, see
| www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/26/food.unitednations. Also
| see IFPRI (2008) 'Biofuels and Grain Prices: Impacts and Policy
| Responses'. Simon Johnson, Chief Economist of the IMF, estimated that
| biofuels account for '20-30 per cent' of price rises on The Today
| Programme, BBC Radio 4, 14 April 2008. For FAO commentary, see:
| www.ft.com/cms/

Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Dawie Coetzee]

Thanks   -D



- Original Message 
From: Jason Mier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, 2 July, 2008 12:52:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths


absolutely.  have at it.


> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:29:17 +
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths



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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Jason Mier]

absolutely.  have at it.


> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:29:17 +
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths
>
> Precisely. But what is needed is first a recognition that Joe's small-scale 
> autonomy is an intrinsically desirable thing, and then an understanding of 
> what conditions tend to produce such small-scale autonomy. Then bringing 
> about those conditions would be relatively simple.
> Jason - I'd like to cross-post your message on another forum. May I give your 
> punctuation a once-over before doing so? -Dawie
>
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Jason Mier 
> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008 10:34:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths
>
>
>
> on a similar note, why try to "factory-ize" it in the first place?
>
> let's make up a person- call him Neighborhood Joe.
>
> so Joe lives in a sensibly sized town of about 2500 people, there is a 
> bakery, a market, a couple of restaurants, a laundry service, a hardware 
> store, an auto shop, and -like any good town- a pub.
>
> joe grows a surplus sized garden; makes bd from the restaurant's and pub's 
> fryers; fuel alcohol from the bakery, market and his garden food wastes; 
> methane and compost from the glycerine, distillers sediments, and yard waste; 
> and money from the shops and neighbors who understand what he is doing and 
> want to buy his surplus. joe spends his money on the local shops when he's 
> pinched for time, needs parts, a drink, or doesn't feel like cooking that day.
>
> now take that and change it to say joe buys out all the neighbors, plows 
> everything under and has hundreds of acres of crops to do all that with new 
> materials. noone around has their lands or shops anymore, so they cant afford 
> to buy joe's products. this in turn makes everybody work for joe to survive.
> joe has no local market anymore, so he has to go outside. the parasites who 
> run the markets expect uber-cheap goods so joe has to cut costs (i.e. 
> worker's salaries) which ruins the neighborhood even more.
>
> now who wants that??
>
> _
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>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Dawie Coetzee]

Precisely. But what is needed is first a recognition that Joe's small-scale 
autonomy is an intrinsically desirable thing, and then an understanding of what 
conditions tend to produce such small-scale autonomy. Then bringing about those 
conditions would be relatively simple.
Jason - I'd like to cross-post your message on another forum. May I give your 
punctuation a once-over before doing so?     -Dawie



- Original Message 
From: Jason Mier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008 10:34:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths



on a similar note, why try to "factory-ize" it in the first place?

let's make up a person- call him Neighborhood Joe.

so Joe lives in a sensibly sized town of about 2500 people, there is a bakery, 
a market, a couple of restaurants, a laundry service, a hardware store, an auto 
shop, and -like any good town- a pub.

joe grows a surplus sized garden; makes bd from the restaurant's and pub's 
fryers; fuel alcohol from the bakery, market and his garden food wastes; 
methane and compost from the glycerine, distillers sediments, and yard waste; 
and money from the shops and neighbors who understand what he is doing and want 
to buy his surplus. joe spends his money on the local shops when he's pinched 
for time, needs parts, a drink, or doesn't feel like cooking that day.

now take that and change it to say joe buys out all the neighbors, plows 
everything under and has hundreds of acres of crops to do all that with new 
materials. noone around has their lands or shops anymore, so they cant afford 
to buy joe's products. this in turn makes everybody work for joe to survive.
joe has no local market anymore, so he has to go outside. the parasites who run 
the markets expect uber-cheap goods so joe has to cut costs (i.e. worker's 
salaries) which ruins the neighborhood even more.

now who wants that??

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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

:-)

Great, Jason.

Best

Keith


>on a similar note, why try to "factory-ize" it in the first place?
>
>let's make up a person- call him Neighborhood Joe.
>
>so Joe lives in a sensibly sized town of about 2500 people, there is 
>a bakery, a market, a couple of restaurants, a laundry service, a 
>hardware store, an auto shop, and -like any good town- a pub.
>
>joe grows a surplus sized garden; makes bd from the restaurant's and 
>pub's fryers; fuel alcohol from the bakery, market and his garden 
>food wastes; methane and compost from the glycerine, distillers 
>sediments, and yard waste; and money from the shops and neighbors 
>who understand what he is doing and want to buy his surplus. joe 
>spends his money on the local shops when he's pinched for time, 
>needs parts, a drink, or doesn't feel like cooking that day.
>
>now take that and change it to say joe buys out all the neighbors, 
>plows everything under and has hundreds of acres of crops to do all 
>that with new materials. noone around has their lands or shops 
>anymore, so they cant afford to buy joe's products. this in turn 
>makes everybody work for joe to survive.
>joe has no local market anymore, so he has to go outside. the 
>parasites who run the markets expect uber-cheap goods so joe has to 
>cut costs (i.e. worker's salaries) which ruins the neighborhood even 
>more.
>
>now who wants that??


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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chip

>Keith Addison wrote:
>>  http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552
>>
>>  Seedling  > July 2008
>>
>>  The food emergency and food myths
>>
>>  Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices
>>
>>  Vandana Shiva *
>
>I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and very well
>thought out.

Yes, isn't it. She's good value, always worth the read.

>That said;
>
>  >SNIP
>>  agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and
>  > through the hijacking of food into biofuels,
>
>I keep hearing about this 'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.
>
>Anyone have the numbers to back this up?

Some. At the UN food summit in Rome last month:

Ed Schafer, the US agriculture secretary, said the production of 
biofuels contributed less than 3% to the recent rapid rises in food 
prices but that assertion clashed with estimates by the International 
Monetary Fund, that they are responsible for 20-30% of the price 
rises.

A FAO document distributed yesterday said: "Biofuels accounted for 
59% of the increase in global use of coarse grains and wheat between 
2005-2007, and 56% of the increase in vegetable oils."

-- "US attacked at food summit over biofuels - Corn ethanol 
production blamed for price rises - American delegation rejects link 
by UN official," The Guardian, Rome, June 4, 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/04/biofuels.food

The American agriculture secretary, Ed Schafer, has told American 
reporters that increasing the production of corn ethanol is "the 
right policy direction". Corn prices rose on the world markets 
throughout the last hours of the summit.
-- "Food summit fails to agree on biofuels," The Guardian, Rome, June 6, 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/06/food.biofuels

Biofuels are responsible for 30 percent of the increase in global 
food prices, pushing 30 million people worldwide into poverty, aid 
agency Oxfam said in a report on Wednesday.
-- "Oxfam says biofuels pushing 30 million into poverty," Reuters, Jun 25, 2008
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSL2432915720080625

 From the Oxfam report: "Another Inconvenient Truth - How biofuel 
policies are deepening poverty and accelerating climate change," 25 
June 2008
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/policy/climate_change/bp114_inconvenient_truth.html
Download the full report (58-page pdf)


Oxfam estimates that the livelihoods of at least 290 million people 
are immediately threatened by the food crisis, and the Bank estimates 
that 100 million people have already fallen into poverty as a result. 
Thirty per cent of price increases are attributable to biofuels, 
suggesting biofuels have endangered the livelihoods of nearly 100 
million people and dragged over 30 million into poverty.

The IMF estimates that last year they accounted for almost half of 
the increase in demand for major food crops. (IMF World Economic 
Outlook, April 2008)

The OECD has estimated that between 2005 and 2007, almost 60 per cent 
of the increase in consumption of cereals and vegetable oils was due 
to biofuels. ('Rising Food Prices: Causes and Consequences', OECD, 
paper prepared for the DAC High Level Meeting, 20-21 May 2008.)

Commentary by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) suggests 
biofuels may explain 10 per cent of recent food price rises.

The International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI) estimates 
that biofuels explain 30 per cent of food price rises, an estimate 
corroborated by the IMF.

(For IFPRI commentary, see 
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/26/food.unitednations. Also 
see IFPRI (2008) 'Biofuels and Grain Prices: Impacts and Policy 
Responses'. Simon Johnson, Chief Economist of the IMF, estimated that 
biofuels account for '20-30 per cent' of price rises on The Today 
Programme, BBC Radio 4, 14 April 2008. For FAO commentary, see: 
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a503b8ce- 131a-11dd-8d91-779fd2ac.html)

Research from the World Bank puts the contribution of biofuels even 
higher, at 65 per cent. (D. Mitchell (2008) 'A Note on Rising Food 
Prices', World Bank, cited in 'Soaring Food Prices: Facts, 
Perspectives, Impacts and Actions Required', FAO, 2008.)

World Bank analysis estimates that recent price rises have led to an 
increase in global poverty of 105 million people. (Above)

Oxfam estimates that the livelihoods of at least 290 million people 
worldwide are now endangered, necessitating $14.5bn in immediate 
assistance - the same as rich countries are estimated to have spent 
on support to biofuels last year. (A. Fraser and F. Mousseau (2008) 
'The Time is Now: How World Leaders Should Respond to the Food Price 
Crisis', Oxfam Briefing Note.)

If recent food price inflation - of which IFPRI estimates 30 per cent 
is attributable to biofuels - is responsible for an increase in the 
poverty 

Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

tional/world/0,1518,549187,00.html>

And so on.

Not all these links in this message have been posted to the list, but 
all the information is there in the archives, and it's mostly 
happened since you joined, it shouldn't be news to you. If you don't 
follow the list discussions then check the archives before posting a 
message and getting it all wrong.

Best

Keith


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Chip Mefford
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 12:14 PM
>To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths
>
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>>  http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552
>>
>>  Seedling  > July 2008
>>
>>  The food emergency and food myths
>>
>>  Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices
>>
>>  Vandana Shiva *
>
>I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and very well
>thought out.
>
>That said;
>
>
>  >SNIP
>>  agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and
>>  through the hijacking of food into biofuels,
>
>
>I keep hearing about this 'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.
>
>Anyone have the numbers to back this up?
>
>The increased 'demand' for ethanol in the US, is at least partially
>due to the gigantic surpluses of 'feed corn' over the last decade.
>That corn is only food in an abstract sense, it's mostly all starch,
>not edible directly. I'm sure this year the corn yields will be down,
>no doubt. But somehow, I don't see the correlation.
>
>
>
>--
>Chip Mefford
>
>Before Enlightenment;
> chop wood
> carry water
>After Enlightenment;
> chop wood
> carry water


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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Keith Addison]

 a non food from a nutritional view point.

Refined sugar, yes. Same goes for refined starch though.

Terry, please adjust the default settings of your emailer, it's 
making a mess of the previous messages.

Thankyou.

Best

Keith


>Terry Dyck> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:08:11 -0600> From: 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
>sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
>The food emergency and food myths> > Don't farmers have the right to 
>sell their corn to whoever they want to> sell it too? Even if corn 
>is going to make ethanol, so? So the world> has increased its demand 
>for oil, and that means that oil costs more,> that means that we 
>need to find ways to offset that, so we make corn> into ethanol, and 
>now corn costs more. Maybe if the oil producing> countries of the 
>world didn't need indoor skiing and rotating towers(see> Dubai), and 
>such a large profit margin, then we would have gone along> consuming 
>just like we had been. Oil costs around $1-$15 to produce a> barrel. 
>It's sold at $143 a barrel. Someone's making a helluva profit> in 
>there. Even barring the fact that some of this corn is being> 
>diverted to other uses, it costs more to produce it when diesel goes 
>up.> Those tractors don't run on water. > > > > -Original 
>Message-> From: 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
>Behalf> Of Chip Mefford> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 12:14 PM> To: 
>sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
>The food emergency and food myths> > > Keith Addison wrote:> > 
>http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552> > > > Seedling > July 
>2008> > > > The food emergency and food myths> > > > Why Bush is 
>wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices> > > > Vandana 
>Shiva *> > I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and 
>very well> thought out.> > That said;> > > >SNIP> > agribusiness in 
>the current food crisis, both through speculation and > > through 
>the hijacking of food into biofuels, > > > I keep hearing about this 
>'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.> > Anyone have the 
>numbers to back this up?> > The increased 'demand' for ethanol in 
>the US, is at least partially> due to the gigantic surpluses of 
>'feed corn' over the last decade.> That corn is only food in an 
>abstract sense, it's mostly all starch,> not edible directly. I'm 
>sure this year the corn yields will be down,> no doubt. But somehow, 
>I don't see the correlation.> > > > -- > Chip Mefford> 
>> Before Enlightenment;> chop wood> carry water> 
>After Enlightenment;> chop wood> carry water> -> 
>Public Key> http://www.well.com/user/cpm> > 
>___>


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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Jason Mier]

on a similar note, why try to "factory-ize" it in the first place?

let's make up a person- call him Neighborhood Joe.

so Joe lives in a sensibly sized town of about 2500 people, there is a bakery, 
a market, a couple of restaurants, a laundry service, a hardware store, an auto 
shop, and -like any good town- a pub.

joe grows a surplus sized garden; makes bd from the restaurant's and pub's 
fryers; fuel alcohol from the bakery, market and his garden food wastes; 
methane and compost from the glycerine, distillers sediments, and yard waste; 
and money from the shops and neighbors who understand what he is doing and want 
to buy his surplus. joe spends his money on the local shops when he's pinched 
for time, needs parts, a drink, or doesn't feel like cooking that day.

now take that and change it to say joe buys out all the neighbors, plows 
everything under and has hundreds of acres of crops to do all that with new 
materials. noone around has their lands or shops anymore, so they cant afford 
to buy joe's products. this in turn makes everybody work for joe to survive.
joe has no local market anymore, so he has to go outside. the parasites who run 
the markets expect uber-cheap goods so joe has to cut costs (i.e. worker's 
salaries) which ruins the neighborhood even more.

now who wants that??

_
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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Steve,
 
Why use corn when you can use switch grass, jatropha trees, algae, or even 
better, used vege oils?  Or how about sugar cane or diesel tree syrup for 
Brazil?  The straw part of grains is a little better than the food part, but 
food should not be used as fuel for cars.  Sugar could be counted as a non food 
from a nutritional view point.
 
Terry Dyck> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:08:11 -0600> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food 
emergency and food myths> > Don't farmers have the right to sell their corn to 
whoever they want to> sell it too? Even if corn is going to make ethanol, so? 
So the world> has increased its demand for oil, and that means that oil costs 
more,> that means that we need to find ways to offset that, so we make corn> 
into ethanol, and now corn costs more. Maybe if the oil producing> countries of 
the world didn't need indoor skiing and rotating towers(see> Dubai), and such a 
large profit margin, then we would have gone along> consuming just like we had 
been. Oil costs around $1-$15 to produce a> barrel. It's sold at $143 a barrel. 
Someone's making a helluva profit> in there. Even barring the fact that some of 
this corn is being> diverted to other uses, it costs more to produce it when 
diesel goes up.> Those tractors don't run on water. > > > > -Original 
Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf> Of 
Chip Mefford> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 12:14 PM> To: 
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food 
emergency and food myths> > > Keith Addison wrote:> > 
http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552> > > > Seedling > July 2008> > > > The 
food emergency and food myths> > > > Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the 
rise in food prices> > > > Vandana Shiva *> > I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's 
input. It's clueful and very well> thought out.> > That said;> > > >SNIP> > 
agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and > > 
through the hijacking of food into biofuels, > > > I keep hearing about this 
'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.> > Anyone have the numbers to back 
this up?> > The increased 'demand' for ethanol in the US, is at least 
partially> due to the gigantic surpluses of 'feed corn' over the last decade.> 
That corn is only food in an abstract sense, it's mostly all starch,> not 
edible directly. I'm sure this year the corn yields will be down,> no doubt. 
But somehow, I don't see the correlation.> > > > -- > Chip Mefford> 
> Before Enlightenment;> chop wood> carry water> After 
Enlightenment;> chop wood> carry water> -> Public Key> 
http://www.well.com/user/cpm> > 
___> Biofuel mailing list> 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel> > Biofuel 
at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the 
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000> messages):> 
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> > 
___> Biofuel mailing list> 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel> > Biofuel 
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combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):> 
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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Steve Moran]

Don't farmers have the right to sell their corn to whoever they want to
sell it too?  Even if corn is going to make ethanol, so?  So the world
has increased its demand for oil, and that means that oil costs more,
that means that we need to find ways to offset that, so we make corn
into ethanol, and now corn costs more.  Maybe if the oil producing
countries of the world didn't need indoor skiing and rotating towers(see
Dubai), and such a large profit margin, then we would have gone along
consuming just like we had been.  Oil costs around $1-$15 to produce a
barrel.  It's sold at $143 a barrel.  Someone's making a helluva profit
in there.  Even barring the fact that some of this corn is being
diverted to other uses, it costs more to produce it when diesel goes up.
Those tractors don't run on water.  



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chip Mefford
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 12:14 PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths


Keith Addison wrote:
> http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552
> 
> Seedling  > July 2008
> 
> The food emergency and food myths
> 
> Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices
> 
> Vandana Shiva *

I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and very well
thought out.

That said;


 >SNIP
> agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and 
> through the hijacking of food into biofuels, 


I keep hearing about this 'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.

Anyone have the numbers to back this up?

The increased 'demand' for ethanol in the US, is at least partially
due to the gigantic surpluses of 'feed corn' over the last decade.
That corn is only food in an abstract sense, it's mostly all starch,
not edible directly. I'm sure this year the corn yields will be down,
no doubt. But somehow, I don't see the correlation.



-- 
Chip Mefford

Before Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
After Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
-
Public Key
http://www.well.com/user/cpm

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messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] The food emergency and food myths

[Chip Mefford]

Keith Addison wrote:
> http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=552
> 
> Seedling  > July 2008
> 
> The food emergency and food myths
> 
> Why Bush is wrong to blame Indians for the rise in food prices
> 
> Vandana Shiva *

I really enjoy Vandana Shiva's input. It's clueful and very well
thought out.

That said;


 >SNIP
> agribusiness in the current food crisis, both through speculation and 
> through the hijacking of food into biofuels, 


I keep hearing about this 'hijacking of food into biofuels' argument.

Anyone have the numbers to back this up?

The increased 'demand' for ethanol in the US, is at least partially
due to the gigantic surpluses of 'feed corn' over the last decade.
That corn is only food in an abstract sense, it's mostly all starch,
not edible directly. I'm sure this year the corn yields will be down,
no doubt. But somehow, I don't see the correlation.



-- 
Chip Mefford

Before Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
After Enlightenment;
chop wood
carry water
-
Public Key
http://www.well.com/user/cpm

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