Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Darren, what a find...a really exciting report. This oil is nothing more than cold pressed and well filtered oil (5um). NO degumming . My understanding of de-centralised oil production in Germany (from German friends) is that it is very simple (KISS principle...Keep It Simple Stupid) and is basically cold pressed and filtered oil. No degumming is carried out. Regards Steven Darren Hill wrote: > > >>>I'll >>>try and find more details about the refining processes used in the >>>German mills. >>> >>> > >and so I did nothing, but stumbled upon this... > >http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de/Flottenv.pdf > >Google translated excerpts > >"the fleet attempt with 60 Mer cedes Benz car showed that the >pre-chamber diesel engines reequipped on exclusive enterprise with >vegetable oil can be operated both also full-refined and with >decentralized won vegetable oil reliably and maintenance-poor. The >emissions of soot, sulfur and krebserregenden particles can be reduced >and fossil fuels be substituted. That CO 2 cycle can be closed >approximately. In the meantime over 200 vehicles were reequipped." > >" Operational experiences > >The fleet attempt one planned on approximately 2 1/2 years. The >vehicles were regularly examined in this time, in order to be able to >determine possible cokings in the cylinder and wear in the engine. >Parts of the fleet were refuelled with decentralized won, coldly >pressed, filtered vegetable oil, with full raffinate as well as with a >mixture of both vegetable oils, in order to examine the necessity for a >refining. The workshop reports show that the enterprise of the diesel >engines with vegetable oil led also after 300.000 km to no considerable >technical problems. The enterprise also full-refined vegetable oil >resulted in no engine and technical restrictions. The employment of >decentralized won vegetable oil led at first depending upon filter >purity of the oil guns to technical restrictions. Thus it came e.g. to >a Verschlammung of the fuel system, if the maximum particle size in the >vegetable oil exceeded 5 mm. Besides a relatively fast blockage of the >fuel filter was observed. As immediate measure by the installation of a >second fuel filter with simple to serving surrounding lever the >suitability for operation was improved clearly. In the meantime >filter-pure, full-suited vegetable oil is available by changes at the >filter system of the central oil mill. Energetic concept in the phase 1 >at first some passenger cars with refined vegetable oil from large oil >mills were operated, which was bought over wholesale dealers. The other >vehicles drove with cold pressed, filtered and ent schleimtem rapeseel >oil. Later the cars with decentralized won and filtered rapeseel oil >were operated." > > >Does not clarify if the decentralized mills oil is degummed or not >(unless I'm missing something) but does suggest that the oil has fairly >minimal processing. > >Darren > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.541 / Virus Database: 335 - Release Date: 14/11/2003 > > > > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
> >I'll > >try and find more details about the refining processes used in the > >German mills. > and so I did nothing, but stumbled upon this... http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de/Flottenv.pdf Google translated excerpts "the fleet attempt with 60 Mer cedes Benz car showed that the pre-chamber diesel engines reequipped on exclusive enterprise with vegetable oil can be operated both also full-refined and with decentralized won vegetable oil reliably and maintenance-poor. The emissions of soot, sulfur and krebserregenden particles can be reduced and fossil fuels be substituted. That CO 2 cycle can be closed approximately. In the meantime over 200 vehicles were reequipped." " Operational experiences The fleet attempt one planned on approximately 2 1/2 years. The vehicles were regularly examined in this time, in order to be able to determine possible cokings in the cylinder and wear in the engine. Parts of the fleet were refuelled with decentralized won, coldly pressed, filtered vegetable oil, with full raffinate as well as with a mixture of both vegetable oils, in order to examine the necessity for a refining. The workshop reports show that the enterprise of the diesel engines with vegetable oil led also after 300.000 km to no considerable technical problems. The enterprise also full-refined vegetable oil resulted in no engine and technical restrictions. The employment of decentralized won vegetable oil led at first depending upon filter purity of the oil guns to technical restrictions. Thus it came e.g. to a Verschlammung of the fuel system, if the maximum particle size in the vegetable oil exceeded 5 mm. Besides a relatively fast blockage of the fuel filter was observed. As immediate measure by the installation of a second fuel filter with simple to serving surrounding lever the suitability for operation was improved clearly. In the meantime filter-pure, full-suited vegetable oil is available by changes at the filter system of the central oil mill. Energetic concept in the phase 1 at first some passenger cars with refined vegetable oil from large oil mills were operated, which was bought over wholesale dealers. The other vehicles drove with cold pressed, filtered and ent schleimtem rapeseel oil. Later the cars with decentralized won and filtered rapeseel oil were operated." Does not clarify if the decentralized mills oil is degummed or not (unless I'm missing something) but does suggest that the oil has fairly minimal processing. Darren --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.541 / Virus Database: 335 - Release Date: 14/11/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Darren, as per the ACREVO report, 9%. Make sure you use ethanol not methanol. The methanol will break from the emulsion and sit happily in a seperate layer within an hour. Whereas the ethanol will stay in emulsion. I'm not sure about the cetane improver or the peroxide (eg I don't have a chemical background) but they sound like they could well be worth a try. Give me some suggestionsplease! Darren Hill wrote: >Steven, > >Nice to hear some first hand experiences. > >What ratio was your ethanol/SVO emulsion and what engine is in your Ute? > >What would be the tax implications for you if you added a cetane >improver such as 2-ethyl hexyl nitrate, a suitable fat based nitrate or >a suitable peroxide - ditertiary butyl peroxide? > >Darren > > > > >>-Original Message- >>From: Steven & Helen Hobbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Sent: 12 November 2003 20:28 >>To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or >> >> >hybrid? > > >>Why not Both!!] >> >>G'day all >>I thought it was time for me to chip in on this one, as this a real >>focus of interest, and is one of the few ways you can legally use a >>renewable fuel in Australia without excise obligations. >> >>I am a farmer in Australia who own his own (allbeit small) oil >> >> >expeller > > >>(Keller KEK). I have been growing Canola, extracting & filtering the >>oil, processing the oil into biodiesel, using it in my machinery and >>selling the press cake. Because of the implications of the proposed >>taxation of biodiesel, I will be paying tax on a renewable fuel that I >>produce myself. Because of the cost of testing and the volume I make, >>even if the fuel I produce meets the proposed Australian standard, I >>have been informed I cannot access the manufacturers rebate (because I >>dont produce 5,000,000 litres pa) and since the cost of testing will >> >> >add > > >>somewhere $1 to $5 per litre, It won't obviously be tested, and I >>therefore won't be able to claim the energy credits because it dosn't >>meet the proposed standard! >> >>After reading the ACREVO report and the mentioned German report last >>year, I began using crude canola oil emulsified with ethanol, through >> >> >a > > >>customised dual tank SVO system (parts from Neoteric biofuels). The >> >> >fuel > > >>worked really well, until the ATO(Tax office) informed me that by >> >> >using > > >>an excisable co-solvent, excise was therefore liable to be paid on the >>entire volume of fuel, simply not on the emulsified volume. Since >> >> >then, > > >>I have been using crude, filtered, canola oil and the ute is still >>going. To me it seems as long as you do the startup and shut down >>sequence on biodiesel or fossil fuel, any deposits may be "flushed". >>By the way, crude canola oil is not classified as a fuel. >> >> > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 31/10/2003 > > > > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > >. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
G'day Keith As far as solid resultsno. Yes as per ACREVO report, 9% ethanol emulsified into the vege oil. I found the fuel excellent and it burned cleaned at the exhaust. Talking to a couple of other fellas, they also have tried it and it worked well, but they did caution that some fuel injector pumps have some components that are susceptible to failure when exposed long term to ethanol. As far as long term study of SVO/PPO I don't think anyone here (Australia) is really interested in it, and would rather rely on information coming out of Europe. I keep in touch with Keller & Co as they are involved with the PPO project and give me some idea of what is happening. The Germans are doing really excellent stuff. Best regards Steven Keith Addison wrote: >G'day Steven > >Did you get any solid results with the ethanol blend - any tests done >on the motor or emissions? I presume you were using ACREVO's 9% of >95% ethanol? > >Good news that you've been having success with crude canola, >undegummed. I hope you'll monitor it closely so that the beginnings >of a benchmark can be established. Unfortunately "the ute is still >going", while encouraging (maybe it'll encourage others), won't >persuade any powers-that-be, nor authorities - they'll want proper >measures that can be nailed to the wall and stay there. A bit like >the results we've had so far with using biodiesel as 2-stroke oil >(usually at about double the OEM recommendation srength): promising, >but no long-term results and no data yet. SVO/WVO is itself in that >situation, though less and less so. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > > >>G'day all >>I thought it was time for me to chip in on this one, as this a real >>focus of interest, and is one of the few ways you can legally use a >>renewable fuel in Australia without excise obligations. >> >>I am a farmer in Australia who own his own (allbeit small) oil expeller >>(Keller KEK). I have been growing Canola, extracting & filtering the >>oil, processing the oil into biodiesel, using it in my machinery and >>selling the press cake. Because of the implications of the proposed >>taxation of biodiesel, I will be paying tax on a renewable fuel that I >>produce myself. Because of the cost of testing and the volume I make, >>even if the fuel I produce meets the proposed Australian standard, I >>have been informed I cannot access the manufacturers rebate (because I >>dont produce 5,000,000 litres pa) and since the cost of testing will add >>somewhere $1 to $5 per litre, It won't obviously be tested, and I >>therefore won't be able to claim the energy credits because it dosn't >>meet the proposed standard! >> >>After reading the ACREVO report and the mentioned German report last >>year, I began using crude canola oil emulsified with ethanol, through a >>customised dual tank SVO system (parts from Neoteric biofuels). The fuel >>worked really well, until the ATO(Tax office) informed me that by using >>an excisable co-solvent, excise was therefore liable to be paid on the >>entire volume of fuel, simply not on the emulsified volume. Since then, >>I have been using crude, filtered, canola oil and the ute is still >>going. To me it seems as long as you do the startup and shut down >>sequence on biodiesel or fossil fuel, any deposits may be "flushed". >>By the way, crude canola oil is not classified as a fuel. >> >>Best regards >> >>Steven >> >> >>Keith Addison wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Darren >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >And that its removal is necessary: > >"It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) >or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil >leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine >coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes >particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems >can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to >food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." >http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm >Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil > > > > > I have read this report (I've got it linked form my site) yet this information had not sunk in, thanks for pointing this out. Even so as I said the paper I read does not mention that the numerous small scale rapeseed fuel oil mills (many of them operated by farmers) degum their fuel oil, and it does go into some detail about the crude oil treatment. I guess that either this information was omitted or that the Germans find it unnecessary. >>>If they find it unnecessary I'd be interested to know what they've >>>based that conclusion on. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The information (above) that you posted would suggest gummed oil not being a problem above 2 deg C. >>>I don't think it suggests that, it just
Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
G'day Steven Did you get any solid results with the ethanol blend - any tests done on the motor or emissions? I presume you were using ACREVO's 9% of 95% ethanol? Good news that you've been having success with crude canola, undegummed. I hope you'll monitor it closely so that the beginnings of a benchmark can be established. Unfortunately "the ute is still going", while encouraging (maybe it'll encourage others), won't persuade any powers-that-be, nor authorities - they'll want proper measures that can be nailed to the wall and stay there. A bit like the results we've had so far with using biodiesel as 2-stroke oil (usually at about double the OEM recommendation srength): promising, but no long-term results and no data yet. SVO/WVO is itself in that situation, though less and less so. Best wishes Keith >G'day all >I thought it was time for me to chip in on this one, as this a real >focus of interest, and is one of the few ways you can legally use a >renewable fuel in Australia without excise obligations. > >I am a farmer in Australia who own his own (allbeit small) oil expeller >(Keller KEK). I have been growing Canola, extracting & filtering the >oil, processing the oil into biodiesel, using it in my machinery and >selling the press cake. Because of the implications of the proposed >taxation of biodiesel, I will be paying tax on a renewable fuel that I >produce myself. Because of the cost of testing and the volume I make, >even if the fuel I produce meets the proposed Australian standard, I >have been informed I cannot access the manufacturers rebate (because I >dont produce 5,000,000 litres pa) and since the cost of testing will add >somewhere $1 to $5 per litre, It won't obviously be tested, and I >therefore won't be able to claim the energy credits because it dosn't >meet the proposed standard! > >After reading the ACREVO report and the mentioned German report last >year, I began using crude canola oil emulsified with ethanol, through a >customised dual tank SVO system (parts from Neoteric biofuels). The fuel >worked really well, until the ATO(Tax office) informed me that by using >an excisable co-solvent, excise was therefore liable to be paid on the >entire volume of fuel, simply not on the emulsified volume. Since then, >I have been using crude, filtered, canola oil and the ute is still >going. To me it seems as long as you do the startup and shut down >sequence on biodiesel or fossil fuel, any deposits may be "flushed". >By the way, crude canola oil is not classified as a fuel. > >Best regards > >Steven > > >Keith Addison wrote: > > >Hi Darren > > > > > > > > > > > >>>And that its removal is necessary: > >>> > >>>"It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) > >>>or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil > >>>leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine > >>>coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes > >>>particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems > >>>can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to > >>>food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." > >>>http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm > >>>Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I have read this report (I've got it linked form my site) yet this > >>information had not sunk in, thanks for pointing this out. > >> > >>Even so as I said the paper I read does not mention that the numerous > >>small scale rapeseed fuel oil mills (many of them operated by farmers) > >>degum their fuel oil, and it does go into some detail about the crude > >>oil treatment. I guess that either this information was omitted or that > >>the Germans find it unnecessary. > >> > >> > > > >If they find it unnecessary I'd be interested to know what they've > >based that conclusion on. > > > > > > > >>The information (above) that you > >>posted would suggest gummed oil not being a problem above 2 deg C. > >> > >> > > > >I don't think it suggests that, it just says it's worse below 2 deg > >C, and that's just the gel formation bit, not the filter blockages > >and engine coking. The gel formation would be an added nuisance as > >rapeseed oil should have a melting point of -10 deg C. > > > > > > > >>I'll > >>try and find more details about the refining processes used in the > >>German mills. > >> > >> > > > >Please let us know what you find. > > > >By the way... > > > > > > > >>I don't know that I would call it excellent, in need of some revision, > >>but thank you. > >> > >> > > > >You're welcome, and I do think it's excellent, but I should say that > >if your website doesn't need revision at any time then either it's > >not much of a website or you really need to get a life! :-) (At least > >that's what I try telling myself sometimes...) > > > >Best > > > >Keith > > > > > > > >>Best > >> > >>Darren Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--
RE: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Steven, Nice to hear some first hand experiences. What ratio was your ethanol/SVO emulsion and what engine is in your Ute? What would be the tax implications for you if you added a cetane improver such as 2-ethyl hexyl nitrate, a suitable fat based nitrate or a suitable peroxide - ditertiary butyl peroxide? Darren > -Original Message- > From: Steven & Helen Hobbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 12 November 2003 20:28 > To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? > Why not Both!!] > > G'day all > I thought it was time for me to chip in on this one, as this a real > focus of interest, and is one of the few ways you can legally use a > renewable fuel in Australia without excise obligations. > > I am a farmer in Australia who own his own (allbeit small) oil expeller > (Keller KEK). I have been growing Canola, extracting & filtering the > oil, processing the oil into biodiesel, using it in my machinery and > selling the press cake. Because of the implications of the proposed > taxation of biodiesel, I will be paying tax on a renewable fuel that I > produce myself. Because of the cost of testing and the volume I make, > even if the fuel I produce meets the proposed Australian standard, I > have been informed I cannot access the manufacturers rebate (because I > dont produce 5,000,000 litres pa) and since the cost of testing will add > somewhere $1 to $5 per litre, It won't obviously be tested, and I > therefore won't be able to claim the energy credits because it dosn't > meet the proposed standard! > > After reading the ACREVO report and the mentioned German report last > year, I began using crude canola oil emulsified with ethanol, through a > customised dual tank SVO system (parts from Neoteric biofuels). The fuel > worked really well, until the ATO(Tax office) informed me that by using > an excisable co-solvent, excise was therefore liable to be paid on the > entire volume of fuel, simply not on the emulsified volume. Since then, > I have been using crude, filtered, canola oil and the ute is still > going. To me it seems as long as you do the startup and shut down > sequence on biodiesel or fossil fuel, any deposits may be "flushed". > By the way, crude canola oil is not classified as a fuel. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 31/10/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
G'day all I thought it was time for me to chip in on this one, as this a real focus of interest, and is one of the few ways you can legally use a renewable fuel in Australia without excise obligations. I am a farmer in Australia who own his own (allbeit small) oil expeller (Keller KEK). I have been growing Canola, extracting & filtering the oil, processing the oil into biodiesel, using it in my machinery and selling the press cake. Because of the implications of the proposed taxation of biodiesel, I will be paying tax on a renewable fuel that I produce myself. Because of the cost of testing and the volume I make, even if the fuel I produce meets the proposed Australian standard, I have been informed I cannot access the manufacturers rebate (because I dont produce 5,000,000 litres pa) and since the cost of testing will add somewhere $1 to $5 per litre, It won't obviously be tested, and I therefore won't be able to claim the energy credits because it dosn't meet the proposed standard! After reading the ACREVO report and the mentioned German report last year, I began using crude canola oil emulsified with ethanol, through a customised dual tank SVO system (parts from Neoteric biofuels). The fuel worked really well, until the ATO(Tax office) informed me that by using an excisable co-solvent, excise was therefore liable to be paid on the entire volume of fuel, simply not on the emulsified volume. Since then, I have been using crude, filtered, canola oil and the ute is still going. To me it seems as long as you do the startup and shut down sequence on biodiesel or fossil fuel, any deposits may be "flushed". By the way, crude canola oil is not classified as a fuel. Best regards Steven Keith Addison wrote: >Hi Darren > > > > > >>>And that its removal is necessary: >>> >>>"It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) >>>or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil >>>leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine >>>coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes >>>particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems >>>can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to >>>food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." >>>http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm >>>Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil >>> >>> >>> >>I have read this report (I've got it linked form my site) yet this >>information had not sunk in, thanks for pointing this out. >> >>Even so as I said the paper I read does not mention that the numerous >>small scale rapeseed fuel oil mills (many of them operated by farmers) >>degum their fuel oil, and it does go into some detail about the crude >>oil treatment. I guess that either this information was omitted or that >>the Germans find it unnecessary. >> >> > >If they find it unnecessary I'd be interested to know what they've >based that conclusion on. > > > >>The information (above) that you >>posted would suggest gummed oil not being a problem above 2 deg C. >> >> > >I don't think it suggests that, it just says it's worse below 2 deg >C, and that's just the gel formation bit, not the filter blockages >and engine coking. The gel formation would be an added nuisance as >rapeseed oil should have a melting point of -10 deg C. > > > >>I'll >>try and find more details about the refining processes used in the >>German mills. >> >> > >Please let us know what you find. > >By the way... > > > >>I don't know that I would call it excellent, in need of some revision, >>but thank you. >> >> > >You're welcome, and I do think it's excellent, but I should say that >if your website doesn't need revision at any time then either it's >not much of a website or you really need to get a life! :-) (At least >that's what I try telling myself sometimes...) > >Best > >Keith > > > >>Best >> >>Darren >> >> > > > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > >. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscri
RE: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Hi Darren > > And that its removal is necessary: > > > > "It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) > > or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil > > leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine > > coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes > > particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems > > can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to > > food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." > > http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm > > Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil > > > >I have read this report (I've got it linked form my site) yet this >information had not sunk in, thanks for pointing this out. > >Even so as I said the paper I read does not mention that the numerous >small scale rapeseed fuel oil mills (many of them operated by farmers) >degum their fuel oil, and it does go into some detail about the crude >oil treatment. I guess that either this information was omitted or that >the Germans find it unnecessary. If they find it unnecessary I'd be interested to know what they've based that conclusion on. >The information (above) that you >posted would suggest gummed oil not being a problem above 2 deg C. I don't think it suggests that, it just says it's worse below 2 deg C, and that's just the gel formation bit, not the filter blockages and engine coking. The gel formation would be an added nuisance as rapeseed oil should have a melting point of -10 deg C. >I'll >try and find more details about the refining processes used in the >German mills. Please let us know what you find. By the way... >I don't know that I would call it excellent, in need of some revision, >but thank you. You're welcome, and I do think it's excellent, but I should say that if your website doesn't need revision at any time then either it's not much of a website or you really need to get a life! :-) (At least that's what I try telling myself sometimes...) Best Keith >Best > >Darren Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Kieth > >I have recently read a paper > > > >PURIFICATION OF COLD PRESSED RAPESEED OIL TO USE AS A FUEL > >FOR ADAPTED DIESEL ENGINES > >E. Remmele 1 , B. Widmann 2 > >12th European Conference on Biomass for Energy, Industry and Climate > >Protection, 17-21 June 2002, Amsterdam, The Netherlands > > > >That details the processes used by the 180 or so small scale German oil > >mills for production of rapeseed oil fuel. The paper suggests that they > >cold press and then either use a filter or a sedimentation process > >followed by a safety filter and then the fuel is ready, complying with > >the Weihenstephan standard. > > ... as featured at the excellent VegBurner website at 9 Oil Types and > Filtering: > http://www.vegburner.co.uk/ > I don't know that I would call it excellent, in need of some revision, but thank you. > > >I guess that the level of production and usage of fuel from these mills > >would point to degumming being unnecessary with rapeseed oil? > > Seems it does contain gum: > > "Gums compose about 2% of solvent-extracted rapeseed oil (Salunkhe > et. al., 1992)." > http://www.wsu.edu/~gmhyde/433_web_pages/433Oil-web-pages/Rapeseed1/Ra > pe&Canola_oils_1.html > > And that its removal is necessary: > > "It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) > or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil > leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine > coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes > particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems > can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to > food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." > http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm > Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil > I have read this report (I've got it linked form my site) yet this information had not sunk in, thanks for pointing this out. Even so as I said the paper I read does not mention that the numerous small scale rapeseed fuel oil mills (many of them operated by farmers) degum their fuel oil, and it does go into some detail about the crude oil treatment. I guess that either this information was omitted or that the Germans find it unnecessary. The information (above) that you posted would suggest gummed oil not being a problem above 2 deg C. I'll try and find more details about the refining processes used in the German mills. Best Darren --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 31/10/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Degumming WAS Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Hi Darren >Keith, > > You wrote:- > > > Some studies have found that, others not. Some users have found that > > too, others not. It also depends on the oil being used, some > > polymerize much more easily than others. (Biodiesel made from those > > oils will also polymerise, but not as quickly.) It's something of an > > SVO myth that SVO can be produced from decentralized small oil > > expellers - ie straight from the plant. SVO must be refined first, > > including degumming. See "Straighter-than-straight vegetable oils as > > diesel fuels": > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Allen.html > > > >I have recently read a paper > >PURIFICATION OF COLD PRESSED RAPESEED OIL TO USE AS A FUEL >FOR ADAPTED DIESEL ENGINES >E. Remmele 1 , B. Widmann 2 >12th European Conference on Biomass for Energy, Industry and Climate >Protection, 17-21 June 2002, Amsterdam, The Netherlands > >That details the processes used by the 180 or so small scale German oil >mills for production of rapeseed oil fuel. The paper suggests that they >cold press and then either use a filter or a sedimentation process >followed by a safety filter and then the fuel is ready, complying with >the Weihenstephan standard. ... as featured at the excellent VegBurner website at 9 Oil Types and Filtering: http://www.vegburner.co.uk/ Hm, some familiar looking tables there. :-) Anyway... >I guess that the level of production and usage of fuel from these mills >would point to degumming being unnecessary with rapeseed oil? Seems it does contain gum: "Gums compose about 2% of solvent-extracted rapeseed oil (Salunkhe et. al., 1992)." http://www.wsu.edu/~gmhyde/433_web_pages/433Oil-web-pages/Rapeseed1/Ra pe&Canola_oils_1.html And that its removal is necessary: "It has been demonstrated that the use of crude (gum content c. 2%) or degummed crude (gum content of 1.4%, this study) rapeseed oil leads to performance problems including filter blockages and engine coking. Gums are a major precursor of gel formation which becomes particularly problematic at temperatures below 2 ¡C. These problems can be ameliorated by using rapeseed oil which has been degummed to food grade standard (gum content < 0.2 %)." http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil Best Keith >Darren Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
