Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:09:44 +0200, Garry Haywood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Richard, I'm sure there are many of in this situation! Our App is a combined HTML/SVG data UI solution for govt depts are who are all IE users They will not be going to any other browsers any time soon Pity ;) (including ie7) and Flash is not really a solution for us as one of the key issues for us, and a key reason for choosing ASV was (and remains) the need for users to have a rastered copy of the SVG for post-use, as when a user has found the data, made a chart and so on, 99 times out of 100 they want to paste it into a word document. Fortunately the guys at Renesis have included a 'copy image' function in their player so I'm hoping that Renesis activeX object gets a good wind behind it and comes by for when you and I both take our head's out of the sand! FWIW copy image to clipboard is also in Opera 9.01. Cheers /Erik -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Tell me about it, a complete nightmare. Our apps solely work on SVG with some large companies and we are rewriting our apps to work on IE and all the Native SVG browsers coming out. The headache for me is these large companies are phasing out Flash availability in the company. Yep no flash player allowed to be installed, so I cannot (wouldnt anyway) move to flash. 3 companies IT depts have already confirmed this, SVG is ok luckily, but lo and behold, they use IE Im also standing at the crossroads, the only thing that keeps me going is the hope that Adobe dropping SVG is realised by some one at MS to see this as an opportunity to get back at Adobe and grasp back the browser market. I think im going to bury my head in the sand for 6 months, hope an alternative is on the way, if there isnt then probably s**t my pants and find another way. Sorry this has been useless info but had to get it off my chest. Richard From: Ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:14:34 - Hi all, I'm just in the process of developing an SVG application using AJAX and PHP for a client. The idea of Adobe backing out of the Adobe SVG field is causing some concern and to be honest I'd like to know what real options are available out there otherwise I'll be tempted to move over to Flash MX. The real bonus for this product I'm developing is indeed cost, it's practically free BUT I need to know that the application based on SVG is going to be suitable for the client long into the future. If I can't gurantee that, then I need to look for a solution that is more long-term. What effect is the loss of Adobe SVG plugin going to have on coding? Will my javascript/php code need to change? Will I need to make changes to the servers to allow new SVG plugins/browsers to work? Will I have to install anything new, complicated onto users machines? Will SVG remain widely supported by the open source community? I feel very much as though I should stop current development before I've invested too much time in a solution that is not suitable or worse sustainable. SVG has been a life-saver and to think I might have to move over to another product kinda annoys the hell out of me. Ben _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
A nice discussion .. hard to refrain to add my point of view ... Obviously ASV is widely deployed on intranets (and to some extent on internet also) of companies to help building really useful graphic applications. I think the reason is SVG is way superior (and much simpler to implement) to Flash when it comes to real practical problems of interacting with data and no fancy gradient or animations stuff is needed. For these practical applications though we need a performant viewer (able to hand dynamic interaction for svg of size typically over 500 Ko note that on a standard workstation even ASV is too slow for this when the svg is over say 1.5 Mo) ASV has offered this for free and that was great. Unfortunately for adobe (as I see it) the combination of public format + great simplicity of SVG has made commercial authoring tool no really necessary to build such applications ... I am completely certain that companies for whom we deploy this kind of applications would pay (reasonably priced) licences for a performant viewer. So why does Adobe does not goes that way ? I do not think that would compete with Flash Best JD - Original Message - From: pschonefeld To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Hi Pat, The organisation that I am currently doing work for has asked me to bring to the attention of Adobe their interest in SVG with a view to seeking (perhaps off-line) information on Adobe's roadmap for SVG support. This large organisation is currently running five business systems that utilise ASV as the primary means for rendering spatial information visualisations. External customers use two of these systems. In addition to these five systems, there is a product under development that utilises the browser plug-in as part of its graphical user interface. As I am sure you appreciate, this organisation is very interested in maintaining an environment of support for the Adobe SVG Viewer or a reliable alternative. We look forward to your reply. Regards Peter Schonefeld SVG Developer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Doug Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D interpretes SVG into VML for IE and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. What would happen if IE get rid of VML? Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on the above as you have some experience in this area. Many thanks Richard From: Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:11:54 -0400 Hi, Richard- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and Safari, but IE is still the main browser. I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh dear. Well, I don't think it's all that confusing. The choices really break down to 3 options: 1) hope/work toward SVG support in IE, either native or via a plugin (EmiaSys and all others mentioned on this list fall into this category) 2) use an abstracted framework that delivers whatever graphics format is appropriate for the target platform (Ajax, Dojo2d, laszlo all fall into this category) 3) use some other technology (XAML and Flash [possibly laszlo?] fall into this category) I'm avoiding category 3 like the plague. The nice thing is that categories 1 and 2 are orthogonal... a business can use a framework, and when IE SVG support is stable, reexamine if they still need that framework. It can be a permanent commitment (dojo has a lot of advantages apart from SVG) or a stopgap. I can tell you what my company is considering doing, and maybe that might help inform your choices. We are already using dojo, so we will be investigating how well our content can be presented in dojo2D. I admit to some initial skepticism; VML is really limited, but I will follow up on it and see how much can be done. If it is designed correctly, it could deliver SVG to FF, Opera, Safari, etc., VML to base IE, and SVG to IE+SVG (either via plug-in or native, down the line). dojo2D pros: * abstracted development layer * browser independent * doesn't matter if IE has an SVG plug-in or not dojo2D cons: * dependence on dojo framework (not so bad for my company) * new abstracted layer to learn * may not be as full-featured as programming to native SVG implementations (lowest common denominator) But my real aim is finding a replacement for ASV. Having spent a few days taking stock of our options, I am pretty confident that with the will behind this group, the commercial opportunities and incentives for other companies, and the available resources (both open and closed source), we will be able to get at least fair SVG support for IE. Of course, Adobe could help this along by providing the code to help us do this, rather than aggressively attacking SVG. As has been said before, they have every right to stop supporting ASV, but their next move determines how they will be seen in doing so. Regards- -Doug _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi, Richard- My experience with Dojo is not all that comprehensive, and like you, I'm just starting to look into Dojo2D (I'd exchanged emails with Gavin Doughtie, but only on a preliminary level). But I'll answer your questions as best I can. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D interpretes SVG into VML for IE That is the current plan, yes. and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. Well, the whole point of using Dojo is that you would be using Dojo's abstracted layer, so you wouldn't make 2 codebases, one with SVG and one with the Dojo2D framework... you would simply use Dojo, and it would deliver the content in a way that the browser understands. What would happen if IE get rid of VML? Theoretically, Dojo could then change its low-level code to target whatever vector-format *is* available in IE, and you wouldn't have to change your high-level code. Maybe it would render it as Flash, or XAML, or best case, SVG if IE substituted VML for SVG or if a common plug-in were available. Worst-case scenario, they could raterize it on the server, perhaps, and deliver static PNGs (or even animated MNGs, if they were supported). Some small level of interactivity could even be preserved by using on-the-fly imagemaps. Naturally, this would take time and a reworking of the open-source Dojo2D library, but I'm sure that MS will not abandon VML without fair warning (then again, I didn't think Adobe would give such short notice either). Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on the above as you have some experience in this area. But let me close by saying that while looking into other options is prudent (I'm doing it myself), there's actually a lot that can happen in 4 months, and even more in a year and 4 months. It's not like the SVG implementors would be starting from scratch. There are suitable SVG viewers out there that need only to be adapted as IE plug-ins. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
I spose we are now in the hands of http://www.gosvg.net/ From: Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:30:16 -0700 As of when??!?!?!!? What happened??? Leonard -- Hi Leonard (and the other 7455 people on this list), I changed jobs in May, leaving Adobe to join IBM's Emerging Technologies group to help with OpenAjax. I left Adobe for IBM because this OpenAjax opportunity was just too attractive, even though my previous assignments at Adobe were also interesting and fun. (OK. I'll come clean. The REAL reason was I felt hugely embarrassed about living in Silicon Valley and not changing jobs in 13 years.) Here are some URLs on OpenAjax: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19187.wss - OpenAjax launched with 15 original members http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19623.wss - OpenAjax gains 13 additional members http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78577_HNajaxforge_1.html - Press report on first OpenAjax Alliance meeting http://ajax.sys-con.com/read/233247.htm - About me taking the reins There will be a lot more information about OpenAjax in the coming weeks. In particular, we are about to unveil our web site, a white paper, outline definition of the OpenAjax Hub (and associated open source project), announcements of new members, and have our second face-to-face meeting. Very cool stuff. Maybe not as cool as SVG or next-generation PDF, but cool nonetheless, and as I have mentioned in previous emails, SVG is becoming a component technology of Ajax. (And I can now hang my head high again in Silicon Valley due to having job-hopped recently.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _ Windows Live Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
yeah, I'm waiting for that one ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] schreef: I spose we are now in the hands of http://www.gosvg.net/ From: Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:30:16 -0700 As of when??!?!?!!? What happened??? Leonard -- Hi Leonard (and the other 7455 people on this list), I changed jobs in May, leaving Adobe to join IBM's Emerging Technologies group to help with OpenAjax. I left Adobe for IBM because this OpenAjax opportunity was just too attractive, even though my previous assignments at Adobe were also interesting and fun. (OK. I'll come clean. The REAL reason was I felt hugely embarrassed about living in Silicon Valley and not changing jobs in 13 years.) Here are some URLs on OpenAjax: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19187.wss - OpenAjax launched with 15 original members http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19623.wss - OpenAjax gains 13 additional members http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78577_HNajaxforge_1.html - Press report on first OpenAjax Alliance meeting http://ajax.sys-con.com/read/233247.htm - About me taking the reins There will be a lot more information about OpenAjax in the coming weeks. In particular, we are about to unveil our web site, a white paper, outline definition of the OpenAjax Hub (and associated open source project), announcements of new members, and have our second face-to-face meeting. Very cool stuff. Maybe not as cool as SVG or next-generation PDF, but cool nonetheless, and as I have mentioned in previous emails, SVG is becoming a component technology of Ajax. (And I can now hang my head high again in Silicon Valley due to having job-hopped recently.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _ Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Actually, there are a number of options at this point. For one thing, the existence of a free browser plugin from Adobe, which hoped to bring in revenues from serverside sales, made it difficult for competitors to offer alternative browser plugins. For example, there are a number of svgt1.2 viewers out there, any one of which could be turned into a low-cost svg plugin into IE if the vendors find an alluring business case. However, the appearance that MS are working on an svg solution for IE8 means that any vendor thinking of going with a plugin for their viewer has a limited window of opportunity. It is far too early in the development of the demise of ASV to assume the worst-case scenarios. They have created a vacuum for IE, and either someone will fill it or IE users who want SVG will move to another platform. After all, IE now has less than 80% of the platform worldwide, and in Europe that number is far, far lower. When IE is missing a feature, that is no longer the feature's demise, and is more yet another drop in user base for IE (hence their working on an svg solution). On Saturday 09 September 2006 10:50, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I spose we are now in the hands of http://www.gosvg.net/ From: Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:30:16 -0700 As of when??!?!?!!? What happened??? Leonard -- Hi Leonard (and the other 7455 people on this list), I changed jobs in May, leaving Adobe to join IBM's Emerging Technologies group to help with OpenAjax. I left Adobe for IBM because this OpenAjax opportunity was just too attractive, even though my previous assignments at Adobe were also interesting and fun. (OK. I'll come clean. The REAL reason was I felt hugely embarrassed about living in Silicon Valley and not changing jobs in 13 years.) Here are some URLs on OpenAjax: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19187.wss - OpenAjax launched with 15 original members http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19623.wss - OpenAjax gains 13 additional members http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78577_HNajaxforge_1.html - Press report on first OpenAjax Alliance meeting http://ajax.sys-con.com/read/233247.htm - About me taking the reins There will be a lot more information about OpenAjax in the coming weeks. In particular, we are about to unveil our web site, a white paper, outline definition of the OpenAjax Hub (and associated open source project), announcements of new members, and have our second face-to-face meeting. Very cool stuff. Maybe not as cool as SVG or next-generation PDF, but cool nonetheless, and as I have mentioned in previous emails, SVG is becoming a component technology of Ajax. (And I can now hang my head high again in Silicon Valley due to having job-hopped recently.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _ Windows Live� Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ronan Oger Director RO IT Systems GmbH ...Building Web2.0 with SVG since 2001 http://www.roitsystems.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I spose we are now in the hands of http://www.gosvg.net/ I just want to note here that the team behind the Renesis SVG viewer is under new management... there is a new company, EmiaSys, with only the core technical staff, and with a different financial backer. From what I understand, the original parent company, EvolGrafiX, was a source of a lot of the frustrations we felt. I think we should keep an open mind about the Renesis platform. I've been talking to EmiaSys casually for a couple months as an SVG WG member (they've been asking about some technical matters related to SVG Tiny 1.2) and they seem much more focused than before. But I agree with Ronan's post in this thread. There are several options out there, including existing SVG viewers that haven't bothered to create plug-ins for IE because Adobe had already staked that ground out. This does represent an opportunity for one or more companies to prove their mettle. I would like to see several viewers available... not just for redundancy, but to drive innovation. Even if IE ends up supporting SVG, we won't know to what degree or how cross-browser compatible it will be, so as a business decision, I would like to have the option to distribute an alternate viewer of my choosing that has all the features that I need. I would not be surprised if companies using SVG would pay for support and distribution contracts, something Adobe never offered. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Doug Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and Safari, but IE is still the main browser. I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh dear. Richard From: Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:36:40 -0400 Hi- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I spose we are now in the hands of http://www.gosvg.net/ I just want to note here that the team behind the Renesis SVG viewer is under new management... there is a new company, EmiaSys, with only the core technical staff, and with a different financial backer. From what I understand, the original parent company, EvolGrafiX, was a source of a lot of the frustrations we felt. I think we should keep an open mind about the Renesis platform. I've been talking to EmiaSys casually for a couple months as an SVG WG member (they've been asking about some technical matters related to SVG Tiny 1.2) and they seem much more focused than before. But I agree with Ronan's post in this thread. There are several options out there, including existing SVG viewers that haven't bothered to create plug-ins for IE because Adobe had already staked that ground out. This does represent an opportunity for one or more companies to prove their mettle. I would like to see several viewers available... not just for redundancy, but to drive innovation. Even if IE ends up supporting SVG, we won't know to what degree or how cross-browser compatible it will be, so as a business decision, I would like to have the option to distribute an alternate viewer of my choosing that has all the features that I need. I would not be surprised if companies using SVG would pay for support and distribution contracts, something Adobe never offered. Regards- -Doug _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi, Richard- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and Safari, but IE is still the main browser. I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh dear. Well, I don't think it's all that confusing. The choices really break down to 3 options: 1) hope/work toward SVG support in IE, either native or via a plugin (EmiaSys and all others mentioned on this list fall into this category) 2) use an abstracted framework that delivers whatever graphics format is appropriate for the target platform (Ajax, Dojo2d, laszlo all fall into this category) 3) use some other technology (XAML and Flash [possibly laszlo?] fall into this category) I'm avoiding category 3 like the plague. The nice thing is that categories 1 and 2 are orthogonal... a business can use a framework, and when IE SVG support is stable, reexamine if they still need that framework. It can be a permanent commitment (dojo has a lot of advantages apart from SVG) or a stopgap. I can tell you what my company is considering doing, and maybe that might help inform your choices. We are already using dojo, so we will be investigating how well our content can be presented in dojo2D. I admit to some initial skepticism; VML is really limited, but I will follow up on it and see how much can be done. If it is designed correctly, it could deliver SVG to FF, Opera, Safari, etc., VML to base IE, and SVG to IE+SVG (either via plug-in or native, down the line). dojo2D pros: * abstracted development layer * browser independent * doesn't matter if IE has an SVG plug-in or not dojo2D cons: * dependence on dojo framework (not so bad for my company) * new abstracted layer to learn * may not be as full-featured as programming to native SVG implementations (lowest common denominator) But my real aim is finding a replacement for ASV. Having spent a few days taking stock of our options, I am pretty confident that with the will behind this group, the commercial opportunities and incentives for other companies, and the available resources (both open and closed source), we will be able to get at least fair SVG support for IE. Of course, Adobe could help this along by providing the code to help us do this, rather than aggressively attacking SVG. As has been said before, they have every right to stop supporting ASV, but their next move determines how they will be seen in doing so. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
On 9/6/06, jon_ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pat, Now that I am a member of the community and no longer an employee of Adobe, here is my reaction: As of when??!?!?!!? What happened??? Leonard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Let's ask adobe to opensource adobe svg viewer I think there is no opensource svg viewer for IE at the moment (I know, there is mozilla , but ) jon_ferraiolo wrote: Hi Marc, I think you misunderstood me. I was replying to Margie about how best to encourage Adobe to change their policy. I agree that Adobe isn't likely to rethink their commitment to Flash/Flex, but they might rethink some other things, such as making ASV available for downloads after 1/1/08, supporting ASV beyond 1/1/07, and/or donating the source code to open source. Jon --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, m_verstaen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon, Do you seriously believe that Adobe will change its plans and modify the course of Flash/Flex to please one or two companies with no impact on Adobe's business? Come on Jon, among all people you should know how Adobe misslead everybody in the SVG community during the past few years. Giving people hope that Adobe can still be helpful is only helping killing SVG at this point. And I know this is not what you want. Marc --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Ferraiolo jferrai@ wrote: Margie, Thanks for the kind words. In terms of possible next steps, I suggest finding a way to express your point of view (professionally, of course) within a blog or a forum that Adobe would read. (I don't know the degree to which Adobe monitors this forum and I am not sure what other industry forums they read these days.) An important thing would be to give detailed information about the business impact that you face. Adobe is likely to be more receptive if a company speaks up and talks about any specific difficulties that they will face and what Adobe could do about relieving those difficulties. Adobe is less likely to listen to people who simply get up on their soapbox. (I already did that.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo jferrai@ Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 Marjorie Roswell mroswell@ To om svg- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: cc svg- [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue 09/07/2006 05:03 Adobe SVG Viewer AM Please respond to svg- [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Jon, That was beautifully written. Thank you for your work and advocacy in the SVG community. What's the next step for our community to take, regarding items 3, 4, and 5? Margie On 9/6/06, jon_ferraiolo jferrai@ wrote: Hi Pat, Now that I am a member of the community and no longer an employee of Adobe, here is my reaction: (1) First off, I believe that Adobe deserves a great amount of appreciation for their contributions to SVG and the open standards world for their activities in previous years. Adobe provided a high-quality free implementation of an SVG viewer at large expense. (Pat, you know this perhaps better than anyone.) Adobe also has provided (and presumably will continue to provide) excellent support for SVG in some of its products, particularly Illustrator. Adobe has also made large contributions within the standards community on SVG. (2) It is understandable that at some point Adobe would announce the end-of-life for Adobe SVG Viewer. Since the Macromedia acquisition (at least, perhaps even earlier), it is clear that Adobe doesn't consider the SVG viewer to be strategic. Also, browsers are adding SVG support natively. (3) HOWEVER, I believe that some of the details regarding this end-of-life announcement are unacceptable to the community and not in Adobe's own best interests. To me, it is OK to stop support (presumably developer support and security fixes) on Adobe SVG
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Jon, That was beautifully written. Thank you for your work and advocacy in the SVG community. What's the next step for our community to take, regarding items 3, 4, and 5? Margie On 9/6/06, jon_ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pat, Now that I am a member of the community and no longer an employee of Adobe, here is my reaction: (1) First off, I believe that Adobe deserves a great amount of appreciation for their contributions to SVG and the open standards world for their activities in previous years. Adobe provided a high-quality free implementation of an SVG viewer at large expense. (Pat, you know this perhaps better than anyone.) Adobe also has provided (and presumably will continue to provide) excellent support for SVG in some of its products, particularly Illustrator. Adobe has also made large contributions within the standards community on SVG. (2) It is understandable that at some point Adobe would announce the end-of-life for Adobe SVG Viewer. Since the Macromedia acquisition (at least, perhaps even earlier), it is clear that Adobe doesn't consider the SVG viewer to be strategic. Also, browsers are adding SVG support natively. (3) HOWEVER, I believe that some of the details regarding this end-of-life announcement are unacceptable to the community and not in Adobe's own best interests. To me, it is OK to stop support (presumably developer support and security fixes) on Adobe SVG Viewer in the relative near-term, but instead of giving four months of advanced notice (i.e., 1/1/07), it should be something measured in years, something in the range of 2-4 years. (Note: 5 years is the usual amount for developer-oriented software.) (4) It reflects badly on Adobe that it did not donate the ASV source code (at least the higher-level logic that sits above the graphics rendering engine) to open soure. If Adobe isn't going to use ASV, then it should give it to the community so they can use it. Given how Adobe promoted industry adoption of ASV in the early days and thereby convinced many developers to build mission-critical applications using SVG, it is the least that Adobe could do. (5) But the worst part of this announcement is the removal of ASV downloads as of 1/1/08, with no option for others to host a different ASV download site. As others have pointed out, this will be devastating to those poor souls who made a commitment to ASV in the past and need their deployed SVG applications to continue working in IE, which today has something like 80% market share and is unlikely to support SVG natively before a couple of years go by. This particular decision reflects badly on Adobe as a business partner with developers. If nothing else, I appeal to Adobe to rethink this part of their decision. How much does it cost a company to maintain a single web page that is already working? If ASV quits working in some situations, such as ASV not running under Vista, then just add text to the download page alerting people that ASV has been EOL'd and is known not to work with Vista. (But the better approach would be to open source ASV so that the community can fix any such bugs.) Jon Ferraiolo IBM Adobe has decided to discontinue support for Adobe SVG Viewer. There are a number of other third-party SVG viewer implementations in the marketplace, including native support for SVG in many Web browsers. The SVG language and its adoption in the marketplace have both matured to the point where it is no longer necessary for Adobe to provide an SVG viewer. SVG is an established vector image format. Adobe currently supports SVG in several of its authoring and server products, including Illustrator, InDesign, GoLive, Version Cue, Graphics Server, FrameMaker, and FrameMaker Server. Adobe customer support for Adobe SVG Viewer will be discontinued on January 1, 2007. For more information on this decision and answers to questions about the discontinuation of Adobe SVG Viewer, please see http://www.adobe.com/svg Messages in this topic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/56704;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGwwcGptBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyOTg0MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAxMDMwMzg5BG1zZ0lkAzU2NzIzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE1NzU4OTQ0MgR0cGNJZAM1NjcwNA--( 12) Reply (via web post) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXB1ZjZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyOTg0MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAxMDMwMzg5BG1zZ0lkAzU2NzIzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE1NzU4OTQ0Mg--?act=replymessageNum=56723| Start a new topic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaGJqa3IwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyOTg0MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAxMDMwMzg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE1NzU4OTQ0Mg-- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design.
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Margie, Thanks for the kind words. In terms of possible next steps, I suggest finding a way to express your point of view (professionally, of course) within a blog or a forum that Adobe would read. (I don't know the degree to which Adobe monitors this forum and I am not sure what other industry forums they read these days.) An important thing would be to give detailed information about the business impact that you face. Adobe is likely to be more receptive if a company speaks up and talks about any specific difficulties that they will face and what Adobe could do about relieving those difficulties. Adobe is less likely to listen to people who simply get up on their soapbox. (I already did that.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 Marjorie Roswell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To om svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue 09/07/2006 05:03 Adobe SVG Viewer AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Jon, That was beautifully written. Thank you for your work and advocacy in the SVG community. What's the next step for our community to take, regarding items 3, 4, and 5? Margie On 9/6/06, jon_ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pat, Now that I am a member of the community and no longer an employee of Adobe, here is my reaction: (1) First off, I believe that Adobe deserves a great amount of appreciation for their contributions to SVG and the open standards world for their activities in previous years. Adobe provided a high-quality free implementation of an SVG viewer at large expense. (Pat, you know this perhaps better than anyone.) Adobe also has provided (and presumably will continue to provide) excellent support for SVG in some of its products, particularly Illustrator. Adobe has also made large contributions within the standards community on SVG. (2) It is understandable that at some point Adobe would announce the end-of-life for Adobe SVG Viewer. Since the Macromedia acquisition (at least, perhaps even earlier), it is clear that Adobe doesn't consider the SVG viewer to be strategic. Also, browsers are adding SVG support natively. (3) HOWEVER, I believe that some of the details regarding this end-of-life announcement are unacceptable to the community and not in Adobe's own best interests. To me, it is OK to stop support (presumably developer support and security fixes) on Adobe SVG Viewer in the relative near-term, but instead of giving four months of advanced notice (i.e., 1/1/07), it should be something measured in years, something in the range of 2-4 years. (Note: 5 years is the usual amount for developer-oriented software.) (4) It reflects badly on Adobe that it did not donate the ASV source code (at least the higher-level logic that sits above the graphics rendering engine) to open soure. If Adobe isn't going to use ASV, then it should give it to the community so they can use it. Given how Adobe promoted industry adoption of ASV in the early days and thereby convinced many developers to build mission-critical applications using SVG, it is the least that Adobe could do. (5) But the worst part of this announcement is the removal of ASV downloads as of 1/1/08, with no option for others to host a different ASV download site. As others have pointed out, this will be devastating to those poor souls who made a commitment to ASV in the past and need their deployed SVG applications to continue working in IE, which today has something like 80% market share and is unlikely to support SVG natively before a couple of years go by. This particular decision reflects badly on Adobe as a business partner with developers. If nothing
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi, Jeff- As usual, I think you hit the nail on the head. I have been taking stock on exactly the options you have gone over. Mozilla is open source and of high quality. Renesis has made good progress and is planning some very interesting things for their October release. Amanith is just lovely, but they have no DOM or scripting. All of these have one thing in common: we need to figure out how to package any or all of these as a plug-in/Add On for IE. We would need information on: * The basic packaging of how this would work, including managing how the target content (SVG) is recognized and rendered. I have looked around, but could not find a clear set of instructions... I'm sure it's out there, though. Possibly we can even find even a stub that will serve as a template. * How to manage SVG-HTML communication, possibly between different scripting engines. * How to inline SVG insofar as IE is capable of this (optional). * How to do all this in a way that will work even if MS IE changes their architecture because of the Eolas lawsuit. I welcome any clues about any of the above. The Corel and Mobiform viewers all had at least some of the above, and though at least Corel is dead, maybe we can find someone from those fronts with the proper knowledge. Regards- -Doug Jeff Schiller wrote: We can't rely on Microsoft, just like we shouldn't have been comfortable relying on Adobe, to do the right thing and implement native support for SVG for free. There are business considerations that will always take priority. Even if they do it, I fear compatibility issues - their browser engine is still the worst of the major browsers out there. So where are the open source, cross-platform SVG 1.1 viewers ? What about taking the Mozilla base and developing a browser plugin from that for only SVG support? What about candidates like AmanithVG and Renesis for a SVG 1.2 viewer? Let's get a list of all the candidate open-source projects and contribute so that they flourish before Jan 2008. And I agree with Jon - praise to Adobe for past support, but I cry foul to MacroAdobe for this distinctly hostile gesture towards this development community. They know there is no suitable replacement for IE as of today. Jeff - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
On 9/7/06 1:19 PM, Jeff Schiller wrote: So where are the open source, cross-platform SVG 1.1 viewers ? What about taking the Mozilla base and developing a browser plugin from that for only SVG support? What about candidates like AmanithVG and Renesis for a SVG 1.2 viewer? Let's get a list of all the candidate open-source projects and contribute so that they flourish before Jan 2008. The SVG code in mozilla is tied closely with the rest of the layout engine, so you need to take pretty much the whole Gecko engine if you wanted to do something like this. There is already code in the mozilla tree that turns it into an ActiveX Control which could serve as a starting point. http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Hi, Jon- jon_ferraiolo wrote: Hi Marc, I think you misunderstood me. I was replying to Margie about how best to encourage Adobe to change their policy. I agree that Adobe isn't likely to rethink their commitment to Flash/Flex, but they might rethink some other things, such as making ASV available for downloads after 1/1/08, supporting ASV beyond 1/1/07, and/or donating the source code to open source. Jon, you are an optimist... and I mean that in a good way. I admire your propensity for finding solutions rather than dwelling on the problem. I think the ideal case would be for Adobe to release the source for the non-proprietary parts of the plug-in (I have no hope that they would release the graphics engine). This would give us a boost in creating a replacement, and would relieve them of their moral responsibility. Failing that, I like your suggestion of lengthening their terms by a reasonable time... say, a year each. Regards- -Doug - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
On 9/7/06, Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Jon- jon_ferraiolo wrote: Hi Marc, I think you misunderstood me. I was replying to Margie about how best to encourage Adobe to change their policy. I agree that Adobe isn't likely to rethink their commitment to Flash/Flex, but they might rethink some other things, such as making ASV available for downloads after 1/1/08, supporting ASV beyond 1/1/07, and/or donating the source code to open source. Jon, you are an optimist... and I mean that in a good way. I admire your propensity for finding solutions rather than dwelling on the problem. I think the ideal case would be for Adobe to release the source for the non-proprietary parts of the plug-in (I have no hope that they would release the graphics engine). This would give us a boost in creating a replacement, and would relieve them of their moral responsibility. Failing that, I like your suggestion of lengthening their terms by a reasonable time... say, a year each. Regards- -Doug Hi All. As you know I have an SVG Rendering it is in either Java or C++; it is implemented in my ZipProtocol But this not the point I like to make. - Not counting mine there are at least two other open source graphic engine the Cato's whic is using by FF and the Batik's. (so really you don't need Adobe's). - The text rendering one can use Freestyle's engine. (I have using that and able to have the text to be 'transformed' the way it requested to do). - Assuming that there is an SVG graphic engine (I may consider donate the specialy disigned for SVG) . My question are:.- even that ADOBE releases the Graphical engine source code. Who is hing to be the head of the effort? who own that effort? Where it find the fund at least to pay for those who work full time? or IF someone agrees to put up the development money (as an investment) then what is the plan for us to pay back?. I think this is the time for us to think of an Solution to have SVG work on IE.ADOBE-LESS. btw: there are always a work around. Using combination of javascript+applet or javascript + custom protocol. Cheers. -- Phi - Tran Hugely increase your speed, saving your band-width with ZipProtocol plus crystal clear SVG Rendering image at HTTP://oneplusplus.com Note: Iam waiting for the outcome of IE7 for I can release the Zipprotocol. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
