RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it "quasi-3D", which is why I asked for a definition (since the default definition would be "almost but not quite" 3D). One could argue that true 3D is not possible on a 2D monitor. While I'm on the topic, I'll assert that Atari's arcade version of "Night Driver" was the first ever "quasi-3D" videogame (released in October 1976). It was the first to approximate a 3D perspective. Sorry, just being difficult :-) Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery > House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D. > Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached). I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a 3D perspective. To contrast, the "Quest" games let you move something "in front of" or "behind" another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D than Mystery House. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games? Anyone who likes > them, please shed some light on the subject. Ok, I guess I have to throw my hat into this ring... As a huge fan of both the old text/still graphic adventures AND the Sierra/Lucasart style games, they both have their own appeal. But the Sierra games did change some key aspects of the old text games and for the better. Now your main gripe seems to be with the fact that you can't just be in a room and say I want to do X. This was at first mainly a technical problem of doing pathfinding routines (notice that later Sierra and Lucasarts games all take care of this for you automatically through mouse controls. KQ1 was meant to be played with a joystick or keyboard, so you didn't have a mouse to point at stuff and intereact with it through icons (granted the Amiga and I believe Mac versions both had mouse support but they were just ports made at a later time. When Maniac Mansion is released these problems are dealt with). Also, the old descriptions in text adventures were replaced by graphics. This changed the nature of the puzzle solving from the old "ok, what items are listed in the descrption and let's play with those" to "what items are drawn with any kind of detail and let's play with those". Part of the appeal, especially in those early games was to try to find the items of interest, like watching an old detective movie and spotting which character was missing from the scene, because he was off murdering someone. Text adventures just had to tell you what happened and give it away or not tell you making it unfair. The visual nature of the games (which many people including Ken Williams admit were one of the big reasons people bought Adventure games, aka show off your hardware) was a major issue on its own and was therefore very important. The whole idea that you could move a sprite behind stuff was pretty far out back then for a home computer and made the game more accessible to younger audiences that were quickly bored by pages and pages of text. I can't recall how many times I was ticked off at text adventures that would show stuff in the images (especially on later games for 16 bit machines, which had much more detailed pictures) and since they weren't mentioned in the descriptions I couldn't interact with them. Despite the fact that this post is coming out a bit disjointed, another great addition of the Sierra style game was that you could finally have something besides straight choose your own adventure style gameplay. Action sequences were added to the games (Conquest of Camelot being probably the best example of this), which began to bridge gaps between genres and giving much more realistic feeling experiences, especially since you could now actually see scenes played out that would otherwise just be described. I guess a good comparison would be between the text adventure The Hobbit and Sierra's The Black Cauldron (which yes, was a point and click affair, but still). I use both of these because they were both cartoons and books I grew up on and so they spanned all three of my favorite mediums. There are moments in The Hobbit that just don't come to life, not only because of the relatively limited parser (not the greatest game engine in the text adventure arena), but because you just lack the animation. At the end of the Black Cauldron when the little furry guy runs right into the pot, that's a moment that will stick with me forever... much more so then a paragraph describing it. Karl Kuras aka Trantor http://drawnsword.trantornator.com Yeah, go visit my webcomic! -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
OK, let's see here: First of all, there was the novelty. At first it was pretty cool to be able to see your character on the screen. Second, the animations. Even in their first game, KQ1, Sierra animated stuff like swimming. In later games, when you try to perform an action, you can actually see yourself doing it. Contrast this with seeing a picture of a snake in front of you and typing "kill snake with rock" and then the game responds with "The snake is dead", and it just disappears from the screen. >From a puzzle perspective this is fine, but from an entertainment perspective, I like being able to see what the character is doing. Third, the action sequences. OK, I didn't actually like this, but the addition of the 3D movement allowed Sierra to put in such "challenging" tasks as making sure you didn't fall off the bridge into the moat, or running away from the dwarf. Ultimately, you are right that "A decent story and flexible parser with multiple outcomes is what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the screen." Luckily, games with sprites moving around the screen can also have good stories and flexible means of entering commands. I'd like to respond to some of your other criticism about "getting closer" and stuff like that. Imagine this scenario: >LOOK You see a grove of 10 trees. >EXAMINE TREE Which tree do you mean, the 1st tree, the 2nd tree, the 3rd tree, the 4th treeetc. In a Quest game, you just walk to the tree you are interested in and poke around. OK, maybe not such a great example. But when I played Kings Quest 2 for the 1st time (the 1st Kings Quest I played), I was always typing "LOOK DOWN". This actually gave logical responses based upon where on the screen you were standing. So it might say "You see nothing of note" or "You see a hollow stump". I found that cool also. In general, I think they did a fairly good job with the system. I will admit though, that it's more fun to click on a spot on the screen with the mouse and have the character move there automatically (and start to interact with something), than to first have to move the character with the arrow keys and then type something in. Sierra eventually realized that too. So maybe its original AGI system was ahead of its time, waiting for mice to become popular. Stuart -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 Chris Newman wrote: > > The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective > but I think it's worth asking: > Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for > the IBM line? There If you are defining "quasi-3D adventure game" as the stereotypical "Sierra" game -- meaning, a visible protagonist who moves around the screen, and a limited text parser -- then yes, because it was the first game from Sierra using that system. In normal oldwarez or abandonware circles, my next comment would anger a lot of people, but in this crowd I think I'm amongst peers when I say: Sierra's adventure system simply didn't make any sense whatsoever. In a normal piece of interactive fiction, you type things like "use key to unlock door. open door, then enter." and a lot of niggly stuff was taken care of, like walking over to the door, using the key, opening the door, and walking through it. But in Sierra's "Quest" games, you have to physically maneuver an on-screen avatar over to the door, type "use key to unlock door" anyway, and then maneuver him through the door. I mean, why so complicated? What is the point of making the game much harder to play? Was it an attempt at compensating for the incredibly weak text parser? If you were nowhere near the door on the same screen but typed "use key to unlock door", the game would actually respond "You're not close enough." Excuse me? Why are my actions limited by distance? Hello? My theory is that these types of games survived because they were a novelty. Something pretty was onscreen, and sprites moved behind other sprites giving the illusion of depth, and on certain platforms you had decent music. But overall *any* piece of interactive fiction with graphics is better -- you get to see the graphics, but you don't have to do stupid crap just to "immerse" you in the game. A decent story and flexible parser with multiple outcomes is what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the screen. Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games? Anyone who likes them, please shed some light on the subject. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcolle
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote: > > I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest... Whoops -- my bad. :) It was the first commercially successful one, but I agree it seems foolish to call it the *first* interactive fiction with graphics. But until another is found, it wins. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] You can still get a great score on eBay...
"C.E. Forman" wrote: > > Actually, just trying to make myself feel a bit better... It's been a rough > week. B-) yeah, well, uh... that Zany Golf box is pretty beat up! So there, nyah nyah! Geezus, I feel depressed now... that was amazing. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery > House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D. > Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached). I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a 3D perspective. To contrast, the "Quest" games let you move something "in front of" or "behind" another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D than Mystery House. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest...
-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote:
>
> Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
> would be difficult to prove this...
Hardly -- I remember playing Mask of the Sun in 1983, a full year before
King's Quest. The very first interactive fiction game with graphics would
be
pretty hard to lock down -- I guess you can argue it was Mystery House, but
the parser in Mystery House is so pathetic that it barely qualifies as
interactive fiction :-)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project?
http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at
http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
--
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in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment
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purchased, or sold in any client accounts (i) will not be insured by the FDIC,
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, (iii) will not be endorsed or
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Chris Newman wrote: > > The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective > but I think it's worth asking: > Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for > the IBM line? There If you are defining "quasi-3D adventure game" as the stereotypical "Sierra" game -- meaning, a visible protagonist who moves around the screen, and a limited text parser -- then yes, because it was the first game from Sierra using that system. In normal oldwarez or abandonware circles, my next comment would anger a lot of people, but in this crowd I think I'm amongst peers when I say: Sierra's adventure system simply didn't make any sense whatsoever. In a normal piece of interactive fiction, you type things like "use key to unlock door. open door, then enter." and a lot of niggly stuff was taken care of, like walking over to the door, using the key, opening the door, and walking through it. But in Sierra's "Quest" games, you have to physically maneuver an on-screen avatar over to the door, type "use key to unlock door" anyway, and then maneuver him through the door. I mean, why so complicated? What is the point of making the game much harder to play? Was it an attempt at compensating for the incredibly weak text parser? If you were nowhere near the door on the same screen but typed "use key to unlock door", the game would actually respond "You're not close enough." Excuse me? Why are my actions limited by distance? Hello? My theory is that these types of games survived because they were a novelty. Something pretty was onscreen, and sprites moved behind other sprites giving the illusion of depth, and on certain platforms you had decent music. But overall *any* piece of interactive fiction with graphics is better -- you get to see the graphics, but you don't have to do stupid crap just to "immerse" you in the game. A decent story and flexible parser with multiple outcomes is what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the screen. Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games? Anyone who likes them, please shed some light on the subject. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote: > > Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it > would be difficult to prove this... Hardly -- I remember playing Mask of the Sun in 1983, a full year before King's Quest. The very first interactive fiction game with graphics would be pretty hard to lock down -- I guess you can argue it was Mystery House, but the parser in Mystery House is so pathetic that it barely qualifies as interactive fiction :-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
would be difficult to prove this...
Stuart
-Original Message-
From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
True -- I should have said "animated 3D adventure".
Was Mystery House the first graphical game? I know it's the first
runaway hit, but I wonder if there wasn't someone else with a baggie
operation, selling homemade games to stores.
Hugh Falk wrote:
>
> Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery
> House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
> Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
>
> Hugh
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
>
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There
> were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
> made its debut with Sierra's
> infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
> the time I found KQ1 so
> enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
> Sierra.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
>
>
> Name: Mysteryh[1].jpg
>Mysteryh[1].jpgType: JPEG Image (image/jpeg)
> Encoding: base64
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Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to
change without notice. It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for
accuracy or completeness. Details provided do not supersede your normal trade
confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to prior sale. CIBC World Markets
Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, may have a position
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment
banker or advisor to such. Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly
owned subsidiary of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), it is solely
responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products recommended,
purchased, or sold in any client accounts (i) will not be insured by the FDIC,
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, (iii) will not be endorsed or
guaranteed by CIBC, and (iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of
principal in!
vested.
--
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
True -- I should have said "animated 3D adventure". Was Mystery House the first graphical game? I know it's the first runaway hit, but I wonder if there wasn't someone else with a baggie operation, selling homemade games to stores. Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery > House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D. > Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached). > > Hugh > > -Original Message- > From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 > > The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective > but I think it's worth asking: > Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for > the IBM line? There > were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr > made its debut with Sierra's > infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At > the time I found KQ1 so > enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of > Sierra. > > Chris > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ > > > Name: Mysteryh[1].jpg >Mysteryh[1].jpgType: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
That's why I said it's objective. I take a real 3D adventure to mean a 360 view, such as with today's crop of first person shooters like Thief, Medal of Honor, Return to Wolf, etc. The technology wasn't there 20 years ago so the 3D was an approximation. In KQ1 Sir Graham cannot change his viewing perspective, and each scene is flat. Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > King's Quest 1 was the first adventure game where you could move the > character around on the screen, as far as I know. What is a "quasi-3D > adventure game"? How about "Asylum"? > > Stuart > > -Original Message- > From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 > > The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective > but I think it's worth asking: > Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for > the IBM line? There > were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr > made its debut with Sierra's > infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At > the time I found KQ1 so > enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of > Sierra. > > Chris > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
