Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
I can't recall any. Even very complicated games like Microsoft's FS9,
who really should come with adequate printed documentation, have most of
it on the CD only. And "Knight's of the Old Republic," being a CRPG, who
usually have and need bigger manuals, comes with nothing more than a
couple of pages that explain the basics.
The last game I bought that had good documentation was Arcanum (late 
2001).  150 page manual, with TONs of information (walkthough of first 
area, background on all the character classes, even a recipe for cookies 
:).  Was very pleased to see that.  Of course, that was also one of the 
very last large/original-size box formats.  Now everything is the 
smallbox format.  We must be the only group in the world who hates the 
small boxes :-)

But about the collector's editions you mentioned: Nice way of selling us
for extra money what once upon a time we got in the first place.
Yes, BUT, games usually cost about $59-$69 back then.  So although you 
got more, you were paying more.  Collector's Edition Return to Castle 
Wolfenstein cost $59, so instead of saying "once upon a time we got in 
the first place", we should be saying "all releases should be 
collector's editions" or "with collector's editions, you get what you 
pay for".  (Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, but one of the reasons I 
started collecting old games post-1997 is because it was actually 
*cheaper* for me to do so compared to back in 1987!)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Marco Thorek]

Pedro Quaresma schrieb:
> 
> Agreed wholeheartedly, but which companies care about that these days?
> How many games in the last few years have had a decent manual + props
> other than on a "special" or "collectors" edition?

I can't recall any. Even very complicated games like Microsoft's FS9,
who really should come with adequate printed documentation, have most of
it on the CD only. And "Knight's of the Old Republic," being a CRPG, who
usually have and need bigger manuals, comes with nothing more than a
couple of pages that explain the basics.

But about the collector's editions you mentioned: Nice way of selling us
for extra money what once upon a time we got in the first place.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Marco Thorek]

Edward Franks schrieb:

>  From the article it apparently did.  Enough that the dev team decided
> it was worth the effort then and in the future.

You caught me; I was too lazy to register to read the article, and was
just recalling what happened to the last copy protection that worked
that way - FADE. 

FADE apparently caused a good portion of FUD among users, but IIRC the
cracker community adapted to it pretty fast. 

> I pretty much agree with that.  People have gotten used to the idea
> that cheaper is always better -- zero cost being the cheapest --
> without understanding or giving a damn about the eventual long term
> consequences.  But, I'll save the economics rant for another day.  ;-)

Yeah, but it is not only the consumers who are to blame. It was the
retailers who conditioned them to take price as the top aspect.

Here in Germany large electronics chains use slogans like "being cheap
is hot."

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Pedro Quaresma]

Marco Thorek wrote:
>IMHO the best copy protection still is a neat box, a nice and sufficient
>manual and some props to go along. If all you get is a DVD case and a
>PDF manual on the CD, most people don't see enough physical evidence of
>the game's worth, compared to what is readily available on the net.

Agreed wholeheartedly, but which companies care about that these days? How many games in the last few years have had a decent manual + props other than on a "special" or "collectors" edition?


--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Edward Franks]

On Dec 5, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Marco Thorek wrote:
[Snip]
I doubt that it made much of a difference. A good enough coder can
quickly identify any subroutine depending on the protection.
	From the article it apparently did.  Enough that the dev team decided 
it was worth the effort then and in the future.

IMHO the best copy protection still is a neat box, a nice and 
sufficient
manual and some props to go along. If all you get is a DVD case and a
PDF manual on the CD, most people don't see enough physical evidence of
the game's worth, compared to what is readily available on the net.
	I pretty much agree with that.  People have gotten used to the idea 
that cheaper is always better -- zero cost being the cheapest -- 
without understanding or giving a damn about the eventual long term 
consequences.  But, I'll save the economics rant for another day.  ;-)

--

Edward Franks

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Marco Thorek]

Edward Franks schrieb:
> 
> Gamasutra had an interesting article
>  -- you may
> need to register on Gamasutra to read it -- on the developer's attempts
> to simply slowdown the cracking of Spyro: Year of the Dragon.  Their
> goal was simply to try to keep pirates from cracking the game for the
> first few months of the game's sale life (when up to half the sales of
> the game occur).  The idea that came across was that they realized that
> the crackers would eventually win, so all the developers could do is
> try to slow them down.  It included allowing partial cracks to work for
> a while, so that if you didn't play the game for 10 to 12 hours you
> might think your crack worked.  It is a bizarre world when developers
> spend so much time trying to make a game work correctly and then turn
> around and break their own game.

I doubt that it made much of a difference. A good enough coder can
quickly identify any subroutine depending on the protection.

IMHO the best copy protection still is a neat box, a nice and sufficient
manual and some props to go along. If all you get is a DVD case and a
PDF manual on the CD, most people don't see enough physical evidence of
the game's worth, compared to what is readily available on the net.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Lee K. Seitz wrote:

I also seem to recall 4-Play's web page up with a countdown to when
the brute force method would be done.  And when the time was up, they
still hadn't made an announcement.
They hadn't updated the page -- several homebrew Jaguar games do indeed exist 
(check Songbird Productions for a few)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Lee K. Seitz]

Jim Leonard stated:
>
>It certainly worked for the Atari Jaguar.  Emulators and homebrew games were 
>impossible until somebody cleverly broke the encryption using jaglink'd 
>development systems running a brute-force technique.  It took almost 9 months, 
>if memory serves.  (Ironically, the Jaguar rights were released to the public 
>shortly thereafter :)

Perhaps my memory is faulty, but the way I remember it, Hasbro
announced that the Jaguar was an open console (meaning anyone could
develop games for it), but didn't have (or didn't know where to find)
the encryption algorithm.  This made their statement practically
meaningless at the time.

I also seem to recall 4-Play's web page up with a countdown to when
the brute force method would be done.  And when the time was up, they
still hadn't made an announcement.

-- 
Lee K. Seitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:

Hmm.  I need to think through this.  I wonder if the NSA would 
freak  if there wasn't a backdoor.
I think the RIAA would freak if there *was* a back door ;-)

So-called "back doors" are more trouble than their worth.  It means that 
anyone to figures it out can get into anything.  There are far less "back 
doors" in security hardware/software than you think.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Dan Chisarick wrote:

Anyway, I remember reading about how hard the emulator guys were  
working on emulating brutal encryption on certain standup arcade  
titles.  That seemed effective.  My guess is, if a console had 100%  
encrypted content on their distribution media, and all decryption was  
done on-chip (no decrypted data ever went over the pins on the chips),  
that would be pretty effective :)  
It certainly worked for the Atari Jaguar.  Emulators and homebrew games were 
impossible until somebody cleverly broke the encryption using jaglink'd 
development systems running a brute-force technique.  It took almost 9 months, 
if memory serves.  (Ironically, the Jaguar rights were released to the public 
shortly thereafter :)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Edward Franks]

On Dec 3, 2003, at 7:07 PM, Dan Chisarick wrote:
[Snip]
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/ 
0724palladiumwp.asp

Anyway, I remember reading about how hard the emulator guys were  
working on emulating brutal encryption on certain standup arcade  
titles.  That seemed effective.  My guess is, if a console had 100%  
encrypted content on their distribution media, and all decryption was  
done on-chip (no decrypted data ever went over the pins on the chips),  
that would be pretty effective :)  I'm waiting for some form of online  
activation system for consoles myself (for non-networked games).

The problem is, trying to match wits with someone with detailed  
knowledge of a system and trying to keep you out is fun.  Sometimes  
more fun than the game they're protecting.
	Hmm.  I need to think through this.  I wonder if the NSA would freak  
if there wasn't a backdoor.

--

Edward Franks

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Dan Chisarick]

Good article.  They really had focused on an achievable goal and did a  
good job, too.

The shift to consoles away from computers for first-run big titles  
pretty much tells the story with regard to protecting games from piracy  
(and for support reasons too).  If that 'secure computing environment'  
initiative ever catches on in PC's, it may change things back to the  
PC's favor.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/ 
0724palladiumwp.asp

Anyway, I remember reading about how hard the emulator guys were  
working on emulating brutal encryption on certain standup arcade  
titles.  That seemed effective.  My guess is, if a console had 100%  
encrypted content on their distribution media, and all decryption was  
done on-chip (no decrypted data ever went over the pins on the chips),  
that would be pretty effective :)  I'm waiting for some form of online  
activation system for consoles myself (for non-networked games).

The problem is, trying to match wits with someone with detailed  
knowledge of a system and trying to keep you out is fun.  Sometimes  
more fun than the game they're protecting.

On Dec 2, 2003, at 10:42 PM, Edward Franks wrote:

On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:30 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
I have only run across three games in my life that were HARD to crack:

- King's Quest 2, PC, booter (NOT the DOS re-release in 1987).  This  
was some extremely clever use of self-modifying code, encryption, and  
other fun.

- Dunzhin Warriors of RAS, PC, booter (used extremely unconventional  
means to access the disk drives)

- Turrican, Amiga (had several different protections that it checked  
at random -- you'd crack it, and three weeks later it would complain.  
 So you'd crack THAT protection, and three weeks later it would  
complain about something else.  Etc.
	How did the original Dungeon Master (Amiga) compare to these?  It is  
the game I see people using as the gold standard of 'tough nut to  
crack'.

If you want more information, let me know.  It's pretty fascinating  
sometimes.
	I picked up a number of the old Computist magazines for the Apple II  
just so I could have some sort of reference to breaking copy  
protections for my legal backups.  I'd hate to have to try to puzzle  
all that out now by myself.  At least DMCA is in accordance with  
Copyright Law for the old (obsolete hardware) games.

	Gamasutra had an interesting article  
 -- you may  
need to register on Gamasutra to read it -- on the developer's  
attempts to simply slowdown the cracking of Spyro: Year of the Dragon.  
 Their goal was simply to try to keep pirates from cracking the game  
for the first few months of the game's sale life (when up to half the  
sales of the game occur).  The idea that came across was that they  
realized that the crackers would eventually win, so all the developers  
could do is try to slow them down.  It included allowing partial  
cracks to work for a while, so that if you didn't play the game for 10  
to 12 hours you might think your crack worked.  It is a bizarre world  
when developers spend so much time trying to make a game work  
correctly and then turn around and break their own game.

--

Edward Franks

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:

How did the original Dungeon Master (Amiga) compare to these?  It is 
the game I see people using as the gold standard of 'tough nut to crack'.
It had a different protection scheme for each level of the game, and all 
schemes relied on undocumented opcode behavior and/or self-modifying code. 
Most pirates were unwilling to crack it, play to the next level, crack THAT, 
play to the next level, etc.  It was indeed one of the best, and because it 
was a *good* game it sold many many copies.

Gamasutra had an interesting article 
 -- you may need 
to register on Gamasutra to read it -- on the developer's attempts to 
simply slowdown the cracking of Spyro: Year of the Dragon.  Their goal 
was simply to try to keep pirates from cracking the game for the first 
few months of the game's sale life (when up to half the sales of the 
game occur).  The idea that came across was that they realized that the 
crackers would eventually win, so all the developers could do is try to 
slow them down.  It included allowing partial cracks to work for a 
while, so that if you didn't play the game for 10 to 12 hours you might 
think your crack worked.  It is a bizarre world when developers spend so 
much time trying to make a game work correctly and then turn around and 
break their own game.
Agreed.  I have read several times (including a few times in Halcyon Days) 
where a developer has lamented spending so much time on the copy-protection.

From the article:  "From the very beginning we recognized that nothing is 
uncrackable."  As a former pirate who cracked games, I couldn't agree more. 
Developers *must* realize this if they are to stop pirates for the first two 
months of a game's shelf life.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Edward Franks]

On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:30 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
I have only run across three games in my life that were HARD to crack:

- King's Quest 2, PC, booter (NOT the DOS re-release in 1987).  This 
was some extremely clever use of self-modifying code, encryption, and 
other fun.

- Dunzhin Warriors of RAS, PC, booter (used extremely unconventional 
means to access the disk drives)

- Turrican, Amiga (had several different protections that it checked 
at random -- you'd crack it, and three weeks later it would complain.  
So you'd crack THAT protection, and three weeks later it would 
complain about something else.  Etc.
	How did the original Dungeon Master (Amiga) compare to these?  It is 
the game I see people using as the gold standard of 'tough nut to 
crack'.

If you want more information, let me know.  It's pretty fascinating 
sometimes.
	I picked up a number of the old Computist magazines for the Apple II 
just so I could have some sort of reference to breaking copy 
protections for my legal backups.  I'd hate to have to try to puzzle 
all that out now by myself.  At least DMCA is in accordance with 
Copyright Law for the old (obsolete hardware) games.

	Gamasutra had an interesting article 
 -- you may 
need to register on Gamasutra to read it -- on the developer's attempts 
to simply slowdown the cracking of Spyro: Year of the Dragon.  Their 
goal was simply to try to keep pirates from cracking the game for the 
first few months of the game's sale life (when up to half the sales of 
the game occur).  The idea that came across was that they realized that 
the crackers would eventually win, so all the developers could do is 
try to slow them down.  It included allowing partial cracks to work for 
a while, so that if you didn't play the game for 10 to 12 hours you 
might think your crack worked.  It is a bizarre world when developers 
spend so much time trying to make a game work correctly and then turn 
around and break their own game.

--

Edward Franks

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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:

Don't worry...some good can come out of this...

So how do you repair the broken disks? I'd sure like to know.
Seriously?  Well, most "broken" disks are merely copy-protected.  If you 
have special software or hardware, it is fairly trivial to analyze the 
disks to get a feel for how they are laid out, load the software up in a 
debugger, watch for suspicious activity, and patch the game so that it 
doesn't check for the odd layout present on the original disk.

I have only run across three games in my life that were HARD to crack:

- King's Quest 2, PC, booter (NOT the DOS re-release in 1987).  This was 
some extremely clever use of self-modifying code, encryption, and other fun.

- Dunzhin Warriors of RAS, PC, booter (used extremely unconventional 
means to access the disk drives)

- Turrican, Amiga (had several different protections that it checked at 
random -- you'd crack it, and three weeks later it would complain.  So 
you'd crack THAT protection, and three weeks later it would complain 
about something else.  Etc.

If you want more information, let me know.  It's pretty fascinating 
sometimes.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 2:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]
CRAP!!!  This is the very first time in my life I have sent a message to 
the wrong address!!  I am a moron!

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:


Piracy? Here? On this bastion of software morality?

Why my fragile mind can not cope with it! AAAR!!!

Hey, that reminds me, does anyone have a working copy of "The Quest" for
IBM?
Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 1:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]
Sarinee?  Which ones should I send to you and to which address?





--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/


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RE: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

Don't worry...some good can come out of this...

So how do you repair the broken disks? I'd sure like to know.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 2:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]


CRAP!!!  This is the very first time in my life I have sent a message to 
the wrong address!!  I am a moron!

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:

> Piracy? Here? On this bastion of software morality?
> 
> Why my fragile mind can not cope with it! AAAR!!!
> 
> Hey, that reminds me, does anyone have a working copy of "The Quest" for
> IBM?
> 
> Stuart
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 1:54 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]
> 
> 
> Sarinee?  Which ones should I send to you and to which address?


-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/



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Re: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

CRAP!!!  This is the very first time in my life I have sent a message to 
the wrong address!!  I am a moron!

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:

Piracy? Here? On this bastion of software morality?

Why my fragile mind can not cope with it! AAAR!!!

Hey, that reminds me, does anyone have a working copy of "The Quest" for
IBM?
Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 1:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]
Sarinee?  Which ones should I send to you and to which address?


--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/


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RE: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

Piracy? Here? On this bastion of software morality?

Why my fragile mind can not cope with it! AAAR!!!

Hey, that reminds me, does anyone have a working copy of "The Quest" for
IBM?

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 1:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]


Sarinee?  Which ones should I send to you and to which address?
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/



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[SWCollect] [Fwd: Re: 5.25" disks?]

[Jim Leonard]

Sarinee?  Which ones should I send to you and to which address?
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--- Begin Message ---
Ah, I remember now, none of them were mine.Sarinee sent me some disks,
and when I couldn't get them to work on my old drive, he suggested I send
them to you for repair.   So they're Sarinee's.

The ones of Sarinee's I remember sending were the Interbank Incident and
something with Ulysseys in the title (maybe you've sent that one back
already).   Anyway, they should go to wherever Sarinee is currently. ;)

Josh

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Joshua Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: 5.25" disks?


> Joshua Lawrence wrote:
>
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Glad you guys got them cracked!   Please send them to:
> >
> > Josh Lawrence
> > 1595 47th Ave
> > San Francisco CA  94122
>
> Will do.  Unfortunately, I have a pile and I can't remember which are
yours!
> Here's what I have:
>
> Superstar Soccer
> Austerlitz (2 disks)
> Winnie the Pooh in the 100 Acre Wood (CoCo)
> Donald Duck's Playground (CoCo)
> The Interbank Incident (CoCo)
>
> Which ones are yours again?
>
> > Thanks!
> > Josh
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Jim Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 4:21 PM
> > Subject: 5.25" disks?
> >
> >
> >
> >>I still have the disks you sent me to be repaired and uploaded to
> >
> > underdogs -- 
> >
> >>to what address can I send them back?  (We were successful in
downloading
> >
> > and
> >
> >>cracking the programs -- thanks!)
> >>-- 
> >>Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> >
> > http://www.oldskool.org/
> >
> >>Want to help an ambitious games project?
> >
> > http://www.mobygames.com/
> >
> >>Or check out some trippy MindCandy at
> >
> > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
> >
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.oldskool.org/
> Want to help an ambitious games project?
http://www.mobygames.com/
> Or check out some trippy MindCandy at
http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
>
--- End Message ---