Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
Liz wrote: On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Ulf Lamping wrote: d) I don't think it's a good idea to change a tag description two years after it was documented, because the wording is slightly wrong for some parts of the english speaking world. Because doing so is an annoyance for anyone involved and the wording will always be slightly wrong for someone. Not to mention that a lot of people won't notice/ignore any changes here, as these definitions are old enough in OSM terms. My approach: Stick to the wiki definitions even if you don't like it and go on mapping :-) We need to be able to say a mistake has been made, these tags need revision and do something about mistakes. If we don't have a process for dealing with errors in tag choice and translation we will have a massive pile of junk data (and then no-one will care about the licence at all). +1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Ulf Lamping wrote: But till today, no one came up with a good idea for such a process, willing to spend the effort to implement it and - this is probably the critical point - could convince a wide majority of mappers that following his idea/process is a good thing. and some sort of discussion on how we acknowledge error and can move forward is needed currently the general scheme would be to design a new set of tagging which does not reuse the same tags and deprecate the tags which are decided to be in error so that over time the happy editors can retag features with new ones from better set ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/19 Liz ed...@billiau.net currently the general scheme would be to design a new set of tagging which does not reuse the same tags and deprecate the tags which are decided to be in error so that over time the happy editors can retag features with new ones from better set +1 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm not saying this is a good thing, but: a) It doesn't really matter for most mappers. b) It doesn't really matter for almost anyone else ;-) Why not? We have a situation where two tags are being used pretty indisciminately because people haven't understood their flawed definitions. Sure, it's only two tags, but their uses are in the thousands. c) The definitions of these tags were done in ~december 2007 probably by germans and the native english speakers didn't even care to correct these definitions till now. Since december 2007 it doesn't seemed to matter for most people how the actual wording is. Because no one noticed. Because it's hard to notice. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to fix: raising the visibility of tags and their usage, so we can spot these problems earlier. And we haven't even got to power=cable, which you objected to me making visible on the map features page... d) I don't think it's a good idea to change a tag description two years after it was documented, because the wording is slightly wrong for some parts of the english speaking world. The wording is *completely* wrong for the *entire* english speaking world. Definition of power=generator: power station Definition of power=station: substation Definition of power=sub_station: transformer I don't think you can get much wronger than that. And it doesn't appear to be a US english vs other english problem. Although power station (to mean power=generator) is more common outside the US, I don't think they use the term there to mean power=sub_station (as implied). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Because doing so is an annoyance for anyone involved and the wording will *always* be slightly wrong for someone. I understand what you're saying, and you're right in many instances. But there's a big difference between this siutuation, and say, service=alley (we say laneway here, but we can live with alley), or rcn (we don't have a regional cycling network, but we can understand what it means and use it appropriately). This situation is wrong for everyone (possible exception of Germans - but even then, a German term would be vastly preferable to an exactly incorrect English term), and not slightly wrong at all. It's so bad that when you see power=sub_station you actually have no idea what the tagger meant. Did they mean a substation or a sub_station? Did the mapper who used power=station mean a power station or a power=generator? Not to mention that a lot of people won't notice/ignore any changes here, as these definitions are old enough in OSM terms. Which people are you talking about? Newcomers? Old timers? My approach: Stick to the wiki definitions even if you don't like it and go on mapping :-) That response isn't even logical. It's as though I complained to the council that people keep ignoring the parking signs, and your answer is My approach: Keep obeying the parking signs. By all means, don't help find a solution (there are plenty of bigger fish to fry, after all), but advising other people to ignore the problem is...unhelpful. e) Unless someone develops a nice open power distribution map, this discussion is pretty much pointless and will continue or flare up again endlessly, regardless of what we'll end up with it now. So if you are really interested in fixing this power wording problem, go and develop such a map. This will motivate the mappers much more to do it right than to conform to whatever rules set/changed in the wiki. Renderers already render power=* tags. True, they probably don't distinguish much between the different kinds yet, but it's very plausible. Anyway, let's talk solutions. The obvious problem is that although the status quo is bad, changing is difficult. If we spontaneously redefine power=station, we will a) change the meaning of existing tags, and b) cause confusion amongst people who know the current tags. But at least we eventually end up at a situation which makes sense and won't cause so much mistagging. This will motivate the mappers much more to do it right than to conform to whatever rules set/changed in the wiki. So, you essentially say it's easier to keep drilling these bad definitions into people's heads, now and forever, than to fix them. Are you saying also that we should never change the definitions of any tags? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
I think it would be useful to see just how big the confusion is, how many mappers are involved, etc. I hope to be able to give a reasonable summary of those tomorrow. A cursory inspection of power=station in southern California shows it having been applied numerous times to both power plants and substations imported from gnis. At 2010-01-19 04:27, Steve Bennett wrote: On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm not saying this is a good thing, but: a) It doesn't really matter for most mappers. b) It doesn't really matter for almost anyone else ;-) Why not? We have a situation where two tags are being used pretty indisciminately because people haven't understood their flawed definitions. Sure, it's only two tags, but their uses are in the thousands. c) The definitions of these tags were done in ~december 2007 probably by germans and the native english speakers didn't even care to correct these definitions till now. Since december 2007 it doesn't seemed to matter for most people how the actual wording is. Because no one noticed. Because it's hard to notice. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to fix: raising the visibility of tags and their usage, so we can spot these problems earlier. And we haven't even got to power=cable, which you objected to me making visible on the map features page... d) I don't think it's a good idea to change a tag description two years after it was documented, because the wording is slightly wrong for some parts of the english speaking world. The wording is *completely* wrong for the *entire* english speaking world. Definition of power=generator: power station Definition of power=station: substation Definition of power=sub_station: transformer I don't think you can get much wronger than that. And it doesn't appear to be a US english vs other english problem. Although power station (to mean power=generator) is more common outside the US, I don't think they use the term there to mean power=sub_station (as implied). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Because doing so is an annoyance for anyone involved and the wording will *always* be slightly wrong for someone. I understand what you're saying, and you're right in many instances. But there's a big difference between this siutuation, and say, service=alley (we say laneway here, but we can live with alley), or rcn (we don't have a regional cycling network, but we can understand what it means and use it appropriately). This situation is wrong for everyone (possible exception of Germans - but even then, a German term would be vastly preferable to an exactly incorrect English term), and not slightly wrong at all. It's so bad that when you see power=sub_station you actually have no idea what the tagger meant. Did they mean a substation or a sub_station? Did the mapper who used power=station mean a power station or a power=generator? Not to mention that a lot of people won't notice/ignore any changes here, as these definitions are old enough in OSM terms. Which people are you talking about? Newcomers? Old timers? My approach: Stick to the wiki definitions even if you don't like it and go on mapping :-) That response isn't even logical. It's as though I complained to the council that people keep ignoring the parking signs, and your answer is My approach: Keep obeying the parking signs. By all means, don't help find a solution (there are plenty of bigger fish to fry, after all), but advising other people to ignore the problem is...unhelpful. e) Unless someone develops a nice open power distribution map, this discussion is pretty much pointless and will continue or flare up again endlessly, regardless of what we'll end up with it now. So if you are really interested in fixing this power wording problem, go and develop such a map. This will motivate the mappers much more to do it right than to conform to whatever rules set/changed in the wiki. Renderers already render power=* tags. True, they probably don't distinguish much between the different kinds yet, but it's very plausible. Anyway, let's talk solutions. The obvious problem is that although the status quo is bad, changing is difficult. If we spontaneously redefine power=station, we will a) change the meaning of existing tags, and b) cause confusion amongst people who know the current tags. But at least we eventually end up at a situation which makes sense and won't cause so much mistagging. This will motivate the mappers much more to do it right than to conform to whatever rules set/changed in the wiki. So, you essentially say it's easier to keep drilling these bad definitions into people's heads, now and forever, than to fix them. Are you saying also that we should never change the definitions of any tags? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging --
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
Steve Bennett wrote: On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: d) I don't think it's a good idea to change a tag description two years after it was documented, because the wording is slightly wrong for some parts of the english speaking world. The wording is *completely* wrong for the *entire* english speaking world. Definition of power=generator: power station Definition of power=station: substation Definition of power=sub_station: transformer I don't think you can get much wronger than that. And it doesn't appear to be a US english vs other english problem. Although power station (to mean power=generator) is more common outside the US, I don't think they use the term there to mean power=sub_station (as implied). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. foot=no would also literally mean that people would be allowed if they had no feet. Maybe the English speaking world should start joining the rest of the world which have to learn definitions of each tag anyway. So OSM may have awkward tags for English speaking persons, but if we really have to try to resolve all tags that would look strange in some language (e.g. amenity=cafe is not what we call a café in Dutch) then the only option would be to use index numbers (amenity=135...) (*). This is really a non-issue. Just learn the definition as it has been written on the wiki for years instead of blindly following your definition of a certain word, like the rest of the world. Now you're telling that the entire world has to learn new definitions because your definition of the word isn't the same as the defintion of the tag. Greetings, Ben (*) Oh, right, actually we do use index numbers, except that we use power=station instead of power=4569. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe the English speaking world should start joining the rest of the world which have to learn definitions of each tag anyway. So OSM may have awkward tags for English speaking persons, but if we really have to try to resolve all tags that would look strange in some language (e.g. amenity=cafe is not what we call a café in Dutch) then the only option would be to use index numbers (amenity=135...) (*). Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Emilie Laffray wrote: Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. I believe that was Ben's point, and this time it's the English-speaking part of the world that should adhere to that advice, for a change. -- Lennard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. The problem is that the definition on the wiki makes a distinction which is not made in the Netherlands. A 'café' is a place where drinks can be bought for local consumption. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food, sell beverages in a relaxed atmosphere and usually also food or sell beverages in a more party-like atmosphere not selling food. Well, I find this distinction very artificial, because many will fall in all three categories, depending on the time of day - a cafe by day, a pub in the early evening, a bar in the later evening. Should I tag them with all three? And if so, when seeing a cafe during the day, do I need to come back in the evening to listen how loud the music is? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 Lennard l...@xs4all.nl Emilie Laffray wrote: Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. I believe that was Ben's point, and this time it's the English-speaking part of the world that should adhere to that advice, for a change. Yup sorry for not seeing the point. But yes I agree with him. Sorry Ben Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:23 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), so the Dutch-cafe isn't actually claiming to be a cafe, it's claiming to be a special-Dutch-cafe not because the word cafe means something different in Dutch but because the word has been taken over for another use, and really deserves its own tag IMO. Thanks, that does explain some for me. I guess it means I should retag my cafes to pubs, because that's much more what they are like, and my amenity=restaurant; cuisine=lunch to cafe... -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On 19/01/2010 15:34, Emilie Laffray wrote: 2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com mailto:da...@frankieandshadow.com In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), I would be hard pressed to eat at a cafe in France. It usually doesn't serve any food, and they have an emphasis on serving alcohol. I guess they are not the same after all. Really? While some English cafes might serve meals, if you can call them that, like Egg and Chips, the French cafes I've been into would typically serve coffee and pastries. But put aside the distinction between soft drinks and alcohol, don't you think there is something different in character between a bar and a cafe in France, that causes the owner to *call* it one or the other (maybe even only for marketing reasons of atmosphere, cachet or desired clientèle than because of any fundamental difference in what it serves)? David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com Really? While some English cafes might serve meals, if you can call them that, like Egg and Chips, the French cafes I've been into would typically serve coffee and pastries. pastries yes but not a given. Food in general no. But put aside the distinction between soft drinks and alcohol, don't you think there is something different in character between a bar and a cafe in France, that causes the owner to *call* it one or the other (maybe even only for marketing reasons of atmosphere, cachet or desired clientèle than because of any fundamental difference in what it serves)? It could be. But it shows that it is difficult to find a proper definition for something like this. The meaning can be quite different. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), I would be hard pressed to eat at a cafe in France. It usually doesn't serve any food, and they have an emphasis on serving alcohol. I guess they are not the same after all. Hmmm... Then that's much closer to what I have called cafe after all. In fact, I have used emphasis on serving alcohol upto now as a sort of working definition for bar. Maybe if the meaning of those words is so different, I should not worry about it at all... -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
d) I don't think it's a good idea to change a tag description two years after it was documented, because the wording is slightly wrong for some parts of the english speaking world. Because doing so is an annoyance for anyone involved and the wording will always be slightly wrong for someone. Not to mention that a lot of people won't notice/ignore any changes here, as these definitions are old enough in OSM terms. My approach: Stick to the wiki definitions even if you don't like it and go on mapping :-) Regards, ULFL If you read my proposal again, you may notice that I didn't propose changing the existing descriptions. My preference for a power station is power=station. However, since that would require changing an existing definition, I proposed power=plant. If someone has another descriptor that is better than plant without stepping on existing toes, then I'm all for it. As far as the use of power=generator for a complete power plant, I'd prefer to limit that tag to, at most, the building that holds the generating equipment, not for the whole facility. I don't think that's bending the definition much, just restricting it a little more than the current use. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Also, at least in American usage, while a cafe will always sell beverages, it may or may not sell alcoholic beverages. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:06:30 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related toolstagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?) On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. The problem is that the definition on the wiki makes a distinction which is not made in the Netherlands. A 'café' is a place where drinks can be bought for local consumption. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food, sell beverages in a relaxed atmosphere and usually also food or sell beverages in a more party-like atmosphere not selling food. Well, I find this distinction very artificial, because many will fall in all three categories, depending on the time of day - a cafe by day, a pub in the early evening, a bar in the later evening. Should I tag them with all three? And if so, when seeing a cafe during the day, do I need to come back in the evening to listen how loud the music is? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On 19/01/2010 17:42, John F. Eldredge wrote: beverages interestingly, not a word you would often find used in British English. Generally drinks often means alcoholic beverages, though sometimes any depending on context, with soft drinks and hot drinks. pub I'd have thought this is a largely British/Irish phenomenon, yes? Most pubs elsewhere in the world are attempts at emulating or mocking British/Irish pubs, and nearly everywhere else has bars (and we do too, as well as pubs). The micro breweries found in parts of the US come pretty close to the British concept of pub, though no doubt some would want to make the distinction of beer being brewed on the premises (not unknown though in British pubs, though rare - I can think of two, one in Bury St Edmunds and one in Hampshire). But the British pub concept has changed in recent years too as more and more become restaurants, where the drinks are subsidiary to food. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food... Not really. I think it's what the operator calls it that counts, not your subjective judgement. The difficulty in France and Netherlands is that the word cafe seems to better correspond to the English usage for bar not cafe, but if there was agreement that this is indeed the case, we could solve it objectively by rote not by judgement. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
