Re: [Tagging] School and training
Fernando, if you really were to implement a style, chances are you'd prefer
filter the data once for schools of the primary educational system, without
bothering for explicitely filtering out all possible additional tags for any
other kind of 'schools'.
Yves
Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com a écrit :
I agree with Martin. If I were implementing a map renderer, it would be
far
easier to treat categorized things (such as school and restaurant)
using
the same visual style and same icon, instead of specifying each
possible
variation separately (I would need to know all possible values in that
category and the app would definitely miss any new values until I
manage to
update it again). Same thing if I were implementing a POI menu in a
navigation app. Same if I were compiling a list of places to print down
(this way it easily transforms into a nice hierarchical index).
And I don't see why this tagging style would prevent anyone from
searching
for a Chinese restaurant: just search for amenity=restaurant +
cuisine=chinese instead of amenity=chinese_restaurant. Similarly for
language schools.
So my vote goes for either:
- amenity=school + (if not a regular school) training={driving,
language,
music, cram, etc.} ( should work with practically all major
applications); or
- amenity=education + education={kindergarten, school, college,
university,
driving, language, music, cram, etc.}
And definitely against amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school,
amenity=cram_school, amenity=business_school, amenity=computer_school,
amenity=photography_school, amenity=dance_school, etc.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:
2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places
of
worship: If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic
church] I
am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]
yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while
a
language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a
driving
school.
school546360
driving_school3851
these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest
as
well.
preschool225
not a school IMHO ;-)
...
And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation,
sailing,
art, etc schools. So if this seems like the way forward, it would at
least
be good to document a list of values people can refer to.
+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a
lot
of sense. Would you also include a school of dolphins? ;-) Sorry
for the
groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is
school doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group
of
stuff.
cheers,
Martin
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The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law)
The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law)
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Re: [Tagging] School and training
Am 07/set/2013 um 09:32 schrieb Gmail yve...@gmail.com: Fernando, if you really were to implement a style, chances are you'd prefer filter the data once for schools of the primary educational system, without bothering for explicitely filtering out all possible additional tags for any other kind of 'schools'. +1, @Fernando: actually you don't agree with me, I was advocating for the opposite ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate support by current renderers and applications and no need for new tags. -1, you won't have immediate support for the feature, you just will see _something_ on the map, you could also use shop=supermarket for the language school and it would show up on the map ;-) While being tagging for the application, it doesn't sounds so incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language barrier). Would it be wrong to combine amenity=school and training= or should amenity=school be restricted solely to primary and secondary schools? there was a conclusion after some discussion some time ago that amenity=school should only be used for general education schools (primary and secondary schools). This is also described in the wiki. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
On 06.09.2013 09:58, Janko Mihelić wrote: I think Martin is right in asking to invent new tags for different types of schools. Makes it easier for the new mapper. Also, we already have amenity=driving_school. +1 amenity=language_school -1 Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use subkeys ? I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational service or training. cu fly. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
2013/9/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com -1 Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use subkeys ? I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational service or training. What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer courses, but training is really too generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
On 06.09.2013 13:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2013/9/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com -1 Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use subkeys ? I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational service or training. What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer courses, but training is really too generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone. Major advantage is the structure. It is easy to have more many keys than kind of stuff under only a handful major keys. Especially amenity=* is still crowded. * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not possible with the mix under amenity * it makes it easier to document and design presets as we do not have to create a structure there as we already have defined one with the major tag. You are right that training is too generic but there is no difference in search if you either search for amenity=* or education=*. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not possible with the mix under amenity if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar... Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship: If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue] That said, what you're proposing (separate amenity tags for different types of other schools) seems to be what's happening anyway, albeit slowly. Here's the top amenity tags with a value including school (from http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=amenity#values, searching for values with school): school546360 driving_school3851 preschool225 dancing_school174 ski_school112 school;place_of_worship92 music_school65 language_school40 prep_school35 dance_school19 School18 school;kindergarten12 place_of_worship;school10 schoolyard10 couching_school8 pre_school8 riding_school8 boarding_school6 kindergarten;school6 nursery_school6 diving_school5 musical_school5 private_school5 professional_school5 sport_school5 art_school4 school (historic)4 tuition_school4 And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools. So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to. Also, fwiw, amenity=tutoring is used 15 times and amenity=tutor 9 times. Brad On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/9/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com -1 Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use subkeys ? I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational service or training. What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer courses, but training is really too generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
I think you misunderstood my transition to a second point (maybe That said was not a clear enough pivot). The list was showing what is in the wild right now, and that things like amenity=ski_school/dance_school/language_school/driving_school/riding_school/etc are in use now, at least in a limited way. I thought that's what you were advocating for? If not, please clarify. Brad On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship: If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue] yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school. school546360 driving_school3851 these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well. preschool225 not a school IMHO ;-) ... And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools. So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to. +1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a school of dolphins? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is school doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
On 06.09.2013 15:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not possible with the mix under amenity if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar... Maybe, but by far more less than adding 100 or more values to amenity and they would have more in common. Our education system is quite complex and you will find lots of special cases depending on the countries but we are always talking about learning something. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship: If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue] yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school. school546360 driving_school3851 these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well. preschool225 not a school IMHO ;-) ... And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools. So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to. +1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a school of dolphins? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is school doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
I agree with Martin. If I were implementing a map renderer, it would be far
easier to treat categorized things (such as school and restaurant) using
the same visual style and same icon, instead of specifying each possible
variation separately (I would need to know all possible values in that
category and the app would definitely miss any new values until I manage to
update it again). Same thing if I were implementing a POI menu in a
navigation app. Same if I were compiling a list of places to print down
(this way it easily transforms into a nice hierarchical index).
And I don't see why this tagging style would prevent anyone from searching
for a Chinese restaurant: just search for amenity=restaurant +
cuisine=chinese instead of amenity=chinese_restaurant. Similarly for
language schools.
So my vote goes for either:
- amenity=school + (if not a regular school) training={driving, language,
music, cram, etc.} ( should work with practically all major
applications); or
- amenity=education + education={kindergarten, school, college, university,
driving, language, music, cram, etc.}
And definitely against amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school,
amenity=cram_school, amenity=business_school, amenity=computer_school,
amenity=photography_school, amenity=dance_school, etc.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:
2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of
worship: If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I
am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]
yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a
language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving
school.
school546360
driving_school3851
these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as
well.
preschool225
not a school IMHO ;-)
...
And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing,
art, etc schools. So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least
be good to document a list of values people can refer to.
+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot
of sense. Would you also include a school of dolphins? ;-) Sorry for the
groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is
school doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of
stuff.
cheers,
Martin
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--
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409
The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law)
The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law)
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[Tagging] School and training
Hello everyone, Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos). There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet: language schools and cram schools. I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've suggested we use training=tutoring, which is somehow more generic. What do you think? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com Hello everyone, Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos ). There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet: language schools and cram schools. I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've suggested we use training=tutoring, which is somehow more generic. What do you think? training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a more specific word. What about amenity=language_school? There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] School and training
Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate support by current renderers and applications and no need for new tags. While being tagging for the application, it doesn't sounds so incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language barrier). Would it be wrong to combine amenity=school and training= or should amenity=school be restricted solely to primary and secondary schools? On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com Hello everyone, Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos). There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet: language schools and cram schools. I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've suggested we use training=tutoring, which is somehow more generic. What do you think? training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a more specific word. What about amenity=language_school? There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
