Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: It is rare to prohibit hgvs as such, the way this is achieved is by weight or length. The most common is to prohibit vehicles over 7.5t, the historic breakpoint between a vehicle that could be driven on a car license and one requiring a hgv licence. At some point that weight was reduced, not sure what to or when. I can still drive a 7.5t truck due to when I passed my test. I can't remember when it changed, but it changed to 3.5t. (The range 3.5t to 7.5t is covered by the C1 driving licence.) One common weight restriction is 17.5t. I think the idea behind this is that the axle weight limit is 10t, and hgv designers have to leave a bit of leeway for how the load is positioned on/in the vehicle, so in practice the rated gross tonnage of a lorry is 8 times the number of axles. So, in effect, a 17.5t limit really means no vehicles with more than two axles. Also, width restrictions may in effect mean no hgv or psv, with except for access to allow the dustcart in. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Hi, Am 31.10.2012 um 23:49 schrieb Johan C osm...@gmail.com: Ok, so what you guys are saying is that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Restrictions is wrong on the description of motor_vehicles. Fine to me, but I would appreciate an improvement of that page then. How can that be achieved? No, I'm not saying its wrong, I'm saying it seriously outdated. Which might be related to the fact that I've never seen this page before and I guess there might be a few more who haven't. I'm also not sure if such a page is a good idea, because it will always be outdated. Currently we are unable to keep different language versions of single articles synchronised, so how can we expect to keep such articles up-to-date? Especially as this is not a specialised article about a single topic for which some people might feel responsible, but some all-in-one article. Maybe it would be better to reduce such articles to a link collection pointing to specific articles about one single topic? Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Am 30.10.2012 21:09, schrieb Johan C: I believe there is a solution, which is consistent to current tagging styles and which complies to the Keep It Simple Smart principle. In the situation of a motorway with three lanes, of which the rightmost lane is forbidden for motorvehicles (and PSV and HGV can use all three lanes) the tagging would be: motor_vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no No other access=*, hgv=* or psv=* tag needed in this situation. I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
2012/10/31 OSM o...@bavarianmallet.de: I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg I have to agree with Georg... of course unless the lanes are exclusively for horse-drawn cabs or carriages ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
I don't think I understand both responses (Georg/Martin). Why should a hgv and a psv use 'a kind of' motor_vehicle? According to the map features motor_vehicle is used for: 'Access permission for motor cars and motorcycles.' A bus or a truck is not one of these two types. If I put 'motor_vehicle=no' on any highway, then psv and hgv are still allowed to drive on that highway. Am I misreading the map features? 2012/10/31 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com 2012/10/31 OSM o...@bavarianmallet.de: I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg I have to agree with Georg... of course unless the lanes are exclusively for horse-drawn cabs or carriages ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Hi, The problem is the hierarchy of the access tags (see Land-based transportation in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access): the tag vehicle=no implies motor_vehicle=no and e.g. bicycle=no, the tag motor_vehicle=no implies e.g. psv=no and goods=no, and goods=no implies hgv=no. At least that's the way I understand it. And yes, this is neither perfect nor always intuitive. What about a cycle rickshaw? It's definitively a psv but most definitively not a motor_vehicle. Of course there is this great sentence in the access article: This hierarchy is different in each country. That's not making anything easier. I'll guess I have another look at the access 1.5 proposal which tries to clean up a little: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/access_restrictions_1.5 Martin Am 31.10.2012 um 18:56 schrieb Johan C osm...@gmail.com: I don't think I understand both responses (Georg/Martin). Why should a hgv and a psv use 'a kind of' motor_vehicle? According to the map features motor_vehicle is used for: 'Access permission for motor cars and motorcycles.' A bus or a truck is not one of these two types. If I put 'motor_vehicle=no' on any highway, then psv and hgv are still allowed to drive on that highway. Am I misreading the map features? 2012/10/31 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com 2012/10/31 OSM o...@bavarianmallet.de: I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg I have to agree with Georg... of course unless the lanes are exclusively for horse-drawn cabs or carriages ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
On Wed, 2012-10-31 at 18:56 +0100, Johan C wrote: I don't think I understand both responses (Georg/Martin). Why should a hgv and a psv use 'a kind of' motor_vehicle? According to the map features motor_vehicle is used for: 'Access permission for motor cars and motorcycles.' A bus or a truck is not one of these two types. If I put 'motor_vehicle=no' on any highway, then psv and hgv are still allowed to drive on that highway. Am I misreading the map features? In terms of road signs, the stunt motorcycle sign ( no motor vehicles ) includes buses and hgvs. That is the way I would certainly see it and the wiki seems to agree. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_619.svg If buses are allowed, then there will be a plate below saying except buses. It is rare to prohibit hgvs as such, the way this is achieved is by weight or length. The most common is to prohibit vehicles over 7.5t, the historic breakpoint between a vehicle that could be driven on a car license and one requiring a hgv licence. At some point that weight was reduced, not sure what to or when. I can still drive a 7.5t truck due to when I passed my test. Phil 2012/10/31 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com 2012/10/31 OSM o...@bavarianmallet.de: I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg I have to agree with Georg... of course unless the lanes are exclusively for horse-drawn cabs or carriages ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Ok, so what you guys are saying is that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Restrictions is wrong on the description of motor_vehicles. Fine to me, but I would appreciate an improvement of that page then. How can that be achieved? 2012/10/31 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk ** On Wed, 2012-10-31 at 18:56 +0100, Johan C wrote: I don't think I understand both responses (Georg/Martin). Why should a hgv and a psv use 'a kind of' motor_vehicle? According to the map features motor_vehicle is used for: 'Access permission for motor cars and motorcycles.' A bus or a truck is not one of these two types. If I put 'motor_vehicle=no' on any highway, then psv and hgv are still allowed to drive on that highway. Am I misreading the map features? In terms of road signs, the stunt motorcycle sign ( no motor vehicles ) includes buses and hgvs. That is the way I would certainly see it and the wiki seems to agree. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_619.svg If buses are allowed, then there will be a plate below saying except buses. It is rare to prohibit hgvs as such, the way this is achieved is by weight or length. The most common is to prohibit vehicles over 7.5t, the historic breakpoint between a vehicle that could be driven on a car license and one requiring a hgv licence. At some point that weight was reduced, not sure what to or when. I can still drive a 7.5t truck due to when I passed my test. Phil 2012/10/31 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com 2012/10/31 OSM o...@bavarianmallet.de: I am sorry to disagree, but if hgv and psv use a kind of motor_vehicle, they are still not allowed on the rightmost lane then ... according to the tagging. Georg I have to agree with Georg... of course unless the lanes are exclusively for horse-drawn cabs or carriages ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
I believe there is a solution, which is consistent to current tagging styles and which complies to the Keep It Simple Smart principle. In the situation of a motorway with three lanes, of which the rightmost lane is forbidden for motorvehicles (and PSV and HGV can use all three lanes) the tagging would be: motor_vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no No other access=*, hgv=* or psv=* tag needed in this situation. Cheers, Johan 2012/10/30 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com 2012/10/29 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl: Here is a simple proposal that avoids confusion with the existing access restrictions. special_use_lanes = no | no | hgv (or special_use:lanes = .. to be consistent with other lanes tags) Values can be 'no' (no special limitations apply to this lane), 'hgv', 'psv', 'hov' etc. special_use_lanes is just a suggestion, other words not making an association to access could also be used. Other ideas: special_lanes, exclusive_use_lanes Would this be a useful way forward? I thought about that also but I'm not sure if I want to go down that road. Any new key raises the (already present) risk of being inconsistent. Just imagine hgv:lanes=yes|no and special_use:lanes=no|hgv on the same way. I'm not sure if there's a simple solution to this problem. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Try to see it from a data consumer point of view. Let's say you are a bicycle routing engine and want to know if you are allowed to drive here. With the current scheme you see an access = no. so you assume you don't have access. Then you look if there are special permissions for bikes (because, after all, you are a bike routing engine) and find nothing like bicycle=yes. So you know what to do: deny access. With you proposal, you'll find no access = no (just a valid highway tag). So you assume you are allowed there. There is no other key for bikes. So how do you know bikes are not allowed? You'll have to check every possible transportation mode, if maybe one of them has EXCLUSIVE access to this stretch of road. Maybe psv? Maybe hasmat? Who knows.. If you group this under a general key like exclusive_access= psv, you'll at least have a chance (if something is listed, but it's not bike, then deny access). But you'll have to look for it for every d*** road there is, not just those with access = no. So in my opinion, there is no way around first specifying the general case (access = no) and then the special case (psv=yes). Regards, Chaos 2012/10/29 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I'm looking for a possibility to tag exclusive access rights. What I mean by this is a way to specify that one specific vehicle is allowed and everything else is forbidden. If I specify e.g. hgv=yes it only means (at least in my understanding) that hgv are allowed there. I'm not sure about the meaning of access=hgv: is this a valid tag? What is its meaning? I am aware of the combination access=no and xxx=yes, but I'm looking for a nicer solution. The background of my question is the following demand: specify that the rightmost lane (of three lanes) can only be accessed by psv and hgv. Right now I only know this solution: vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no psv:lanes=yes|yes|yes hgv:lanes=yes|yes|yes Three tags for such a simple thing. What I'm looking for is something like this: somenicekey:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv If access=hgv means that only hgv are allowed, I could use that. But as I wrote: I'm not sure if this tag is valid and if it is I am not sure about its meaning. Any hints/comments/recommendations? Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
2012/10/29 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: I'm looking for a possibility to tag exclusive access rights. Right now I only know this solution: vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no psv:lanes=yes|yes|yes hgv:lanes=yes|yes|yes Three tags for such a simple thing. What I'm looking for is something like this: somenicekey:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv basically what would be needed for your prosal to work is changing the default from access=yes to access=no and all applications additionally would have to evaluate these multivalue-values (both, those separated by | and those separated by ; ). IMHO this is not a desirable direction to move to. What is the problem with using 3 tags to tag the situation for 3 access-modes (vehicle, psv, hgv)? It is much more transparent. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
On 10/29/12 7:29 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: basically what would be needed for your prosal to work is changing the default from access=yes to access=no and all applications additionally would have to evaluate these multivalue-values (both, those separated by | and those separated by ; ). IMHO this is not a desirable direction to move to. i think this is understated. such a massive change is almost certain to fail. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Hi! what about this: access:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv But what if there is no sidewalk at the street? Or if you ride a horse? Is it explicit forbidden to use the road? This is the reason because I don't like to use the access=* tag. Better is this: vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|psv;hgv Masi P.S.: Ok, this works too, if NOTHING is allowed on the buslane, except bus hgv: access:lanes=yes|yes|psv;hgv Am 29.10.2012, 11:35 Uhr, schrieb Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I'm looking for a possibility to tag exclusive access rights. What I mean by this is a way to specify that one specific vehicle is allowed and everything else is forbidden. If I specify e.g. hgv=yes it only means (at least in my understanding) that hgv are allowed there. I'm not sure about the meaning of access=hgv: is this a valid tag? What is its meaning? I am aware of the combination access=no and xxx=yes, but I'm looking for a nicer solution. The background of my question is the following demand: specify that the rightmost lane (of three lanes) can only be accessed by psv and hgv. Right now I only know this solution: vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no psv:lanes=yes|yes|yes hgv:lanes=yes|yes|yes Three tags for such a simple thing. What I'm looking for is something like this: somenicekey:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv If access=hgv means that only hgv are allowed, I could use that. But as I wrote: I'm not sure if this tag is valid and if it is I am not sure about its meaning. Any hints/comments/recommendations? Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
People - really! Where did I propose to change any tags at all? I asked a question! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Masi, thank you for understanding my question. 2012/10/29 Masi Master masi-mas...@gmx.de: Hi! what about this: access:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv That is exactly what I'm not sure of. Is access=psv valid? I don't think it is documented in the wiki in this way. And if it is valid, does it really mean PSV and nothing else? But what if there is no sidewalk at the street? Or if you ride a horse? Is it explicit forbidden to use the road? That's exactly my question. This is the reason because I don't like to use the access=* tag. I'll never used it before neither. Better is this: vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|psv;hgv It is not the way it is documented in the wiki nor used this way. Have a look at taginfo: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/vehicle#values vehicle=psv is used 43 times in the whole world. I doubt this is supported anywhere. So I guess there is no way using the access key or the transportation mode keys to express an exclusive access. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Hi Martin. Nobody said you did. What has been said is that if you want to have some kind of exclusice access tag that in fact is a change to how the access tagging currently works. Access tagging currently is: -use access=yes|no to set a default -add more details by adding access tags for any other modes of transportation etc. So it's quite easy to tag an exclusive access for e.g. psv: access=no, psv=yes, and the default for access is common to be yes usually. What you propose is in fact a change of this in the data consumers view. You propose to have instead the possibility to tag exclusive_access=psv or something like that. With that data consumers have to know your exclusive tag on top of the others, as now exclusive_access=psv would be a more or less short for access=no, psv=yes. Data consumers who don't know or implement this will fail here, because they will use access=yes as their default fallback as usual, and don't know about exclusive_access=*, so they interpret it as generally accessibly by all. To fix that, in fact data consumers would have to change their default to access=no, and that's where you don't change an existing tag, but change how a set of tags together has to be interpreted to be usual - while on the other hand it's only one tag more to do it in a more data user friendly way. regards Peter Am 29.10.2012 12:40, schrieb Martin Vonwald: People - really! Where did I propose to change any tags at all? I asked a question! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
On 29.10.2012 12:51, Martin Vonwald wrote: Masi, thank you for understanding my question. 2012/10/29 Masi Master masi-mas...@gmx.de: Hi! what about this: access:lanes=vehicle|vehicle|psv;hgv That is exactly what I'm not sure of. Is access=psv valid? I don't think it is documented in the wiki in this way. And if it is valid, does it really mean PSV and nothing else? It is currently not valid - vehicle types can only appear in the key, whereas groups of users (forestry, customers, delivery, ...) can only appear in the value. For the groups of users, it actually gives exclusive access rights to that group. I can imagine changing this if we find a nice definition. Of course applications would not be compatible with that at first, but mappers could simply refrain from using it excessively and limit the use to lanes and similar cases where compatibility doesn't matter as much. Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
Am 29.10.2012 um 14:27 schrieb Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: It is currently not valid - vehicle types can only appear in the key, whereas groups of users (forestry, customers, delivery, ...) can only appear in the value. For the groups of users, it actually gives exclusive access rights to that group. That's how I understand it. Thanks for the confirmation. I can imagine changing this if we find a nice definition. Of course applications would not be compatible with that at first, but mappers could simply refrain from using it excessively and limit the use to lanes and similar cases where compatibility doesn't matter as much. I'm afraid that we wouldn't get app-support for this. On the other hand if mappers are forced to use a lot of tags simply to specify what kind of vehicles are allowed for each lane, I believe most mappers will just forget about it. It's not worth the hassle especially as in the beginning no apps would support it. And as no-one maps it then why should apps support it? That's one of the drawbacks of the consumer-centered view: create theoretically perfect tagging schemes that are wonderfully easy to process - and so hard to map that there's no need to implement the processing because no one is using the scheme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Exclusive access rights
On 29/10/2012 18:29, Martin Vonwald (imagic) wrote: Am 29.10.2012 um 14:27 schrieb Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de mailto:o...@tobias-knerr.de: It is currently not valid - vehicle types can only appear in the key, whereas groups of users (forestry, customers, delivery, ...) can only appear in the value. For the groups of users, it actually gives exclusive access rights to that group. That's how I understand it. Thanks for the confirmation. I can imagine changing this if we find a nice definition. Of course applications would not be compatible with that at first, but mappers could simply refrain from using it excessively and limit the use to lanes and similar cases where compatibility doesn't matter as much. I'm afraid that we wouldn't get app-support for this. On the other hand if mappers are forced to use a lot of tags simply to specify what kind of vehicles are allowed for each lane, I believe most mappers will just forget about it. It's not worth the hassle especially as in the beginning no apps would support it. And as no-one maps it then why should apps support it? That's one of the drawbacks of the consumer-centered view: create theoretically perfect tagging schemes that are wonderfully easy to process - and so hard to map that there's no need to implement the processing because no one is using the scheme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle Here is a simple proposal that avoids confusion with the existing access restrictions. special_use_lanes = no | no | hgv (or special_use:lanes = .. to be consistent with other lanes tags) Values can be 'no' (no special limitations apply to this lane), 'hgv', 'psv', 'hov' etc. special_use_lanes is just a suggestion, other words not making an association to access could also be used. Other ideas: special_lanes, exclusive_use_lanes Would this be a useful way forward? Ole / polderrunner ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
