Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Popper attribution on mobile map?
On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:50, Martijn Pannevis wrote: Let me say this again: I didn't want to annoy anyone, we do want to adhere to the OSM license, but I just want to know how to do that best. Look, I've told you what has been advised to everyone in a similar situation to you. All of those people have accepted the advice. I've told you I'm raising it at the next Foundation meeting. You can go with that or you can go with the 101 opinions you'll get here. I may well be telling you the wrong thing, but there is a Foundation and a new license process for a reason and it may well come back with something better for you. Please don't try to subvert these things. Best Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism, was Vandalism in Trumpington
Does the project have any long term plans on how to deal with vandalism? Should some features be locked? Do we need some kind of hierarchy with block captains and country coordinators? (I don't want that.) On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:36 AM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40 on April 16? This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area. I could undo it manually, but the changes are significant and it would be easier if this could be done automatically. I will send her (presumably) a message. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mapping while hiking
2008/4/27 Igor Brejc [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Charles Basenga Kiyanda wrote: Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't thought about clipping the receiver to the top of my backpack. I also hadn't thought that a lot of small movement, compared to a steady stable displacement, might lower the accuracy. I'll keep that in mind if I try to attach the gps to my forearm and see what happens. Good suggestions frome everyone. I'll keep it in mind. Charles I'm using Vista Cx. From my experience and from what I've read from other people, I get the best reception if the unit is facing up, as you said. I'm not sure small movements affect it that much. I also use poles, but when walking on a flat terrain I tend to hold both poles in one hand and the unit in the other :). I also try to hold it in the hand which does not face a slope, it helps a little bit. I did discover one other thing: if I leave the unit turned off for a week or so, the unit's clock is no longer in sync, so it shows the incorrect time (even by a couple of days). The problem with this is that it calculates positions of the satellites using the incorrect time, so it takes quite a while to find the right satellites (and then synchronize the time). Unfortunately I couldn't find a way to set the time manually. Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net That shouldn't really be a problem unless your receiver uses a very crappy software because GPS satellites broadcast correct time every 30s. So your receiver should just pick that. It sounds like your problem is mainly that it takes time find satellites as your receiver can't make pretty much assumptions on which satellites it should try find if it has been turned off for a week. -- Lauri Hahne ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water]
On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 07:24 +0600, Francois De Ryckel wrote: We have a similar issue in Bangaldesh http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?zoom=8lat=23.43505lon=89.95194layers=B00T Any ways to restore the square missing? These are due to errors in the coastline ways. The red lines and circles highlight the location of the errors which will need to be fixed by editing the ways. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RSS Feed for Image of the Week
Now on Planet OpenStreetMap: http://planet-osm.shaunmcdonald.me.uk/ On 27 Apr 2008, at 07:40, Jochen Topf wrote: Hi! If you want to always see the current Image of the Week in your RSS reader, point it at http://geo.topf.org/iotw.rss There is a little script behind it, that gets the current IOTW and its description from the wiki once a night and converts it to RSS. Jochen -- Jochen Topf [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Holux M-241
Back in March I asked for user-friendly GPS datalogger recommendations, and a handful of people kindly posted their experiences. One unit that people were interested in was the Holux M-241. The main downside seemed to be that it would only record a trackpoint every 5s. I gather there's now a firmware update (1.11) that fixes this. From the comments at http://www.gpspassion.com/FORUMSEN/topic.asp? TOPIC_ID=103883whichpage=4 and http://scilib.typepad.com/techreviews/ 2008/01/holux-m-241-gps.html , it appears you can now select 1s as well as 5s. So it looks like it might be a good unit to go for. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water]
blank - Original Message - From: Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francois De Ryckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water] On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 07:24 +0600, Francois De Ryckel wrote: We have a similar issue in Bangaldesh http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?zoom=8lat=23.43505lon=89.95194layers=B00T Any ways to restore the square missing? These are due to errors in the coastline ways. The red lines and circles highlight the location of the errors which will need to be fixed by editing the ways. When I originally imported the coastline in that part of the world I fixed it all. Unfortuntealtey it seems someone has now deleted quite a few coastline ways in that area leading to an incomplete coastline, and the errors being reported. The correct ways should I guess still be in the history , but I'm not sure how to retrieve it. David Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water]
On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 15:32 +0100, David Groom wrote: http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?zoom=8lat=23.43505lon=89.95194layers=B00T Any ways to restore the square missing? These are due to errors in the coastline ways. The red lines and circles highlight the location of the errors which will need to be fixed by editing the ways. When I originally imported the coastline in that part of the world I fixed it all. Unfortuntealtey it seems someone has now deleted quite a few coastline ways in that area leading to an incomplete coastline, and the errors being reported. The correct ways should I guess still be in the history , but I'm not sure how to retrieve it. I've got a coastline shapefile from 2008-01-28 and that does indeed show that area as being nicely complete. I can see lots of disconnected nodes in the area now but the Potlatch 'Undelete' does not show any ways to be recovered. Does the upload script create a log of the way IDs and if so, do you have a copy still? I guess we may need to search an older planet dump (or diff files) to find and resurrect the ways. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water]
- Original Message - From: Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Groom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water] On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 15:32 +0100, David Groom wrote: http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?zoom=8lat=23.43505lon=89.95194layers=B00T Any ways to restore the square missing? These are due to errors in the coastline ways. The red lines and circles highlight the location of the errors which will need to be fixed by editing the ways. When I originally imported the coastline in that part of the world I fixed it all. Unfortuntealtey it seems someone has now deleted quite a few coastline ways in that area leading to an incomplete coastline, and the errors being reported. The correct ways should I guess still be in the history , but I'm not sure how to retrieve it. I've got a coastline shapefile from 2008-01-28 and that does indeed show that area as being nicely complete. I can see lots of disconnected nodes in the area now but the Potlatch 'Undelete' does not show any ways to be recovered. Does the upload script create a log of the way IDs and if so, do you have a copy still? I used the coast_josm.pl script to create a local osm file, edited that to correct coastline errors, and then uploaded from within JOSM. I may haved saved the file after upload, but I doubt it. I'll have a look though. David I guess we may need to search an older planet dump (or diff files) to find and resurrect the ways. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40 on April 16? I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal footing when it comes to rolling back. As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism, was Vandalism in Trumpington
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the project have any long term plans on how to deal with vandalism? There's more ideas than there are developers willing and capable of implementing them! Should some features be locked? Do we need some kind of hierarchy with block captains and country coordinators? (I don't want that.) I doubt that we'd go down those lines. What I would be focussing on is trying to make the reversion easier than the vandalism itself - at that point we should be in a much better position to keep on top of things should we run into problems. I think our range of possibilities will be much improved after next weekend's hack day, but there's a whole load of development work to go into this. Cheers, Andy On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:36 AM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40 on April 16? This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area. I could undo it manually, but the changes are significant and it would be easier if this could be done automatically. I will send her (presumably) a message. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On 27/04/2008 17:25, Andy Allan wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40 on April 16? I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal footing when it comes to rolling back. Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the whole of Cambridge? As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway. I would. It's going to take me an hour or so to repair these changes, which are all isolated (there's no further changes in that area); if I could roll back, it would be quick and easy. Sadly I have the OSM file for this, but I did it during API4, so it won't read any more, otherwise I could just copy my original data. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
You can convert that file. Just search for 04to05.pl in SVN/TRAC On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27/04/2008 17:25, Andy Allan wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40 on April 16? I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal footing when it comes to rolling back. Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the whole of Cambridge? As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway. I would. It's going to take me an hour or so to repair these changes, which are all isolated (there's no further changes in that area); if I could roll back, it would be quick and easy. Sadly I have the OSM file for this, but I did it during API4, so it won't read any more, otherwise I could just copy my original data. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On 26/04/2008 23:36, David Earl wrote: This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area. The perpetrator has replied, slightly to my surprise. As I had thought, she had no idea that she was changing the live database and she apologises profusely. But this raises once again the ease with which people who don't know what they are doing can wreck things unintentionally. None of the changes I've had to undo in my area seem to have been wanton vandalism: all three incidents have been people playing, and two of them have been after the play mode was introduced in Potlatch. We won't stop determined vandals, but we can try to make it harder to make mistakes like this. I've noticed that the start, play,... buttons often appear then disappear shortly after in IE without me pressing them (I can't speak for Firefox, I don't use it often enough to tell). I wonder if this is part of the problem - that people may never see the 'play' mode button? Even so, I'd like to suggest we make this rather harder to mess up: what about we put a flag into the user data that says first timer that is on to start with and can be changed by that user via the API; and that Potlatch and maybe JOSM put up a warning screen on first attempt at editing which says you are about to change the OpenStreetMap live map data. Are you sure you are read to do this? If you haven't done this before, please try out editing first in 'play' mode when changes aren't saved and then three buttons, to proceed, cancel or go into play mode; and on proceed, clear the flag. If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode buttons be fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed when you press start? David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal footing when it comes to rolling back. Oh. I thought this had been done. It might have been - it's hard to keep track of everything that goes on around here :-) So what happens if someone deletes the whole of Cambridge? - We hope they don't - We hope they wait until after the monitoring and rollback hackathon has happened - We all muck in and help out reverting stuff, or work out some other way to fix it. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the whole of Cambridge? What I used to do was after uploading an area I also saved it to disk. So I had saved copies of my neighbourhood. If you noticed somebody deleted something I could just load the file into JOSM, make some dummy change and upload, viola! Not exactly nice, but it worked. Something that would be nice would be a server you could point to that had data from a week ago, that would make it much easier to revert stuff like this if it get noticed in time... Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
David Earl wrote: If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode buttons be fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed when you press start? It's not a bug as such - it's currently intentional that it defaults to edit the data - but I do agree that it would be better to have a more descriptive welcome screen that requires it to be cleared before you proceed, with (of course) a don't show this again checkbox. I don't want to do it half-cocked, so it's not a quick fix, but Potlatch development priorities are often decided by frequency of requests on the mailing lists so you've just bumped that one up a bit. (Incidentally, on the issue of vandalism and accountability, where were we with disabling anonymous edits through the main API...?) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On 27/04/2008 17:49, Skywave wrote: You can convert that file. Just search for 04to05.pl in SVN/TRAC Thanks! That almost worked - the conversion left some empty strings in the XML which JOSM didn't like, but removing those redundant lines got me the data I needed.# With copy and paste between layers for the ways that had been deleted, plus merge nodes, I was able to pretty quickly put that all back together again. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
On 27 Apr 2008, at 17:52, David Earl wrote: On 26/04/2008 23:36, David Earl wrote: This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area. The perpetrator has replied, slightly to my surprise. As I had thought, she had no idea that she was changing the live database and she apologises profusely. But this raises once again the ease with which people who don't know what they are doing can wreck things unintentionally. None of the changes I've had to undo in my area seem to have been wanton vandalism: all three incidents have been people playing, and two of them have been after the play mode was introduced in Potlatch. We won't stop determined vandals, but we can try to make it harder to make mistakes like this. I've noticed that the start, play,... buttons often appear then disappear shortly after in IE without me pressing them (I can't speak for Firefox, I don't use it often enough to tell). I wonder if this is part of the problem - that people may never see the 'play' mode button? I see this behaviour in Safari too. Also if you just go and start working on the data, it assumes start/live mode. I think this should be made modal, so that you can't accidentally choose the live mode, when play is the one that is really wanted. It would be nice to have some indication as to whether you are in live or play modes. Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Shaun McDonald wrote: I see this behaviour in Safari too. Also if you just go and start working on the data, it assumes start/live mode. I think this should be made modal, so that you can't accidentally choose the live mode, when play is the one that is really wanted. It would be nice to have some indication as to whether you are in live or play modes. There _is_ an indication, a bright red one, if you're in play mode. I've already said that I plan to make it modal. If you see it in Safari please provide a test case so I can reproduce it. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Hi, Is the fact that Potlatch does live editing a design decision, or are there technical reasons behind it (i.e. it would be much more difficult to have a Flash editor with a save button)? It's a design decision. If you do buffered editing, you have to a) do conflict management, b) visualise unsaved changes on a map that stretches everywhere. Both are very serious UI challenges and complications for what's meant to be the newbie-friendly editor. Conflicts may happen even with today's Potlatch - they're just less likely. (But likely to become more likely in the future as the number of users rises!) And about visualising unsaved changes on the world map - isn't that what play mode does? People occasionally make comparisons with text-based wikis like Wikipedia, but it's not really helpful, because they're much more modal: when you've edited a Wikipedia page, you either save or abort. You can't just leave it unsaved as you continue browsing. So if you translate that model to OSM, where the atoms are much smaller, you end up presenting a Save/Cancel dialogue box on every deselect, which is a UI disaster. Well now you are the one who is making invalid comparisons. You can't leave tons of Wiki articles unsaved while browsing, but I don't see why I could not leave one street unsaved as I tend to the neighbouring one! I'm not sure if you really do newcomers a favour by denying them the ability to enter a number of changes to different ways, then see how they play together, and then save them. And if somebody first makes some edits in London and after that some completely unrelated edits in Brazil, then I'd damn well want him to close his London edits - ideally with a comment about what he thinks he has done - before he starts something else. For this reason, the issue would be largely solved - as David suggests - by requiring those who aren't sure what they're doing to actively choose between Edit and Play. That would probably fix David's problem but still not give me my save button. What I'd like to see (and use!) comes down to doing some stuff in play mode and then switching over to real mode (whoa, i386 flashback!), whereby Potlatch asks me do you want to retain your play mode changes. Then, just a slight renaming (play mode becomes edit mode, real mode becomes save) and we're there ;-) (The issue would be _completely_ solved by doing this _and_ making Potlatch easier to use in general, i.e. pop-up help, fewer obscure keypresses, etc. It's an ongoing thing.) The original issue, yes, likely. If you want buffered editing, use JOSM. And at that point I could get onto the subject of are we - in particular, the wiki - encouraging people to run [use JOSM] before they can walk [use Potlatch], but that's a whole nuther kettle of fish. ;) What I want is encourage people to have an idea about what they're doing, and communicate that idea to others. I don't think that there really is an use-case for browse editing, i.e. someone opening Potlatch just to look at something and making a few edits where he suddenly sees a mistake. My assumption is that people know (roughly) what it is they want to edit BEFORE they hit the edit button. And I want them to make that complete edit, double-check if they have achieved what they wanted, and then save it. People don't use Potlatch because they don't want buffered editing. People use Potlatch because it is much quicker to load, learn, and use. This would not be diminished by a save button; in fact, I believe a newcomer would feel much safer if one would tell him that nothing is changed until he clicks save. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Frederik Ramm wrote: People use Potlatch because it is much quicker to load, learn, and use. This would not be diminished by a save button On which point we disagree, I suspect irreconcilably; and respectfully I suggest the greater cause of OSM usability would be better served by us each spending a couple of hours coding on our respective editors, rather than bashing seven bells out of each other on the mailing list. :) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Richard Fairhurst schrieb: Frederik Ramm wrote: Is the fact that Potlatch does live editing a design decision, or are there technical reasons behind it (i.e. it would be much more difficult to have a Flash editor with a save button)? It's a design decision. If you do buffered editing, you have to a) do conflict management, b) visualise unsaved changes on a map that stretches everywhere. Both are very serious UI challenges and complications for what's meant to be the newbie-friendly editor. Wiki's seems to be working well in this regard. I mean, wiki pages can also be pretty long ... Anyway, newbies *have* problems with the current model, not maybe problems as you mention here. People occasionally make comparisons with text-based wikis like Wikipedia, but it's not really helpful, because they're much more modal: when you've edited a Wikipedia page, you either save or abort. You can't just leave it unsaved as you continue browsing. So if you translate that model to OSM, where the atoms are much smaller, you end up presenting a Save/Cancel dialogue box on every deselect, which is a UI disaster. You are editing a wiki page in several small pieces, called characters, lines, chapters. You are editing the OSM map in small pieces, called nodes, ways, tags, ... From a usability perspective your whole argumentation makes no real sense to me here. For this reason, the issue would be largely solved - as David suggests - by requiring those who aren't sure what they're doing to actively choose between Edit and Play. Even with Edit, I would expect to have an option to Save or Cancel editings later. Seems that others have the same problem/expectation ... BTW: This Edit vs. Play is a concept that you'll see rarely if ever, there might be reasons that it's less used. The sole reason this hasn't been done yet is really that lots of people want lots of features in Potlatch and those which are mentioned most on the mailing lists/users' diaries/forum tend to get done first. This doesn't come up much, so it hasn't been. It will be. In fact I'm kinda tempted just to do it this evening because it's probably a whole lot easier, and less typing, than a protracted mailing list debate. (The issue would be _completely_ solved by doing this _and_ making Potlatch easier to use in general, i.e. pop-up help, fewer obscure keypresses, etc. It's an ongoing thing.) If you want buffered editing, use JOSM. And at that point I could get onto the subject of are we - in particular, the wiki - encouraging people to run [use JOSM] before they can walk [use Potlatch], but that's a whole nuther kettle of fish. ;) I'm sorry, but I really still think that you are getting in the wrong direction ... This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of confusion ... Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Ulf Lamping wrote: This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of confusion ... Fine. I'm really not going to attempt and convince anyone here - one has to be a bit of a pig-headed UI fascist to develop stuff like this, otherwise you end up with design by committee which just doesn't work. I think it's good that we offer editors that work in different ways; that there is more than one answer to the questions of how's stuff written to the db and how do I avoid causing damage, although Potlatch doesn't adequately answer those questions yet; and that those who are arguing for a save button are trying to impose a model which doesn't suit Potlatch. You and Frederik and doubtless others disagree - as shown by the fact that you find something painful while I actively prefer it. That's fine, there's no monopoly on editors. I don't feel it's impossible to have a usable editor that doesn't work on the prepare and commit principle, and that's what I'm concentrating on building. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Fairhurst wrote: | David Earl wrote: | | If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode | buttons be | fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed | when | you press start? | | It's not a bug as such - it's currently intentional that it defaults | to edit the data - but I do agree that it would be better to have a | more descriptive welcome screen that requires it to be cleared before | you proceed, with (of course) a don't show this again checkbox. I | don't want to do it half-cocked, so it's not a quick fix, but | Potlatch development priorities are often decided by frequency of | requests on the mailing lists so you've just bumped that one up a bit. I suspect that the problem is that people think they can play a bit, then get a Do you wish to save your changes?, and be able to press no. ~ So I guess Potlatch may need a splash screen that makes it's all changes are saved straight away philosophy clearer to new users. Personally I think the play mode is very confusing. Now that we have http://main.dev.openstreetmap.org/, it's arguably not necessary. We should just direct new people to have a play there. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIFQM9z+aYVHdncI0RAttyAJsFd/SQsn12hHZGH4SEFZk5/mQ9PwCgzZH3 RW8Pq/Wi6kQ6kaAB1QlDFSw= =ECJY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington
Richard Fairhurst schreef: Ulf Lamping wrote: This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of confusion ... Fine. I'm really not going to attempt and convince anyone here - one has to be a bit of a pig-headed UI fascist to develop stuff like this, otherwise you end up with design by committee which just doesn't work. I think it's good that we offer editors that work in different ways; that there is more than one answer to the questions of how's stuff written to the db and how do I avoid causing damage, although Potlatch doesn't adequately answer those questions yet; and that those who are arguing for a save button are trying to impose a model which doesn't suit Potlatch. You and Frederik and doubtless others disagree - as shown by the fact that you find something painful while I actively prefer it. That's fine, there's no monopoly on editors. I don't feel it's impossible to have a usable editor that doesn't work on the prepare and commit principle, and that's what I'm concentrating on building. Keep up the good work Richard! Polyglot (who uses both editors; JOSM for initial entering of data/Potlatch for fine tuning afterwards and aligning on Yahoo! imagery) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap State Of The Map 2008 conference early-bird registration
On 26 Apr 2008, at 17:03, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, There's just over a week to go for early bird registration for OpenStreetMap's second international conference in Limerick, Ireland on the weekend of 12-13 July 2008. It is a great opportunity to meet your fellow mappers from all over the world. I can't help noticing that the registration fee has doubled from £25 last year to £50 this year (and that's comparing last year's normal price to this year's early bird). What is the reason behind that? Is Limerick so much more expensive than Manchester? Have we doubled the amount of food available per person? Has this year's conference attracted significantly less sponsor money than last year's? Has last year's conference ended in a financial disaster for the organisers? Or wishful_thinkingare we now paying our speakers?/wishful_thinking My consulting fee has doubled. Can I put you down to help organise next year then? :-) Best Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water]
I found the script paul created? http://www.lenz-online.de/divers/osm/ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Running_the_coastline_upload can't we just use it to re-load the missing data? Francois David Groom wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Groom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: Bangladesh under the water] On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 15:32 +0100, David Groom wrote: http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?zoom=8lat=23.43505lon=89.95194layers=B00T Any ways to restore the square missing? These are due to errors in the coastline ways. The red lines and circles highlight the location of the errors which will need to be fixed by editing the ways. When I originally imported the coastline in that part of the world I fixed it all. Unfortuntealtey it seems someone has now deleted quite a few coastline ways in that area leading to an incomplete coastline, and the errors being reported. The correct ways should I guess still be in the history , but I'm not sure how to retrieve it. I've got a coastline shapefile from 2008-01-28 and that does indeed show that area as being nicely complete. I can see lots of disconnected nodes in the area now but the Potlatch 'Undelete' does not show any ways to be recovered. Does the upload script create a log of the way IDs and if so, do you have a copy still? I used the coast_josm.pl script to create a local osm file, edited that to correct coastline errors, and then uploaded from within JOSM. I may haved saved the file after upload, but I doubt it. I'll have a look though. David I guess we may need to search an older planet dump (or diff files) to find and resurrect the ways. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk François de Ryckel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Update: POI Control
Mein Problem ist, dass ich noch nicht heraus gefunden habe, wie ich die Auswahl der POIs im Link unterbekomme? Falls das derzeit noch nicht geht, wäre ich dir sehr dankbar, wenn du dieses Feature implementieren würdest. Echt eine nette Idee, ich habe sie gerade mal umgesetzt. Hier ein Beispiel-Link: http://www.lenz-online.de/osm?lat=55.75lon=37.62zoom=15poi=amenity+place_of_worship,amenity+pub,tourism+hotel Ich denke, der Syntax wird klar. Konsequenterweise muesste man auch noch die Icon-Groesse im Link voreinstellen koennen, und all dies sollte auch im Permalink erscheinen, aber dazu habe ich jetzt gerade keinen Bock :) Paul ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] JOSM - langsam bei ausgefüllten Polyg onen?
Hallo! Ich habe mich (obwohl ich schon einige Zeit mappe) vor Kurzem erst intensiver mit ausgefüllten Polygonen beschäftigt, insbesondere um Wälder zu mappen. Die aktuelle Version von JOSM wird jedoch immer dann extrem langsam wenn eine große Fläche eines halbtransparent ausgefüllten Polygons sichtbar ist. Solange das Polygon markiert ist und deshalb die Fläche nicht halbtransparent sondern komplett ausgefüllt ist, merke ich keine Geschwindigkeitseinbußen. Das Problem tritt unabhängig vom WMS-Plugin und bei mir auf mehreren Rechnern (beides Ubuntu Hardy) auf. Ist das jemandem anderen auch schon aufgefallen oder bin ich der erste, der das Problem hat? Lg, Wolfgang. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] JOSM - langsam bei ausgefüllten Polyg onen?
Andreas Jacob schrieb: Ist dein Ubuntu 32bit oder auch 64bit? Ist ein 32bit, scheint also nicht so als ob das der Grund wäre. Was mir auch aufgefallen ist: das Geschwindigkeitsproblem verstärkt sich proportional zur Fläche, die am Bildschirm angezeigt wird. Wenn ich eine Fläche bildschirmfüllend anzeige ist das Problem um einiges extremer als wenn ich herauszoome und die gleiche Fläche kleiner anzeigen lasse. Lg, Wolfgang. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
Hallo liebe Leute, super Wetter heute und ich würde gerne meine ersten OSM-Daten erheben. Habe einen PDA (HTC P3600) mit integriertem GPS. Darauf läuft Windows Mobile 5.0. Welches Open Source Programm ist zu empfehlen, um mit diesem Gerät GPS-Tracks aufzuzeichnen? Was würdet Ihr empfehlen? Vielen Dank im Voraus, Kai -- Psst! Geheimtipp: Online Games kostenlos spielen bei den GMX Free Games! http://games.entertainment.gmx.net/de/entertainment/games/free ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:02:24 +0200 Kai Behncke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Welches Open Source Programm ist zu empfehlen, um mit diesem Gerät GPS-Tracks aufzuzeichnen? Was würdet Ihr empfehlen? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Making_Tracks_with_Homebrew-ware#Windows_Mobile Scheint nur kostenlose zu geben, keine freien. Hättst du dir mal lieber ein N8xx Nokia Inet Table gekauft ;) Da gibts super software... Viel erfolg beim testen der kostenlosen Software Gruß Eichi -- open source for an open mind! use Linux and feel free! - Mein Weblog: http://der-eichi.de Themen unter anderem aus den Bereichen |Politik|, |Linux| und |freie Software| - Mein öffentlicher PGP Schlüssel: http://pgp.der-eichi.de | Leider konnte ich Ihren öffentlichen Schlüssel nicht finden, daher schreibe ich Ihnen | | unverschlüsselt und hoffe, dies ist akzeptabel | ! Freie Alternative zu Google Maps Co.: http://www.openstreetmap.org ! signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
hallo, ich bin auch relativ neu dabei :-) habe einen pda mit windows mobile 6. am anfang habe ich mit odgps [1] rumprobiert. ist zwar o.k. - hat mir aber nicht ganz so gefallen. ich habe mir dann gps-tuner [2] angeschaut. und das proggi hat mir dann doch besser gefallen. ist kein open-source - kostet 29 euro - ist aber echt sein geld wert. gruss andreas [1] http://www.outdoor-gps.de/ [2] http://www.gpstuner.com/de/ Am Sonntag, den 27.04.2008, 15:02 +0200 schrieb Kai Behncke: Hallo liebe Leute, super Wetter heute und ich würde gerne meine ersten OSM-Daten erheben. Habe einen PDA (HTC P3600) mit integriertem GPS. Darauf läuft Windows Mobile 5.0. Welches Open Source Programm ist zu empfehlen, um mit diesem Gerät GPS-Tracks aufzuzeichnen? Was würdet Ihr empfehlen? Vielen Dank im Voraus, Kai -- OpenPGP Key id: 23016BC8 Key fingerprint = FEC3 6C68 44AA C2EE D4EF 99BD 83E1 3353 2301 6BC8 Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x23016BC8 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
Hallo Andreas, danke erstmal für den Hinweis. Ja, GPS-Tuner hab ich auch auf meinem Gerät. Muss sagen, dass ich das eigentlich auch ganz prima finde. Frag mich nur ob es auch eine Open Source Alternative gibt. Viele Grüße, Kai Original-Nachricht Datum: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:11:50 +0200 Von: Andreas Gutowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Openstreetmap allgemeines in Deutsch talk-de@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen?? hallo, ich bin auch relativ neu dabei :-) habe einen pda mit windows mobile 6. am anfang habe ich mit odgps [1] rumprobiert. ist zwar o.k. - hat mir aber nicht ganz so gefallen. ich habe mir dann gps-tuner [2] angeschaut. und das proggi hat mir dann doch besser gefallen. ist kein open-source - kostet 29 euro - ist aber echt sein geld wert. gruss andreas [1] http://www.outdoor-gps.de/ [2] http://www.gpstuner.com/de/ Am Sonntag, den 27.04.2008, 15:02 +0200 schrieb Kai Behncke: Hallo liebe Leute, super Wetter heute und ich würde gerne meine ersten OSM-Daten erheben. Habe einen PDA (HTC P3600) mit integriertem GPS. Darauf läuft Windows Mobile 5.0. Welches Open Source Programm ist zu empfehlen, um mit diesem Gerät GPS-Tracks aufzuzeichnen? Was würdet Ihr empfehlen? Vielen Dank im Voraus, Kai -- OpenPGP Key id: 23016BC8 Key fingerprint = FEC3 6C68 44AA C2EE D4EF 99BD 83E1 3353 2301 6BC8 Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x23016BC8 -- GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen! Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Nokia N8xx/N770 Users: Welche Software?
Mal an alle, die eines der im Betreff genannten Devices besitzt: Welche -OpenStreetMap relevante- Software benutzt ihr und wie benutzt ihr sie? Also ich benutzt Maemo Mapper um Kartenmaterial auf dem Device zu speichern und um neue Wege zu tracken...so seh ich gleich, welche Wege noch fehlen. Uploaden dann direkt vom Gerät aus über Browser-Wlan-Netz. Habe auch schon die Webcam versucht, als Digicam zu missbrauchen um Straßenschilder aufzunehmen, war dann aber, durch die schlechte Qualität bedingt, doch ein Flop. Hatte auch schon die Idee, mit einem der Skizzenprogramme, die Namen in eine, freestyle gemalte, Karte zu kritzeln, ist ganz okay, die Methode... aber auch nicht das Wahre! Weiß sonst jemand ein paar gute Ratschläge, wie man das hübsche Gerät noch besser in OSM einsetzen kann? -- open source for an open mind! use Linux and feel free! - Mein Weblog: http://der-eichi.de Themen unter anderem aus den Bereichen |Politik|, |Linux| und |freie Software| - Mein öffentlicher PGP Schlüssel: http://pgp.der-eichi.de | Leider konnte ich Ihren öffentlichen Schlüssel nicht finden, daher schreibe ich Ihnen | | unverschlüsselt und hoffe, dies ist akzeptabel | ! Freie Alternative zu Google Maps Co.: http://www.openstreetmap.org ! signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
Moin, Hättst du dir mal lieber ein N8xx Nokia Inet Table gekauft ;) Da gibts super software... was nimmst Du da so? Ich hab mit kürzlich so eine Kiste geholt und finde das Teil recht cool. Das Display ist selbst bei Sonnenschein noch ablesbar - ich war ganz baff. Der GPS-Chip scheint mir allerdings etwas schwachbrüstig zu sein. Wie ist Dein Eindruck? Kommen wir zu den Mapping-Applikationen. Es liegt ja dieses Kommerzprogramm bei, das ich nicht unbedingt nutzen möchte. MaemoMapper macht einen guten Eindruck, hat aber den Nachteil dass man sich die unterwegs benötigten Kacheln vorher 'runterladen muss. Navit habe ich mal laufen lassen, aber das hat momentan noch arge Probleme auf der Kiste. Ich muss noch 'rausbekommen, ob ich da was reproduziert bekomme. Mit NaviPOWM kann ich mir momentan keine Karten anzeigen lassen, da muss ich noch mal 'rumspielen, wo es da klemmt. Alles in allem eine feine Auswahl. Was mir noch fehlt ist eine Möglichkeit möglichst komfortabel Wegpunkte setzen zu können (im Optimalfalle mit Sprachaufzeichnung) und das Teil halbwegs geschützt vor Erschütterungen und sonstigen äußeren Einflüssen am Lenker zu befestigen. Beste Grüße, ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] yahoo problem in JOSM
Hallo, Bild laden, manchmal auch öfter, aber unabhängig von der Größe des Bildes wird das Menu meist nach kurzer Zeit grau hinterlegt, so dass man keine weiteren Hintergründe laden kann und ich dann meist JOSM neu starte (was ein bisschen nervt). Gibt's da ne Lösung, oder / und ist das ein Bug? Hab ich neulich auch mal gehabt und noch nicht richtig rausgefunden, woran es liegt, mir scheint aber, wenn man in die Preferences geht und wieder raus, ist das grau zuweilen weg? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] yahoo problem in JOSM
man keine weiteren Hintergründe laden kann und ich dann meist JOSM neu starte (was ein bisschen nervt). Gibt's da ne Lösung, oder / und ist das ein Bug? Hab ich neulich auch mal gehabt und noch nicht richtig rausgefunden, woran es liegt, mir scheint aber, wenn man in die Preferences geht und wieder raus, ist das grau zuweilen weg? das konnte ich leider nicht reproduzieren, habe die Sache mit den Preferences ein paarmal gemacht. Bye Frederik ich habe jetzt mit ein bisschen rumspielen diese Seite in firefox bekommen: -/ YWMS Plugin configuration The configuration of the profile needs some extra modifications of the browser profile: 1. The Javascript method dump must be active. This method allows Javascrip code to write data to the output stream of the browser, and can be activated with the config option browser.dom.window.dump.enabled. 2. Session recovery must be inactive Session crash recovery will try to reopen the pages you were viewing before a browser crash, but for this JOSM plugin, this feature is not useful. This feature can be deactivated with the config option browser.sessionstore.resume_from_crash These configuration properties can be modified automatically just clicking in the button below, that will ask for permissions to do so. Just accept to allow the modifications. /- ich habe es mal erlaubt, aber jetzt muss ich wohl trotzdem JOSM neustarten, es ist immer noch grau. Sieht ja so aus, als wäre es browser-abhängig. Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Update: POI Control
Hi, Echt eine nette Idee, ich habe sie gerade mal umgesetzt. Hier ein Beispiel-Link: http://www.lenz-online.de/osm?lat=55.75lon=37.62zoom=15poi=amenity+place_of_worship,amenity+pub,tourism+hotel Ich denke, der Syntax wird klar. Cool! Kann es sein, daß das suchen (bzw Enter) nicht geht, wenn man von der Seite auf die OSM-Ansicht umgeschaltet hat? -- Ciao, Holger (GUS-KOTAL, GUS#1100, GRR#51) 90-92 Honda CB400 10 Mm | 93-95 Yamaha TDM 850 26 Mm 95-97 KTM 620 LC4 13 Mm | seit 97 BMW R1100GS 69 Mm (Die Renndrecksau!) cu @ http://www.issle.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Software um GPS-Trecks aufzuzeichnen??
Moin, p.s. hab gerade hier in der mailingliste genau zu diesem Thema (apps unter nxxx) eine thread gestartet ;) ja zu spät gesehen :) . Cheers, ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Donnerstag 24 April 2008 schrieb Sven Rautenberg: Guenther Meyer schrieb: aber wirklich wichtig ist die angabe der oeffnungszeiten fuer dinge wie tankstellen, apotheken, restaurants und andere dienstleister, wo man den besuch in der regel nicht vorher plant, sondern deren dienste meist spontan wuenscht. Wie willst du das denn z.B. bei Apotheken hinkriegen? Apotheken haben erstens normale Ladenöffnungszeiten. Also z.B. Montags bis Samstags von 9 bis 18 Uhr. Was ist mit Mittagspause? Soll ja vorkommen. Was ist mit Feiertagen? Vgl. auch Restaurants an diesen Tagen. Und wie kriegst du den Notdienstplan einer einzelnen Apotheke erfaßt? Nein, in der Summe wird das simple Thema Öffnungszeiten, weil es global, zumindest national behandelt werden muß, so komplex, dass man es nicht mehr in das simple Tagging-Schema von OSM reinpressen kann. ich habe nie behauptet, dass das ein simples thema ist! in das tagging-schema von osm laesst sich so ziemlich alles reinpressen, es stellt sich nur die frage, wie sinnvoll das dann ist. ein schema fuer oeffnungszeiten ist durchaus sinnvoll. man muesste sich nur mal zusammensetzen, und was sinnvolles ausarbeiten. Und ich glaube auch, dass wir hier mal ganz deutlich Abgrenzung betreiben sollten, genauso wie die Wikipedia auch. Es kommt halt nicht drauf an, ob eine x-beliebige Information irgendwem offline mobil nützlich sein könnte, sondern ob diese Information in das Themengebiet dieses Projektes paßt. richtig. alles muss nicht rein, eine abgrenzung ist schon wichtig. aber oeffnungszeiten gehoeren fuer mich dazu. warum werden in osm alle moeglichen POIs verzeichnet? weil man sie finden will, und zwar ueber seine position. wenn ich nun in osm ein restaurant suche und auch finde, hinfahre, und die haben dummerweise grade ruhetag, dann war fuer mich die information praktisch wertlos. ein POI der nicht das bietet, was man von ihm erwartet, ist praktisch nicht existent. bei bekannten oeffnungszeiten waere das nicht passiert. Ansonsten gibts irgendwann noch komplette enzyklopädische Artikel zu jedem getaggten Baum neben der Landstraße, inklusive Liste der Fahrer, die sich schon im denselben gewickelt haben. naja, wenn's was interessantes zu dem baum zu sagen gibt, warum nicht ;-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
On Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:0355PM +0200, Guenther Meyer wrote: Am Donnerstag 24 April 2008 schrieb Sven Rautenberg: Guenther Meyer schrieb: aber wirklich wichtig ist die angabe der oeffnungszeiten fuer dinge wie tankstellen, apotheken, restaurants und andere dienstleister, wo man den besuch in der regel nicht vorher plant, sondern deren dienste meist spontan wuenscht. Wie willst du das denn z.B. bei Apotheken hinkriegen? Apotheken haben erstens normale Ladenöffnungszeiten. Also z.B. Montags bis Samstags von 9 bis 18 Uhr. Was ist mit Mittagspause? Soll ja vorkommen. Was ist mit Feiertagen? Vgl. auch Restaurants an diesen Tagen. Und wie kriegst du den Notdienstplan einer einzelnen Apotheke erfaßt? Nein, in der Summe wird das simple Thema Öffnungszeiten, weil es global, zumindest national behandelt werden muß, so komplex, dass man es nicht mehr in das simple Tagging-Schema von OSM reinpressen kann. ich habe nie behauptet, dass das ein simples thema ist! in das tagging-schema von osm laesst sich so ziemlich alles reinpressen, es stellt sich nur die frage, wie sinnvoll das dann ist. ein schema fuer oeffnungszeiten ist durchaus sinnvoll. man muesste sich nur mal zusammensetzen, und was sinnvolles ausarbeiten. Genau hier sehe ich eben die Probleme: erstens sollten die Oeffnungszeiten wenn schon denn schon maschinenauswertbar sein und nicht nur fuer Menschen lesbar sein. Zweitens kann ich mir beliebig komplexe Oeffnungszeiten vorstellen (Beispiele: laengere Oeffnungszeiten in den Schulferien und an Feiertagen; Geoeffnet von Ostern bis Ende Oktober; Geoeffnet Donnerstags bis Sonntags, und den Tag vor Feiertagen; das unterschiedliche Handling von 'halben Feiertagen' (24.12., 31.12.) nicht ausser acht lassen) Sicherlich ist das ein Problem mit dem auch ein anderes Projekt zu kaempfen haben wird, wenn es sich nur auf diese Daten konzentriert, aber: die koennen ihre Datenstrukturen dann gleich mit diesem Ziel entwerfen und muessen nicht mit dem Key/Value-Schema auskommen, auf das uns die OSM-Datenbank beschraenkt. Und ich glaube auch, dass wir hier mal ganz deutlich Abgrenzddung betreiben sollten, genauso wie die Wikipedia auch. Es kommt halt nicht drauf an, ob eine x-beliebige Information irgendwem offline mobil nützlich sein könnte, sondern ob diese Information in das Themengebiet dieses Projektes paßt. richtig. alles muss nicht rein, eine abgrenzung ist schon wichtig. aber oeffnungszeiten gehoeren fuer mich dazu. warum werden in osm alle moeglichen POIs verzeichnet? weil man sie finden will, und zwar ueber seine position. wenn ich nun in osm ein restaurant suche und auch finde, hinfahre, und die haben dummerweise grade ruhetag, dann war fuer mich die information praktisch wertlos. ein POI der nicht das bietet, was man von ihm erwartet, ist praktisch nicht existent. bei bekannten oeffnungszeiten waere das nicht passiert. Hast du dir auch mal Gedanken darueber gemacht, welchen Aufwand es bedeuten wird, diese Daten flaechendeckend aktuell zu halten? Ich finde, nichts ist schlimmer als alte Daten zu haben, und die Information fuer dein Restaurant ist auch dann fuer die wertlos, wenns die Oeffnungszeiten vom letzten Jahr waren. Das aktualisieren der Oeffnungszeiten halte ich fuer deutlich aufwaendiger als das regelmaessige Pruefen und aktualieren der anderen Kartendaten, inkl. der Geschaefte etc.: hier kann man naemlich beispielsweise Aenderungen mitbekommen alleine beim Vorbeifahren. Man bemerkt beispielsweise Strassenbauarbeiten, sieht ein neues Schild ueber einem Ladenlokal, sieht, wie ein neuer Supermarkt hochgezogen wird. Fuer die Oeffnungszeiten muss man zu jedem einzelnen Laden hingehen und das kleine Schild an der Tuer anschauen. Und ueberleg dir bitte auch, wie das in Gegenden passiert in denen kein Mapper regelmaessig hinkommt. Unser Anspruch sollte sein, dass wir flaechendeckende, aktuelle Informationen bereitstellen, und nicht die Informationen vom letzten Jahr oder von vor fuenf Jahren. Richtig, dieses Problem der Datenpflege existiert auch fuer alle anderen Daten bei OSM, aber ich finde, wir sollten uns hier nicht eine Buerde selbst auferlegen, die an anderer Stelle besser gemacht werden koennte. Das Erfassen von Oeffnungszeiten und anderer relevanter Informationen fuer POIs ist eine derartige Buerde. Hier ist fuer mich die Grenze: Oeffnungszeiten haben mit den Kartendaten nichts mehr zu tun. Das hat nichts mehr damit zu tun, frei verfuegbare Kartendaten fuer jedermann zur Verfuegung zu stellen. Diese Informationen wie auch viele andere durchaus sinnvolle Daten sind bereits oeffentlich verfuegbar, in einer Datenbank namens World Wide Web. [1] Zugegeben, die Suche dort ist nicht immer einfach, und nicht alles dort ist erfasst, aber bitte: lass uns kein zweites World Wide Web bauen, sondern das ganze besser zu organisieren: Es gibt verschiedene Projekte, die sich um einzelne Teilaufgaben kuemmern. Wikipedia will
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Montag 28 April 2008 schrieb Michael Bergbauer: ein schema fuer oeffnungszeiten ist durchaus sinnvoll. man muesste sich nur mal zusammensetzen, und was sinnvolles ausarbeiten. Genau hier sehe ich eben die Probleme: erstens sollten die Oeffnungszeiten wenn schon denn schon maschinenauswertbar sein und nicht nur fuer Menschen lesbar sein. Zweitens kann ich mir beliebig komplexe Oeffnungszeiten vorstellen (Beispiele: laengere Oeffnungszeiten in den Schulferien und an Feiertagen; Geoeffnet von Ostern bis Ende Oktober; Geoeffnet Donnerstags bis Sonntags, und den Tag vor Feiertagen; das unterschiedliche Handling von 'halben Feiertagen' (24.12., 31.12.) nicht ausser acht lassen) Sicherlich ist das ein Problem mit dem auch ein anderes Projekt zu kaempfen haben wird, wenn es sich nur auf diese Daten konzentriert, aber: die koennen ihre Datenstrukturen dann gleich mit diesem Ziel entwerfen und muessen nicht mit dem Key/Value-Schema auskommen, auf das uns die OSM-Datenbank beschraenkt. grade durch die offenheit unseres schemas, laesst sich das machen, man muss nur das tagging richtig anlegen. und wesentlich mehr als key/value wird auch ein anderes projekt im prinzip nicht machen, bzw. man kann fast alles darauf reduzieren, falls noetig. richtig. alles muss nicht rein, eine abgrenzung ist schon wichtig. aber oeffnungszeiten gehoeren fuer mich dazu. warum werden in osm alle moeglichen POIs verzeichnet? weil man sie finden will, und zwar ueber seine position. wenn ich nun in osm ein restaurant suche und auch finde, hinfahre, und die haben dummerweise grade ruhetag, dann war fuer mich die information praktisch wertlos. ein POI der nicht das bietet, was man von ihm erwartet, ist praktisch nicht existent. bei bekannten oeffnungszeiten waere das nicht passiert. Hast du dir auch mal Gedanken darueber gemacht, welchen Aufwand es bedeuten wird, diese Daten flaechendeckend aktuell zu halten? Ich finde, nichts ist schlimmer als alte Daten zu haben, und die Information fuer dein Restaurant ist auch dann fuer die wertlos, wenns die Oeffnungszeiten vom letzten Jahr waren. Das aktualisieren der Oeffnungszeiten halte ich fuer deutlich aufwaendiger als das regelmaessige Pruefen und aktualieren der anderen Kartendaten, inkl. der Geschaefte etc.: das problem hast du wie gesagt fuer alle daten. grade laendliche gegenden werden da immer etwas nachhaengen... und schliesslich hat jeder node einen timestamp, da kann man sich ja dann denken, dass die angabe vielleicht nicht mehr stimmt, wenn die letzte aenderung vor zwei jahren war... Hier ist fuer mich die Grenze: Oeffnungszeiten haben mit den Kartendaten nichts mehr zu tun. Das hat nichts mehr damit zu tun, frei verfuegbare Kartendaten fuer jedermann zur Verfuegung zu stellen. fuer mich gehoert sowas dazu. jeder hat so seine prioritaeten fuer dieses projekt, das ist ja grad das interessante daran... naja, wenn's was interessantes zu dem baum zu sagen gibt, warum nicht ;-) Der Unterschied zwischen Ich tagge einen besonderen Baum resp. Ich schreib einen enzyklopaedischen Artiken zu einem besonderen Baum und ich tagge alle Baeume resp. ich schreibe Artikel zu allen Baeumen ist dir schon bewusst. oh, ich hab wohl die ironie-tags vergessen... ;-) [1] Ja, ich weiss, das Argument Aber ich habe nicht immer Zugriff auf das Internet, wohl aber auf mein Navi. Der Trend geht vermutlich zum Always-Online sein. Und wieviele Navis gibts aktuell, die mit POI-Oeffnungszeiten umgehen koennen? wieviele navis gibts, die fussgaenger-routing bieten? wieviele navis gibts, die mit freien daten routen? ... ... sowas ist kein argument. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Montag 28 April 2008 schrieb Frederik Ramm: Und was die Computerlesbarkeit betrifft - bitte bloss nicht damit anfangen, ein allgemeines Schema zur Modellierung beliebiger Oeffnungszeitenschemata zu erfinden, dann koennt ihr euch gleich beim OGC bewerben ;-) eine einfache Textzeile reicht, unsere Computer und deren Programmierer sind gut genug, um z.B. sowas wie Mo-Fr 8:00-19:00 zu erkennen und zu parsen - und was komplizierter ist, wird dann halt dem Benutzer zur Pruefung vorgelegt. naja, wenn man schon ueberlegt, sowas einzupflegen, sollte man von anfang an ueberlegen, wie man das am besten macht. auch kann die menschenlesbarkeit zugunsten der maschinenlesbarkeit durchaus etwas in den hintergrund treten, falls noetig. sonst parst man sich naemlich dumm und bloed... die editoren sollten sowieso die tags etwas abstrahieren; fuer viele user ist das teilweise jetzt schon zu kompliziert... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-GB] OS costs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/25/charles.arthur Best Steve ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-gb
