date:20090702

Am Donnerstag 02 Juli 2009 schrieb Marcus Wolschon:
 Guys... what could it hurt to set up an ipv6.openstreetmap.org
 with only an  -record or with  and A -records pointing at
 the 6to4 -address associated with the current IPv4-addresse(s)
 to let users and admins experiment without causing any issues
 with the openstreetmap.org -name?

 It is automatically anycast-routed to the nearest 6to4 -server.
 Probably at the ISP, if not then at the nearest IX and it DOES
 work for the network-load of real servers every day.


This is a bad idea. Do it right or do it not.

6to4,Isatap and other tunnels are for stupid clients but not for servers.


Thomas

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Re: [OSM-talk] passive user inputs


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Peter Dörrie peter.doer...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Well they could also used against OSM. If people start
 using theirs car-gps output for this and don't bother to
 switch of the snap-to-road feature (and many won't), we
 are in trouble.

Yes, but the context here is home brew GPS. Snap to road features either don't 
exist, or the output from the GPS itself would be raw information, not snap to 
road info.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

2009-07-02 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Thomas Schäfer wrote:
 This is a bad idea. Do it right or do it not.

... has never been OSM's attitude so far, so why change now. Honestly, I 
get the feeling you're on a personal crusade here for doing things 
right which is of no relevance to most of us. You might as well tell us 
that we must switch all our servers to 100% CO2 neutral operation, or 
make sure that we have as many women mappers as men, or make sure that 
all our services are accessible for people with visual impairments. 
Noble goals all of them. Let's tackle the women issue first, and do IPv6 
later.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

Am Donnerstag 02 Juli 2009 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 Hi,

 Claudius wrote:
  There are not enough IPv4 adresses for Africa and Latin America already
  which is why they are assigning IPv6 only already. Now with the new east
  african internet cable this might lead to even more IPv6 users in
  potential OSM countries, but... all those IPv6 users cannot reach IPv4
  only servers.

 This is an honest question because I really have not researched the
 matter: Are there *real* people in developing countries whom one might
 consider potential mappers who buy Internet access and get IPv6 only
 with no HTTP access to IPv4 only servers? Would not any provider who
 cannot offer IPV4 addresses be forced to set up easy-to-use proxy or
 masquerading systems?

It is not only the developing countries. Also mobile-ISP in Europe torture 
their custumers with NAT, Proxies and so on because of the lack of ipv4 
addresses.

ipv6-providers have solutions for ipv4-connectivity,otherwise they had no 
chance to introduce ipv6.


 (Can they even reach ebay, amazon, cnn, twitter and the lot then?)

They can reach the old world - with additional expenses at the network-side.


 Or is this something rather hypothetical, much like it would
 theoretically be possible to set up an IPv6-only dialup in Germany if
 you really, really wanted?

 I'm trying to find out if IPv6 is something that is pragmatically
 required, or if this is rather something ideology-based - I read a lot
 of should in Thomas's statements. My opinion is that if we have reason

OSM is a community-project. Therefore I say should. At work I am the chief 
regarding my part of the network - there is it a must.


 to believe that, for the forseeable future, even those IPv6-only
 machines that might exist somewhere will have an effortless way to
 connect to the IPv4 world (and the only thing to be said against this is
 that it is technically uncool), then I would not waste a minute trying
 to be cool. But if there are real-world situations where people who can
 use the rest of the internet normally turn away from OSM because we
 don't talk to them, then we should act.

Theres is more effort to connect ipv6-only-hosts/nat-ed/proxy-ed Hosts to ipv4 
than for us to enable ipv6.


 It is probably a moot point anyway because, as someone else pointed out,
 either UCL does it or they don't and we would be the last ones to raise
 a fuss with them over anything.

You don't want realize. I have to accept that. 

Sorry.


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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

  This is a bad idea. Do it right or do it not.
 
 ... has never been OSM's attitude so far, so why change
 now. Honestly, I 

Judging by my experience, there will be most likely be between 0.01% and 1% 
IPv6 traffic v IPv4 traffic, this of course will depend entirely on the regions 
most users are in. I don't see any issue in using a tunnel for this kind of 
thing since the volume of traffic is usually so low.

 get the feeling you're on a personal crusade here for

I get that feeling too, I'm all for IPv6 adoption, and have been hassling 
various upstream carriers at different times, some of which have added services 
quietly and not bothered to inform me. It sucks when people turn things into a 
religious issue and go off on their high horses how everything should be done 
perfectly.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

Frederik Ramm schrieb am Donnerstag 02 Juli 2009:
 Hi,

 Thomas Schäfer wrote:
  This is a bad idea. Do it right or do it not.

 ... has never been OSM's attitude so far, so why change now. Honestly, I
 get the feeling you're on a personal crusade here for doing things
 right which is of no relevance to most of us. You might as well tell us
 that we must switch all our servers to 100% CO2 neutral operation, or
 make sure that we have as many women mappers as men, or make sure that
 all our services are accessible for people with visual impairments.
 Noble goals all of them. Let's tackle the women issue first, and do IPv6
 later.

 Bye
 Frederik

If you don't understand real network issues, than don't make me look silly.

Of course, you can starting to solve the other problems you mentioned. I am 
not an expert in climate, CO2 or braille-terminals. Also I don't know how to 
increase the woman acceptance factor. But I know what is necessary to keep 
running the internet. May be i am not very patient.


Regards

Thomas Schäfer




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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

Am Donnerstag 02 Juli 2009 schrieb John Smith:

  get the feeling you're on a personal crusade here for

 It sucks when people turn
 things into a religious issue and go off on their high horses how
 everything should be done perfectly.

Your horse isn't high?

Thomas


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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Thomas Schäfer tschae...@t-online.de wrote:

 Your horse isn't high?

I prefer soap boxes personally, they don't tend to shy ;)


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

2009-07-02 Thread Ken Guest

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:17 AM, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:


 --- On Thu, 2/7/09, Thomas Schäfer tschae...@t-online.de wrote:

  Your horse isn't high?

 I prefer soap boxes personally, they don't tend to shy ;)




or kick...

:(

k.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

Am Donnerstag 02 Juli 2009 schrieb Tom Hughes:

 We (the admins) are all well aware of this. I personally have had IPv6
 on my home network for some years now.

That is nice.


 There are reasons why this is not as simple as it sounds. I know that
 sounds a bit cryptic but please believe me when I say it is complicated.

I don't.

 There is a reason they only do it for selected networks (and believe me
 when I say that getting on the list is hard even if you want to). The
 main reason is that something like 0.1% of people on the internet at
 large will find themselves unable to connect at all if you just add an
  record globally at the present time. Those number's are from the
 research Google conducted by running an experiment on their home page:

This are excuses from people fearing to lose one promille of the   volume of 
sales.


I thank you  for your the  factual an honest answer.

I will finish my  rebellion for now.

But be sure, I will ask again.


Best regards,

Thomas Schäfer







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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Richard Fairhurst


Frederik Ramm wrote:
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in 
 one central place and allow users to do only what you have coded; 
 instead open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the 
 user interface to offer functionality.

I'd kind of taken that as read - if you're going to have a REST API for it,
then of course there's going to be read as well as write operations. Just as
with the rest of OSM.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/The-future-of-bugs-in-OSM-tp24290706p24303254.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Dair Grant

Frederik Ramm wrote:

 And if the user indicates that he just wants to add a PoI, redirect him to
 http://ae.osmsurround.org/ so that he can add it directly to the database.
 
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in one central
 place and allow users to do only what you have coded; instead open this up so
 that anybody can hook their app into the user interface to offer
 functionality.

Is the bugs database really so different in character to the map database
though? Provided there was a planet-style dump of the bug database, anyone
wishing to build an external system could easily do so.

It's true that lat/lon/text wouldn't be sufficient for all bugs, but how
many would that model work for - 75% or more?

Most bugs are either for a specific location (name is wrong, street is
missing, etc), or a fairly well defined area (all the footpaths in this park
need doing, there's a place=hamlet|village|etc node but there's no ways
within 5km of it).

There are meta-bugs too (are imported political boundaries really in the
correct place, is a blank area of the map really blank or just unmapped?),
but how best to track them will depend on what they are (so you might as
well collect a few examples and look for patterns first).


Worst-case you could simply use a lat/lon/text entry as a link to some
external tracker until such time as its model could be supported (either
directly, or by better integration with external trackers - although I would
hope the former).

But however it works behind the scenes, it gives you one place that bug
reporting/visualisation can coalesce around - you go to www.* to see the
map, wiki.* to see the wiki, and bugs.* for bugs.


-dair
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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Frederik Ramm wrote:
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in 
 one central place and allow users to do only what you have coded; 
 instead open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the 
 user interface to offer functionality.
 
 I'd kind of taken that as read - if you're going to have a REST API for it,
 then of course there's going to be read as well as write operations. Just as
 with the rest of OSM.

If Steve's intention is to set up something without any user interface, 
just a clearinghouse for machines to dump their data and other machines 
to access them, then you are right.

If the plan is to create something that actually interfaces with humans 
who want to check their area for bugs, then what you would need is 
something where an application can not only upload the bug to the 
clearinghouse but also say something like: And please if someone views 
that bug, offer them the following link that leads back to my 
application so the user can use my cool functionality which I have 
implemented in MUMPS for assisted bug fixing, or even click that link 
to be directed to the application which created this bug to read more 
about it.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Dair Grant wrote:
 Is the bugs database really so different in character to the map database
 though? Provided there was a planet-style dump of the bug database, anyone
 wishing to build an external system could easily do so.

As I tried to point out in my other message, if there is to be a central 
interface then this is not so.

We have this situation now - while anyone can set up their own slippy 
map of course, the normal thing for people to do is to go to 
openstreetmap.org where their choice of what they can do with the data 
is limited by what TomH puts on there and what others have coded - a 
Data layer, the Potlatch editor, maybe the external Cycle map - but we 
do not have an infrastructure that allows third party apps to tie in.

With the multitude of bug applications that currently exist, no 
application can do it all, but each has a chance to offer to the user 
specific functionality that is *not* limited to just finding and 
flagging the bug, but also means presenting the bug in a specific way or 
even offer help in fixing it.

This is something that must not be lost. Yes, any application can upload 
their bug via the REST interface, but they can hardly upload an 
algorithm on how to deal with the bug. So in order not to lose the 
flexibility of the ecosystem we currently have, we should make an effort 
to tie in all that coder creativity out there, rather than saying do it 
in Rails and check in in to SVN, and I might perhaps run it on the 
central web site if I like it.

That's my whole point. Many many words for a small concept.

(Matt I'll try to be on IRC tonight. Quite busy right now.)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Ensuring Cyclewyays/Footways are routable?

2009-07-02 Thread Tobias Knerr

 Both foot and cycle routes take a long way around (car goes even further
 thought an 'access=bus' section).

access=bus? That tag doesn't match the usual vehicletype=usageright
structure, so why would you expect it to be recognized?

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Tom Hughes

Frederik Ramm wrote:

 This is something that must not be lost. Yes, any application can upload 
 their bug via the REST interface, but they can hardly upload an 
 algorithm on how to deal with the bug. So in order not to lose the 
 flexibility of the ecosystem we currently have, we should make an effort 
 to tie in all that coder creativity out there, rather than saying do it 
 in Rails and check in in to SVN, and I might perhaps run it on the 
 central web site if I like it.

I don't understand why you think the application that reports the bug 
should dictate how it will be fixed.

Surely the job of the person or application that reports the bug is just 
to document the problem. It's up to the person that decides to deal with 
it to decide what to do about it and what application they want to use 
to fix it.

Tom

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http://www.compton.nu/

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[OSM-talk] Accessibility

2009-07-02 Thread Lulu-Ann

Hello list,

there is a new mailing list available for OSM.

The topic is accessibility.

It will be discussed...

* How to create non visual maps for the blind and visual impaired
* New tags that allow to map objects of special interest for disabled persons
* New maps that contain information about barriers like steps for wheelchair 
users
* Special routing, like wheelchair routing or pedestrian routing for the blind
* New maps that contain worthful information like theatres with subtitles for 
the deaf or braille writing signs or acoustic traffic lights for the blind
* Data exchange to the navigation tool Loadstone-GPS for the blind
... and whatever you think fits to the subject.

Subscribe here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/accessibility

I will be at the State of the Map, you can meet me there. Mail me or use my 
email address to contact me on skype.

Please forward this information to your disabled or interested friends.

CU in Amsterdam
Lulu-Ann
-- 
Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

2009-07-02 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie

Thomas Schäfer schrieb:

 It is probably a moot point anyway because, as someone else pointed out,
 either UCL does it or they don't and we would be the last ones to raise
 a fuss with them over anything.
 
 You don't want realize. I have to accept that. 
 
 Sorry.

OSM is largely a meritocracy (or do-ocracy as someone put it) so, if you
can do it without having to pester UCL staff, do it.
I gather there are a lot of ways you can do IPv6 without your immediate
ISP supporting it (SixXs tunnel for example).
So I suggest you plan something out, ask the necessary questions
yourself and I guess OSM will use IPv6 in no time.

-- 

Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie
Bremen - 53.0901°N 8.7868°E



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Re: [OSM-talk] Ensuring Cyclewyays/Footways are routable?

2009-07-02 Thread Shaun McDonald

On 2 Jul 2009, at 00:54, si...@mungewell.org wrote:

I had a little play with Cloudmade's routing stuff and it wasn't quite
working for me.

http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=51.103306lng=-114.079413zoom=15directions=51.10050375773113,-114.0750789642334,51.10594712658125,-114.08280372619629travel=footstyleId=3697

Both foot and cycle routes take a long way around (car goes even
further

thought an 'access=bus' section).

The data looks good. The car route probably is using the faster route
due to the secondary roads.

How often is the route database updated? Cycle way through path was
last

edited around the 19th June, but is not used in the route.

It is normally updated weekly. We are currently using data from
2009-06-17.

Also in realality the park is also routeable, one could just walk up
Trafford Ave and over a bit of grass. Is it possible to tag so this
can

happen?

You need to add a footpath over the grass. You can only route where
there is connectivity, or there is bad data.

And on this one, it routes the bike slightly further:
http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=51.118516lng=-114.048493zoom=16directions=51.11576782135306,-114.04864311218262,51.12080533765644,-114.04978036880493travel=bicyclestyleId=1714

If the start/end points are moved slightly it permits foot/cycles to
go

both ways so it's not a tagging thing. What's going on?

It will be a combination of the weightings of the types of road, and
the distance.

Shaun

Cheers,
Mungewell.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Ensuring Cyclewyays/Footways are routable?

2009-07-02 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2009/7/2 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
 Both foot and cycle routes take a long way around (car goes even further
 thought an 'access=bus' section).

 access=bus? That tag doesn't match the usual vehicletype=usageright
 structure, so why would you expect it to be recognized?


you could take psv=yes or psv=designated into account instead of access=bus.

cheers
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread SteveC


On 1 Jul 2009, at 19:58, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,

 SteveC wrote:
 But, and this is key, it also has a RESTful API for mass uploading  
 of  bugs.
 We need to do two things - unify the various bug systems and  
 expose  more of the bugs.

 I believe that the types of bugs one can look for are quite  
 different. You'd have to build a very good system if it is to be  
 able to capture all kinds of bugs - don't think that simply having  
 something like lat/lon/text is enough, because some bugs might be  
 relevant for a whole area, or you might have a two nearby streets  
 share the same name bug which points to two ways rather than one  
 location, etc etc

How about we borrow tags from OSM? Bugs have lat,lng,text and keyvals?  
What you think?

They main thing I want to say though - is lets just build something  
simple and iterate. Absolutle minimum feature set is a RESTful API  
plus a OSB-like interface.

 Not saying it can't be done but if you want to replace the various  
 bug systems then you need to be able to do what they can do or it is  
 a step backwards.

 I'm also wary of the centralistic let's set up a database and have  
 everyone upload their data to us approach. Maybe keeping true to  
 your clearinghouse idea the central service should *only* know  
 that there is some other service that has found a bug in a certain  
 location, and when the user wants to know more, the other service is  
 interrogated through an API. The other service might, for example,  
 guide the user through an automatic fixing process for certain types  
 of bugs, or offer things like find similar bugs in the vicinity or  
 so. Plus, every coder could contribute to something like that in the  
 language(s) he prefers, and without having to ask for his  
 functionality to be included in some central service.

Yeah so if you want it to just also aggregate things like keepright or  
OSB, it's easy to write things to do that, so long as they have APIs.

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread SteveC


On 1 Jul 2009, at 21:15, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,

 Nic Roets wrote:
 And if the user indicates that he just wants to add a PoI, redirect  
 him to
 http://ae.osmsurround.org/ so that he can add it directly to the  
 database.

 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in  
 one central place and allow users to do only what you have coded;  
 instead open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the  
 user interface to offer functionality.

Yeah - that's what a trivial API would do I think. an OSB-like  
interface would be one way, JOSM could talk to the API too, so could  
potlatch (no Richard, no special weird binary protocols)... and so on.

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread SteveC

On 2 Jul 2009, at 11:19, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,

 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Frederik Ramm wrote:
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in
 one central place and allow users to do only what you have coded;
 instead open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the
 user interface to offer functionality.

 I'd kind of taken that as read - if you're going to have a REST API  
 for it,
 then of course there's going to be read as well as write  
 operations. Just as
 with the rest of OSM.

 If Steve's intention is to set up something without any user  
 interface,
 just a clearinghouse for machines to dump their data and other  
 machines
 to access them, then you are right.

 If the plan is to create something that actually interfaces with  
 humans
 who want to check their area for bugs, then what you would need is
 something where an application can not only upload the bug to the
 clearinghouse but also say something like: And please if someone  
 views
 that bug, offer them the following link that leads back to my
 application so the user can use my cool functionality which I have
 implemented in MUMPS for assisted bug fixing, or even click that  
 link
 to be directed to the application which created this bug to read more
 about it.

That could just be a tag that we agree on?

application=mumps
url=mumps.blah.com/bug/3737347373

or something?

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Christoph Boehme

Hi,

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Nic Roets wrote:
 And if the user indicates that he just wants to add a PoI, redirect him to
 http://ae.osmsurround.org/ so that he can add it directly to the database.
 
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in one 
 central place and allow users to do only what you have coded; instead 
 open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the user interface 
 to offer functionality.

I don't quite understand how http://ae.osmsurround.org/ fits into the 
bug-tracker idea. The amenity editor is an osm data editor that works 
directly on the osm database. It does not create a special type of 
amentiy bugs that need to be distributed.

I could see that it makes sense to be able to add bugs to the map while 
editing amenities but this is functionality which can easily be done 
with the current osb.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Christoph Böhme

SteveC wrote:
 On 1 Jul 2009, at 19:58, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,
 SteveC wrote:
 But, and this is key, it also has a RESTful API for mass uploading  
of  bugs.
 We need to do two things - unify the various bug systems and   expose 
more of the bugs.
 I believe that the types of bugs one can look for are quite
 different. You'd have to build a very good system if it is to be   able
to capture all kinds of bugs - don't think that simply having  
something like lat/lon/text is enough, because some bugs might be  
relevant for a whole area, or you might have a two nearby streets  
share the same name bug which points to two ways rather than one  
location, etc etc

 How about we borrow tags from OSM? Bugs have lat,lng,text and keyvals?  
What you think?
 They main thing I want to say though - is lets just build something  
simple and iterate. Absolutle minimum feature set is a RESTful API  
plus a OSB-like interface.

After the last discussion about an improved OSB, I had a go at building a
system that had tags, file uploads and could also handle different 
geometries of errors (basically a Swiss Army knife for osm metadata). This
system never reached a point were it became  usable. However, I learned a
couple of things while programming it:

For bug-*tracking* you need to have a history of changes made to a bug. 
While for some tags only the current value is relevant (e.g. a status tag)
for others each version of the tag is important (e.g. if comments are
implemented with tags). Since the server is agnostic about the meaning of
tags all semantic knowledge need to be implemented in the clients. This
makes client implementations quite complex. Also searching for bugs
becomes a task of its own as you need something like XAPI or O3S to build
queries unless you want to filter the bugs on the client-side.

I also realised during the develeopment that tags are a concept which is
very similar to the fields/columns in a database. Their advantage over
fields is that each object can have a different set of tags and that the
database does not need to be changed to add new tags. The disadvantage is
that the database has no knowledge on how to handle the data and that
clients cannot make many assumptions about the data that is available for
an object.

In the osm database the flexibility offered by tags is need because every
mapper needs to add new types of objects and tags quite regularly. However
IMHO the situation is a bit different in a bug tracker: First, the range
of different object types is much smaller as bugs are not that different
from each other. Second, the server needs to know about the information it
holds in order to search it properly. And third, users are probably not
going to manually add tags to bugs, only developers of bug tracking
application might want to add additional information to a bug.

To conclude: IMO tags can be a nice add-on to allow applications to
provide additional data for a bug the basic stuff should be managed in a
normal database in order to allow easy client implementations. After all
its just a bug tracker which should people tell where the OSM data needs
improvements. If you want to do something completely different you can
always set-up a database and build another tool. And this might be easier
in the end than using an extremely flexible bug tracker.

I might not be seeing the bigger picture here, but my experiences with my
bug tracker idea led me to the conclusion that a restricted tool might
do a better job than something very flexible.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [OSM-talk] The future of bugs in OSM

2009-07-02 Thread Jonas Krückel

Christoph Boehme schrieb:
 Hi,

 Frederik Ramm wrote:
   
 Nic Roets wrote:
 
 And if the user indicates that he just wants to add a PoI, redirect him to
 http://ae.osmsurround.org/ so that he can add it directly to the database.
   
 That's the point I was trying to make - do not hog all the bugs in one 
 central place and allow users to do only what you have coded; instead 
 open this up so that anybody can hook their app into the user interface 
 to offer functionality.
 

 I don't quite understand how http://ae.osmsurround.org/ fits into the 
 bug-tracker idea. The amenity editor is an osm data editor that works 
 directly on the osm database. It does not create a special type of 
 amentiy bugs that need to be distributed.

 I could see that it makes sense to be able to add bugs to the map while 
 editing amenities but this is functionality which can easily be done 
 with the current osb.
   
I think the idea is, if you have a bug saying POI=xy missing, than the 
bugwebsite (it must not be bugs.osm.org) could provide you a link to the 
amenity editor for fixing it directly.
Personally I think we should try to make a good API with a database 
behind it and should try to have the different functionalities made by 
different client-developers (i would say you can compare this with 
twitter, the original webinterface doesn't provide very much options, 
but with the api we see a lot of cool twitterclients adding all kind of 
functionalities and they also integrate with other services (facebook 
etc., in our case this would be JOSM..) very often.
Of course we should also add a bug-tab to the website then, but the API 
and the database is the most important thing.

Jonas


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[OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Rory McCann

Hi all,

A team has formed amoung the Ubuntu community to help make Ubuntu work
well for NGOs (Non-Govermental Organisations, aka charities) [1] [2]. I
myself have done some volunteer work sending ubuntu computers to Africa
with Camara [3]. One problem with many places in the developing world is
non-existant or poor internet bandwidth. Many people have made an
Offline Wikipedia, Camara has done and it has been very successful.

It occured to me that having good free offline maps would also be very
valuable, i.e. an offline OpenStreetMap.

Has anyone done this with OSM?

If not, it should be easy enough to generate and create a CD, which
leads me to my next question. Approximatly how big are all the map
tiles? I doubt you'd fit the whole planet on a DVD. There might be ways
to make it simplified, less zoom levels, black  white vs colour,
restricted area, etc.


Thanks

Rory


 [1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO
 [2]: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo
 [3]: http://camara.ie/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

 Hi all,

 A team has formed amoung the Ubuntu community to help make Ubuntu work
 well for NGOs (Non-Govermental Organisations, aka charities) [1] [2]. I
 myself have done some volunteer work sending ubuntu computers to Africa
 with Camara [3]. One problem with many places in the developing world is
 non-existant or poor internet bandwidth. Many people have made an
 Offline Wikipedia, Camara has done and it has been very successful.

 It occured to me that having good free offline maps would also be very
 valuable, i.e. an offline OpenStreetMap.

 Has anyone done this with OSM?

Hi Rory,
I guess it depends on the precise requirements.

Are you asking whether sections of geodata can be rendered into 'picture
files' for view later? Of course this is basically what is happening all
the time.

If you want a 'slippy map' displayed in a local webbrowser this can also
be achieved by having a local webserver or tile cache on the same machine
that the web browser is on.

Richard wrote up how to build/run a tileserver on Ubuntu:
http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server


 If not, it should be easy enough to generate and create a CD, which
 leads me to my next question. Approximatly how big are all the map
 tiles? I doubt you'd fit the whole planet on a DVD. There might be ways
 to make it simplified, less zoom levels, black  white vs colour,
 restricted area, etc.


Leads me to ask an OpenLayers question can it support a fall back on
the tile server. So one machine has priority covering a specific area, and
when that area is left another machine takes over?

Cheers,
Mungewell.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Joseph Reeves

I wonder if Portable GIS would help?

http://www.archaeogeek.com/blog/portable-gis/

Cheers, Joseph



2009/7/2  si...@mungewell.org:
 Hi all,

 A team has formed amoung the Ubuntu community to help make Ubuntu work
 well for NGOs (Non-Govermental Organisations, aka charities) [1] [2]. I
 myself have done some volunteer work sending ubuntu computers to Africa
 with Camara [3]. One problem with many places in the developing world is
 non-existant or poor internet bandwidth. Many people have made an
 Offline Wikipedia, Camara has done and it has been very successful.

 It occured to me that having good free offline maps would also be very
 valuable, i.e. an offline OpenStreetMap.

 Has anyone done this with OSM?

 Hi Rory,
 I guess it depends on the precise requirements.

 Are you asking whether sections of geodata can be rendered into 'picture
 files' for view later? Of course this is basically what is happening all
 the time.

 If you want a 'slippy map' displayed in a local webbrowser this can also
 be achieved by having a local webserver or tile cache on the same machine
 that the web browser is on.

 Richard wrote up how to build/run a tileserver on Ubuntu:
 http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server


 If not, it should be easy enough to generate and create a CD, which
 leads me to my next question. Approximatly how big are all the map
 tiles? I doubt you'd fit the whole planet on a DVD. There might be ways
 to make it simplified, less zoom levels, black  white vs colour,
 restricted area, etc.


 Leads me to ask an OpenLayers question can it support a fall back on
 the tile server. So one machine has priority covering a specific area, and
 when that area is left another machine takes over?

 Cheers,
 Mungewell.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Rory McCann

On 02/07/09 16:39, si...@mungewell.org wrote:
 If you want a 'slippy map' displayed in a local webbrowser this can also
 be achieved by having a local webserver or tile cache on the same machine
 that the web browser is on.

Yeah that's pretty much what I want to.

I'm curious if it'd be better to pre-generate all the images before, and
then you're just serving static files, or if it'd be better to have some
sort of web server / database / the whole tile rendering shebang on there.

 Leads me to ask an OpenLayers question can it support a fall back on
 the tile server. So one machine has priority covering a specific area, and
 when that area is left another machine takes over?

I'm aiming for this to be totally offline, i.e. the machine this runs on
being totally disconnected from the web. Which means this doesn't really
apply to me.

Rory



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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenPisteMap Down?

2009-07-02 Thread Lars Ahlzen

Hurricane McEwen wrote:
 Hey,
 
 I just went to visit openpistemap.org and I get a blank map. Anyone run 
 in to the same issue?

Yes. And they are probably having the same problem as I had recently 
with toposm.com.

It appears that the OpenLayers.Layer.OSM class now expects a full URL 
template for the tiles, rather than just the directory... i.e. something 
like:

OpenLayers.Layer.OSM.opm = OpenLayers.Class(OpenLayers.Layer.OSM, {
 initialize: function(name, options, args) {
 var url = [
 http://openpistemap.org/tiles/contours/${z}/${x}/${y}.png;
 ];
 ...

instead of the current:

OpenLayers.Layer.OSM.opm = OpenLayers.Class(OpenLayers.Layer.OSM, {
 initialize: function(name, options, args) {
 var url = [
 http://openpistemap.org/tiles/contours/;
 ];
...

- Lars

-- 
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l...@ahlzen.com

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[OSM-talk] OpenPisteMap Down?

2009-07-02 Thread Hurricane McEwen

Hey,

I just went to visit openpistemap.org and I get a blank map. Anyone run in to 
the same issue?


--
Hurricane McEwen
Community Ambassador
skype: hurricanecloudmade
twitter: hurricanemcewen
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[OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip

2009-07-02 Thread Bernhard zwischenbrugger

Hi all

I tried to find the users position.

First I read the location from http://api.hostip.info.
Then, if the user has a browser with geolocation (wifi based position 
finder) the user will be asked if he wants to give his Firefox 3.5 
geolocation to the browser.

The map:
http://www.khtml.org


have fun

Bernhard

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenPisteMap Down?

2009-07-02 Thread Steve Hill

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Hurricane McEwen wrote:

 I just went to visit openpistemap.org and I get a blank map. Anyone run 
 in to the same issue?

Errm.. yes, damn.  :(

I am using the OpenLayers code hosted on the OSM servers - looks like this 
has changed and it is now breaking.  I'll try and have a go at fixing it
tomorrow.

  - Steve
xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org   sip:st...@nexusuk.org   http://www.nexusuk.org/

  Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenPisteMap Down?

2009-07-02 Thread Steve Hill

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Lars Ahlzen wrote:

 It appears that the OpenLayers.Layer.OSM class now expects a full URL
 template for the tiles, rather than just the directory... i.e. something
 like:

Nope, that didn't fix it. :(

Looks like I'll need to do a bit more debugging.

  - Steve
xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org   sip:st...@nexusuk.org   http://www.nexusuk.org/

  Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Mikel Maron


Offline can mean a number of things

- Offline accessible maps. The tiles are created and stored on the local 
computer or network. A laptop can be configured with the OSM stack 
(mod_tile+mapnik), or any number of other stacks that work with OSM data files 
(OpenGeo, Sahana). Or the software could be configured to run from a USB stick 
.. don't know if anyone has attempted this yet for OSM rendering.

The data is the other point. Planet is currently around 6.2 GB, compressed. 
That could fit on two DVDs. Probably better is to filter what's needed somehow, 
by using osmosis to cut a bounding box. Or download the relevant pre-sliced 
files from CloudMade or Geofabrik.

- Offline map editing. In places with temporarily or permanently low or 
non-existant bandwidth (where many NGOs operate), the win would be capturing 
local data in the course of operations, and synchornizing with main OSM back at 
the main office, or when bandwidth became available again. 
 
The rails app could be set up to run on a local computer. The trick is how to 
synchronize. If there's been no other edits in an area, I suppose just sending 
sending over a series of changesets would do. The problem is merging if there's 
been exisiting edits at the same time.

- Devices. iPhone has an offline maps app. It's easy to make maps for Garmin 
devices.

-Mikel




From: Rory McCann r...@technomancy.org
To: OSM Talk List talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 8:16:36 AM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

Hi all,

A team has formed amoung the Ubuntu community to help make Ubuntu work
well for NGOs (Non-Govermental Organisations, aka charities) [1] [2]. I
myself have done some volunteer work sending ubuntu computers to Africa
with Camara [3]. One problem with many places in the developing world is
non-existant or poor internet bandwidth. Many people have made an
Offline Wikipedia, Camara has done and it has been very successful.

It occured to me that having good free offline maps would also be very
valuable, i.e. an offline OpenStreetMap.

Has anyone done this with OSM?

If not, it should be easy enough to generate and create a CD, which
leads me to my next question. Approximatly how big are all the map
tiles? I doubt you'd fit the whole planet on a DVD. There might be ways
to make it simplified, less zoom levels, black  white vs colour,
restricted area, etc.


Thanks

Rory


[1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO
[2]: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread MP

  I'm curious if it'd be better to pre-generate all the images before, and
  then you're just serving static files, or if it'd be better to have some
  sort of web server / database / the whole tile rendering shebang on there.

Pre-generating probably won't be the good way to go, I saw some
figures for OSM tileserver and tiles for whole world at largest zoom
were in order of several hundred terabytes (I think it was like 10^10
tiles for whole world) - though only tiny fraction of them are
actually generated and cached. You will end up with map of either
quite small area or map that is missing some of the zoom levels 

Whole world dump (bzip2 compressed) is 6.2 GB, but for practical use
you have to convert it to some better format (large bzipped file does
not allow random access or queries like return ways at this bbox),
which will likely make the resulting file larger. Theoretically you
may fit on dual layer DVD with whole world, but I doubt it 

If you limit yourself on one continent, you can probably fiot that on
a DVD quite fine.

Perhaps you can combine it - use pre-generated map for very high zooms
(whole world) and then generate the maps for the continent that is
present on the DVD on the fly (with some cache)

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Bernhard zwischenbrugger b...@datenkueche.com wrote:
 First I read the location from http://api.hostip.info.
 Then, if the user has a browser with geolocation (wifi
 based position 
 finder) the user will be asked if he wants to give his
 Firefox 3.5 
 geolocation to the browser.

RIM has had javascript based geolocation in their blackberry browser for a few 
years now, and suddenly cause mozilla foundation and apple does it people 
actually start to care?


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:
 - Devices. iPhone has an offline maps app. It's easy to
 make maps for Garmin devices.

AndNav2 (Android) has an inbuilt pre-caching option, this can be slow, the 
alternative is some apps that precache maps for trekbuddy (J2ME) also work for 
making AndNav2 tile packs too.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:
 The data is the other point. Planet is currently around 6.2
 GB, compressed. That could fit on two DVDs. Probably better

That's assuming you leave it in OSM format, you can probably reduce this size 
if you switch it to some other format specifically developed for portable 
devices like garmin etc.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenPisteMap Down?

2009-07-02 Thread Tom Hughes

On 02/07/09 17:32, Steve Hill wrote:
 On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Hurricane McEwen wrote:

 I just went to visit openpistemap.org and I get a blank map. Anyone run
 in to the same issue?

 Errm.. yes, damn.  :(

 I am using the OpenLayers code hosted on the OSM servers - looks like this
 has changed and it is now breaking.  I'll try and have a go at fixing it
 tomorrow.

You need to use OL 2.8 - either that or use an older copy of 
OpenStreetMap.js.

Basically mixing our hosted file with your own OL is a bad idea - either 
pull both from us or host both yourself. That way you won't get a mismatch.

Tom

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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Elena of Valhalla

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Rory McCannr...@technomancy.org wrote:
 I'm curious if it'd be better to pre-generate all the images before, and
 then you're just serving static files, or if it'd be better to have some
 sort of web server / database / the whole tile rendering shebang on there.

What about using a navigation software like navit that is able to
render the data at realtime?

Also, what area would be needed? whole world? or just nearby areas?
i believe that the current extracts for the whole africa in navit
format could fit even on a single CD

-- 
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homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: elena.valha...@gmail.com

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[OSM-talk] OpenGolfMap? - was OpenPisteMap

2009-07-02 Thread Peter Miller


On 2 Jul 2009, at 17:32, Steve Hill wrote:

 On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Hurricane McEwen wrote:

 I just went to visit openpistemap.org and I get a blank map. Anyone  
 run
 in to the same issue?

 Errm.. yes, damn.  :(

Any chance of opengolfmap? I am needing a map to show the interaction  
between an existing golf course and a proposed cycle route. I can add  
the data to the map but I am not aware of anything that will render it.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Golf_course


Regards,




Peter



 I am using the OpenLayers code hosted on the OSM servers - looks  
 like this
 has changed and it is now breaking.  I'll try and have a go at  
 fixing it
 tomorrow.

  - Steve
xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org   sip:st...@nexusuk.org   http://www.nexusuk.org/

  Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Iván Sánchez Ortega

El Jueves, 2 de Julio de 2009, Rory McCann escribió:
[...]
 I'm curious if it'd be better to pre-generate all the images before, and
 then you're just serving static files, or if it'd be better to have some
 sort of web server / database / the whole tile rendering shebang on there.

IMHO, it'd be better to have the rendered tiles on the DVD. If you want to 
have a tweaked ubuntu liveDVD with postGIS, mapnik, mod_tile and the whole 
shebang, fine. But I guess that doing so will disrupt the workflow of the 
people using the computer. 

I do think that you should experiment with setting up your own tile server, 
and run generate_tiles.py for Africa - that will get you directories full of 
tiles, ready to be burned into a DVD along with a small OpenLayers webpage. 

My guesstimation is that you could fit the tiles for the whole of Africa up to 
zoom 12 o 13 in a DVD.


Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es

In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take.
 - Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Iván Sánchez Ortega

By the way: you should get in touch with Engineers Without Borders[1] and 
similar NGOs. They sure have some experience deploying GIS in the developing 
world.

[1] http://www.ewb-international.org/


Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es

If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything.
-- Mark Twain

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Re: [OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip

2009-07-02 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:

 --- On Thu, 2/7/09, Bernhard zwischenbrugger b...@datenkueche.com wrote:
 First I read the location from http://api.hostip.info.
 Then, if the user has a browser with geolocation (wifi
 based position
 finder) the user will be asked if he wants to give his
 Firefox 3.5
 geolocation to the browser.

 RIM has had javascript based geolocation in their blackberry browser for a 
 few years now, and suddenly cause mozilla foundation and apple does it people 
 actually start to care?

People care because it has been standardized and is being implemented
by major players: http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6

2009-07-02 Thread Stefan de Konink

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Dirk-Lüder Kreie wrote:
 Thomas Schäfer schrieb:
 
 It is probably a moot point anyway because, as someone else pointed out,
 either UCL does it or they don't and we would be the last ones to raise
 a fuss with them over anything.
 You don't want realize. I have to accept that. 

 Sorry.
 
 OSM is largely a meritocracy (or do-ocracy as someone put it) so, if you
 can do it without having to pester UCL staff, do it.

With someone at the UCL we tested the most easy way of IPv6, it worked
instantly. The static way will be tested if this guy has his own account.


Stefan
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREKAAYFAkpNEdsACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn2OUACgjzbaL5yRvBfx2PrwLjmnUy9I
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenGolfMap? - was OpenPisteMap



 Any chance of opengolfmap? I am needing a map to show the interaction
 between an existing golf course and a proposed cycle route. I can add
 the data to the map but I am not aware of anything that will render it.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Golf_course


You can use OpenLayers to placed additional items (icons, ways, bitmaps,
etc) on top of a Tile-Server based map, meaning that you don't need to
render special tiles.

If the cycle route and/or golf course interaction is quite simple you can
generate these as seperate OSM 'xml' files and (effectively) render in the
browser.

This has the advantage of not 'polluting' the OSM database with stuff
which is (not yet) real.

A very simple example(s) is here:
http://www.mungewell.org/osm/osm.html
http://www.cossfest.ca/osm_coast_plaza/osm_coast_plaza.html

Cheers
Mungewell.



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[OSM-talk] Explaining to NASA why the ASTER data should be freely licensed

2009-07-02 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

I contacted people at NASA asking whether they were planning on
releasing their ASTER data under a license that would be suitable for
projects like OSM. I quoted them the terms they present upon download
which would be problematic:


# I agree to redistribute the ASTER GDEM only to individuals within my
organization or project of intended use or in response to disasters in
support of the GEO Disaster Theme. (Required)

# When presenting or publishing ASTER GDEM data, I agree to include
ASTER GDEM is a product of METI and NASA.


As it turns out the first clause is (apparently) to facilitate
tracking of how the data is used and so that they can announce
updates, and the second is to ensure proper attribution. I've asked
them permission to quote their complete reply but that's basically it.

So, what we should do is to author a document (on the wiki?) which
clearly explains why such terms which restrict redistribution and
fields of endeavor mean that free content projects like OSM can't use
the data and will have to keep using SRTM.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Explaining to NASA why the ASTER data should be freely licensed

2009-07-02 Thread MP

  As it turns out the first clause is (apparently) to facilitate
  tracking of how the data is used and so that they can announce
  updates, and the second is to ensure proper attribution. I've asked
  them permission to quote their complete reply but that's basically it.

What about derived data? SRTM is used to generate hillshades and
contour lines for example. ASTER data would be good for that too. Do
they have some less strict terms about distributing such derived data
(like requiring only attribution), or is their policy for it the same?

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Explaining to NASA why the ASTER data should be freely licensed

2009-07-02 Thread Jeffrey Ollie

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmasonava...@gmail.com wrote:

 # When presenting or publishing ASTER GDEM data, I agree to include
 ASTER GDEM is a product of METI and NASA.

That clause seems very similar to the BSD advertising clause (and is
problematic for the same reasons):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses#UC%20Berkeley%20advertising%20clause

-- 
Jeff Ollie

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Re: [OSM-talk] Explaining to NASA why the ASTER data should be freely licensed

2009-07-02 Thread Tyler

Ævar, Thanks for trying to get clarification. Despite my disagreeing that
there is any real restriction on the data that affects its use in OSM,
clarification and explicit permission is always a good thing.

This should have been cross-posted to legal, probably. And let me preface it
all with IANAL... Yet.

Martin:

 What about derived data? SRTM is used to generate hillshades and contour
 lines for example. ASTER data would be good for that too. Do they have some
 less strict terms about distributing such derived data (like requiring only
 attribution), or is their policy for it the same?


I take it to mean that you can re-distribute derived data, that would be the
project of intended use part. They have that in there so that they can
mitigate the number of sources of the ASTER, so that there's not a bunch of
different ASTER Jun 2009 datasets all saying they're the same thing on a
bunch of different University servers free to the public.

Jeff:

 That clause seems very similar to the BSD advertising clause (and
 is problematic for the same reasons)


I assume you mean When presenting or publishing ASTER GDEM data, I agree to
include
'ASTER GDEM is a product of METI and NASA.' That's pretty standard
attribution stuff. Which we should want to encourage. Being able to find the
source is probably sufficient (so on a printed map you could say for a list
of all the sources see www.ReallyAwesomeVolcanoMap.com/sources), but also
doesn't appear to be a required agreement (it doesn't have the required,
which leads me to believe it is optional).

If there were a more standard way to get attribution data on the slippymap
(a link: view all attributed sources in this extent) then OSM would probably
be fine, and 3rd parties attributing data correctly is the 3rd party's
responsibility. Immutable historical attribution would also be cool so that
once all the roads from TIGER are correct and totally different there is
still historical attribution data. The attribution mess has been what's
stopped me from using a lot of available State data. Which has no
restrictions as long as there is attribution. And attribution is such a
cluster with OSM data right now that I just don't really want to deal with
it, there's lots to do elsewhere.

The BSD argument was that there would be a spiraling out of control This
product was derived from this product was derived from this product was
derived from... a better restriction would have been. When presenting or
publishing ASTER GDEM data, I agree to provide attribution to METI and
NASA. Which would allow for more options on how to give the attribution.
But like I said, that seems optional to me.

Finally, if someone is planning on doing any sort of stuff with the ASTER
GDEMs in the US, there's higher resolution data available from USGS, 3m in
some cases, so use that instead.

-Tyler
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenGolfMap? - was OpenPisteMap

2009-07-02 Thread Peter Miller


On 2 Jul 2009, at 21:19, si...@mungewell.org wrote:



 Any chance of opengolfmap? I am needing a map to show the interaction
 between an existing golf course and a proposed cycle route. I can add
 the data to the map but I am not aware of anything that will render  
 it.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Golf_course


 You can use OpenLayers to placed additional items (icons, ways,  
 bitmaps,
 etc) on top of a Tile-Server based map, meaning that you don't need to
 render special tiles.

 If the cycle route and/or golf course interaction is quite simple  
 you can
 generate these as seperate OSM 'xml' files and (effectively) render  
 in the
 browser.

 This has the advantage of not 'polluting' the OSM database with stuff
 which is (not yet) real.

 A very simple example(s) is here:
 http://www.mungewell.org/osm/osm.html
 http://www.cossfest.ca/osm_coast_plaza/osm_coast_plaza.html

Or, of course if the 'holes' are bound up with a relation for all the  
features of the golf course then the relation can be overlaid on the  
standard mapnik tiles. Also, I don't think it is fair to call it  
'polluting the map' to add current details just because there is no  
rendering . Tagging normally takes place ahead of rendering or there  
would be nothing to render!

Out of interest, is there a way of overlaying KML on OSM tiles using  
OL as there is with google maps if one points the search box to a KML  
file?


Thanks for the response.



Regards,


Pete


 Cheers
 Mungewell.




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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenGolfMap? - was OpenPisteMap


 Also, I don't think it is fair to call it
 'polluting the map' to add current details just because there is no
 rendering .

The 'polluting' comment was aimed at the _proposed_ cycle path, not the
golf course details.


 Out of interest, is there a way of overlaying KML on OSM tiles using
 OL as there is with google maps if one points the search box to a KML
 file?

http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/kml-layer.html



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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?


 Whole world dump (bzip2 compressed) is 6.2 GB

It would be possible to filter this to produce a smaller (but less
precise) version, which might be ample for your requirements.

For example a sweeping curve may be drawn in OSM with a node every meter,
taking 100 nodes. When in reality it is derived from GPS data with 6m
accuracy.

Distilling this down to a way which is 'not more than 5m away' from the
original might save a considerable amount of space.

You can also strip out all of the data/tags which you are not interested
in rendering.

Obviously you would not want to upload any of this 'tainted' data back
into the OSM database.

Simon.


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenGolfMap? - was OpenPisteMap

2009-07-02 Thread Richard Weait

On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 19:02 +0100, Peter Miller wrote:
 Any chance of opengolfmap? I am needing a map to show the interaction  
 between an existing golf course and a proposed cycle route. I can add  
 the data to the map but I am not aware of anything that will render it.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Golf_course

The discussion page for that proposed feature links to this golf course
on OSM. 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=10.9112lon=77.02036zoom=17layers=0B00FTF

I think osmarender and Mapnik do a fair job of the rendering.  


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread MP

  You can also strip out all of the data/tags which you are not interested
  in rendering.

  Obviously you would not want to upload any of this 'tainted' data back
  into the OSM database.

If you do now want to edit, just use the data to display a map (and
perhaps do some routing, etc , you need less data (no created_by
or other useless tags and things like highway=residential can be
translated to some index into specific lookup table)

GpsMid (app to display OSM maps on a cellphone and route in them) can
take ~72Mb bzipped dump and produce ~36Mb .jar with the app and
(almost) all the usable data in the OSM. So maybe there is some way
to get 6.2 GB planet dump and produce some ~3Gb file that would
contain entire OSM in a manner that would allow easy displaying and
perhaps routing. Though nobody have written such program yet :)

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote:
 People care because it has been standardized and is being
 implemented
 by major players: http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html

Dunno about you, but 50,000,000 blackberry users can't be too wrong...


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, si...@mungewell.org si...@mungewell.org wrote:
 Distilling this down to a way which is 'not more than 5m
 away' from the
 original might save a considerable amount of space.
 
 You can also strip out all of the data/tags which you are
 not interested
 in rendering.

Or you could use some binary format that reduces all the bloating produced by 
xml.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip

2009-07-02 Thread Aun Yngve Johnsen


On 02/07/2009, at 23:32, John Smith wrote:


 --- On Thu, 2/7/09, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote:
 People care because it has been standardized and is being
 implemented
 by major players: http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html

 Dunno about you, but 50,000,000 blackberry users can't be too wrong...


First of all I doubt there are 50,000,000 blackberry users, that  
number sounds a little too high, and yes, they can be wrong, an entire  
nation elected the wrong president about 8 years ago. Besides,  
your argumentation is the same as x-million IE users cant be wrong  
about HTML4 (I know this is old), so W3C had to come up with HTML  
4.01..

I am not saying that blackberry use a different standard (I do not  
know the specs in this case), just saying I don't buy your arguments.

-
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?

2009-07-02 Thread Stefan de Konink

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

John Smith wrote:
 Or you could use some binary format that reduces all the bloating produced by 
 xml.

...or database [files] as Rory McCann suggested, for direct usage.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] map with FF 3.5 geolocation und hostip


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Aun Yngve Johnsen skipp...@gimnechiske.org wrote:

 First of all I doubt there are 50,000,000 blackberry users,

Not my figure, but apparently the number of active BB subscribers

 that number sounds a little too high, and yes, they can be

I'm not sure but the number of their users gets kicked about in security 
filings, RIM not only makes money on devices but a per monthly fee for data 
connections too.

 wrong, an entire nation elected the wrong president about 8
 years ago. Besides, your argumentation is the same as
 x-million IE users cant be wrong about HTML4 (I know this is
 old), so W3C had to come up with HTML 4.01..

We're not talking about dictators, stupid voters or HTML 4.01, we're talking 
about devices with a browser that can send GPS locations, that mozilla and 
apple are suddenly doing and it makes news, but it's nothing someone else 
hasn't done already for quite some time.

 I am not saying that blackberry use a different standard (I
 do not know the specs in this case), just saying I don't buy
 your arguments.

What argument, I was stating fact, RIM make and have made 10's of millions of 
devices with the browser being able to send the current GPS location.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making an offline OpenStreetMap CD/DVD ?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:
  Or you could use some binary format that reduces all
 the bloating produced by xml.
 
 ...or database [files] as Rory McCann suggested, for direct
 usage.

I'm guessing the database files would take up more space due to overheads and 
indexing, although I've no idea how garmin stores data but they store it in 
such a way that it fits on a reasonably small storage device that can be used 
for routing not just map display.


  

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[OSM-talk-nl] lokatie bewust surfen

2009-07-02 Thread Bas

Beste Talk'ers,

http://www.nu.nl/internet/2032918/firefox-krijgt-nieuwe-mogelijkheden.html

Lokatie

Ook maakt de nieuwe versie het mogelijk om de lokatie van de gebruiker - 
met diens toestemming - door te geven aan een website. Die kan 
afhankelijk daarvan relevante informatie tonen, zoals een plattegrond 
met winkels in de buurt, of de lokale filmladder.

http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/geolocation/
-- 
Met vriendelijke groet,

Bas de Lange

06 166 26 950

Hoofdorganisator Software Freedom Day Nederland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0_KiVdIOtc

http://softwarefreedom.nl/

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[OSM-talk-nl] rss feeds voor forum postings en regio changes in osm

2009-07-02 Thread Rejo Zenger

Hi,

Op het forum van OSM levert extern.php?action=newtype=RSSfid=14 een 
RSS feed van de nieuwe artikelen op (voor in dit geval het forum met ID 
14). In de RSS feed zitten echter alleen de meta gegevens van de posts.  
Vrij waardeloos. Is er ook een manier om de complete post in de RSS feed 
te krijgen?

Is het verder mogelijk om een RSS feed te krijgen van de wijzigingen die 
binnen OSM plaatsvinden in een bepaalde regio? Ik ben vrij goed op het 
lopende van de dingen die er gebeuren in mijn wijk en ik kan dan ook 
goed zien of wijzigingen in OSM correct en volledig zijn. Of niet. Van 
alle manieren waarop je een notificatie zou kunnen krijgen is voor mij 
een RSS feed het meest praktische. 


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] rss feeds voor forum postings en regio changes in osm

2009-07-02 Thread Rob

op vraag 2 zou ik zeggen, kijk eens op
http://www.itoworld.com/static/osmmapper

Op 2 juli 2009 13:48 schreef Rejo Zenger osm-talk...@subs.krikkit.nl het
volgende:

 Hi,

 Op het forum van OSM levert extern.php?action=newtype=RSSfid=14 een
 RSS feed van de nieuwe artikelen op (voor in dit geval het forum met ID
 14). In de RSS feed zitten echter alleen de meta gegevens van de posts.
 Vrij waardeloos. Is er ook een manier om de complete post in de RSS feed
 te krijgen?

 Is het verder mogelijk om een RSS feed te krijgen van de wijzigingen die
 binnen OSM plaatsvinden in een bepaalde regio? Ik ben vrij goed op het
 lopende van de dingen die er gebeuren in mijn wijk en ik kan dan ook
 goed zien of wijzigingen in OSM correct en volledig zijn. Of niet. Van
 alle manieren waarop je een notificatie zou kunnen krijgen is voor mij
 een RSS feed het meest praktische.


 --
 Rejo Zenger . r...@zenger.nl . 0x21DBEFD4 . https://rejo.zenger.nl
 GPG encrypted e-mail prefered.

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] rss feeds voor forum postings en regio changes in osm

2009-07-02 Thread Rejo Zenger

++ 02/07/09 14:23 +0200 - Rob:
op vraag 2 zou ik zeggen, kijk eens op http://www.itoworld.com/static/osmmapper

Dat ziet er veelbelovend uit. Dank voor de tip.



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] rss feeds voor forum postings en regio changes in osm

2009-07-02 Thread Lambertus

Ik heb je request op het forum neergezet. Als er geen negatieve reacties 
op komen dan zal ik proberen de RSS feeds aan te passen zodat de post 
inhoud er ook bij komt te staan.

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=28353#p28353

Rejo Zenger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Op het forum van OSM levert extern.php?action=newtype=RSSfid=14 een 
 RSS feed van de nieuwe artikelen op (voor in dit geval het forum met ID 
 14). In de RSS feed zitten echter alleen de meta gegevens van de posts.  
 Vrij waardeloos. Is er ook een manier om de complete post in de RSS feed 
 te krijgen?
 
 Is het verder mogelijk om een RSS feed te krijgen van de wijzigingen die 
 binnen OSM plaatsvinden in een bepaalde regio? Ik ben vrij goed op het 
 lopende van de dingen die er gebeuren in mijn wijk en ik kan dan ook 
 goed zien of wijzigingen in OSM correct en volledig zijn. Of niet. Van 
 alle manieren waarop je een notificatie zou kunnen krijgen is voor mij 
 een RSS feed het meest praktische. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?

2009-07-02 Thread Sam Couter

b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote:
 If you feel like learning how to compile Java code then this page gives some 
 instructions: 
 http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/601/lectures/java.tools.html

Whoa, too complicated! And difficult to make work for anything less
trivial than Hello World. Most people use Maven or Ant. Looks like the
validator plugin uses Ant.

The SVN repository is at:

http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/validator/

I'd like to say it's as simple as just running 'ant', but it looks like
the validator build.xml assumes the location of a few jar files.

 Basically the command javac is the Java compiler. You run it against .java 
 files to build .class files. The .jar is just a tarball containing a whole 
 directory structure of source code and compiled code (.java's and .class's).

JAR files are really ZIP format, not tarballs. But that's an unimportant
detail, especially since you don't really want to be running jar or
javac manually in most cases.
-- 
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OpenPGP fingerprint:  A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05  5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C


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Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?

--- On Thu, 2/7/09, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote:

 From: b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au
 Subject: Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
 To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
 Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 1:38 AM
 If you feel like learning how to
 compile Java code then this page gives some instructions:
 http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/601/lectures/java.tools.html

 Basically the command javac is the Java
 compiler. You run it against .java files to build .class
 files. The .jar is just a tarball containing a whole
 directory structure of source code and compiled code
 (.java's and .class's).

I compile java code every other day most of the time making apps for smart 
phones, that isn't the issue, it's making a java library for JOSM I don't know 
how to do.

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Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?

2009-07-02 Thread Sam Couter

John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 It's also used from within eclipse, which I already know how to use for 
 making apps for Android, but no idea about making libraries for JOSM...

I'd expect the output from the ant script would be the plugin JAR file,
which you can probably copy into ~/.josm/plugins and restart JOSM. It
shouldn't be any more difficult than that. It can probably be built with
ant outside Eclipse too if you want.
-- 
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Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote:
 I'd expect the output from the ant script would be the
 plugin JAR file,
 which you can probably copy into ~/.josm/plugins and
 restart JOSM. It
 shouldn't be any more difficult than that. It can probably
 be built with
 ant outside Eclipse too if you want.

The information about plugins for JOSM is a bit lacking, it seems according to 
this page:

http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/DevelopingPlugins

Step 1 is to pull the JOSM code from SVN:

svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org /usr/src/osm

Step 2 is to download the validator plugin code into the osm directory 
structure:

cd /usr/src/osm/applications/editors/josm/plugins/
svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/validator/

I'm still waiting for the download of the osm code to finish so I can figure 
out what to do next ;)


  

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Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Step 1 is to pull the JOSM code from SVN:
 
 svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org /usr/src/osm

Actually step one checks out the existing plugins, so ignore what I thought was 
step 2.


  

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[talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
  Step 1 is to pull the JOSM code from SVN:
  
  svn co http://svn.openstreetmap.org
 /usr/src/osm

I cheated, I used the debian/rules file to rebuild it ;)

However I did seem to manage to get it to ignore where one of the tags is 
junction, not sure how to figure out if junction=roundabout yet still looking 
into it.

I also want to get it to ignore any railways that are abandoned since there is 
no track to connect with, and any level crossings have been ripped out etc.

The only change I've made so far is in tests/UntaggedWay.java on line 67

from:

if(highway != null  NAMED_WAYS.contains(highway))

to:

if(highway != null  NAMED_WAYS.contains(highway)  
!tags.containsKey(junction))

To download this rebuilt file, you can download it from:

http://sharebee.com/8d451bc4


  

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Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...


--- On Thu, 2/7/09, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I also want to get it to ignore any railways that are
 abandoned since there is no track to connect with, and any
 level crossings have been ripped out etc.

Well I managed to solve that issue, now I just have unconnected ways being an 
issue in this situation:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-26.15111lon=152.67372zoom=17layers=B000FTF

What was railway line has been turned into an unpaved road and the validator 
plugin is throwing up an error about unconnected way where the barrier=gate is.


  

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Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...

--- On Thu, 2/7/09, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 What was railway line has been turned into an unpaved road
 and the validator plugin is throwing up an error about
 unconnected way where the barrier=gate is.

I think I have solved that issue as well...

new version up http://sharebee.com/b3f5e675

The changes in this version are a little more substantial, patch attached.


  

validator.patch.gz
Description: GNU Zip compressed data
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Re: [talk-au] Tagwatch