Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM 2010 Girona, Spain!!
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Hurricane wrote: > We'll all be basking in sunshine in southern Spain at the 4th Annual State > of the Map on July 9-11, 2010. > Would that be the bit of southern Spain that is in the north east corner of the country? ;) 80n ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:11 PM, OJ W wrote: > filtering-out historical data (date_end doesn't exist or is in the > past) is 1 or 2 rules. Any application needs tens or hundreds of > rules to even begin to understand OSM (try defining 'can you cycle on > this' or 'is this wet' or 'is this visible' in terms of OSM tags) > > p.s. I still agree with Andy in 'ease-of-use matters' and with Frankie > on 'tags should have time-limits'. It's not trivial like many tag > disussions. (but don't underestimate the software) > When my neighborhood changes I remove the old map and draw a new, the old map becomes cruft I don't want to edit it again. But it would be nice to have a way to say that there exists an older version of the map. Burning Man is ok since it's shifted every year, but cities/festivals/markets 4D cakes are really hard to handle. -- /emj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] CommonMap, announcement - geodata repository without Share-Alike.
Hello OpenStreetMappers, I acknowledge that the OSM leadership is serious about baking in the ShareAlike requirement into the allowed usage of OSM data. I also acknowledge that there is a significant proportion of contributors that are happy for their works to be used more broadly. If you consider yourself in that category, I invite you to explore the CommonMap initiative I have just established at http://commonmap.info/ - where I have placed statements of intent. I'm also hoping to create a rallying point for like-minded souls around the world, and move from a "we should do this" to "let's do it". The biggest challenge I have at the moment is finding a web hosting company and securing just-enough cashflow. If you can link me up with these services then please contact me privately. My intent is operate similarly to OSM but to allow an environment for the broadest legal *usage* of contributed data to occur. I think there is room in the open data movement for both initiatives to be of value. I hope the OSM leadership concurs. I trust the osm-talk custodian is comfortable with us exploring the development of CommonMap using the OSM listserver. Perhaps a separate list can be established? Thanks, Brendan Morley. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] SOTM 2010 Girona, Spain!!
Hey OSMers! It's official... We'll all be basking in sunshine in southern Spain at the 4th Annual State of the Map on July 9-11, 2010. For more information, visit the wiki at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2010 Our host city is Girona, Spain. Girona, (or Gerona) near Barcelona, is also home to the Jornadas de SIG Libre (http://www.sigte.udg.edu/jornadassiglibre/), the "Museu Teatre Dal" (Salvador Dali Museum) among other historical landmarks and museums. Girona is known for its foie gras and truffles as well as fabulous wines and amazing seafood. Do I need to mention the locality to sand beaches and the dramatic scenery of the majestic Pyrenees Mountains? Get Involved! *If you're a local, why not join the local organizing committee! *Not a local, but love getting OpenStreetMappers together? *Want to get your business great exposure and networking opportunities? Become a sponsor of SOTM 2010 Email the working group at: t...@stateofthemap.org We'd love to hear from you! More information to come: Call for Papers Themes Sponsorship Opportunities Features of our Host City Mark your calendars! :) Happy Mapping, Hurricane McEwen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] MobileMapperOffice
Does anybody use MobileMapperOffice to make vettorial maps from OSM shapes? -- www.openstreetmap.org - "Io mappo il mio quartiere, tu mappi il tuo, tutti quanti insieme mappiamo l'intero pianeta" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
filtering-out historical data (date_end doesn't exist or is in the past) is 1 or 2 rules. Any application needs tens or hundreds of rules to even begin to understand OSM (try defining 'can you cycle on this' or 'is this wet' or 'is this visible' in terms of OSM tags) p.s. I still agree with Andy in 'ease-of-use matters' and with Frankie on 'tags should have time-limits'. It's not trivial like many tag disussions. (but don't underestimate the software) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man
On 18/12/2009 12:19, David Earl wrote: > Actually if photos are geolocated like that, they also need a reference > datum stored too - how else will the space tourists of the future locate > their photos on the moon and on Mars? Taking this to extremes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U&fmt=22 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
2009/12/19 Andy Allan : > Those who are interested in historical maps will need to know about > the "4th dimension" and whatever tags are involved. Those who aren't, > shouldn't need to. Initially it may well be a niche activity, but long term roads move etc, and it's often useful to know historical information, not just what is current. I'm guessing by the time this becomes an issue that renderers and editors will have caught up, but that doesn't mean we should do things a certain way because the data can't be handled properly at present. Like OJ W wrote, untagged ways used to be rendered as unclassified but that changed because the underlying data shifted from just roads to much more information and it no longer made sense to do things that way. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:16 PM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/19 Andy Allan : >> I prefer the principle of least surprise when working with OSM data. >> The most basic analysis of the data should have the least gotchas >> possible. So we should avoid tagging things as "This is a foo. (By the >> way, no it's not)" and "This is a baz. (Psst, it was a baz three years >> ago, but not any more)" - especially when there are many different >> caveats we can put on the information. > > I'd love to bury my head in the sand and pretend things are always > simple assumptions too, but unfortunately the world has vastly > different ideas and you can either accept them or not, but it's > clearly obvious some people want to map these types of temporary > things, and even past things like the Pompai example. Yes, I never said they shouldn't be mapped. What I am suggesting is that things which do not exist can be mapped, but since the mapping of things that do not exist is a niche passtime then appropriate measures should be taken not to confuse people working with mainstream data. If you are suggesting that highway=residential should also be used to describe things that aren't actually residential roads (but used to be), then I suggest that you are going out of your way to make life difficult for everyone, yet to no advantage of the few. Those who are interested in historical maps will need to know about the "4th dimension" and whatever tags are involved. Those who aren't, shouldn't need to. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging Greenways
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 03:33:41PM +0100, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: > Greg Troxel wrote: > > Paul Johnson writes: > > > >> Sam Vekemans wrote: > >> > >>> Where the only way i know to map it is to use a relation and call it > >>> "route=greenway" and dont have it render on the cyclemap. Just map the > >>> sections as appropriate. > >> Greenway is the US/Canadianism for "cycleway." > > > > I don't follow this. I think that in the US a cycleway would be called > > either a "bike path" or "rail trail", depending on origin. > > In France, we have "voie verte" which is the litteral translation of > "greenway". It is usually a major dedicated cycleway - sometimes on the > former path of a disused and removed railroad track. Same thing in Spain. Here we are tagging that ones as routes * type = route * route = bicycle * name = foobar * network = viasverdes-ffe ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
2009/12/19 Andy Allan : > I prefer the principle of least surprise when working with OSM data. > The most basic analysis of the data should have the least gotchas > possible. So we should avoid tagging things as "This is a foo. (By the > way, no it's not)" and "This is a baz. (Psst, it was a baz three years > ago, but not any more)" - especially when there are many different > caveats we can put on the information. I'd love to bury my head in the sand and pretend things are always simple assumptions too, but unfortunately the world has vastly different ideas and you can either accept them or not, but it's clearly obvious some people want to map these types of temporary things, and even past things like the Pompai example. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Aun Johnsen wrote: > It is not only rendering software, but all software that use the spatial > data in some way or another. A few years ago, you could pretty much assume that any untagged segment in the OSM database was a road. Renderers would display them as such, and any routing programs of that era would have followed them. Since the tagging evolved beyond just "types of road", most software has stopped rendering unknown objects as unclassified roads. So this kind of change (where all software has to gradually abandon assumptions about the data) has been done before? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import or convert .sch file to osm ?
Is there someone know how to convert an autocad file to osm ? I have my own OSM server, but i don't kknow how to add autocad data. I use JOSM, but i didn't find a plugin to do that. Also OpenJump support .shp but i didn't find a way to convert this file into osm after that.. Do you have an idea how to do that ? 2009/12/18 Michael musset > thanks, but i get the same error for python script : > > > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "ogr2osm.py", line 74, in ? > import ogr > ImportError: No module named ogr > > > and it is weird because i 've already installed python-gdal package > > 2009/12/18 Iván Sánchez Ortega > > El Viernes, 18 de Diciembre de 2009, Michael musset escribió: >> > Hi, i really need to convert an ESRI shapefile, do you have an idea ? >> >> ogr2osm. >> >> It still has a few problems running under windows, though, which I'm >> looking >> into. >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Iván Sánchez Ortega >> >> La paciencia es amarga, pero sus frutos son dulces.- J. J. Rousseau. >> > > > > -- > Musset Michael > > Embedded Systems Future Engineer > http://www.linkedin.com/in/micka > -- Musset Michael Embedded Systems Future Engineer http://www.linkedin.com/in/micka ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:12 PM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/18 Aun Johnsen : >> Just a suggestion that I think will satisfy both camps: >> When the burning man us remapped (i.e. moved), add the prefix burning_man: >> to all tags, that will retain them in the database, erase them from maps, >> but still allow for special interest maps to render them. >> This can also work for Glastonbury, Roskilde, and many other yearly events >> that impacts the area where they occure. > > I disagree, if something should be added to "hide" information because > rendering software isn't yet coded to handle the 4th D, it should be > more generic, however I think 4th D tagging should just be figured > out/used/whatever and then let the rendering software/editors play > catch up like with any other new set of tags. Hi John, I prefer the principle of least surprise when working with OSM data. The most basic analysis of the data should have the least gotchas possible. So we should avoid tagging things as "This is a foo. (By the way, no it's not)" and "This is a baz. (Psst, it was a baz three years ago, but not any more)" - especially when there are many different caveats we can put on the information. We already have this with the "highway=construction construction=primary" so that at first search for the primary roads you only get the actual primary roads. Principle of least surprise. We've had similar discussions on the use of amenity=old_pub (and variants) so that consumers of the data aren't surprised by lots of things-that-aren't-there showing up by default. And especially for things that aren't there any more, and can no longer be verified on-the-ground, I think the onus is on hiding that from the 90+% of consumers who aren't interested in that kind of stuff. I'd therefore support the start and end date tags, but the other tags for non-existent features should also be masked/obscured (e.g. by using a prefix). On a separate, but related, point, when people are discussing adding and removing data from the database, it would be nice to take a more slow-paced view on things. Not everyone does minutely updates. It would be nice to consider someone making an engraved sign from OSM data, for example if roadworks makes a street into a one-way street just for a day or two I wouldn't like that to be in the main database. Someone could print out a map and put it on a noticeboard and if they picked the wrong day it would look like that street is permanently one-way. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man
2009/12/19 Aun Johnsen : > Fotos are already timestamped, both in EXIF (together with GeoCode), and in > the file itself. That should give you enough data for setting the foto in > the time axis of a 4D map. I know some cameras give you bearing and angle above/below the horizon, this can be useful as well. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/18 David Earl : > > Of course, all photos should be geolocated in four dimensions of the > > space-time continuum not just lat,lon but lat,lon,altitude and timestamp. > > > > Silly? Perhaps a bit OTT at present, but... > > Silly until altitude sensors/chips get a lot better... > > > As maps extend into three dimensions (e.g. cityscape modelling and > > perspective terrain views) people will want their photos located not > > The Japanese already want 3D stuff just for road navigation since > there is a lot of multideck road ways, having routing software know > what deck you are on is very useful > > > Actually if photos are geolocated like that, they also need a reference > > datum stored too - how else will the space tourists of the future locate > > their photos on the moon and on Mars? > > So we should be using star trek co-ords and star dates? > > > OK, back to the real world... > > Or is it the twilight zone? > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > Fotos are already timestamped, both in EXIF (together with GeoCode), and in the file itself. That should give you enough data for setting the foto in the time axis of a 4D map. Until Alt calculations from GPS/GNSS/[insert future navigation system here] becomes accurate this is just an utopia. Future GeoCode will contain planet referances, the timestamp will change to the chosen time format in the future. All you are asking for is in the future. Now, any special purpose maps will need to find their way of sorting general purpose tags in addition to its own prefixed tags (or even include prefixed tags from other special purpose maps). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:12 PM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/18 Aun Johnsen : > > Just a suggestion that I think will satisfy both camps: > > When the burning man us remapped (i.e. moved), add the prefix > burning_man: > > to all tags, that will retain them in the database, erase them from maps, > > but still allow for special interest maps to render them. > > This can also work for Glastonbury, Roskilde, and many other yearly > events > > that impacts the area where they occure. > > I disagree, if something should be added to "hide" information because > rendering software isn't yet coded to handle the 4th D, it should be > more generic, however I think 4th D tagging should just be figured > out/used/whatever and then let the rendering software/editors play > catch up like with any other new set of tags. > It is not only rendering software, but all software that use the spatial data in some way or another. Yes the ideal is that everything supports 4D correctly, but reality isn't that way. My opinion is that the best is to prefix such tags in a way that "removes" it from the data structure used by most renderers, routing, etc, but preserves the data as is. If a generic prefix or a project specific prefix is the best is something I have offered no thought, and since I'm not working with such projects is nothing I need to think about. I would rather see you come up with a prefix to "hide" the data than that somebody decides to clean out the "mess". I am completely for using OSM for special purpose maps, but that shouldn't in the same way clutter up a general purpose map. The burning man is an example of OSM usage in special purpose maps, European E-number highways is an example of OSM usage in general purpose maps. There are a lot of tags with mtb: prefix, that is an example of special purpose maps. You get my point? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
On 18 Dec 2009, at 3:51 , Mikel Maron wrote: > > Of course, we now have a map with data shown past the end_date for the 2008 > event. The most obvious option is tuning the renderers to data past it's end > date. There's downsides to that .. larger planet size, increased complexity > in osm2pgsql/mapnik style rules. Another option is a seperate project more > tuned to historic data, though that certainly has it's drawbacks. > > In the mean time, Burning Man is such an isolated place and event, I think > it's a good place to continue to experiement with these problems. So if it's > all to same to you .. don't delete the Man! As Aaron said in his post, > there's another year before we need to figure out what to do! not isolated enough, someone found it and started the discussion. I knew about it and didn't change anything for that reason and left it to the creators of the data. but any mapper not knowing about burning man might wipe it out without asking. > > Dave F. > > As I was considering doing a similar thing for Glastonbury, I was > > wondering what the consensus on mapping temporary (but regular) structures? > > I guess Glastonbury has a very similar circumstance to Burning Man. I don't > think there's consensus, but happy to keep discussing the possibilities. > > Mikel > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
On 18 Dec 2009, at 24:42 , Peter Körner wrote: >> there is no structure left behind for burning men. as soon as all is >> removed map should show current status again. >> keeping it in the database is ok but the tags need to reflect that there >> is nothing left on ground > > *I think* it should be deleted in one changeset. Next year they could > restore the data from this changeset and move the objects to where they > are now. > > If it's on the same place every year and the ways are going to stay, > then they should be tagged as disused. > > *but* i think this is nothing that we should do -- instead we should go > in conversation with the original author. > sure, it's not vandalism and best if original author feels responsible. osm is a community project and everyone interested can and should step in > Peter > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
On 18 Dec 2009, at 24:57 , Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. > > I don't see why that should be relevant to us. China follows a "no mapping" > policy - do we care? you have spent to much time on mapping. ;-) no trace has nothing do do with maps it means "don't leave a trace and clean up everything when you leave" > > Bye > Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging Greenways
Greg Troxel wrote: > like this ? > http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/northeast/nash.htm > > here, that's definitely 'rail trail'. is that similar to wha you mean > in France ? Not all "voies vertes" are "rail trails" but the ones I mentioned definitely are. I did not know "rail trail" - thanks for that addition to my vocabulary. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import or convert .sch file to osm ?
thanks, but i get the same error for python script : Traceback (most recent call last): File "ogr2osm.py", line 74, in ? import ogr ImportError: No module named ogr and it is weird because i 've already installed python-gdal package 2009/12/18 Iván Sánchez Ortega > El Viernes, 18 de Diciembre de 2009, Michael musset escribió: > > Hi, i really need to convert an ESRI shapefile, do you have an idea ? > > ogr2osm. > > It still has a few problems running under windows, though, which I'm > looking > into. > > > -- > -- > Iván Sánchez Ortega > > La paciencia es amarga, pero sus frutos son dulces.- J. J. Rousseau. > -- Musset Michael Embedded Systems Future Engineer http://www.linkedin.com/in/micka ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import or convert .sch file to osm ?
El Viernes, 18 de Diciembre de 2009, Michael musset escribió: > Hi, i really need to convert an ESRI shapefile, do you have an idea ? ogr2osm. It still has a few problems running under windows, though, which I'm looking into. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega La paciencia es amarga, pero sus frutos son dulces.- J. J. Rousseau. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
On Dec 17, 2009, at 5:46 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Steve Bennett wrote: >> Hmm, no one thought of registering "Open Maps" as a trademark as well as >> "OpenStreetMap"? > > What makes you think that if OpenStreetMap is a term deemed to general > to work as a trademark, Open Maps would somehow work? It wasn't too general, it was too descriptive. > > Bye > Frederik > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > Yours &c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging Greenways
Greg Troxel wrote: > Paul Johnson writes: > >> Sam Vekemans wrote: >> >>> Where the only way i know to map it is to use a relation and call it >>> "route=greenway" and dont have it render on the cyclemap. Just map the >>> sections as appropriate. >> Greenway is the US/Canadianism for "cycleway." > > I don't follow this. I think that in the US a cycleway would be called > either a "bike path" or "rail trail", depending on origin. In France, we have "voie verte" which is the litteral translation of "greenway". It is usually a major dedicated cycleway - sometimes on the former path of a disused and removed railroad track. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] tagging Greenways
Paul Johnson writes: > Sam Vekemans wrote: > >> Where the only way i know to map it is to use a relation and call it >> "route=greenway" and dont have it render on the cyclemap. Just map the >> sections as appropriate. > > Greenway is the US/Canadianism for "cycleway." I don't follow this. I think that in the US a cycleway would be called either a "bike path" or "rail trail", depending on origin. I would use "greenway" to describe a large linear park that might contain a bike path and footpaths, as in http://www.rosekennedygreenway.org/ Using greenway to describe a cycleway seems odd to me, although I suspect that the term greenway does not have an established meaning, and people think it means whatever the local "Foo Greenway" is. pgp0A21Vbb3B8.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
2009/12/18 Steve Bennett : > Whatever you like, but I'm not seeing the link. I/you/anyone could fix the > wiki now...why the need for a local entity? Why do you really want to create > a new website? Because it's easier that trying to spend time/effort getting the main OSM site changed, and as a side benefit it can be made more region specific off the bat. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:34 PM, John Smith wrote: > This is a documentation issue, not a viewing issue, Buh? > the OSM website is > a bit disjointed, once a local entity is sorted out I'm planning to > get a localised a website setup and from there we can start to > implement our own idea on how to introduce people into OSM. > Whatever you like, but I'm not seeing the link. I/you/anyone could fix the wiki now...why the need for a local entity? Why do you really want to create a new website? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Gone OT (was revert changesets??)
Dave F. wrote: > Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > >> Burning man follows a no trace policy. >> >> Who says this & why? >> >> >> Burning man policy >> > I'm definitely intrigued by this. > I thought they were all peace & love! > Do you have a link to this policy? It's OK I found it: http://tickets2.burningman.com/info.php?i=2386 Point 5 is outstanding. If I'm reading it correctly it's saying that if the tower, which you can walk up, collapses due to negligent construction, while I'm on it, I can't sue for compensation to injury. I'm not a lawyer, but is this enforcible? Ta Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man
2009/12/18 David Earl : > Of course, all photos should be geolocated in four dimensions of the > space-time continuum not just lat,lon but lat,lon,altitude and timestamp. > > Silly? Perhaps a bit OTT at present, but... Silly until altitude sensors/chips get a lot better... > As maps extend into three dimensions (e.g. cityscape modelling and > perspective terrain views) people will want their photos located not The Japanese already want 3D stuff just for road navigation since there is a lot of multideck road ways, having routing software know what deck you are on is very useful > Actually if photos are geolocated like that, they also need a reference > datum stored too - how else will the space tourists of the future locate > their photos on the moon and on Mars? So we should be using star trek co-ords and star dates? > OK, back to the real world... Or is it the twilight zone? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man
On 18/12/2009 11:51, Mikel Maron wrote: >beyond that, the layout retains importance as > geographic context to photos, videos, memories. If you look at the > flickr map, the background map depends on whether the photo was taken in > 2008 or 2009. > [http://www.aaronland.info/weblog/2009/09/18/fivethings/#burningman] > > THENWHAT? Of course, all photos should be geolocated in four dimensions of the space-time continuum not just lat,lon but lat,lon,altitude and timestamp. Silly? Perhaps a bit OTT at present, but... As maps extend into three dimensions (e.g. cityscape modelling and perspective terrain views) people will want their photos located not just on a conventional vertically projected map, but on the terrain of cityscape model - they'll want to show the photo is at the top of the ski lift on a snowy landscape model, not buried deep in a mountain, or at the top of the Eiffel tower not at the base on a Google Earth view. Likewise, many seaside piers burn down. So what's this photo doing in the middle of the sea on my map? - ah it was actually at the end of the now-vanished pier thirty years ago, and the time dimension of the photo could in principle chronolocate it as well a geolocate it. More sadly, an 80 year old looks back at her photos of a holiday taken in her teens in the Maldives in 2009 and sees it located in the middle of blank ocean hundreds of km from land. Global warming has wiped out the Maldives some time before 2070. Actually if photos are geolocated like that, they also need a reference datum stored too - how else will the space tourists of the future locate their photos on the moon and on Mars? OK, back to the real world... David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
From: Dave F. > Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > > > Burning man follows a no trace policy. > > > > Who says this & why? > > > > > > Burning man policy > I'm definitely intrigued by this. > I thought they were all peace & love! > Do you have a link to this policy? I explained in my other message to the list .. he's referring to the environmental policy "Leave No Trace", nothing to do with GPS traces :) http://www.burningman.com/environment/ Anyhow, Burning Man is hardly about peace & love. There's also plenty of chaos and darkness! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
2009/12/18 Aun Johnsen : > Just a suggestion that I think will satisfy both camps: > When the burning man us remapped (i.e. moved), add the prefix burning_man: > to all tags, that will retain them in the database, erase them from maps, > but still allow for special interest maps to render them. > This can also work for Glastonbury, Roskilde, and many other yearly events > that impacts the area where they occure. I disagree, if something should be added to "hide" information because rendering software isn't yet coded to handle the 4th D, it should be more generic, however I think 4th D tagging should just be figured out/used/whatever and then let the rendering software/editors play catch up like with any other new set of tags. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > Burning man follows a no trace policy. > > Who says this & why? > > > Burning man policy I'm definitely intrigued by this. I thought they were all peace & love! Do you have a link to this policy? Ta Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
2009/12/18 Mikel Maron : > So that's the situation. I decided to represent the temporality by adding > "start_date" and "end_date" tags to the 2008 data, one of the suggestions of I agree with comments on the 4D page about this that start_date/end_date is a bit conflicting with other similar tags that hold a completely different purpose, the discussion page has a lot more suggestions on what else could be used: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/4th_Dimension ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
From: Aun Johnsen Date: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??) To: Mikel Maron Just a suggestion that I think will satisfy both camps: When the burning man us remapped (i.e. moved), add the prefix burning_man: to all tags, that will retain them in the database, erase them from maps, but still allow for special interest maps to render them. This can also work for Glastonbury, Roskilde, and many other yearly events that impacts the area where they occure. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: > Hi > > As the mapper for Burning Man, let me explain a little bit about the > festival, and how I've attempted to represent it in OSM. > > But first... > > Apollinaris Schoell > > > should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. as > alternative it must be at least tagged different to disappear from maps. > > Hilarious! :) > > He's talking about the "Leave No Trace" ethic that guides our effort to > leave a minimal impact on the Black Rock desert environment. For a temporary > city of 50,000, the cleanliness of the event is extraordinary. [ > http://www.burningman.com/environment/] > > As for digital traces, Burning Man very much encourages it. That's the > guiding principle for the Burning Man Earth project, we collectively collect > hundreds of gigabytes of data at the event. [http://earth.burningman.com/ > http://www.slideshare.net/mikel_maron/burning-man-earth-at-web-20-expo-presentation]. > As for the EFF criticism, I suggest reading Burning Man's response on the > complexity of the issue [http://blog.burningman.com/?p=4599] > > OK! > > So the Burning Man event itself is open to the public for one week. There's > approximately 1 month set up prior, and 1 month tear down. The rest of the > year, nothing much happens in that geographic location at all. > > Each year, the event moves slightly to a different position, to minimize > the impact on the desert. That's why you see two similar looking city > layouts, slightly offset. > > Despite being physically gone, the importance of the city remains all year > long, pretty much up until the time the city starts reconstruction in July. > And even beyond that, the layout retains importance as geographic context to > photos, videos, memories. If you look at the flickr map, the background map > depends on whether the photo was taken in 2008 or 2009. [ > http://www.aaronland.info/weblog/2009/09/18/fivethings/#burningman] > > THENWHAT? > > So that's the situation. I decided to represent the temporality by adding > "start_date" and "end_date" tags to the 2008 data, one of the suggestions of > historic mapper Frankie Roberto > [http://www.slideshare.net/frankieroberto/mapp-history-on-open-street-map]. > The start_date was the start_date of the event in 2008, and the end_date was > the day before the opening of the 2009 event. I haven't yet added start_date > and end_date tags to 2009 data. > > For example .. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/290073903 > > I realize it's not perfect, but I think trying to represent both the > physical presence, and temporal relevance of this data, in a combination of > more than two tags, would have just been overly complex. Open to suggestions > though. > > Of course, we now have a map with data shown past the end_date for the 2008 > event. The most obvious option is tuning the renderers to data past it's end > date. There's downsides to that .. larger planet size, increased complexity > in osm2pgsql/mapnik style rules. Another option is a seperate project more > tuned to historic data, though that certainly has it's drawbacks. > > In the mean time, Burning Man is such an isolated place and event, I think > it's a good place to continue to experiement with these problems. So if it's > all to same to you .. don't delete the Man! As Aaron said in his post, > there's another year before we need to figure out what to do! > > Dave F. > > As I was considering doing a similar thing for Glastonbury, I was > > wondering what the consensus on mapping temporary (but regular) > structures? > > I guess Glastonbury has a very similar circumstance to Burning Man. I don't > think there's consensus, but happy to keep discussing the possibilities. > > Mikel > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Burning Man (was: revert changesets??)
Hi As the mapper for Burning Man, let me explain a little bit about the festival, and how I've attempted to represent it in OSM. But first... Apollinaris Schoell > should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. as alternative > it must be at least tagged different to disappear from maps. Hilarious! :) He's talking about the "Leave No Trace" ethic that guides our effort to leave a minimal impact on the Black Rock desert environment. For a temporary city of 50,000, the cleanliness of the event is extraordinary. [http://www.burningman.com/environment/] As for digital traces, Burning Man very much encourages it. That's the guiding principle for the Burning Man Earth project, we collectively collect hundreds of gigabytes of data at the event. [http://earth.burningman.com/ http://www.slideshare.net/mikel_maron/burning-man-earth-at-web-20-expo-presentation]. As for the EFF criticism, I suggest reading Burning Man's response on the complexity of the issue [http://blog.burningman.com/?p=4599] OK! So the Burning Man event itself is open to the public for one week. There's approximately 1 month set up prior, and 1 month tear down. The rest of the year, nothing much happens in that geographic location at all. Each year, the event moves slightly to a different position, to minimize the impact on the desert. That's why you see two similar looking city layouts, slightly offset. Despite being physically gone, the importance of the city remains all year long, pretty much up until the time the city starts reconstruction in July. And even beyond that, the layout retains importance as geographic context to photos, videos, memories. If you look at the flickr map, the background map depends on whether the photo was taken in 2008 or 2009. [http://www.aaronland.info/weblog/2009/09/18/fivethings/#burningman] THENWHAT? So that's the situation. I decided to represent the temporality by adding "start_date" and "end_date" tags to the 2008 data, one of the suggestions of historic mapper Frankie Roberto [http://www.slideshare.net/frankieroberto/mapp-history-on-open-street-map]. The start_date was the start_date of the event in 2008, and the end_date was the day before the opening of the 2009 event. I haven't yet added start_date and end_date tags to 2009 data. For example .. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/290073903 I realize it's not perfect, but I think trying to represent both the physical presence, and temporal relevance of this data, in a combination of more than two tags, would have just been overly complex. Open to suggestions though. Of course, we now have a map with data shown past the end_date for the 2008 event. The most obvious option is tuning the renderers to data past it's end date. There's downsides to that .. larger planet size, increased complexity in osm2pgsql/mapnik style rules. Another option is a seperate project more tuned to historic data, though that certainly has it's drawbacks. In the mean time, Burning Man is such an isolated place and event, I think it's a good place to continue to experiement with these problems. So if it's all to same to you .. don't delete the Man! As Aaron said in his post, there's another year before we need to figure out what to do! Dave F. > As I was considering doing a similar thing for Glastonbury, I was > wondering what the consensus on mapping temporary (but regular) structures? I guess Glastonbury has a very similar circumstance to Burning Man. I don't think there's consensus, but happy to keep discussing the possibilities. Mikel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > We map what is on ground ( with some exceptions like boundaries) > > And powerlines, and opening hours, and bus/tram/bike routes, and proposed/planned/demolished buildings/roads, and ski runs, and culturally interesting places that are not physically present, and names, and legal restrictions, and zonings, etc. Mapping "the fourth dimension" is perfectly appropriate if it can be done cleanly. Just like you might map the site of a completely disappeared archeogical site, why would you not map the former location of important cultural events? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:57 PM, John Smith wrote: > The reduce the map frame size and put the ad along the bottom of the > map, also when taking a screen shot of this they also add ads on the > left hand pane. > > http://img193.imageshack.us/i/googleadsc.png/ > Hmm, I can't get that bottom ad to appear, but it looks like searches like "Melbourne" or "Sydney" trigger that sidebar ad. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 John Smith > > I thought China wasn't preventing mapping, but trying to extort (more) > money out of mapping companies? > > They prevent mapping from individuals who are mostly likely using a grey market GPS, returning real latitude, longitude value. China is using officially an algorithm to fudge the lat long in official GPS requirement to prevent people from knowing precisely the location. The only way for a mapping company to have their map certified is by paying the chinese government to fudge their data with their magical algorithm into a single room. So essentially you are right. I have been told that the practice was initially a way to protect themselves, but it has been becoming a huge money making scheme now. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 Frederik Ramm : > Hi, > > John Smith wrote: >> >> Isn't that like photos, they can prevent your from creating the photo >> (in some cases like events) but once it exists they have no rights to >> make you delete it or have any rights over the image itself. > > Burning Man sure *try* to regulate the publication of photos (they have been > publicly critisized by the EFF for that) but so does China. If I have traces > from somewhere and think they are useful to OSM I will upload them no matter > what "policy" someone has but then this is an academic debate for me as I am > unlikely to collect Burnning Man or Chinese traces any time soon ;-) I thought China wasn't preventing mapping, but trying to extort (more) money out of mapping companies? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
Hi, John Smith wrote: > Isn't that like photos, they can prevent your from creating the photo > (in some cases like events) but once it exists they have no rights to > make you delete it or have any rights over the image itself. Burning Man sure *try* to regulate the publication of photos (they have been publicly critisized by the EFF for that) but so does China. If I have traces from somewhere and think they are useful to OSM I will upload them no matter what "policy" someone has but then this is an academic debate for me as I am unlikely to collect Burnning Man or Chinese traces any time soon ;-) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 Frederik Ramm : > Hi, > > Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. > > I don't see why that should be relevant to us. China follows a "no > mapping" policy - do we care? Isn't that like photos, they can prevent your from creating the photo (in some cases like events) but once it exists they have no rights to make you delete it or have any rights over the image itself. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
On Friday 18 Dec 2009 2:27:42 pm Frederik Ramm wrote: > > should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. > > I don't see why that should be relevant to us. China follows a "no > mapping" policy - do we care? > where is china? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
Hi, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > should be deleted then. Burning man follows a no trace policy. I don't see why that should be relevant to us. China follows a "no mapping" policy - do we care? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
2009/12/18 Peter Körner : > *but* i think this is nothing that we should do -- instead we should go > in conversation with the original author. Flickr guys wished for 4D tagging, for things like photos taken at burning man so you can geo-position them on the relevent map data instead of keeping multiple sets of tiles for these transitional events etc. It would also come in handy for things like airports that get replaced so that older photos can be positioned properly. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] revert changesets??
> there is no structure left behind for burning men. as soon as all is > removed map should show current status again. > keeping it in the database is ok but the tags need to reflect that there > is nothing left on ground *I think* it should be deleted in one changeset. Next year they could restore the data from this changeset and move the objects to where they are now. If it's on the same place every year and the ways are going to stay, then they should be tagged as disused. *but* i think this is nothing that we should do -- instead we should go in conversation with the original author. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
2009/12/18 Steve Bennett : > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:29 PM, John Smith > wrote: >> >> While it's a noble pursuit to help a specific demographic I think it's >> important not to exclude others in the process, most areas I've lived >> in in the last 12 months have no NearMap coverage, there is some >> coverage with the Qld property boundary data, that doesn't help in >> northern NSW, where GPS traces is almost the only way to accurately >> import ways and POIs etc. > > Sure. The editor experience in a nearmap enabled area is completely > different though. I don't even have a GPS and I've already made a large > number of edits. The front page almost needs to ask the question upfront - > do you live in one of the following areas - then guide them as appropriate. This is a documentation issue, not a viewing issue, the OSM website is a bit disjointed, once a local entity is sorted out I'm planning to get a localised a website setup and from there we can start to implement our own idea on how to introduce people into OSM. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Friday 18 Dec 2009 1:54:54 pm Liz wrote: > On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote: > > That's Liz's dept, > > B*gg* > I've lost the thread of this argument > what am i supposed to be doing next? > slang goog - they are now saying that python sucks -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countering Google's propaganda
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote: > That's Liz's dept, B*gg* I've lost the thread of this argument what am i supposed to be doing next? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:29 PM, John Smith wrote: > > While it's a noble pursuit to help a specific demographic I think it's > important not to exclude others in the process, most areas I've lived > in in the last 12 months have no NearMap coverage, there is some > coverage with the Qld property boundary data, that doesn't help in > northern NSW, where GPS traces is almost the only way to accurately > import ways and POIs etc. > Sure. The editor experience in a nearmap enabled area is completely different though. I don't even have a GPS and I've already made a large number of edits. The front page almost needs to ask the question upfront - do you live in one of the following areas - then guide them as appropriate. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
