[OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Paleino]

Hello people,
today I've stumbled upon changeset 6682943 [0] in my area, and, digging
further, I found its companions listed in [1].

While I believe this is valuable information, I'm quite puzzled by the import.
In particular, it added nodes also to already well-mapped airports, with
missing information. Compare:

1) node 1042047005, added by the import

aeroway = aerodrome
iata = TPS
name = Trapani / Birgi Airport
source = ourairports.com

2) way 74837437,  pre-existing:

aeroway = aerodrome
closest_town = Trapani
ele = 7
iata = TPS
icao = LICT
name = Aeroporto di Trapani-Birgi
name:en = Trapani-Birgi Airport
name:it = Aeroporto di Trapani-Birgi
source = wikipedia
type = civil;military
wikipedia:en = Trapani-Birgi_Airport


I suspect this kind of different quality is present elsewhere too.

What do you think about reverting these changesets?


Kindly,
David

[0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6682943
[1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683367
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683351
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6683322
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6682893
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6680143


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Ed Loach]

David wrote:

> What do you think about reverting these changesets?

I stumbled across an imported node in the middle of the existing
area of airport nearest me and have deleted the node, but it being
there made me review the existing mapping and I have improved my
previous estimates of the car park and buildings based on the bing
imagery, so the fact that the node was there made me look at the
area again and has led to improvements overall. 

Globally, the question is whether more new airports have been added
than duplicated. I'm guessing that unless a similar import had been
done previously from another source then the answer is yes, in which
case cleaning up the data might be better than reverting.

Perhaps someone more adept with xapi than I can work out the level
of duplication (and perhaps from that even a changeset to remove the
duplicates)?

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 12/17/10 09:43, David Paleino wrote:

today I've stumbled upon changeset 6682943 [0] in my area, and, digging
further, I found its companions listed in [1].


Imports on such scale should be discussed before they're done, and 
documented after. In this case, a discussion would probably have yielded 
the recommendation to automatically detect duplicates.


Complete lack of discussion is reason enough for a revert in my opinion. 
I'd suggest contacting the importer and asking him where/how he has 
heard the community about his plans and whether he intends to fix the 
problems.


Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:53 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Complete lack of discussion is reason enough for a revert in my
> opinion. 
> I'd suggest contacting the importer and asking him where/how he has 
> heard the community about his plans and whether he intends to fix the 
> problems. 

and also what is his source
-- 
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Kenneth Gonsalves


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Toby Murray]

In my area it looks like a couple of small rural grass strips was
added. The hospital helipad was initially duplicated but then
re-deleted in a subsequent changeset by the same user. So it looks
like there was at least SOME attempt at de-duplicating things, even if
it was done after the fact.

Toby


On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:53 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 12/17/10 09:43, David Paleino wrote:
>>
>> today I've stumbled upon changeset 6682943 [0] in my area, and, digging
>> further, I found its companions listed in [1].
>
> Imports on such scale should be discussed before they're done, and
> documented after. In this case, a discussion would probably have yielded the
> recommendation to automatically detect duplicates.
>
> Complete lack of discussion is reason enough for a revert in my opinion. I'd
> suggest contacting the importer and asking him where/how he has heard the
> community about his plans and whether he intends to fix the problems.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Toby Murray]

The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes
themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is
indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least.

Toby

On Dec 17, 2010 3:10 AM, "Kenneth Gonsalves"  wrote:

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:53 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Complete lack of discussion is reason enou...
and also what is his source
--
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Kenneth Gonsalves



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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-12-17 01:22, Toby Murray wrote:
The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the nodes 
themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the data is 
indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front at least.


Really? I read the "about" page at ourairports.com and there is no mention 
of reproduction rights one way or the other, except that every page has the 
footer "Copyright © 2007–2010 by Megginson Technologies Ltd."


That aside, did someone discuss how accurate/timely the data is supposed to 
be? In the US, the FAA is a reasonably accurate and timely (monthly) source 
of information. If ourairports.com aggregates multiple timely sources, I 
could see the value in an ongoing import from them, but keep in mind that 
there are other sites that do the same thing, who might should be 
considered as well.


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Jacek Konieczny]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 09:43:29AM +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> I suspect this kind of different quality is present elsewhere too.

Yes, I have removed a duplicate in my area this morning. The node added
was giving no new information (it had wrong name, was only a node and
missed other data already present in OSM).

> What do you think about reverting these changesets?

+1

Whatever the data is, it can be reimported after cleaning it up.
Currently it added a lot of mess.

I think the import should first be cleaned up, maybe automatically, for
duplicates and then applied in smaller chunks, so it can be easily
reverted partially.

Greets,
Jacek

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Tom Hughes]

On 17/12/10 09:47, Alan Mintz wrote:

> At 2010-12-17 01:22, Toby Murray wrote:
>
>> The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the
>> nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the
>> data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front
>> at least.
> 
> Really? I read the "about" page at ourairports.com and there is no
> mention of reproduction rights one way or the other, except that every
> page has the footer "Copyright © 2007–2010 by Megginson Technologies Ltd."

I messaged him about it last night when I saw the import start and he
replied pointing at http://www.ourairports.com/data/ which does indeed
say it is PD data. He has also listed it in the import catalogue in the
wiki with a pointer to that page.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Richard Fairhurst]

Toby Murray wrote:
> The source is documented in both the changeset comments and on the 
> nodes themselves. I saw a conversation on IRC to the effect that the 
> data is indeed PD so there don't seem to be any worries on that front 
> at least.

A simple assertion that "this is PD" isn't good enough. Lots of people don't
have any understanding of IP in geodata, and will happily trace from Google
Maps then say "I declare the result to be CC-BY/PD/CC-BY-SA/entirely my
copyright/what-have-you". Pretty much the entire quantity of Wikipedia's
co-ordinate data is like this, for example.

We need some confidence as to the actual surveying method before being able
to take a PD declaration on trust.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Stefan de Konink]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:


A simple assertion that "this is PD" isn't good enough. Lots of people don't
have any understanding of IP in geodata, and will happily trace from Google
Maps then say "I declare the result to be CC-BY/PD/CC-BY-SA/entirely my
copyright/what-have-you". Pretty much the entire quantity of Wikipedia's
co-ordinate data is like this, for example.

We need some confidence as to the actual surveying method before being able
to take a PD declaration on trust.


Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the 
data, it should be enough.



Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Andrew Harvey]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
> Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data,
> it should be enough.

I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data
may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data
for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been
traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data
cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 17/12/2010 09:43, David Paleino a écrit :

What do you think about reverting these changesets?


+1

Imports must have been object of previous discussions, on legacy (but it 
seems right) and on methods and it apears the import is creating a lot 
of dupes.


I have seen a lot of town imported in Burkina Faso on the same way, 
without checking the existing...


It would be nice to recall some "best practices" on the wiki import page 
for :
* warning the importers that they import would be subject of revert if 
some rules are note respected,

* giving links to successfull imports as example of method
* giving links of usefull tools and methods to compare contents and to 
clean data


A "proposed import" page ?
--
FrViPofm

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 17/12/2010 09:43, David Paleino a écrit :

What do you think about reverting these changesets?


+1

Imports must have been object of previous discussions, on legacy (but it 
seems right) and on methods and it apears the import is creating a lot 
of dupes.


I have seen a lot of town imported in Burkina Faso on the same way, 
without checking the existing...


It would be nice to recall some "best practices" on the wiki import page 
for :
* warning the importers that they import would be subject of revert if 
some rules are note respected,

* giving links to successfull imports as example of method
* giving links of usefull tools and methods to compare contents and to 
clean data


A "proposed import" page ?
--
FrViPofm

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Stefan de Konink]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote:


On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:

Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the data,
it should be enough.


I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data
may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data
for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been
traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data
cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data.


Someone is innocent until proven guilty.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Andrew Harvey]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the
>>> data,
>>> it should be enough.
>>
>> I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data
>> may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data
>> for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been
>> traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data
>> cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data.
>
> Someone is innocent until proven guilty.
>

Yes, which is why I said we should ask the user for more information
about that data if there is some evidence to suggest it may be from a
non-compatible source.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Richard Fairhurst]

Stefan de Konink wrote:


Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the
data, it should be enough.


No. By that logic we'd never revert data which is clearly traced from  
infringing sources. We can, and we do.


The OSM map is a single collaborative project, not a series of  
personal projects. Data (and core code, for that matter) should  
satisfy our collective standards. If I see a badly mapped road, I'll  
delete it and replace it with something better. Exactly the same  
applies to badly licensed data.


cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 17/12/2010 11:34, Stefan de Konink a écrit :

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote:

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink  
wrote:
Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports 
the data,

it should be enough.


I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data
may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data
for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been
traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data
cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data.


Someone is innocent until proven guilty.
It is note a question of someone's guilty. I hope people hare of good 
faith. People can be wrong with good faith.


But a question of data and certainty of compatible licence.
--
FrViPofm


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Pieren]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

The legal discussion makes only sense if the import is going to be accepted.
And since it is not the first import about airports in OSM, this one will
create more troubles than anything else. I agree with Frederik that it
should be reverted. It's not because some geodata can be downloaded (freely
or not) from somewhere that they can stupidly imported in OSM without any
regards about existing data. Such things were possible 4 years ago, not
anymore today.

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Robert Scott]

On Friday 17 December 2010, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
> >> Come on, this is non-sense. If someone accepted the CT and imports the 
> >> data,
> >> it should be enough.
> >
> > I disagree, if there is reasonable evidence or suspicion that the data
> > may have licensing problems then we should ask the source of that data
> > for more details. If it turns out that the PD data really has been
> > traced from say a Google Map, then at least under OSM policy that data
> > cannot be uploaded to the database, hence we must remove that data.
> 
> Someone is innocent until proven guilty.

We are not a legal system. We are a project with funds that won't stretch very 
far when it comes to legal fees.


robert.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Alan Mintz]

From http://www.ourairports.com/about.html , under Credits:

"Google Maps for providing a free, high-quality mapping API and geocoder"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

OSM is an open system.

Anyone can contribute as he likes.

If there is something wrong then you cannot say "must be reverted"

It's the original author that should be convinced to revert data.

Only none cooperative authors should "have their date reverted"

 

All OSM-ers are equal, nor Pieren nor Frederik are more equal.

 

Gert Gremmen

-

 

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)

P Before printing, think about the environment. 

 

 

Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org
[mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Pieren
Verzonden: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:27 PM
Aan: Richard Fairhurst
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst <
rich...@systemed.net> wrote:


The legal discussion makes only sense if the import is going to be
accepted. And since it is not the first import about airports in OSM,
this one will create more troubles than anything else. I agree with
Frederik that it should be reverted. It's not because some geodata can
be downloaded (freely or not) from somewhere that they can stupidly
imported in OSM without any regards about existing data. Such things
were possible 4 years ago, not anymore today.


Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Paleino]

Gert,

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:49 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen wrote:

> OSM is an open system.
> 
> Anyone can contribute as he likes.

You're wrong.
Anyone can contribute correct (at most of the user capabilities) non-duplicate
data.

Data failing to meet this criteria MUST be reverted. Otherwise we'll end up
with the database full of low-quality, duplicate, useless things.
The quality of OSM data is only based on peer-review.

Kindly,
David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Ben Laenen]

Toby Murray wrote:
> In my area it looks like a couple of small rural grass strips was
> added. The hospital helipad was initially duplicated but then
> re-deleted in a subsequent changeset by the same user. So it looks
> like there was at least SOME attempt at de-duplicating things, even if
> it was done after the fact.

But they're forgetting the case where the original airport was mapped with the 
tags on a polygon, and now I can go over the entire country again removing the 
duplicate nodes that often have wrong names as well...

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

Read my mail ! Instead of debiting the obvious!

OSM is open.  His right is your right !

Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone
about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone
does not meet YOUR quality standards.
In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also
one day, and you do not like to be treated that way.

If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story.

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] 
Namens David Paleino
Verzonden: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:18 PM
Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

Gert,

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:49 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert 
Gremmen wrote:

> OSM is an open system.
> 
> Anyone can contribute as he likes.

You're wrong.
Anyone can contribute correct (at most of the user capabilities) non-duplicate 
data.

Data failing to meet this criteria MUST be reverted. Otherwise we'll end up 
with the database full of low-quality, duplicate, useless things.
The quality of OSM data is only based on peer-review.

Kindly,
David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Tim Waters]

On 17 December 2010 11:49, Alan Mintz  wrote:
>
> From http://www.ourairports.com/about.html , under Credits:
>
> "Google Maps for providing a free, high-quality mapping API and geocoder"

But it also says:

"Marc Wick at Geonames for permission to run thousands of batch
queries against his geolocation APIs;"


>
> --
> Alan Mintz 
>
>
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[OSM-talk] OSM data and Google Maps - Update

[Ed Parsons]

Last month back Steve Coast contacted us to let us know that he had
identified what may have been OpenStreetMap data in Google Maps of Colombia.
 We raised this issue with our provider for Colombia, and they agreed to
remove the disputed data from their data set while they continue to discuss
the matter with Steve and the OSM community.

Our provider has since provided us with a new dataset. We expect the changes
to appear in Google Maps in the coming weeks but don't have an exact date to
share.

-- 

Ed Parsons,
Geospatial Technologist
Google

Mobile: +44 (0)78 2538 2263
Personal blog www.edparsons.com
VC 38814629
Registered Office: Belgrave House, 76 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W
9TQ
Registered in England Number: 3977902

"It's better to be a pirate than to join the Navy."
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[OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Antony Pegg]

Hi all,

Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US 
http://open.MapQuest.com site


Full details about it are available on our devblog at 
http://devblog.MapQuest.com


Thank you to everyone here who has helped make this happen (you know who 
you are, and the beer is always on my tab when we meet)


Merry Christmas
Ant

--
Aut viam invenium aut facium


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 17/12/2010 13:08, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen a écrit :


OSM is an open system.

Anyone can contribute as he likes.


Not only...
Anyone can contribute for making data beter.
We don't always agree on what is beter. But we discuss it.
And we generaly agree that dupes are worse.


If there is something wrong then you cannot say "must be reverted"


I can say it ! I will not do it without discussion...
(In fact for technical reason I will not do it but I will suport the one 
who will do it after discussion and agrement)


It's the original author that should be convinced to revert data.


Not exactly !
If I put data in the database, I'm no more the owner.


Only none cooperative authors should "have their date reverted"

All OSM-ers are equal, nor Pieren nor Frederik are more equal.


It is not a question of person but of quality of data.
We are not talking of reverting somebody, but reverting a changeset.
It is not a question of Pieren or Frederik or anybody, but of having 
discussion of the oportunity of doing a revert.
And the opinion of Pieren or Frederic or anybody else is as valuable as 
the opinion of the author, as far as it is well-founded.


OSM is not a sympathic club but a project. The aim is not to be kind 
(even if it doesn't arm !).


Kindly yours :-)
--
FrViPofm

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Re: [OSM-talk] using walking papers where some data may not be used for OSM

[john whelan]

Think of OSM as a tool set.

Use a local copy of OSM and don't upload the changes.  Basically use
something like JOSM to extract the OSM file and save a local copy. Take a
very small area say two inches by two inches with no data in it and download
to new data layer.   Then add in the desired restricted changes with a
suitable tag only to the new layer.   Save it locally.

When you are ready to print or view just load up the two layers and merge
them and save them under a new name.  Fire up Maperitive and point it at the
local merged file.  You can customise the view by adjusting the rules so
things that are important to you get shown on the map.

Cheerio John

On 17 December 2010 02:12, maning sambale wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Below is a possible use-case scenario we are planning to use OSM and
> walking-papers [1].
>
> A rural health organization deploys community health workers to
> monitor household/individual health issues within far flung
> communities.  They want to develop a an internal geospatial dbase of
> its beneficiaries as well as community resources.  The org have very
> limited IT resources and intends to use open source and open data in
> their offline "GIS".
>
> I see the potential of using walking papers as a good facility to
> conduct resource mapping and household monitoring.  They can print out
> wp and annotate the map during field visits.  They can then scan,
> upload and download the rectified scans to update their database using
> QGIS.   The GIS person then updates their own database and maybe add a
> few roads, trails and other community resources in OSM.
>
> Now for my question [2]:
> 1. Some data coming from wp prints will not be included in OSM either
> for privacy or non-relevance to osm data.  Is this OK with the
> existing and future license?
> 2. Because they used wp and osm to extract locations that will be
> related to org database, should it comply with the with the
> share-alike provision?
>
> I appreciate other ideas on how to implement this.
>
> [1] I know that it is possible to do everything in-house (wp and osm
> software are open source anyway), but the organization have very
> limited IT resources.
> [2] Probably in legal list but I'm asking anyway :)
> --
> cheers,
> maning
> --
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> wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Peter Körner]

Am 17.12.2010 13:30, schrieb ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen:

Read my mail ! Instead of debiting the obvious!


I'm sorry I've to jump into this discussion. It's not only about data 
quality but about how we interact with each other. It's best practice at 
OSM to announce data imports before actually doing them, providing data 
samples and asking the Malinglist about Concerns.


This would have brought up concerns about duplicates and we'd have found 
a way to get this done properly.


Did the Importer ask the Malinglist about comments? did he receive some?

Peter

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[OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Blake Crosby]

Hello,

I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of 
all, I would like to apologize for its outcome.


My intention was to map some of the missing airports from OSM. My 
methodology was as follows:


- Check to see what data is already in OSM. Download the data from the XAPI.
- If a node in OSM was within 0.1' of a node in the ourairports.com 
data, then do not import.


As you can see there was a flaw. Not all airports in OSM have nodes, 
but they use ways/areas instead.


As someone pointed out on the list, I did forget step two for a few 
heliports, and had to revert. This is why you saw some duplicates 
appear, then dissapear.


My second mistake was not talking to the community first, and for that I 
apologize.


I was careful to ensure that the data did have the correct licence, 
which can be found at www.openstreetmap.com/data/ . If I was incorrect 
in assuming that Public Domain was not allowed, please let me know.


Moving forward, I will be glad to revert all my changes or I can work 
with the community to improve the data quality.


Blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Peter Körner]

Am 17.12.2010 15:28, schrieb Blake Crosby:

I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of
all, I would like to apologize for its outcome.


Hi Blake

thank you for talking to us although we ranted so bad about the import.


My intention was to map some of the missing airports from OSM. My
methodology was as follows:
.. you data and your methodology were fine, even if they were not 
perfect, but who's perfect after all?



My second mistake was not talking to the community first, and for that I
apologize.
This was the only real mistake you did but you fixed it by talking to us 
now.



Moving forward, I will be glad to revert all my changes or I can work
with the community to improve the data quality.
The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many 
nodes did you import?


Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Katie Filbert]

On Dec 17, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Peter Körner   
wrote:


It's not only about data quality but about how we interact with each  
other.


+1

As for data quality and dupes, we already have airports in the US from  
previous GNIS data imports.  Within those, I found hundreds of  
heliports tagged as airports, among other quality issues.


Adding a whole bunch more dupes (of unknown accuracy, dubious PD but  
probably copied from Google Maps or API) is unhelpful.  At minimum  
some more thought and discussion about such import that widely affects  
the community is essential.


Cheers,
Katie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Paleino]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:28:26 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm responsible for the massive import of airports yesterday. First of 
> all, I would like to apologize for its outcome.

Thanks for talking here :)

> [..]
> 
> As you can see there was a flaw. Not all airports in OSM have nodes, 
> but they use ways/areas instead.

Since you seem to have the required skills, would you mind correcting this?
i.e. leave the nodes where no airport is mapped, and delete them (possibly
without failing, since some of us already deleted some of them) where the
airport is mapped as way/area instead. That would be great :)

> [..]
> 
> I was careful to ensure that the data did have the correct licence, 
> which can be found at www.openstreetmap.com/data/ . If I was incorrect 
> in assuming that Public Domain was not allowed, please let me know.

It is allowed, AFAICS. We just need to be sure that the source data *really* is
in Public Domain.

Thank you,
David

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] licence change w/o data loss + better version control + more quality with flagged revisions

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

I would greatly encourage this.
I would also like if it could show the results 
if one (odbl) or another license (PD) was accepted and non-compatible data 
removed,
partially, or as a whole, dependent on the acceptance of the license / 
contributor terms
by the author.

It would show the community the consequences of an unthoughtful decision,
be it CC-BY-SA, PD or ODBL.
Especially now an important part of the community is pushing towards a choice.

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org 
[mailto:legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Heiko Jacobs
Verzonden: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:14 AM
Aan: legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: [OSM-legal-talk] licence change w/o data loss + better version 
control + more quality with flagged revisions

Hello

I want to add again some remarks to licence change
combined with some ideas to qualitiy management and version control.
It might be also interesting in combination with a bacchelor thesis
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=9817 (in german!)
or in combination with the rough view to state of licence change
http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/?layers=B0

For all of this you need
- decisions how to manage licence change and
- tools for this.

For the last point we need two tools
- get a complete version control of objects
- decision of the licence state of an object

Does anyone on this world already works on such tools? I not heard about it.

First tool is needed because of splitting and joining ways.
At splitting one new way will appear with a new history and with a
new user, if this user did something on this way or not (besides
splitting it). For joining the history of one way is lost.

To get a complete history is very awful today. You might get
it by viewing all nodes, but this may complicate ...

Such a tool would be useful already toay for some questions:
E.g. since when something ist changed at an object and who did it?
So it would be nice to get such a tool
- independant from licence change
- not only for getting old history for licence change
- for future use, too

For licence change, a stand alone tool may good enough,
but then you will get no intermediate states of licence changes progress

For last point, the API has to learn it, if the editing tool
don't gives hints ...


Now we have the first tool ;-)
Next point: licence change

Who needs the new licence?

The mapping-only-user not really, because he is already mapping
under CC and this seems good enough for him ...

The users of most data also not realy, becauss most things
like slippy maps online and on Garmins already work with old licence

But there is a circle of adavanced users of OSM data, who want to
put date in special tools, might be mixing them with other data
under other licences, and they don't want to get problems with
unclear licence ...

I state, that the new licence will be mostly better like the old one.
especially for this group, but for others, too, and it would be
good to hurry up.

I only have problems with loss of data or (this might be more worse)
failures in data because of removing all data, where no one can relicence
it because of death, not reachable anymore or left project, ...
So some geometry, tags, objects will disappear. If only some
nodes or tags of a way disappear, the rest might be very faulty ...

For the circle of special users the new licence is really necesary,
but the most users will only get angry, if they will see, which
date dissapears or is wrong other change of licence.

So I already discussed some ideas to avoid this, but with no luck yet ...
So I try it again now ;-)

One tool has still to be discussed:
Which licence has an object?
There is a longer list of problems for this decision. I will not
discuss them now, because
- bacchelor thesis, which may give answers?
- this problems are not interesting for my idea.
I only want look at the result. This may be:
- object clearly 100% OdBL
- object clearly 0% ODbL
or might be
- 100% ODbL
- 90% ODbL
- ...
- 100% CC
or
- object is 100% PD
What exactly has to be discussed, especially for data edited by
more than one user, totally unsolved yet.

Up to now the result will be ONE ODbL-only data set.

But why only once and "so binary"?

I think, the process of decision will be programmed as a process,
who may be startet more than once, becaus a lot of mapper
is interessed to see, what will be the result, if
"up to now 47110815 mapper accepted, the new map will be
http://... if no more will accept"

Then we have nearly something, that can be used to put this
information back to databse instead of extracting a new database
So aor whatever will
be verified, will get a new l=... (licence=...)
l=o, l=c, l=p or variations like l=o50 for 50% ODbL ...
might be also something addition

Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Blake Crosby]

On 17/12/2010 9:42 AM, Peter Körner wrote:

The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many
nodes did you import?


There were 23,013 nodes:

Of those:

3,680 were Heliports/Helipads
19,333 were Aerodromes

The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on 
this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears 
INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome.


I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by 
2300 UTC.


Blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Katie Filbert]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Blake Crosby  wrote:

> On 17/12/2010 9:42 AM, Peter Körner wrote:
>
>>
Blake,

Thank you for responding here on the mailing list and explaining things.


> The community has to decide it the changes should be reverted. How many
>> nodes did you import?
>>
>
> There were 23,013 nodes:
>
> Of those:
>
> 3,680 were Heliports/Helipads
> 19,333 were Aerodromes
>
> The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on
> this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears
> INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome.
>

That seems reasonable, except for the fact that we have concerns with the
licensing of the data.  We care a lot about the lineage of the data. The
about page of ourairports.com lists ways they sourced the data, including
using Google Maps and Wikipedia (which takes data from Google Maps).

Take a look at the FAQ which explains some about this:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ

I very much wish the data was usable here but sadly I don't think it is
because of the copyright concerns.

Cheers,
Katie


> I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by
> 2300 UTC.
>
> Blake
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Paleino]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:31:41 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote:

> The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on 
> this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears 
> INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome.

I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)

> I will begin work on that today and should have everything completed by 
> 2300 UTC.

Great! Thank you!

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Katie Filbert]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 7:35 AM, Tim Waters  wrote:

> On 17 December 2010 11:49, Alan Mintz 
> >
> wrote:
> >
> > From http://www.ourairports.com/about.html , under Credits:
> >
> > "Google Maps for providing a free, high-quality mapping API and geocoder"
>
> But it also says:
>
> "Marc Wick at Geonames for permission to run thousands of batch
> queries against his geolocation APIs;"
>

It would be good to have more details on which part of the data comes from
where.

-Katie



>
>
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Pieren]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen  wrote:

>
> Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone
> about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone
> does not meet YOUR quality standards.
> In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also
> one day, and you do not like to be treated that way.
>
> If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story.
>
> Gert Gremmen
>
>
You have a strange  way to inverte the roles. So WE are the bad boys because
we notice a crappy mass import done by someone who did not try to discuss
first and generates a lot of manual corrections for the others.
I meet every day lower quality contributions but manual/local contributions
and mass imports are not equal and shall be treated differently.

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Blake Crosby]

On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote:

I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)


My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755).

It resulted in the deletion of 921 nodes.

Any of the nodes that I added that was within 0.1' of any existing 
node/way tagged as aeroway='aerodrome' has been removed.


I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly.

I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they 
can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas.


Thanks for your patience.

Blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[john]

Can you confirm that the data came from sources compliant with the license 
terms, and not from sources such as Google Maps that don't allow their data to 
be used in OSM?  The information at
 indicates that at least some of the 
ourairports.com data came from Google.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports
>From  :mailto:m...@blakecrosby.com
Date  :Fri Dec 17 11:37:10 America/Chicago 2010


On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote:
> I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)

My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755).

It resulted in the deletion of 921 nodes.

Any of the nodes that I added that was within 0.1' of any existing 
node/way tagged as aeroway='aerodrome' has been removed.

I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly.

I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they 
can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas.

Thanks for your patience.

Blake

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is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Paleino]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:37:10 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote:

> On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote:
> > I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)
> 
> My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755).
> 
> [..]
> 
> I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly.
> 
> I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they 
> can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas.
> 
> Thanks for your patience.

Thank you for working into this :)

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Blake Crosby]

On 17/12/2010 12:50 PM, j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

Can you confirm that the data came from sources compliant with the license 
terms, and not from sources such as Google Maps that don't allow their data to 
be used in OSM?  The information at
  indicates that at least some of the 
ourairports.com data came from Google.


I spoke with the owner of the site and he was able to confirm that the 
Google Geocoder was used for the sole purpose of converting the lat/long 
data into a "human readable" format Location String in the format 
,, (for display on the site).


It was not used to gather specific locations for airports or other 
information.


Since I'm not storing these details in the node metadata, would there 
still be an issue?


Blake



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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Stefan de Konink]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Blake Crosby wrote:


On 17/12/2010 12:50 PM, j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

 Can you confirm that the data came from sources compliant with the license
 terms, and not from sources such as Google Maps that don't allow their
 data to be used in OSM?  The information at
   indicates that at least some of
 the ourairports.com data came from Google.


I spoke with the owner of the site and he was able to confirm that the Google 
Geocoder was used for the sole purpose of converting the lat/long data into a 
"human readable" format Location String in the format 
,, (for display on the site).


It was not used to gather specific locations for airports or other 
information.


Since I'm not storing these details in the node metadata, would there still 
be an issue?


No. But even if it was used for OSM data, I wonder where the T&C at 
Google.com would prohibit the use of the Geocoder in a project.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Blake Crosby]

The Second round of deletes are complete (changeset 6689583).

This resulted in 281 nodes marked as aeroway=helipad being deleted.

Blake

On 17/12/2010 12:37 PM, Blake Crosby wrote:

On 17/12/2010 10:57 AM, David Paleino wrote:

I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)


My first round of deletions have completed (changeset 6688755).

It resulted in the deletion of 921 nodes.

Any of the nodes that I added that was within 0.1' of any existing
node/way tagged as aeroway='aerodrome' has been removed.

I will be performing the same for aeroway='helipad' shortly.

I will also be asking users who've emailed me privately to see if they
can confirm that the clean-up worked in their areas.

Thanks for your patience.

Blake


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-12-17 07:57, David Paleino wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:31:41 -0500, Blake Crosby wrote:

> The general consensus with other users who have e-mailed me directly/on
> this list is that I should revert the changes for which a node appears
> INSIDE an area defined as as helipad/aerodrome.

I'd say also "near", not only "inside", if you can :-)


And "near" being something like 1 km, since the point that defines the 
airport in different data sources has not always been the same (i.e. towers 
move, rounding, etc.).


Also, a dup of the same IATA/ICAO codes (see existing airports for common 
tagging - they are not always the same since there were multiple imports) 
anywhere within the same country is a dup, too, right?


Unfortunately, this may still result in at least one bad node I know of - 
something like the Southern California Edison Palm Springs Area Heliport, 
which was imported from GNIS near I-15 around Riverside, CA, but does not 
exist (at least nowhere near there from the name).


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

On 23000 nodes approximately 5 % were duplicate.

Who of you will thank Blake for 95% new data ?

None !

Is that a way to treat fellow OSM-ers :

Crappy mass import !  Instant doubt on license !

And who is WE ? You mean I ! You speak for yourself !

 

Blake:  thank you for your contributions, and mistakes

are human.

 

Gert

 

Van: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org
[mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Pieren
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 december 2010 18:08
Aan: OSM
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen  wrote:


Instead of discussing about someone, discuss WITH someone
about its data quality, and do not complain in public if not anyone
does not meet YOUR quality standards.
In-avoidable your data will be subject to discussion also
one day, and you do not like to be treated that way.

If someone ignores to discuss, well that's another story.

Gert Gremmen


You have a strange  way to inverte the roles. So WE are the bad boys
because we notice a crappy mass import done by someone who did not try
to discuss first and generates a lot of manual corrections for the
others. 

I meet every day lower quality contributions but manual/local
contributions and mass imports are not equal and shall be treated
differently.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Stefan de Konink]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Op 17-12-10 22:33, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen schreef:
> Blake:  thank you for your contributions, and mistakes
> are human.

And sometimes unavoidable. For example in the case of the Dutch busstop
imports. You cannot 'deduplicate' existing nodes within < 5 meters
because that can be the opposite of the street already.

Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:06:29 -0500
Blake Crosby  wrote:

> The Second round of deletes are complete (changeset 6689583).
> 
> This resulted in 281 nodes marked as aeroway=helipad being deleted.
> 
> Blake

I'm removing any that I find in my area. I came home yesterday to find
that a dirt strip used by agricultural planes has been upgraded to an
Airport.

Node id=1042093159 lat=-34.3666992; lon=146.8829956; Data set: 115FD37;
User: [id:28609 name:bcrosby]; ChangeSet id: 65F93F; Timestamp:
2010-12-17T02:18:53Z, Version: 1 tags: "iata"=""
"aeroway"="aerodrome"
"source"="ourairports.com"
"name"="Ardlethan Airport"

I don't know who at "ourairports.com" dreamed that this was an airport,
but the little sign to the place says "Airstrip".
I can't even confirm if it is appropriately placed, as there is no
suitable aerial iamgery.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Nathan Edgars II]

Speaking of horrible imports, when are we going to delete the "environmental
hazard" import in the US?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/586927988/history
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Massive-import-of-airports-tp5844802p5845926.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 08:06 -0500, Antony Pegg wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US 
> http://open.MapQuest.com site

Just out of interest, why did you choose to extract only the continental
united states out of the entire worlds data that the project has?
Surely this leads to more effort at startup and down-the-line, as you
need to keep the data up-to-date and have to extract only a very small
subset of the data available.

Does MapQuest have interest in maps from around the world, or is this
more a 'we provide maps for those we can advertise to'?  If Mapquest
wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you be using data
from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place where a bulk of the
data was imported directly from a public db (TIGER).

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Toby Murray]

What makes you think this is an extract? Did you try scrolling over to Europe?

Also the .com domain is only the latest one to be rolled out. These
sites have all been online for several months already:
http://open.mapquest.co.uk/
http://open.mapquest.in/
http://open.mapquest.it/
http://open.mapquest.fr/
http://open.mapquest.de/

And I think 5 others.

Toby

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:12 PM, David Murn  wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 08:06 -0500, Antony Pegg wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US
>> http://open.MapQuest.com site
>
> Just out of interest, why did you choose to extract only the continental
> united states out of the entire worlds data that the project has?
> Surely this leads to more effort at startup and down-the-line, as you
> need to keep the data up-to-date and have to extract only a very small
> subset of the data available.
>
> Does MapQuest have interest in maps from around the world, or is this
> more a 'we provide maps for those we can advertise to'?  If Mapquest
> wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you be using data
> from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place where a bulk of the
> data was imported directly from a public db (TIGER).
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:33 +0100, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen wrote:
> On 23000 nodes approximately 5 % were duplicate.
> 
> Who of you will thank Blake for 95% new data ?
> 
> None !

Ive seen a few thanks for the addition of the data, maybe you missed
them, or only read emails further if there was criticism.

I wish 95% was accurate enough for my job, imagine if 95% of your email
made it to your inbox but 5% was lost, would you be thanking your ISP
for the great job they did, or would you be asking them to fix the
missing 5%?  You wouldnt be ungrateful for the 95% you did receive, but
youd prefer to know its 100% reliable.


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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Steve Doerr]

On 17/12/2010 23:12, David Murn wrote:

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 08:06 -0500, Antony Pegg wrote:



Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US
http://open.MapQuest.com site



Just out of interest, why did you choose to extract only the continental
united states out of the entire worlds data that the project has?


I was able to scroll over the Atlantic to the UK and view the map of my 
local area on that site.


--
Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Steve Doerr]

On 17/12/2010 23:29, David Murn wrote:


I wish 95% was accurate enough for my job, imagine if 95% of your email
made it to your inbox but 5% was lost, would you be thanking your ISP
for the great job they did, or would you be asking them to fix the
missing 5%?  You wouldnt be ungrateful for the 95% you did receive, but
youd prefer to know its 100% reliable.


That's a false analogy. You wouldn't say to your ISP, 'Don't deliver any 
mail at all to my address unless you guarantee that less than 5% is lost 
in the process.' That's effectively what you are suggesting.


--
Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Mike N.]

Speaking of horrible imports, when are we going to delete the 
"environmental

hazard" import in the US?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/586927988/history


  It should be deleted - most items here are placed in the middle of roads, 
sometimes a KM or 2 off, resulting in mass confusion.Also data so old, I 
can barely trace it back to historical items that might have once existed at 
the specified locations.




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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:26:05 -0600
Toby Murray  wrote:

> What makes you think this is an extract? Did you try scrolling over
> to Europe?
> 
snip

> >  If
> > Mapquest wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you
> > be using data from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place
> > where a bulk of the data was imported directly from a public db
> > (TIGER).
> >
> > David

I agree with David, that this shows a view of the world which is
distorted, ignoring Asia where most humans actually reside, and ignoring
Africa at the same time.
A useful thing would be an honest comparison of what is available
through Mapquest through their original sources of data, and what is
available if Mapquest uses OSM.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Massive import of airports

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 17.12.2010 15:24, schrieb Katie Filbert:
On Dec 17, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Peter Körner  
wrote:


It's not only about data quality but about how we interact with each 
other.


+1


+2

Best regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Cartinus]

On Saturday 18 December 2010 00:48:17 Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:26:05 -0600
>
> Toby Murray  wrote:
> > What makes you think this is an extract? Did you try scrolling over
> > to Europe?
>
> snip
>
> > >  If
> > > Mapquest wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you
> > > be using data from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place
> > > where a bulk of the data was imported directly from a public db
> > > (TIGER).
> > >
> > > David
>
> I agree with David, that this shows a view of the world which is
> distorted, ignoring Asia where most humans actually reside, and ignoring
> Africa at the same time.
> A useful thing would be an honest comparison of what is available
> through Mapquest through their original sources of data, and what is
> available if Mapquest uses OSM.

If you had used your spectacles while reading in stead of scissors, then you 
might have noticed you cut out this link:

http://open.mapquest.in/

If you still don't want to click on it, I'll give you a hint: .in stands for 
India.

Some quote from Mark Twain comes to mind.

-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[John Mitchell]

I tried searching by my home address and it could not find it.  When I tried
it on Mapquest classic it found that same address.

John

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Antony Pegg  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US
> http://open.MapQuest.com site
>
> Full details about it are available on our devblog at
> http://devblog.MapQuest.com
>
> Thank you to everyone here who has helped make this happen (you know who
> you are, and the beer is always on my tab when we meet)
>
> Merry Christmas
> Ant
>
> --
> Aut viam invenium aut facium
>
>
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>



-- 
John J. Mitchell
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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 17:26 -0600, Toby Murray wrote:
> What makes you think this is an extract?

The subject line specifically says "launched for the US", and the first
line of the original email said "Very very proud to announce that we
have launched the US [link] site".  I therefore assumed that it was a US
site, I dont know what I was thinking.

>  Did you try scrolling over to Europe?

I clicked the link when I first replied to this email an hour ago, but
it timed out while loading.  After reloading, while writing this email,
the page finally displayed its splash screen (maybe thats why it took so
long, loading the mapquest pop-up splash-screen).

The interface seems quite slow and jumpy (no smooth scrolling or
zooming), compared to slippymap, and roads seem to be marked strangely.
Looking at a state level, I see lots of town names, even of smaller
towns, but some larger ones were missing.  There was only one main
highway shown.  When I start zooming into a city, some roads (or parts
of the roads) show up more bold than others of a similar rating, and by
the time I zoom in enough to see residential streets, every street is
drawn the same, whether its a motorway or a parking service lane.  The
one exception to this, seems to be turning_circles, which appear at
least 5x wider than the road.

Ive also noticed while you have attiribution at the bottom, I cant find
a permalink.  Is (was?) it not a requirement of the licence to have a
permalink on the map display, or is this just an unwritten rule that
everyone complies with?

David

> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:12 PM, David Murn  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 08:06 -0500, Antony Pegg wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US
> >> http://open.MapQuest.com site
> >
> > Just out of interest, why did you choose to extract only the continental
> > united states out of the entire worlds data that the project has?
> > Surely this leads to more effort at startup and down-the-line, as you
> > need to keep the data up-to-date and have to extract only a very small
> > subset of the data available.
> >
> > Does MapQuest have interest in maps from around the world, or is this
> > more a 'we provide maps for those we can advertise to'?  If Mapquest
> > wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you be using data
> > from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place where a bulk of the
> > data was imported directly from a public db (TIGER).
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 18 December 2010 01:28, David Murn  wrote:
> Ive also noticed while you have attiribution at the bottom, I cant find
> a permalink.  Is (was?) it not a requirement of the licence to have a
> permalink on the map display, or is this just an unwritten rule that
> everyone complies with?

It's an unwritten rule that isn't a rule because not everyone complies
with it (I don't).

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Mike N.]

Ive also noticed while you have attiribution at the bottom, I cant find
a permalink.  Is (was?) it not a requirement of the licence to have a
permalink on the map display, or is this just an unwritten rule that
everyone complies with?


 LOL - An additional refreshing thing about Mapquest using our data is that 
they can present maps in a way that they feel best meets the needs of their 
viewers.  They don't need a permalink hyperlink 5 mm x 5 mm from the lower 
right corner of the screen when they have a "Link" clearly displayed in the 
3rd oval from the top left.


  The rest of their attribution looks more than adequate to me.



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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:
>
> I agree with David, that this shows a view of the world which is
> distorted, ignoring Asia where most humans actually reside, and ignoring
> Africa at the same time.
> A useful thing would be an honest comparison of what is available
> through Mapquest through their original sources of data, and what is
> available if Mapquest uses OSM.

Liz and David,

Mapquest does use the whole world's data in their Open Mapquest sites.
They just roll out country-specific sites to provide proper
localization. But all of the world's data is available on any of their
Open websites.

In fact, I can go to any of the Open websites, scroll over to my
country, and get driving directions:
http://open.mapquest.com/link/8-Ua19

In addition, since they don't have data for my country from other
providers, they show OSM data instead in their main (non-Open)
website, though only as tiles.

Eugene

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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 20:14 -0500, Mike N. wrote:
> > Ive also noticed while you have attiribution at the bottom, I cant find
> > a permalink.  Is (was?) it not a requirement of the licence to have a
> > permalink on the map display, or is this just an unwritten rule that
> > everyone complies with?
> 
> LOL - An additional refreshing thing about Mapquest using our data is that 
> they can present maps in a way that they feel best meets the needs of their 
> viewers.  They don't need a permalink hyperlink 5 mm x 5 mm from the lower 
> right corner of the screen when they have a "Link" clearly displayed in the 
> 3rd oval from the top left.

Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it as I thought the link had to
be with the map data, same as the attribution.  Although, it would be
nice if they had a link which had the coordinates in it, rather than
just http://open.mapquest.com/link/8-qjaOT9xl (the link for the default
view).  I guess this helps with user tracking, as if 5 people tag an
object and share the link, with permalink you only see how popular the
object is, whereas with mapquest method you can individually track which
users are using each others links.

David



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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[John F. Eldredge]

They did, indeed, pick a region, the USA, where the bulk of the data came from 
the TIGER database import, just as you say they should have done.  So, why are 
you complaining?

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US
>From  :mailto:da...@incanberra.com.au
Date  :Fri Dec 17 17:12:48 America/Chicago 2010


On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 08:06 -0500, Antony Pegg wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Very very proud to announce that we have launched the US 
> http://open.MapQuest.com site

Just out of interest, why did you choose to extract only the continental
united states out of the entire worlds data that the project has?
Surely this leads to more effort at startup and down-the-line, as you
need to keep the data up-to-date and have to extract only a very small
subset of the data available.

Does MapQuest have interest in maps from around the world, or is this
more a 'we provide maps for those we can advertise to'?  If Mapquest
wanted to show off the usefulness of OSM data, wouldnt you be using data
from Europe or Asia, or for that matter, any place where a bulk of the
data was imported directly from a public db (TIGER).

David


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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Toby Murray]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:27 PM, John Mitchell  wrote:
> I tried searching by my home address and it could not find it.  When I tried
> it on Mapquest classic it found that same address.

They use nominatim for their open.mapquest.* sites so if you can find
your house on openstreetmap.org then you should be able to find it on
open.mapquest.*

If you can't, then you need to map it! Works for me. Although I don't
think nominatim understands saying  "in"  - rather you
can use a comma or nothing at all between the street name and the
city.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] open.mapquest.com launched for the US

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 09:22:15 +0800
Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Elizabeth Dodd 
> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with David, that this shows a view of the world which is
> > distorted, ignoring Asia where most humans actually reside, and
> > ignoring Africa at the same time.
> > A useful thing would be an honest comparison of what is available
> > through Mapquest through their original sources of data, and what is
> > available if Mapquest uses OSM.
> 
> Liz and David,
> 
> Mapquest does use the whole world's data in their Open Mapquest sites.
> They just roll out country-specific sites to provide proper
> localization. But all of the world's data is available on any of their
> Open websites.
> 
> In fact, I can go to any of the Open websites, scroll over to my
> country, and get driving directions:
> http://open.mapquest.com/link/8-Ua19
> 
> In addition, since they don't have data for my country from other
> providers, they show OSM data instead in their main (non-Open)
> website, though only as tiles.
> 
> Eugene

Thanks Eugene, that's very interesting, and a far different slant than
that provided by emails announcing specific sites for specific areas.
I can't check it properly at present as my internet is flaky since we
had rain (and some flooding) but will do so later.

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