Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 06/22/11 02:15, David Murn wrote:

Im pretty sure that 99.5% of users would never be sued if they put an
OSM map onto their website without proper attribution too, that doesnt
mean that we shouldnt talk about it, or move the conversation to some
obscure list where even the name is enough to scare interested people
away.


Discussion about what kind of attribution is adequate is a typical 
legal-talk topic. That legal-talk was "some obscure list" is entirely in 
your head and has no basis in reality. The only people who cannot make 
the distinction are those who - mistakenly - believe that just because 
something is important to them it must be important to everyone.



I for one am interested to know the answer to these sorts of questions,


Great. Read legal-talk then.

Bye
Frederik

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[OSM-talk] Random thoughts

[Ed Loach]

Thanks to the draft community news on the wiki I've been drawn back
onto this list after reading the thread Nop started on Monday. What
brings me back is considering what the community can do to help
advance to phase 5 *without* remapping. 

I have been in contact with a couple of mappers who were showing as
not responded (using the Authors panel in JOSM, before P2.2 launch)
who mapped near here before I became involved with the project and
haven't been involved much recently (since they finished at
university it seems). I suspected they might not have received any
emails about the change or even be aware of it, which indeed proved
to be the case (the first mapper I tracked down on Facebook, who was
still in touch with the second - both happily relicenced their
contributions). There are 2 others I'm trying to contact which are
proving more difficult; one I'm trying to contact via a local mapper
who once mentioned knowing them, though I've not heard from that
mapper either recently (though they have agreed to relicence); the
other I have only so far tried contacting via OSM messaging. Both
edited in the earlier days of the project and haven't edited
recently, so my hunch is their account linked email addresses are
outdated.

Now I don't want to suggest we contact all the people still showing
as undecided as some presumably have their reasons for not yet
deciding either way, and many *will* have received the emails sent
out already. What I was wondering is how technically feasible it
would be to show on the www.osm.org/user page for any given user
whether emails to them about the licence change had bounced. This
doesn't reveal the email address (so no personal information given
out), but would help those who want to try and track down the
"missing" contributors know that there is a good chance they won't
be aware of the change yet. It might also be that this is something
I should have suggested before the emails were sent to make
reporting the bouncing status easier to record (if it isn't already
on record).

I do hesitate to suggest this as I realise the volunteers are all
busy and I am unable to help with patches as I don't even begin to
understand how integrated rails is with whatever
sends/processes/receives emails. I just felt that if such a patch
were possible it would offer those of us who could try and help
track people down know where to target our efforts in a positive
way, rather than delete and re-enter data which I personally feel is
wrong (though what will be lost locally I suspect will be minimal).
I'm also a bit concerned about the vagueness of the plan to move to
phase 5; if a user deletes a tainted way which a non-agreer touched
at say v3 and the process reverts it to v2 then the way will return,
so deleting it manually now and adding another copy might make
things worse rather than better. Far better to wait until the
proposed steps are finalised to see what will happen, in my opinion,
while trying to maximise acceptances.

Anyway, I'll try and stay on this list to see what replies I get. I
usually manage 2 or 3 days on this list before disabling mail
delivery as I get so frustrated at some of the bickering I see ;)

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Floris Looijesteijn]

Some extra information for the non-Dutch:
'Recently' is this monday. NL stands for The Netherlands.

Every Dutch IT company is protesting the way this ridiculous law is
introduced and it has not yet been fully approved yet.

But since Openstreetmap is not a Dutch company I don't see why they
should adhere to our laws.

Greets,
Floris

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:52 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen  wrote:

>  I discovered that openstreetmap.org  stores
>
> (flash) cookies on our computers.
>
> ** **
>
> Since recently  was decided that in NL 
>
> cookies are subject to explicit permission of
>
> the users, I’d think that Openstreetmap provides
>
> information on what information and settings are
>
> actually used by OSM.
>
> ** **
>
> If you want to check the settings for your computer
>
> regarding flash cookies, look here:
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager09.html
> 
>
> ** **
>
> And that is the information released by Macromedia/Adobe only.
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Gert Gremmen
>
> -
>
> [image: Osm]
>
> Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
>
> P* Before printing, think about the environment.* 
>
> ** **
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Richard Fairhurst]

ce-test, "qualified" testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
> Since recently  was decided that in NL 
> cookies are subject to explicit permission of
> the users, I'd think that Openstreetmap provides
> information on what information and settings are
> actually used by OSM.

Ok then.

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next. 

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Markus Lindholm]

On 22 June 2011 12:19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
> because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
> preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
> function key settings) from one session to the next.

But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
all cookies when I close the browser.

/Markus

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Richard Fairhurst]

Markus Lindholm wrote:
> But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
> log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
> all cookies when I close the browser.

That works for osm.org but not on a third-party Potlatch deployment, where
it would require the user to authenticate with OSM on opening Potlatch
rather than on first save - not so friendly.

I tend to take the position that people who are worried about privacy to
the extent of blocking all cookies are natural JOSM users. ;)

cheers
Richard




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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Damian Steer]

On 22 Jun 2011, at 10:54, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:

> Some extra information for the non-Dutch:
> 'Recently' is this monday. NL stands for The Netherlands.
> 
> Every Dutch IT company is protesting the way this ridiculous law is
> introduced and it has not yet been fully approved yet.
> 
> But since Openstreetmap is not a Dutch company I don't see why they
> should adhere to our laws.

It's presumably an implementation of an EU-wide directive. [1]  It's certainly 
an issue with the UK [2][3] and pretty much everyone seems to be unprepared, 
which puts OSM firmly in the mainstream ;-)

Damian

[1] 

[2] 

[3] 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Chris Hill]

On 22/06/11 11:19, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

ce-test, "qualified" testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:

Since recently  was decided that in NL
cookies are subject to explicit permission of
the users, I'd think that Openstreetmap provides
information on what information and settings are
actually used by OSM.

Ok then.

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next.



The European directive came into force in the UK (where the servers are 
located) in May 2011. The bluster about this in the press has often 
missed a vital point, that is that para 4 says cookies are exempt if 
they are ‘strictly

necessary’ for a service requested by the user.

The situation is not clear, but it seems to me that is a suitable 
exemption for Potlatch's cookies. If data-gathering cookies, such as 
Analytics, were being used then an opt-in would certainly be required, 
but exactly when and how this might be enforced is yet to be clarified.


There is a fuller explanation from the UK's Information Commissioner's 
Office in a pdf here 


Further discussion should probably go onto @legal-talk, IMHO.

--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[David Murn]

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 12:08 +0100, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Markus Lindholm wrote:
> > But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
> > log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
> > all cookies when I close the browser.
> 
> That works for osm.org but not on a third-party Potlatch deployment, where
> it would require the user to authenticate with OSM on opening Potlatch
> rather than on first save - not so friendly.

It also means that your settings are saved per machine rather than per
user, so if Im editing on my laptop then change to my desktop, my
potlatch settings may be different even though Im editing with the same
user account.  Maybe with this new legislation, its worth looking at
some option in the user settings, whether to pass stored settings from
the server to potlatch or whether to use cookies.

Everytime I edit, Im asked to authenticate with OSM before opening
potlatch, is that not normal?


On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 12:15 +0100, Chris Hill wrote:
> 
> Further discussion should probably go onto @legal-talk, IMHO.

Is that the new mailing list users are being directed to for all threads
longer than 5 messages now?  Maybe it should be directed to talk-eu
since it only affects the EU?  Maybe it should be directed to talk-dev
since it might be a situation for the developers to make some changes.
Or, maybe its of enough interest to enough people that it should stay in
general discussion.

Seriously, its starting to get seriously tiring when everyone tries to
divert every thread to legal-talk and Im pretty sure those users on that
list would be getting tired of seeing messages that dont belong on that
list.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Steve Doerr]

On 22/06/2011 11:19, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next.



That sounds good. In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want to use the UK 
postcode layer, I have to add it manually every time.


--
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Leaflet 0.2 released

[pavithran]

On 22 June 2011 03:03, Vladimir Agafonkin  wrote:
> Leaflet, a new JavaScript library for interactive maps by CloudMade,
> recently reached version 0.2.

Thank you .
 /me likes # Improved panning performance in Chrome and FF
considerably with the help of requestAnimationFrame. #130

Regards,
pavithran

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http://look-pavi.blogspot.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Richard Fairhurst]

Steve Doerr wrote:
> In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
> backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want 
> to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually 
> every time.

Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
mailing lists gets forgotten. :)

cheers
Richard



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[OSM-talk] Error on uploads again....

[Douglas Musaazi]

Hi, this is Douglas again, from the mapping day event (www.mappingday.com) 
sponsored by mountbatten (www.mountbatten.net), there was an improvement the 
last time i reported this error, and let me thank you for your efforts that you 
made to rectify the problem. However, we are once again experiencing the 
following errors:
http://paperwalking-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/
and
http://walkingpapers.org/scan.php?id=gbdch8q8


help us resolve it and we go ahead with our task of mapping Uganda. Thanks
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[OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file

[ThomasB]

Dear Legal-list,

My question applies to all kind of software that process OSM data but I am
using Garmin maps as a popular example.

Generating Garmin maps with contours is pretty easy and sometimes completely
GUI driven. You select an OSM file, click a button and get a Garmin map. I
have distributed such maps sometimes (for free) to some interested people
who asked me.
In the background it downloads SRTM data from cgiar.org (Consultative Group
on International Agricultural Research) and seeds that data into the OSM
data. I think technically they are added as normal osm-ways with specials
tags for the renderer. The cgiar data is non-commercial only (cc-by-sa-nc)
licensed. The final Garmin map is rendered from a temporary file that
contains both datasets and would constitute a Derivative Database. 
My point is that a user of software, and this is not limited to Garmin map
software, may not know what a software does in the background i.e. if it is
creating a (temporary) Derivative Database, a Collective Database or
whatever. It is unrealistic that a user of software browses through the
directories and check the content of the files there, particularly if the
file exist only a short time during the process. So applying the ODbL rules
to software generated temporary files would lead me to the conclusion that
the solution is "don't ask, don't mind". Although I personally could live
with that I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to sort it out.  
The Trivial Transformations Guideline or Community Guidelines could be a
good place to make it easier. I am neither a license expert nor a lawyer.
From a practical point of view I would wish a clarification like:
/"Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that 
i) contain data from OSM, 
ii) may contain data from other (licensed) sources, 
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database,
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter,
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available 
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work"/

But I am not sure about any other (unwanted) implication it may have.


Kind regards
Thomas 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Adam Hoyle]

Hey Richard,

Sorry to be dumb/lazy, and I'm sure you've told me before, but please can you 
point me at the Potlatch2 trac/svn etc.

thnx,

Adam

On 22 Jun 2011, at 13:54, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Steve Doerr wrote:
>> In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
>> backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want 
>> to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually 
>> every time.
> 
> Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
> mailing lists gets forgotten. :)
> 
> cheers
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Richard Fairhurst]

Adam Hoyle wrote:
> Sorry to be dumb/lazy, and I'm sure you've told me before, but please can
> you point me at the Potlatch2 trac/svn etc.

trac is the same for all of OSM: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ . Make
sure to select "potlatch2" as the component. And only set the priority to
"critical" if it causes your computer to catch fire or "major" if it
deletes whole cities from OSM without any human intervention whatsoever.
:)

Source code is in git these days: my repository is at
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2 . There's documentation on the
Potlatch 2 pages on the wiki.

cheers
Richard




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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file

[ThomasB]

David Groom wrote:
> 
> As far as I can see, ignoring your specific example, and genearlising, the 
> "unwanted implication" of your clarification above would be that as long
> as 
> someone deleted the derivate database they had created they could then
> claim 
> it was "temporary" and therefore sidestep the requirements of the ODbL to 
> distribute it.  To avoid this you would thenhave to start defining 
> "temporary" etc.
> 

Thanks David. Good point. I think the intention is to avoid that someone mix
OSM with proprietary data and makes a produced work out of it without
sharing the proprietary data.
So let me rephrase it and restrict a bit more

/"Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that 
i) contain data from OSM, 
ii) may contain data from other sources that are
  a) free and open licensed /(hope there is a definition for that anywhere)/
and
  b) publicly available
iii) do not contain any proprietary data
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database, 
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter, 
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available 
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work" 
/


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[OSM-legal-talk] When goes a "community guideline" change rather than explain a licence

[David Groom]

When goes a "community guideline" change rather than explain a licence?

There are a number of "community guideline" pages on the wiki.

Some of these pages do clearly seem simply to explain how the ODbL should be 
interpreted, such as "We can clearly define things that are USUALLY Produced 
Works: .PNG, JPG, .PDF, SVG images" [1]


However on the Trival Transformations guideline page [2] there are some 
examples which rather than explaining the interpretation of ODbL do in fact 
seem to negate some of the clauses in ODbL **.   Now I accept that as 
presently written the Trivial Transformations guideline page seems in fact 
to offer no guidelines, but merely asks a series of questions (i.e. it gives 
examples to which no answers are currently given), but I assume at some 
point this page will be translated into actual "guidelines".


So in essence my question is "when does a 'guideline' which seeks to exempt 
something from the consequences of a the ODbL, become a change to the 
licence rather than an explanation of it?"


Regards

David

[1] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Produced_Work_-_Guideline
[2] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline


** the general thrust of a number of the examples sees to be that the 
generation of extracts of the database that does not have any additional 
information added to it, should not be required to adhere to clause 4.6 of 
ODbL. 






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Re: [OSM-talk] Random thoughts (Ed Loach)

[Donald Campbell II]

That's a nice little discovery you made there.  And in fact I've missed
credit card notices and things like that due to updated email addresses or
over-zealous SPAM filters.

Perhaps given the amount of work that would be and also the fact that we
don't want to SPAM people that simply don't want to be involved anymore the
list of unresponded contributors could be sorted by number of edits. That
way the people who are personally investigated would be a maximum "return on
investment" of time and if many of the larger ones are successfully
contacted then perhaps the still missing contributors will be those who
weren't very active and didn't do much editing.  Wouldn't want to delete
half a country if someone merely changed their email and were too busy with
life to stay active in the community.  I'm glad I've joined the lists and
know what's going on or 90% of Guyana would be deleted if I didn't approve
the license change.  Otherwise that would be a huge loss and I'm sure most
people just don't care about the license arguments and just want their work
to not go to waste.  I would be pretty upset if years of work were deleted
because I didn't get the emails.

-Don.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL

[Paul Houle]

 On 6/21/2011 4:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


We have a specalist mailing list, legal-talk, to discuss these matters.

However, in this particular question you are unlikely to find a firm 
answer, given that the question whether temporary files constitute a 
proper manifestation of data or are just an implementation detail of 
an algorithm is something that lots of lawyers are discussing (see 
current cases about streaming media and if consumers need a copyright 
license).


I try to stay out of this argument,  but I'd advise everyone to 
carefully read the text above,  and then read it again.


If I wanted to spend my time talking to lawyers (and could afford 
it) I'd be building applications with Teleatlas and similar data 
sources.  There's no end to the involvement of lawyers,  salespersons 
and other parasites there.


People who want to build applications gravitate towards open data 
precisely because they can escape this BS and be engineers.


Fred has just made a brilliant explanation of why the license 
change is an attempt of the OSMF to commit suicide.  Ten years from 
now,  OSM may well be like Usenet or DOS,  fondly remembered but part of 
the past.  It didn't have to be this way,  and frankly,  the same effect 
of the license change could have been had by just deleting all the 
data,  selling the servers,  and letting the domain names expire and be 
bought by domainers -- except this way people are going to keep wasting 
their time on a project that's been failed.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Steve Doerr]

On 22/06/2011 13:54, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Steve Doerr wrote:

In that case, could it be made to remember custom
backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want
to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually
every time.

Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
mailing lists gets forgotten. :)


Done: Ticket #3855.

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Kai Krueger]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> 
> OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies.
> 
OSM doesn't store anything in Flash cookies, but I suspect the law doesn't
say anything about flash specific cookies, but cookies in general ( I
haven't looked at the law though yet, or even read a synopsis of it ). OSM
does use cookies to store session data and the position of where the map was
last positioned.


Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>  
>  Potlatch does. That's because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants
> to remember your preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER
> highlighting, function key settings) from one session to the next. 
> 

Should it become necessary, it would probably be "fairly easy" to change
Potlatch to not need cookies. (But I am not a Potlatch programmer, so I
might be totally wrong)

The API already has a way to store arbitrary user preferences on the server
( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Preferences ) which the
editors like Potlatch could use to store any of these preferences (in case
they aren't already doing this ). So once you are logged in, you no longer
need cookies.

This leaves the information to log in. Potlatch 2 on osm.org doesn't need to
store any info for authentication, as it can get the necessary data from the
server (if I understand it correctly). This is a little more tricky with
third party potlatch 2 versions that don't use accounts on the third pary
site. The Problem there is, if I understand it correctly, mainly the need to
store the OAuth token.

However, if the osm server was patched to return the same OAuth token
(without needing to ask the user again for permission) rather than recreate
a new token everytime, if the same client/user combination has asked for a
token before, then it would probably not be necessary to store any login
info on the client side, which would hopefully mean no need for cookies.

Kai

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file

[David Groom]

- Original Message - 
From: "ThomasB" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community 
Guidelines for temporary file






David Groom wrote:


As far as I can see, ignoring your specific example, and genearlising, 
the

"unwanted implication" of your clarification above would be that as long
as
someone deleted the derivate database they had created they could then
claim
it was "temporary" and therefore sidestep the requirements of the ODbL to
distribute it.  To avoid this you would thenhave to start defining
"temporary" etc.



Thanks David. Good point. I think the intention is to avoid that someone 
mix

OSM with proprietary data and makes a produced work out of it without
sharing the proprietary data.
So let me rephrase it and restrict a bit more

/"Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that
i) contain data from OSM,
ii) may contain data from other sources that are
 a) free and open licensed /(hope there is a definition for that 
anywhere)/

and
 b) publicly available
iii) do not contain any proprietary data
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database,
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter,
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work"
/



I think that the above wording has the same implications as the points I 
have summarised on my latest post to this list with the subject line "When 
goes a 'community guideline' change rather than explain a licence".


Incidentally my post was not written in response to your earlier post, it 
was a query I already had, but it may indicate the timeliness of my post.


David



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL

[Ed Avis]

I would like to suggest the continuation of dual-licensing under CC-BY-SA in
addition to ODbL.  Then, anyone who is currently making use of OSM will be able
to continue doing so with no legal worries.  There would then be a choice of two
ways to use the OSM map data:

- old-style share-alike: your final result must be distributed under CC-BY-SA
  (which is fine for many in the existing OSM community, but not attractive to
  many commercial users)

- new-style 'produced work' under ODbL: you don't have to distribute the final
  work under any particular licence, but you must share the derived database and
  tools needed.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - 23rd June 2011

[Kai Krueger]

I would like to send a reminder that there will be Server downtime tomorrow,
23rd June, between approximately 7:30 GMT/UTC and 19:30 GMT due to planned
engineering works (relocation of the servers to a different data-center).

During this time no editing will be possible.


Grant Slater wrote:
> 
> Please copy this to local lists as appropriate.
> 
> Thursday 7:30am (23rd June 2011 GMT/UTC+0) the API and map editing on
> www.openstreetmap.org will be unavailable. The maintenance period is
> expected to last for 12 hours.
> 
> The following services will be unavailable during the maintenance period:
> API, editing features of www.openstreetmap.org and
> planet.openstreetmap.org including replication diffs.
> 
> The wiki, mailing lists and help.openstreetmap.org will be unaffected.
> 
> Technical: Some of the core servers are being re-located to another
> data-centre.
> 
> Additional information will be posted to the following link closer to the
> time:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/June_2011_Maintenance
> 
> / Grant
> Part of the OSM sysadmin team.
> 
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[OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Jaakko Helleranta.com]

Hi all,

This may well be my first post to the talk list so let me very briefly
introduce myself.

I started mapping with OSM beginning of 2008 as what I'd say mostly a
"vacation/travel mapper" + mapping some home corners -- that is, until the
earth quake in Haiti last year.

The quake spiked my interest to OSM and was part of the reason why I ended
up moving here last September (working on something else but using a good
chunk of my time on OSM).

But to go to the point:

Browsing a little with the new license status option of Potlatch 2.2 I'm
seeing unfortunately lot of red on the map (and some orange, too).

So what?

As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the
world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.

The thing is that what many have reported and what I've seen first hand OSM
has made and keeps on making a clearly positive difference not only in
crisis response but also in peoples' everyday lives for growing numbers of
people especially in countries like Haiti.

While I fully respect everybody's decision to do (including allow not to do)
what ever they want with their contributions I want to raise a
thought/question (in case no one has before) that it would be an awful shame
if we'd have to trash as much data from OSM, the _only_ good map of Haiti!,
as the coloring of the map implies, eih?

So, two things:

1) I want to ask if it's possible to allow (and then persuade! :) users that
have declined to the license / CTs as well as those that are still undecided
and are leaning to not allowing to allow OSM to continue using their data
for specific areas (without them having to "fully accept" the change)?
I'm thinking humanitarian crisis areas but this could be extended in
whatever ways.
But to make my real point clear I want to re-articulate my thought:

This is, in some areas, a clear humanitarian issue and can be a matter of
life or death (as it has been in Haiti - and a number of other areas).

2) Big thanks to Ed Loach for the idea of contacting the undecided and Don
Campbell for keeping the thread floating (which is only when it really sunk
to my head). I'll definitely use this to try to persuade some decliners (but
only after I hopefully hear thoughts to the 1st point) ... and hope that we
have enough time to do this before any purging of data begins!

To conclude my post I want to warmly and deeply thank _everyone_ (regardless
of what you think of the license issue / CTs) who has been contributing to
OSM and creating this incredible project -- and changing the world while at
it! I've talked with so many people that have absolutely amazed and
incredibly thankful for the OSM community contribution in Haiti that I've
lost track a long ago. Most heart-warming have been those that have had a
more direct and "crucial" benefit from OSM (as in soon after the quake) but
there have been so many others ranging from business owners who can to
private people who can -- first time ever -- to give perfect directions to
exactly where they are; and all other kinds. It's really uplifting.

And that in mind, please let's not allow minor -- or even major! --
differences in our opinions to harm the thing that I understand really at
the bottom of things unites us: the desire will to create an (as) Open (as
possible) map of the world.

Cheers from Haiti,
-Jaakko
http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh
--
jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +509-37-269154  *
http://go.hel.cc/MyProfile
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Adam Hoyle]

On 22 Jun 2011, at 14:55, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

>  Make
> sure to select "potlatch2" as the component. And only set the priority to
> "critical" if it causes your computer to catch fire or "major" if it
> deletes whole cities from OSM without any human intervention whatsoever.
> :)

a bug report about a computer catching fire from a flash app is AWESOME - do 
you get many of those ;-)

> Source code is in git these days: my repository is at
> https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2 . There's documentation on the
> Potlatch 2 pages on the wiki.

excellent, cloning as I type this :-)

ttfn,

adam
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[80n]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com <
jaa...@helleranta.com> wrote:

>
>
> As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the
> world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.
>
> That's why fosm.org exists.  No data will get deleted.  It will continue
to exist and can be updated at fosm.org.

If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you are
now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already and
will continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new updates
directly.

OSM is not trying to punish anyone, its just that the community thinks that
less data under a different license is better for them.  If you are happy
with the way things were then you don't have to lose anything, just change
your URL from osm.org to fosm.org.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[SteveC]

How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue to 
sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?

Steve


On Jun 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, 80n wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the 
> world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.
> 
> That's why fosm.org exists.  No data will get deleted.  It will continue to 
> exist and can be updated at fosm.org.
> 
> If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you are 
> now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already and will 
> continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new updates 
> directly.
> 
> OSM is not trying to punish anyone, its just that the community thinks that 
> less data under a different license is better for them.  If you are happy 
> with the way things were then you don't have to lose anything, just change 
> your URL from osm.org to fosm.org.
> 
> 80n
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Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Jaakko Helleranta.com]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM, John Smith wrote:

> Haiti is one small area, most of the time people that copy from google
> don't have permission.
>

I understand. And so is the humanitarian issue (vs. all mapping done in OSM)
a "small area". But that was what I was talking about. The fact that you
wanted to answer to something else was your choice.

As per tracing from Google in general (outside humanitarian crises), the
answer is simple: redraw geometries as needed and if names are involved,
check,those from legal sources or survey.
No rocket science in this?


> Why don't you urge OSM-F to stick with the current license, after all
> it's the OSM-F pushing for a license change that will end up causing
> data loss.
>

Because I warmly agree with the points in favor of the license change. Yes,
there's inconveniences in the change because of various things including
that people don't believe that it will succeed (which is what OSM has been
up against since the very beginning, eih?).
But the points in favor are very valid and I'm sure the change will succeed
& protect greater good over time. That is, ensure that the Commons is not
abused.

Cheers,
-Jaakko
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Fabio Alessandro Locati]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:31 PM, SteveC  wrote:
> How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue to 
> sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
I think they will stop it as soon as last CC dump is released

Fabio

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Nic Roets]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com
 wrote:
> ... and hope that we have enough time to do this before any purging of data 
> begins!

Jaakko,

I really want to know when that will occur (purging without
resurveying within a reasonable time frame). The LWG said that is a
"community decision". I assume that that implies that the Haiti
community (you and your collaborators) can decide by themselves how to
proceed.

Some cities or regions may never see the need to delete non-compliant
data. What will then happen ? The only way I can see that the global
community can make a decision for a local city or region in an orderly
fashion is by a global vote. The whole process could take years.

Regards,
Nic

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

80n wrote:
That's why fosm.org  exists.  No data will get 
deleted.  It will continue to exist and can be updated at fosm.org 
.


If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you 
are now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already 
and will continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new 
updates directly.


If someone is only worried about data being deleted, then they can 
simply take the CC-BY-SA planet dump and run with it.


If someone doesn't want to go that "static" route because he wants to 
further participate in the large community updating OSM's data, then 
Fosm won't be any help after OSM changes its license.


Unless of course Fosm could somehow manage to persuade many people to 
contribute to Fosm instead of OSM; which I assume is the basic message 
in this post.


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map 
Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in 
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[80n]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC  wrote:

> How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
> to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
>

1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.
2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
will be a long time yet.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC > wrote:


How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional)
continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?


1. fosm.org  is functional, you should try it.


I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM shows you 
maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan 
suggests it will be a long time yet.


Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop 
using OSM then when it occurs.


Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 08:51:43PM +0100, 80n wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC  wrote:
> 
> > How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
> > to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
> >
> 
> 1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.
> 2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
> will be a long time yet.

Which is a shame - The longer the period the more difficult it'll get to 
sync osm and fosm as people start pushing changes in both areas - read -
multi master.

A couple days ago OSM (Or better the OSM Foundation) started to dislike my
contributions so i'd need to start contributing to fosm which in turn will
make it more difficult to take contributions from OSM. 

The longer the OSM Foundation delays the deletions and relicensing the more
it hurts both projects.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Richard Fairhurst]

jaakkoh wrote:
> This may well be my first post to the talk list 

Brave soul. :) (But welcome, seriously.)

> Browsing a little with the new license status option of Potlatch 2.2 
> I'm seeing unfortunately lot of red on the map (and some orange, 
> too).

Don't get too disheartened.

To take your second point first, in my experience most people are actually
pretty amenable to being contacted. A lot will simply not have noticed the
original mail. Others may have seen it but not realised that it's really
something they need to respond to. Personal contact saying "hi, I'd really
like to keep your data" means a lot.

When you do manage to contact them, the 98.5% agree/1.5% split (of those
who've responded thus far) suggests that in most cases they'll be happy for
the data to continue through to ODbL+CT - so it'll probably be ok.

If not, as David Groom mentioned, the idea of allowing people to say "I
relicense these bits, but not those" was once mooted - along the lines of
what you suggested. There wasn't much take-up but I see no reason why it
couldn't be resurrected if really needed. It doesn't even need to be part of
the formal relicensing process: you or I or anyone could write a tool that
deleted a problematic object, and recreated it with a clean history, _if_
all the contributors gave their permission to the tool author (and
documented the permission). But I do genuinely think it won't be necessary:
most people are happy to click 'Agree' if you ask.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Mike Dupont]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC  wrote:
>
>> How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
>> to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
>>
>
> 1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.
>
>
> I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM shows you
> maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.
>

did you see this?
http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html


>
>
>   2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests
> it will be a long time yet.
>
>
> Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
> using OSM then when it occurs.
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[80n]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

> On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
>
2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
> will be a long time yet.
>
>
> Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
> using OSM then when it occurs.
>

Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all
non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the final
switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't ever
actually get to do it?

>From here on in, OSM loses ground against fosm.org.  The mass deletions in
OSM (if they ever happen) will put OSM further behind.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[ThomasB]

Mike  Dupont wrote:
> 
> did you see this?
> http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html
> 

do you mean the "picture coming soon" at zoom level 7 or 8? Are you really
planing to use pre-rendered tiles at archive.org for the whole world,
updated by a handful local computers a la BOINC forever?


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[ThomasB]

80n wrote:
> 
> From here on in, OSM loses ground against fosm.org.  
> 

quite obvious
http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count_2.png

You may be a bit confused with the scales.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast > wrote:


On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan
suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to
stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all 
non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the 
final switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't 
ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[80n]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
>
>>  On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
>>
>  2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests
>> it will be a long time yet.
>>
>>
>>  Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
>> using OSM then when it occurs.
>>
>
> Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all
> non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the final
> switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't ever
> actually get to do it?
>
>
> Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.
>

A: We will definitely stop using OSM as soon as OSM switches to ODbL for
it's output.
Q: Now when will that be?

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 1:46 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Steve Coast > wrote:




On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:

On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current
plan suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll
have to stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to
delete all non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long
time before the final switchover.  What is the point of all this
nonsense if you don't ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.


A: We will definitely stop using OSM as soon as OSM switches to ODbL 
for it's output.


Thanks


Q: Now when will that be?


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to give 
you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.


Steve




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[OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[PJ Houser]

Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.

In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and update
OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to OpenTripPlanner (
http://opentripplanner.org/,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, and
will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure streets have
correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections have turn
restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails and pedestrian
routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip planner is multi-modal,
meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and transit, and combinations
thereof. Anyways, the point is...

We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike routes as
highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers highway=cycleway.
What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish between a cycleway and
multi-use path?

Terms:
Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway "The
highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for
bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not
restricted to cyclists."
Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath "This tag is
used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway, highway=cycleway,
and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not
sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They
might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several
different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated
keys. It is also used for hiking trails."

Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between highway=cycleway
and highway=path:
Eastbank Esplanade
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105&action=ViewPark
Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.

Traffic stats:
In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows
that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to 50% of the
traffic.
http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778&a=292746

Thanks!
--
PJ Houser
Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Simon Poole]

I would suggest posting to talk-de, the resulting discussion will keep 
you occupied the next couple of months :-)


Seriously, essentially the combinations with highway=(track,path) and 
bicycle=designated and highway=cycleway plus individual access tags for 
other vehicles/usage are  equivalent and which you prefer is nearly 
purely a matter of taste.


In some countries (ie Germany, Switzerland) bicycle=designated has the 
implication that the way has to be used by bicycles (in Germany it's 
"slightly" more complicated), I assume that's not the case in the states.


Simon


Am 22.06.2011 23:25, schrieb PJ Houser:

Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm 
hoping a bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.


In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet 
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and 
update OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to 
OpenTripPlanner (http://opentripplanner.org/, 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, 
and will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure 
streets have correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections 
have turn restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails 
and pedestrian routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip 
planner is multi-modal, meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and 
transit, and combinations thereof. Anyways, the point is...


We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike 
routes as highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers 
highway=cycleway. What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish 
between a cycleway and multi-use path?


Terms:
Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway 
"The highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or 
exclusively for bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path 
if use is not restricted to cyclists."
Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath "This tag 
is used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway, 
highway=cycleway, and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or 
inadequate (or simply not sufficient), but which are nonetheless 
usable for travel or navigation. They might be not intended for any 
particular use, or intended for several different uses. Intended uses 
can be indicated with the access=designated keys. It is also used for 
hiking trails."


Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between 
highway=cycleway and highway=path:
Eastbank Esplanade 
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105&action=ViewPark 

Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path 
http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings 
http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.


Traffic stats:
In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails 
shows that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to 
50% of the traffic. 
http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778&a=292746 


Thanks!
--
PJ Houser
Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Ian]

My rule of thumb has been to use highway=path + more precise access tags 
when known and to use highway=cycleway when the path is signed as a 
cycle-only path (in the Twin Cities they do this with bicycle symbols on 
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Nathan Edgars II]

SimonPoole wrote:
> 
> In some countries (ie Germany, Switzerland) bicycle=designated has the 
> implication that the way has to be used by bicycles (in Germany it's 
> "slightly" more complicated), I assume that's not the case in the states.
> 
Depends on the state (and sometimes the city):
http://bicycledriving.org/law/guide-to-improving-laws#sidepath
I can't see any way to tag a mandatory sidepath correctly with access tags,
since one is presumably allowed to use the roadway to make a turn that can't
be made from the sidepath (so bicycle=destination is incorrect).

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Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Simon Poole]

Am 23.06.2011 00:04, schrieb Nathan Edgars II:

SimonPoole wrote:

In some countries (ie Germany, Switzerland) bicycle=designated has the
implication that the way has to be used by bicycles (in Germany it's
"slightly" more complicated), I assume that's not the case in the states.


Depends on the state (and sometimes the city):
http://bicycledriving.org/law/guide-to-improving-laws#sidepath
I can't see any way to tag a mandatory sidepath correctly with access tags,
since one is presumably allowed to use the roadway to make a turn that can't
be made from the sidepath (so bicycle=destination is incorrect).


In general in German speaking Europe, the requirement to use what ever 
is signposted as a mandatory cycleway goes only as far as it is actually 
going in your direction. So you are always allowed to use a junction or 
similar to leave the cycleway and go wherever necessary if the cycleway 
can't get you there. It is difficult to compare the European situation 
to the states, since road layout and use tends to be very very 
different, and mandatory sidepath usage is more similar to having to 
ride on the side of the road than mandatory cycleway usage (which are 
very often completely separate ways).


Just a further remark: instead of "designated", "official" is in use in 
Germany to indicate mandatory use cycleways that are really really 
mandatory (as I said, Germany is "slightly" more complicated).


Simon

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Richard Mann]

In the UK, we don't really have a concept of a cycle-only path -
they're pretty much all shared with pedestrians.

So we tend to stick with highway=cycleway if bikes are significant /
obviously catered for, and highway=footway + bicycle=yes|permissive if
it's really a bit poor, but bikes seem to be using it with no
objection. highway=path is mostly used for worn tracks across grass or
out in the countryside.

The wiki is only as good as the last person who edited it.

{So my advice is use whichever and don't fret about it unless there's
some important distinction you want to make - and then you'd probably
be better off inventing a brand new key for that important
distinction, so that people don't mess it up}

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 10:25 PM, PJ Houser
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
> bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.
>
> In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and update
> OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to OpenTripPlanner
> (http://opentripplanner.org/,
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, and
> will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure streets have
> correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections have turn
> restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails and pedestrian
> routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip planner is multi-modal,
> meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and transit, and combinations
> thereof. Anyways, the point is...
>
> We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike routes as
> highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers highway=cycleway.
> What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish between a cycleway and
> multi-use path?
>
> Terms:
> Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway "The
> highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for
> bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not
> restricted to cyclists."
> Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath "This tag is
> used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway, highway=cycleway,
> and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not
> sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They
> might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several
> different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated
> keys. It is also used for hiking trails."
>
> Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between highway=cycleway
> and highway=path:
> Eastbank Esplanade
> http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105&action=ViewPark
> Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
> http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
> Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
> http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.
>
> Traffic stats:
> In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows
> that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to 50% of the
> traffic.
> http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778&a=292746
>
> Thanks!
> --
> PJ Houser
> Trimet
> GIS intern
> username: PJ Houser
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[john whelan]

One of the advantages of OSM is you can tag anything with what ever tag you
like.  One of the great drawbacks of OSM is you can tag anything with what
ever tag you like.

For Ottawa I used Maperitive and imported a local OSM database. Then I used
the export tags command to export a list of tags in CSV format.  Now you get
to the tricky bit.

What you need is either local agreement or your own local version of the
corrected map ie OSM file, or what also seems to be acceptable is correcting
to the list here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Feature_Index.

For local agreement you need a few bodies, so announce a meetup in talk-us
then take a vote.  It doesn't seem to matter if you only have two or three
people present the others had the opportunity to make their views known.

For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a good
cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe.  We also have multiuse
paths which tagged with all sorts of things.

I created an off line map based on OSM that shows cycle routes.  What I
learnt was you need to line up the routing software with the map.  So
depending how much control you have on the routing software depends on what
you want the map to say.  If you can make the routing software accept that
one or two or three conditions is a valid cycle route then life is fairly
easy.  If not then you figure out what it needs call a local OSM meetup of
mappers and put it to the vote.  Then you clean up the OSM map as per the
vote.

If you are doing routing on a server then displaying the results on a web
site don't forget that OSM files are XML so you can edit them.  Search for
this string and replace with that string and it doesn't really matter what
is in the official OSM database your local version of the database is
correct for the routing software.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WkJzx5NffRv0TIQgCFFGTQzyqbQ9XDphSLqcjuM8wGM/edit?hl=en_US

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 17:25, PJ Houser  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
> bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.
>
> In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and update
> OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to OpenTripPlanner (
> http://opentripplanner.org/,
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, and
> will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure streets have
> correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections have turn
> restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails and pedestrian
> routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip planner is multi-modal,
> meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and transit, and combinations
> thereof. Anyways, the point is...
>
> We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike routes
> as highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers
> highway=cycleway. What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish between
> a cycleway and multi-use path?
>
> Terms:
> Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway "The
> highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for
> bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not
> restricted to cyclists."
> Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath "This tag is
> used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway, highway=cycleway,
> and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not
> sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They
> might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several
> different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated
> keys. It is also used for hiking trails."
>
> Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between
> highway=cycleway and highway=path:
> Eastbank Esplanade
> http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105&action=ViewPark
> Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
> http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
> Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
> http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.
>
> Traffic stats:
> In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows
> that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to 50% of the
> traffic.
> http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778&a=292746
>
> Thanks!
> --
> PJ Houser
> Trimet
> GIS intern
> username: PJ Houser
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[Simon Poole]

Am 23.06.2011 00:31, schrieb john whelan:


For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a 
good cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe.  We also 
have multiuse paths which tagged with all sorts of things.
Nearly all motorways in Europe (that's a bit of a blanket statement) 
have paved shoulders, but (another blanket statement) since motorways 
are a big no no* for bicycles, they are not relevant for bicycle routing.


Simon

* and that is very very sensible

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[David Murn]

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map 
> Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in 
> OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only 
available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.


On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[David Murn]

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

> Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
> give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
the way they generally have been, with refusal.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

[john whelan]

Locally they dump snow on them in winter.  At minus thirty for some reason
we don't get many cyclists probably because of the snow banks on the paved
shoulder.  A cycle lane by the side of the road is different, they get
ploughed in winter and even at minus thirty you see a few cyclists, I think
its 4% of the summer numbers.

Local conditions vary, as a cyclist you want to know if the shoulder is
paved its safer especially in the summer and they are paved specifically for
cyclist but sort of seasonal.

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 18:41, Simon Poole  wrote:

> Am 23.06.2011 00:31, schrieb john whelan:
>
>
>> For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a good
>> cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe.  We also have multiuse
>> paths which tagged with all sorts of things.
>>
> Nearly all motorways in Europe (that's a bit of a blanket statement) have
> paved shoulders, but (another blanket statement) since motorways are a big
> no no* for bicycles, they are not relevant for bicycle routing.
>
> Simon
>
> * and that is very very sensible
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

Why do you feel you have a liability?

Steve

On 6/22/2011 4:29 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
the way they generally have been, with refusal.

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[john whelan]

I absolutely agree.

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 19:29, David Murn  wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
>
> > Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
> > give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.
>
> Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
> wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
> generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
> trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
> with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
> non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
> the way they generally have been, with refusal.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

David Murn wrote:

Except that


[...]

My argument rested on the potential consequences for OSM: Someone pops 
up on an OSM list and says "why don't you all go elsewhere"?


For this argument, it doesn't matter if the other thing has the same 
roots, the same technology, or the same general idea; the other thing 
might be superior in every regard and *still* it have a bad taste to it 
if the creators of the other were to cast their net on OSM mailing lists.



The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other


Can you give a definition of "small subset"?


Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.


Oh, I think it is perfectly ok to take a snapshot of all our tiles the 
day before the changeover and make them available somewhere. In fact I 
was thinking that OSM would do so themselves, maybe even offer old 
CC-BY-SA tiles and new updated tiles as a choice on openstreetmap.org. 
Of course if fosm.org does that already then maybe it is unnecessary to 
do it twice.


I am not so much concerned about data at all; I am concerned about 
community members and I would hate to see an effort to smear OSM's 
reputation in order to get people to contribute to another, 
incompatible project - whether that is Google Map Maker, or a superior 
open source endeavour.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[SomeoneElse]

On 22/06/2011 21:22, Mike Dupont wrote:



On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Steve Coast > wrote:




On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:

How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being
functional) continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are
incompatible?


1. fosm.org  is functional, you should try it.


I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM
shows you maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


did you see this?
http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html





Odd.  zoom in to the dizzy heights of 16 (in Denmark WA FWIW) and you 
get "picture coming soon".   I picked Denmark because it's somewhere 
that I've been and added stuff (to OSM, but would also like to see the 
likes of FOSM using that same data too).  Competion is good.  It seems a 
bit of a shame that the forkers are being let down by a rather poor 
implementation (or so it seems) so far.



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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[David Murn]

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:25 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
> Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only 
> available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.

Does the data exclusively available under the ODbL outweigh the data
exclusively available under CC?  Since not even OSM uses the ODbL yet, I
find it totally amazing that any other entity would be.

Also..

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:35 -0700, Steve Coast wrote: 
> Why do you feel you have a liability?

Because I have used data from a source which cannot be relicenced.  Id
feel the same way if Id taken OSM data and put it into another external
project, which was then planning to change its licence and take the OSM
data along with it.

Personally, I dont have a liability as I was aware early enough that my
contributions couldnt be relicenced.  Unfortunately some people have
accepted the CTS without fully understanding that they didnt have the
rights to relicence the data.  The fact of having each individual user
accept contributor terms, means that effectively you have passed the
liability directly onto the user who contributed the 'offending' data
rather than the foundation who refuse to remove the data in the first
place.

David

> On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
> >> Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in
> >> OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"
> > Except that
> >
> > a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
> > b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
> > licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
> > degraded map)
> > c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
> > fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
> > time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
> > fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
> > solved', youre more on-track to the situation
> >
> > The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
> > and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
> > the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
> > had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
> > maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
> > seeing complete maps.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

SomeoneElse wrote:
Odd.  zoom in to the dizzy heights of 16 (in Denmark WA FWIW) and you 
get "picture coming soon".   I picked Denmark because it's somewhere 
that I've been and added stuff (to OSM, but would also like to see the 
likes of FOSM using that same data too).  Competion is good.  It seems a 
bit of a shame that the forkers are being let down by a rather poor 
implementation (or so it seems) so far.


Just be patient. The world on zoom level 18 has 100 billion tiles with 
an estimated data volume of 450 terabytes. It takes a while to upload 
them all to archive.org!


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Markus Lindholm
 wrote:
> But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
> log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
> all cookies when I close the browser.

So out of curiosity, the proposed law says it's ok to store user
preferences server side, but not in the browser? That doesn't make any
sense at all, from a privacy perspective.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On 23 June 2011 03:55, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Markus Lindholm
>  wrote:
>> But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
>> log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
>> all cookies when I close the browser.
>
> So out of curiosity, the proposed law says it's ok to store user
> preferences server side, but not in the browser? That doesn't make any
> sense at all, from a privacy perspective.

Not exactly. What the proposal says is that you need to tell people
you're using a cookie and why you're using it and presumably let them
know they can opt out. At which point you can probably tell them that
they'll just get the default settings every time. You only need to ask
them once. (though how you're going to track that without a cookie I
have no idea).

When you store data about a person on the server you're also supposed
to tell the user you're doing that and allow them to view/delete it.

This new proposal is the kind of law you get when you let people who
know little about technology decide things. They somehow got the idea
that only advertisers use cookies, and they use them to track
people

Mvg,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout  http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

I do not have the (dutch) law at hand, do you?, but I believed this
was for tracking cookies and third party cookies only.
I suppose that the full implementation of this
directive/law requires browser interaction and ultimately
intervention by MS/Google/Mozilla and others.


Firefox has a number of privacy options for standard cookies
and a number of plug-ins about cookies and notable a simple one for
flash cookies. It deletes flash cookies on exit of the browser. 
While this might not be in line with the law exactly, it fulfils
the function for most user, unless you let your browser open all the time. 

So probably the cooky used by potlact are not so much a concern,
as long as it's function is notified (site? / Help? / popup?)
to the user.

I suggest that Openstreet add a tab regarding privacy of it's users
where these types of things are mentioned. 

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Martijn van Oosterhout [mailto:klep...@gmail.com] 
Verzonden: Thursday, June 23, 2011 8:32 AM
Aan: Steve Bennett
CC: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

On 23 June 2011 03:55, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Markus Lindholm
>  wrote:
>> But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
>> log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
>> all cookies when I close the browser.
>
> So out of curiosity, the proposed law says it's ok to store user
> preferences server side, but not in the browser? That doesn't make any
> sense at all, from a privacy perspective.

Not exactly. What the proposal says is that you need to tell people
you're using a cookie and why you're using it and presumably let them
know they can opt out. At which point you can probably tell them that
they'll just get the default settings every time. You only need to ask
them once. (though how you're going to track that without a cookie I
have no idea).

When you store data about a person on the server you're also supposed
to tell the user you're doing that and allow them to view/delete it.

This new proposal is the kind of law you get when you let people who
know little about technology decide things. They somehow got the idea
that only advertisers use cookies, and they use them to track
people

Mvg,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout  http://svana.org/kleptog/

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