Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > why is this a value in the key: > maxspeed:wet=40 > couldn't you interpret "maxspeed:wet" as a key? The maxspeed in wet > condition? Could you explain the problem that arises (I am not an > informatics person and maybe for this don't understand these details > adhoc). I gather that a value is something that can take an infinite number of values. e.g. A time can be 00:00:00.0, 00:00:00.01, etc. "Wet" is a weather condition. There are an infinite number of "weather conditions" - this may not be immediately obvious, but what would you answer if I asked you "how many weather conditions are there?" It is desirable to have a finite number of keys. That way, you can, for example, list all of the keys supported by OSM without having to use placeholders like maxspeed: or maxspeed:. It also makes it easier for computer programs to use the keys - they can use a simple switch statement/table lookup on the key, then do any necessary parsing on the value field only. You could argue that you could explicitly support maxspeed:wet, but that makes about as much sense as supporting maxspeed[12:00-14:00] and not maxspeed[12:11-13:11] (i.e. not much). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Lars Aronsson wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >> For general time based restrictions you can still do it in one >> line if you must, without needing to parse variable information >> in the key section: >> >> maxspeed:time=12:00-23:59;tu,th;50 >> hh:mm-hh:mm;[dd,dd,dd|dd-dd];speed > > > The second sign in this page > http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datumparkering > > says parking forbidden on Wednesdays 9-15 o'clock > but only between December 1 and May 15 (snow removal season). This is very interesting. Question: does a "school zone" restriction or a "snow removal season" restriction need to be explicitly marked as such, or is it only important that the applicability (e.g. dates/times) and effect (e.g. maxspeed) be specified? If it doesn't need to be explicitly marked, I would suggest the following, as I did before, to cover both of these cases (and others that may arise in future): : = ;, where the format of depends only on . The beauty of this scheme is that for BOTH RESTRICTIONS: = time (meaning the tag is only applicable at certain times), and = [,]* (note you don't need a separate date range - it's all wrapped up in the time range) (NOTE: I think I've got the format of time ranges below correct according to opening_hours, but please, someone check this. The specification of an OSM time range is an important yet separate issue, anyways.) Now, within this framework, for the snow removal restriction: = no_parking (is there actually a no_parking restriction yet? Regardless, it does/would fit into this framework perfectly) = yes (meaning no_parking=yes) = Dec 01-May 15 We 09:00-15:00 On one line: no_parking:time = Dec 01-May 15 We 09:00-15:00;yes For the school zone: = maxspeed = 40 (i.e the maxspeed in kmph) = school_terms school_days 07:00-09:00,14:30-15:30 On one line: maxspeed:time = school_terms school_days 07:00-09:00,14:30-15:30;40 And yes, you can see that the specification of "time range" needs to allow not only for explicit date ranges, but also labels like "school_terms" and "school_days". But this IMHO is a nicer way to deal with things - i.e. if what you're actually doing is introducing a new kind of label for a date range and a new way to infer the actual values from administrative boundaries, document this fact as such, separate from any particular new tag. It's no more complicated than the current proposal, looks great on a single line IMHO, and can be extended very nicely. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:12 PM, John Smith wrote: > > --- On Fri, 7/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > >> I don't like the _1 and _2, but I guess you're saying >> that's the only > > I didn't come up with it, it's already being used for other similar things > where the same tag appears multiple times. Ah, that's good, then. >> maxspeed:school_zone=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx >> and >> maxspeed:time=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx > > maxspeed:school_zone wouldn't need days, this should be stored in an > administrative boundary that covers when the school zone would be in effect. Yes, true. This is an effect of "the format of depends only on ". > All values are made up and not real, but an example for boundary tags could > be: > > admin_level=4 > boundary=administrative > ... > school_days=mon-fri > school_terms=20090128-20090321,20090401-20090701, > > MMDD Sounds good to me. These tags should be proposed independent of school_zone as they're useful in themselves. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
2009/8/7 Roy Wallace : > By the way, the outcome of this discussion could well be applicable to > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags > i.e., what we have so far for school_zone could be generalised to: +1, if we find something more useful than the current proposal we should ad it as a contrubution to the wiki (maybe on another page but linked from the above proposal) > But there is an obvious problem: you may want two values for the same key, > e.g. > maxspeed:weather = wet;80 and > maxspeed:weather = snow;30 > > I'm guessing this is not OK? yes, this is no longer supported in api 0.6 > Actually. won't this often be a > problem if you insist on not putting values in the key? How would you > say maxspeed is 40 between 7am-9am, 60 between 4pm-7pm, and 80 > otherwise? +1, I can't really see the point of not putting values in keys actually. Aren't we already doing this in many tags? why is this a value in the key: maxspeed:wet=40 couldn't you interpret "maxspeed:wet" as a key? The maxspeed in wet condition? Could you explain the problem that arises (I am not an informatics person and maybe for this don't understand these details adhoc). Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
John Smith wrote: > For general time based restrictions you can still do it in one > line if you must, without needing to parse variable information > in the key section: > > maxspeed:time=12:00-23:59;tu,th;50 > hh:mm-hh:mm;[dd,dd,dd|dd-dd];speed The second sign in this page http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datumparkering says parking forbidden on Wednesdays 9-15 o'clock but only between December 1 and May 15 (snow removal season). -- Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Fri, 7/8/09, "Marc Schütz" wrote: > Let me rephrase the question: if it is possible to devise a > tagging scheme that is able to model all relevant > restrictions we encounter in reality including school zones > (and I believe it is possible), why do you still want a > seperate tagging scheme for the latter? Because I don't think a suitable scheme is possible in reality. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
> > But that's the point! We need a way of modelling more > > complex cases anyway, so why do you want to special case > > school zones? > > School zones are a special case because they don't operate all year round, > and you need to store school terms in addition so you can calculate if the > school zone is in effect. Let me rephrase the question: if it is possible to devise a tagging scheme that is able to model all relevant restrictions we encounter in reality including school zones (and I believe it is possible), why do you still want a seperate tagging scheme for the latter? Regards, Marc -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Fri, 7/8/09, "Marc Schütz" wrote: > But that's the point! We need a way of modelling more > complex cases anyway, so why do you want to special case > school zones? School zones are a special case because they don't operate all year round, and you need to store school terms in addition so you can calculate if the school zone is in effect. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
Original-Nachricht > Datum: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 02:55:05 + (GMT) > Von: John Smith > An: m...@koppenhoefer.com, Roy Wallace > CC: talk@openstreetmap.org > Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email) > > --- On Thu, 6/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > > > maxspeed[school_days][08:30-09:30]=40 > > Except that is putting values on the key side of things. To do things > properly you would need something like this. > > maxspeed:school_zone=40 > maxspeed:school_zone:on=08:30-09:30;14:30-15:30 No, you're still putting a value on the key side (the reason). To really handle this properly, I would suggest using a relation: type=property maxspeed=40 when=08:30.../school_days/whatever reason=school_zone This would the apply to all members of that relation. And it is general enough that you could use it for anything you like, not only for restrictions. Its meaning is simply, that all the tags on the relation should apply to all its members. Regards, Marc -- Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
> > problem if you insist on not putting values in the key? How > > would you > > say maxspeed is 40 between 7am-9am, 60 between 4pm-7pm, and > > 80 > > otherwise? > > It's going to get very messy very quickly if you are trying to shoe horn > general time limits in with school zones But that's the point! We need a way of modelling more complex cases anyway, so why do you want to special case school zones? Regards, Marc -- Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Fri, 7/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > I don't like the _1 and _2, but I guess you're saying > that's the only I didn't come up with it, it's already being used for other similar things where the same tag appears multiple times. > maxspeed:school_zone=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx > and > maxspeed:time=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx maxspeed:school_zone wouldn't need days, this should be stored in an administrative boundary that covers when the school zone would be in effect. All values are made up and not real, but an example for boundary tags could be: admin_level=4 boundary=administrative ... school_days=mon-fri school_terms=20090128-20090321,20090401-20090701, MMDD ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 4:22 PM, John Smith wrote: > It's going to get very messy very quickly if you are trying to shoe horn > general time limits in with school zones, but you could do: > > maxspeed=80 > maxspeed:time_1=school;07:00-09:00,14:30-15:30;mon-fri;40 > maxspeed:time_2=all;16:00-19:00;mon-fri;60 I was not proposing that a school zone restriction must be shoe horn'ed in with a general time limit - you could have: maxspeed=80 maxspeed:school_zone=07:00-09:00,14:30-15:30;40 maxspeed:time_1=07:00-09:00;40 maxspeed:time_2=16:00-19:00;60 I don't like the _1 and _2, but I guess you're saying that's the only way to make sure you keep ALL the values in the value field (which you seem to be advocating)? > Actually the whole idea of getting all values into a single line probably > will only serve to make a mess of it completely. Perhaps, though IMHO the multi-tag school_zone proposal is 1) not entirely un-messy, 2) more importantly, does not seem to fit into any sort of existing or proposed framework for other access tags. > So now we're at this: > > maxspeed:time=reason;hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx More like: maxspeed:school_zone=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx and maxspeed:time=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx Keep in mind that this format is actually quite simple and intuitive, and I would argue gives a good framework for other access tags with conditions: : = ;, where the format of depends only on . I'm gonna leave this thread be for now, I've said enough. What do others think? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
> But there is an obvious problem: you may want two values > for the same key, e.g. > maxspeed:weather = wet;80 and > maxspeed:weather = snow;30 > > I'm guessing this is not OK? Actually. won't this > often be a You would have to have some sophisticated routing software to know weather in the first place. I wonder if the computer interface on most modern cars supplies information on what the wipers are doing and also hook into any temperature sensor. If it is possible to get some information out of the car computer you could check for things like maxspeed:weather_1, maxspeed:weather_2 etc > problem if you insist on not putting values in the key? How > would you > say maxspeed is 40 between 7am-9am, 60 between 4pm-7pm, and > 80 > otherwise? It's going to get very messy very quickly if you are trying to shoe horn general time limits in with school zones, but you could do: maxspeed=80 maxspeed:time_1=school;07:00-09:00,14:30-15:30;mon-fri;40 maxspeed:time_2=all;16:00-19:00;mon-fri;60 Actually the whole idea of getting all values into a single line probably will only serve to make a mess of it completely. So now we're at this: maxspeed:time=reason;hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm]*;[dd-dd|dd,dd,dd];xxx If you wanted to really cover all bases you could stipulate dates, not just days of the week, for example in Sydney they often close the city down to all traffic except public buses and taxis. They even erect signs ahead of time, not just on electronic signs. As I said this could get really messy really quickly if you followed all logical arguments through to their full extent. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:12 PM, John Smith wrote: > maxspeed:school_zone=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm];speed > This explains what the restriction is, school zone, the times it is in effect > and the reduced speed all in one line. That is much better than the current proposal IMHO, good job. Just to demonstrate, the example in that format is: maxspeed:school_zone=08:30-09:30,14:30-15:30;40 > school zones are a corner case and I don't think you should try to shoe horn > them into a general time restriction since they don't operate during school > holidays. Yeah I know what you mean. The options are either 1) have two kinds of restrictions (time and school_zone) or 2) extend the time syntax to include "school_day" as well as the usual "day" identifiers (Mo, Tu, We, etc.). You are suggesting that the first is better, which is subjective. By the way, the outcome of this discussion could well be applicable to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags i.e., what we have so far for school_zone could be generalised to: : = ;, where X = the standard tag (maxspeed, or access, or bicycle, etc.) K = the kind of limits of applicability L = the limits of applicability (in an appropriate format according to K) V = the value of the limit (e.g. yes/no, speed in kmph, etc.) So you would have, for the examples at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags maxspeed = 100 maxspeed:school_zone = 08:30-09:30,14:30-15:30;40 maxspeed:vehicle = hgv;60 maxspeed:weather = wet;80 bicycle:time = 10:00-18:00;no access:weight = >5.5;destination maxspeed:vehicle = hgv;120 maxspeed:vehicle:time = hgv;Sa,Su;80 In the last example, the format is extended to: :: = ;; which seems fine. But there is an obvious problem: you may want two values for the same key, e.g. maxspeed:weather = wet;80 and maxspeed:weather = snow;30 I'm guessing this is not OK? Actually. won't this often be a problem if you insist on not putting values in the key? How would you say maxspeed is 40 between 7am-9am, 60 between 4pm-7pm, and 80 otherwise? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Fri, 7/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > Hmm ok, fair enough, you've convinced me - although you'd > probably > want to use maxspeed:time_limited to indicate that the > value is not a > "time", but a full description of a "time-limited" > restriction. It's a limit so stating limited is redundant, otherwise you'd use maxspeed:wet_limited maxspeed:hvg_limited > Ok - if you've made up your mind on that, then fair enough. > My only > suggestion, then, would be to replace school_zone_on and > school_zone_maxspeed with school_zone:on and > school_zone:maxspeed. I wasn't disagreeing with using maxspeed:school_zone, this seems to make sense, however school_zones are a special case where what days and times the school zones in that area are in effect would vary by year, so you place the school holiday information in an appropriate administrative boundary, where as the zone in question only needs to store the time. maxspeed:school_zone=hh:mm-hh:mm[,hh:mm-hh:mm];speed This explains what the restriction is, school zone, the times it is in effect and the reduced speed all in one line. school zones are a corner case and I don't think you should try to shoe horn them into a general time restriction since they don't operate during school holidays. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 2:42 PM, John Smith wrote: > --- On Thu, 6/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > >> Without that requirement, it's a one-liner: >> maxspeed[Tu,Th][12:00-24:00] = 50 > > You've gone from school zones to general restrictions. That's right. Sorry if that was unclear. I tried to explain by saying "perhaps we should tag the effect of the school zone (i.e. a maxspeed restriction) rather than the school zone itself. Though this preference is subjective, it would avoid the need for an extra, redundant tag, making it easier for users (e.g. routers) to parse the data." (sorry to repeat myself). > For general time based restrictions you can still do it in one line if you > must, without needing to parse variable information in the key section: > > maxspeed:time=12:00-23:59;tu,th;50 > > hh:mm-hh:mm;[dd,dd,dd|dd-dd];speed Hmm ok, fair enough, you've convinced me - although you'd probably want to use maxspeed:time_limited to indicate that the value is not a "time", but a full description of a "time-limited" restriction. > However I'm primarily concerned with recording information on school zones as > I see on signs, not general time restrictions, someone else can do up a > proposal for that. Ok - if you've made up your mind on that, then fair enough. My only suggestion, then, would be to replace school_zone_on and school_zone_maxspeed with school_zone:on and school_zone:maxspeed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Thu, 6/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > Without that requirement, it's a one-liner: > maxspeed[Tu,Th][12:00-24:00] = 50 You've gone from school zones to general restrictions. School zones as signed in Australia are predicable to some extent, they are always mon-fri and only when there isn't a school holiday. For general time based restrictions you can still do it in one line if you must, without needing to parse variable information in the key section: maxspeed:time=12:00-23:59;tu,th;50 hh:mm-hh:mm;[dd,dd,dd|dd-dd];speed However I'm primarily concerned with recording information on school zones as I see on signs, not general time restrictions, someone else can do up a proposal for that. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:55 PM, John Smith wrote: > --- On Thu, 6/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > >> maxspeed[school_days][08:30-09:30]=40 > > Except that is putting values on the key side of things. To do things > properly you would need something like this. > > maxspeed:school_zone=40 > maxspeed:school_zone:on=08:30-09:30;14:30-15:30 Hmm I'm still undecided whether it really is necessary to enforce a finite set of keys (i.e. force "putting values on the value side of things"). But ok, if you think it is, my main point is still an issue: perhaps we should explicitly state that the restriction applies on "school days" rather than indirectly implying this by using "school_zone". And by the way, in the example you gave, you seem to be using "school_zone" as a placeholder/ID, i.e. a means to link the two tags together. Looking at things more generally what's really happening is: maxspeed:foo=40 maxspeed:foo:on:day=school_days maxspeed:foo:on:time=08:30-09:30;14:30-15:30 This is the problem with enforcing "values" (i.e. continuous values) to be on the right hand side - you need a primary key to join tags. To clarify my point further, how would you propose to tag a 50 kmph maxspeed on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons, if you are forced to put the "values" (i.e. Tuesday, Thursday, 50, 12:00-24:00) on the right hand side? Without that requirement, it's a one-liner: maxspeed[Tu,Th][12:00-24:00] = 50 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Thu, 6/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > maxspeed[school_days][08:30-09:30]=40 Except that is putting values on the key side of things. To do things properly you would need something like this. maxspeed:school_zone=40 maxspeed:school_zone:on=08:30-09:30;14:30-15:30 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2009/8/6 Liz : >> On Thu, 6 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >>> there could be >>> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 >>> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 >>> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone >>> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone ... > So either you need explicitly 2 conditions (some tag for AND > school-day=true, like in the wiki proposal maxspeed[hgv][Sa,Su] = 80) > or you interpret the above, that you could implicitly see from the > reason that it is only valid on school-days. I think Martin does have a point, that perhaps we should tag the effect of the school zone (i.e. a maxspeed restriction) rather than the school zone itself. Though this preference is subjective, it would avoid the need for an extra, redundant tag, making it easier for users (e.g. routers) to parse the data. Either way, the meaning of "school days" has to be determined. For this, I prefer something like the following: maxspeed[school_days][08:30-09:30]=40 which is really quite a simple format: maxspeed[][] rather than requiring inference from a separate ":reason" tag. ":reason=school_zone" is more ambiguous than a tag that explicitly states the restriction only applies on school days. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
2009/8/6 Liz : > On Thu, 6 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> this doesn't look very familiar to me. Do you know the following? >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_ >>tags >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_fo >>r_access_tags >> >> there could be >> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 >> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 >> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone >> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone >> >> cheers, >> Martin > > Martin, its only 5 days a week and not in school holidays > so how do we expand the tagging to cover the full set of restrictions? Yes, I thought that it was like that. According to this example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Vandalised_School_Zone_sign.jpg it is valid on "school-days" only. So either you need explicitly 2 conditions (some tag for AND school-day=true, like in the wiki proposal maxspeed[hgv][Sa,Su] = 80) or you interpret the above, that you could implicitly see from the reason that it is only valid on school-days. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Thu, 6/8/09, Liz wrote: > Martin, its only 5 days a week and not in school holidays > so how do we expand the tagging to cover the full set of > restrictions? No matter what happens school holidays or the inverse can be mapped to some administrative boundary. Western areas of NSW have different school holiday times, or used to, to eastern areas due to high temps over summer, and the NSW govt not funding aircon units. Although if they build schools underground the temps would be 22C all year round and wouldn't need heating or cooling. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > this doesn't look very familiar to me. Do you know the following? > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_ >tags > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_fo >r_access_tags > > there could be > maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 > maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 > maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone > maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone > > cheers, > Martin Martin, its only 5 days a week and not in school holidays so how do we expand the tagging to cover the full set of restrictions? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Roy Wallace wrote: > Not really John, although "difficult" is subjective... just > extract > whatever is in []'s first, then parse as normal. Having two > different > forms of "time" (i.e. HHMM and HH:MM) seems a bit > unnecessary. There is justification for use both ways. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-July/039374.html Also the time is a value not a static key, so it shouldn't probably be stored as a key. Comments section of this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Craig Wallace wrote: > Though the colon is already used for the time syntax for > the > opening_hours key: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours > That's a fairly well used key, so it makes sense for the > restrictions > time syntax to be consistent. The colon appears on the value side only, the other person was suggesting to use it in the key side which would make parsing much more difficult. To be consistent you would need to have a lot more key/value pairs and put it on the same side as opening hours is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Craig Wallace wrote: > Also, what if you don't know what time the school zone > applies? > Around here, they usually just have a sign with "20 when > lights flash" > or similar. I assume its at typical school times, but how > would I tag that? School signs in several if not all states of Australia have the time on the sign, but you can't read the sign to know if it's applicable until you get to it which is insane. Most/all governments refuse to spend the money putting flashing lights up on most/all school zones. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Vandalised_School_Zone_sign.jpg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
On 06/08/2009 02:02, John Smith wrote: > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> this doesn't look very familiar to me. Do you know the >> following? >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_tags >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags >> >> there could be >> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 >> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 >> maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone >> maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone >> > The problem with this is the multiple use of : would make it more difficult > to split, if anything you'd ditch the colon completely for time, since it is > used already for maxspeed:wet etc. > > maxspeed[0830-0930]=40 > maxspeed[1430-1530]=40 > maxspeed[0830-0930]:reason=school_zone > maxspeed[1430-1530]:reason=school_zone > Though the colon is already used for the time syntax for the opening_hours key: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours That's a fairly well used key, so it makes sense for the restrictions time syntax to be consistent. Also, what if you don't know what time the school zone applies? Around here, they usually just have a sign with "20 when lights flash" or similar. I assume its at typical school times, but how would I tag that? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > in the end there will be only one maxspeed at the same > time. I agree, but my point was there could be a combination of restrictions at the same time, but obviously one must take precedence over the others and that will be the trick to this, making everything work together. > this doesn't look very familiar to me. Do you know the > following? > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_tags > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags > > there could be > maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 > maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 > maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone > maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone The problem with this is the multiple use of : would make it more difficult to split, if anything you'd ditch the colon completely for time, since it is used already for maxspeed:wet etc. maxspeed[0830-0930]=40 maxspeed[1430-1530]=40 maxspeed[0830-0930]:reason=school_zone maxspeed[1430-1530]:reason=school_zone ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
2009/8/5 John Smith : > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > >> but on second glance there are, and they are documented in >> the >> discussion-section: >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:restriction%3Dschool_zone > > The problem with those suggestions is they don't take into account multiple > rules so everything would be lumped into a simple set in the end there will be only one maxspeed at the same time. # restriction=school_zone # school_zone_on=08:30-09:30;14:30-15:30 # school_zone_maxspeed=40 this doesn't look very familiar to me. Do you know the following? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_tags http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags there could be maxspeed[08:30-09:30]=40 maxspeed[14:30-15:30]=40 maxspeed[08:30-09:30]:reason=school_zone maxspeed[14:30-15:30]:reason=school_zone cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [RFC] restriction=school_zone (second email)
Since proposing this tag combination I've tagged about a dozen schools and at first glance I can't see any problems. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:restriction%3Dschool_zone ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
