Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi Ilya, Am 2017-10-08 um 14:53 schrieb Ilya Zverev: > Michael, this is the first time I'm hearing about that light_rail > controversy. It is documented somewhere? If not, why does it make my proposal > worse? Dig a little bit in the history of the wiki page and you will see the edit wars. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Public_Transport&action=history The current version contains light_rail. Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Thanks Frederik, I did exactly that in the "What This Affects" chapter of the proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping#What_This_Affects Basically it introduces (revives) stop_area_group relations and suggest using entrance=* on subway_entrances. Of course I could just silently create it in the main namespace and pretend it was there from the start. But when the page is announced like a proposal, we get a discussion that helps make it better. I have already got many comments that lead to many fixes in the page. Michael, this is the first time I'm hearing about that light_rail controversy. It is documented somewhere? If not, why does it make my proposal worse? Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Ilya, as a relative public transport outsider I have read your proposal and it claimed to "merely document existing practice" and "clarify" some things. I thought: That's great but why does it need a vote then? Now I read from Roland, who I know is heavily involved in railway mapping, that your proposal "conflicts with well-established mapping rules". I think that it is very important that, if you ever want to put this to a vote, people know whether they are voting for a change of things, or just for a "clarification" of existing vagueness. I'd really appreciate a compilation of exactly what I would be voting for if I voted to accept the proposal. If people are told that they are just voting for a "clarification" of existing rules and later find out that they actually voted to change what Roland calls "well-established mapping rules", that would render the whole voting process moot. It shouldn't be too difficult to compile a factual list of where exactly (if anywhere) your proposal actually aims to *change* something rather than just *clarify*, and crucially it should be possible for those in the know, including you and Roland, to agree that this list is correct. Should your proposal be voted on and accepted, it would also be good to modify any existing wiki pages accordingly, and ideally the proposal could already contain the changes to be made: "Page XYZ will be amended with this, page ABC will be clarified as follows, and paragraph so-and-so on page ZXY will be removed". Roland, the things you have pointed out in your message sound like relatively minor issues that could be fixed in the proposal, rather than leading to outright rejection. Ilya has said that his aim is not to add more contradictions and confusions - so if you help him to refine the proposal so it doesn't do that, everyone should win? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi,
Am 2017-10-07 um 09:11 schrieb Roland Olbricht:
> I strongly suggest to oppose the proposal. To do so, you need to add
>
> {{vote|no}} --[[User:|]] date
>
> under the headline == Voting == once voting is opened. Said in short:
> Adding more contradictions and confusion in public transport mapping
> makes a too complex topic worse in terms of complexity.
>
> In detail, there is a whole bunch of reasons
>
> […]
I agree with the reasons given by Roland although I would not write them
that harsh.
There is another reason why I oppose. The proposals suggests the usage
of light_rail=yes and route=light_rail but the Public Transport version
2 schema it is based on does not contain the route type "light_rail".
That type was added after the voting (not by the author of the
proposal). I don't really know why the original proposal does not
contain this type but "light_rail" was abused a lot at that time
(2010/2011), mainly for many German S-Bahn systems which are normal trains.
Thank you, user Weide, for pointing me to this issue.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=666777#p666777
Best regards
Michael
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Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi Roland. I sense a lot of hostility in your message. This is actually the first time in my OSM experience that I see a call to (negative) voting in this list. Even weirder that the voting won't start for a week or so. > Adding more contradictions and confusion in public transport mapping makes a > too complex topic worse in terms of complexity. Awesome: the page that tries to compile all the practices is making it worse and too complex. I wonder why nobody else have done it in six years since the proposal has been accepted. > - The proposal conflicts with well-established mapping rules. The tag "layer" > is explicitly not to use on railway stations <...> Ah, I see. I missed your reply at the discussion page from the 5th. Sorry for that, I'll update the proposal shortly to reflect this. > - The proposal conflicts with reality. It requires a tag "colour" on lines, > but not all lines have a defined colour. Making colour required may lead > mappers to add fictitious information. To repeat my answer from the discussion page: "official transit systems have official maps, which usually have consistent colours. Do you know of an exception?" Also, it's not hard to find an official subway map. You don't have to go outside for that. > - There are already a couple of established mapping instructions, namely > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport > with details like > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dplatform > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStationMap#Level_of_Details Five pages, 22 screen for four of these and I guess 30 more for OpenRailwayMap. I am trying to make a six-screen reference. All the relevant links are still there. > - The author actively avoids discussion: The proposal has been announced much > later (2017-09-30) than it was opened (2017-09-23). It has not been announced > at all on the relevant mailing list (talk-transit). Even on comments on the > wiki discussion page, only part of them have been adressed. Wait what. The relevant mailing list for proposals is tagging@, and I announced the page on 2017-09-24: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-September/033580.html I did not know about transit@ until you've mentioned it. Is it one of the major ones now, so everyone should know about it and be subscribed to it? "Avoids discussion" — WTF. The discussion page is 20 kilobytes, plus I answer everything in talk@ and tagging@. The ONLY question not answered on the wiki discussion page is yours. I am sorry for that, as I said above, just missed it in the stream of other questions. > All in all I suggest to retract the proposal and rather write a simple set of > instructions based on the existing wiki pages, with the errors in this > proposal then fixed. That is what I did. I will not retract the proposal. > I still do think that Ilya has good intent, and probably the intent was to > have a documentation what maps.me and/or the "validator" recognizes. But > making a wiki proposal is the wrong way to do so Please tell of a correct way to document metro mapping, not through a wiki page. Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi,
I strongly suggest to oppose the proposal. To do so, you need to add
{{vote|no}} --[[User:|]] date
under the headline == Voting == once voting is opened. Said in short:
Adding more contradictions and confusion in public transport mapping
makes a too complex topic worse in terms of complexity.
In detail, there is a whole bunch of reasons
- The proposal conflicts with well-established mapping rules. The tag
"layer" is explicitly not to use on railway stations, as
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:layer tells:
"Ways in buildings (or similar structures like multilevel parking
lots, shopping centers, airports, railway stations, some
multilevel bridges and roads...) should be mostly described with
level=* instead of layer."
- The proposal conflicts with reality. It requires a tag "colour" on
lines, but not all lines have a defined colour. Making colour required
may lead mappers to add fictitious information.
Other examples where the proposal is at odds with reality is that most
subway platforms in the world are on level -2, some on -3. Also,
stop positions are not necessarily meaningful on networks with varying
train lengths.
- There are already a couple of established mapping instructions, namely
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport
with details like
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dplatform
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStationMap#Level_of_Details
Hence, yet another standard makes things more complicated.
- The author actively avoids discussion:
The proposal has been announced much later (2017-09-30) than it was
opened (2017-09-23). It has not been announced at all on the relevant
mailing list (talk-transit).
Even on comments on the wiki discussion page, only part of them have
been adressed.
All in all I suggest to retract the proposal and rather write a simple
set of instructions based on the existing wiki pages, with the errors in
this proposal then fixed.
I still do think that Ilya has good intent, and probably the intent was
to have a documentation what maps.me and/or the "validator" recognizes.
But making a wiki proposal is the wrong way to do so, in particular
given that the software still has the mentioned flaws.
Best regards,
Roland
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Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Michael Reichert wrote: > You are aware that the RFC phase has to bee at least two weeks long? Thanks for reminding that, I indeed think I was too hasty. There are still some unresolved questions, like the one about interchanges (see tagging@). > Why does your validator find lots of errors on the S-Bahn relations in > Berlin? I don't understand what's wrong with: > > > stop node 1806004219 is not connected to a station in route (relation 14981, > "S-Bahnlinie S41: Innenring im Uhrzeigersinn") > > The stop node is on a way referenced by the route relation. That was a bug in the validator: it did not consider stations with railway=halt. I have fixed it just now. > PS I am working on a Public Transport version 2 validator, too. > > https://github.com/geofabrik/osmi_pubtrans3 Awesome, the more validators the better. I check only metro systems, which are harder to map properly than other public transport route types. alan_gr wrote: > I'm not clear how it is decided which systems are included and which aren't. > In Spain, why is Bilbao in while Valencia, Seville, Malaga are out? I can't > see a difference in how the last three are tagged in OSM compared to Bilbao. Thanks Alan for pointing out the missing systems. I used a list from a wikipedia page, and it didn't include light rail networks. I have found the second list, and will add these later. Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Ilya Zverev-2 wrote > Hi again, > Now it has all the systems for Europe Hi, I'm not clear how it is decided which systems are included and which aren't. In Spain, why is Bilbao in while Valencia, Seville, Malaga are out? I can't see a difference in how the last three are tagged in OSM compared to Bilbao. -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi Ilya, Am 30.09.2017 um 18:35 schrieb Ilya Zverev: > I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints the > number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can extract from > the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are updated > manually for now): > > http://osmz.ru/subways/ > > It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european > cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app that > does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging subway > systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: Why does your validator find lots of errors on the S-Bahn relations in Berlin? I don't understand what's wrong with: > stop node 1806004219 is not connected to a station in route (relation 14981, > "S-Bahnlinie S41: Innenring im Uhrzeigersinn") The stop node is on a way referenced by the route relation. Best regards Michael PS I am working on a Public Transport version 2 validator, too. https://github.com/geofabrik/osmi_pubtrans3 -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi Ilya, Am 30.09.2017 um 18:35 schrieb Ilya Zverev: > Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a > voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. You are aware that the RFC phase has to bee at least two weeks long? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi again, I've got some more news regarding the subway validator. It is still there, updated just yesterday: http://osmz.ru/subways/ Now it has all the systems for Europe, Africa and both Americas. I am slowly adding asian cities: there are too many of these, sorry. The link to the spreadsheet with the target numbers is in the site footer. Also, I've published the source code: https://github.com/mapsme/subways You can find there not only the validator / preprocessor code, but also a small script that automatically adds stop_area relations. I've used it on all cities in Russia and Belarus, and it worked great. Needs manual verification, of course, but saves a lot of time. I have it online, but cannot make the link public, for Overpass API will ban it from all of your requests :) I can send it to you privately, of course. Thanks, Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi Daniel, > Nice to see another unification effort, but I have a specific question: we > have an interchange station in Warsaw called "Świętokrzyska". I marked it as > one station some time ago in the middle of lines crossing. > Lately somebody (namely https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/IraSergeeva ) made > it two different points in the middle of each line's waiting area: > - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3390253994 (M1) > - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5117464830 (M2) > How do you think it should be tagged properly? To me, this is a better way of tagging: there is a noticeable transfer time between lines on this station, and platforms are different, so mapping the station as two shows that better. Of course, you can leave it a single station, but in this case, some routers might think there is virtually no time needed to change lines. (Actually it was me who made this edit under Ira's account, while I was showing how to prepare subway stations.) > Plus there is additional error reported about duplication and I'm also unsure > what to do with public_transport=stop_position: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3208963714 (M2) The route https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4232533 the stop_position and the station for Świętokrzyska, and the latter is in the incorrect position. The same for https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4232534 . Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
W dniu 30.09.2017 o 18:35, Ilya Zverev pisze: usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. Nice to see another unification effort, but I have a specific question: we have an interchange station in Warsaw called "Świętokrzyska". I marked it as one station some time ago in the middle of lines crossing. Lately somebody (namely https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/IraSergeeva ) made it two different points in the middle of each line's waiting area: - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3390253994 (M1) - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5117464830 (M2) How do you think it should be tagged properly? Plus there is additional error reported about duplication and I'm also unsure what to do with public_transport=stop_position: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3208963714 (M2) -- "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Nice! I like the detail you guys are applying. Keep up the good work! 2017-09-30 18:35 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev : > Hi, > > I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints the > number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can extract from > the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are updated > manually for now): > > http://osmz.ru/subways/ > > It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european > cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app that > does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging subway > systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping > > Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a > voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of > course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. > > Ilya > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Milo van der Linden web: dogodigi tel: +31-6-16598808 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Cool stuff. I was clicking around and the link to the github repo is either dead or to a private repo. Not sure if this was intentional? \FredrikLindseth On 30. sep. 2017 19:06, Ilya Zverev wrote: My definition of a subway is a network of lines that are marked "subway" on official subway maps. Though validator also processes light rail lines (with obviously similar definition). Ilya 30 сент. 2017 г., в 19:59, john whelan написал(а): Silly question but what is your definition of a subway? Is it different to commuter rail? Thanks John On 30 Sep 2017 12:38 pm, "Ilya Zverev" wrote: Hi, I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints the number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can extract from the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are updated manually for now): http://osmz.ru/subways/ It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app that does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging subway systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
My definition of a subway is a network of lines that are marked "subway" on official subway maps. Though validator also processes light rail lines (with obviously similar definition). Ilya > 30 сент. 2017 г., в 19:59, john whelan написал(а): > > Silly question but what is your definition of a subway? > > Is it different to commuter rail? > > Thanks John > > On 30 Sep 2017 12:38 pm, "Ilya Zverev" wrote: > Hi, > > I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints the > number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can extract from > the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are updated > manually for now): > > http://osmz.ru/subways/ > > It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european > cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app that > does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging subway > systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping > > Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a > voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of > course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. > > Ilya > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Silly question but what is your definition of a subway? Is it different to commuter rail? Thanks John On 30 Sep 2017 12:38 pm, "Ilya Zverev" wrote: > Hi, > > I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints > the number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can > extract from the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are > updated manually for now): > > http://osmz.ru/subways/ > > It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european > cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app > that does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging > subway systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on > this page: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping > > Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a > voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of > course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. > > Ilya > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] All the subway systems in the world
Hi, I have made a script that parses and validates subway systems. It prints the number of subway lines and stations that an automated system can extract from the OpenStreetMap data. See the latest report here (these are updated manually for now): http://osmz.ru/subways/ It is still in beta: it doesn't use networks and omits many non-european cities. We plan to employ it for maps.me, so it would be the first app that does world-wide subway routing using only OSM data. To make tagging subway systems uniform and usable, I've compiled a list of practices on this page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Metro_Mapping Some questions are answered on the Talk page there. Next week I'll open a voting, so that tagging schema could be made official. The validator of course expects that kind of tagging, though it allows for some omissions. Ilya ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
