Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Hi all. I think, we could ask people to provide us with some contact info after note being added. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Bryce - that is a good point. When a note gets resolved, we have the ideal opportunity to engage the casual contributor who is kind enough to leave a note that is good enough for someone to act on. Unfortunately we cannot (easily?) do that the way notes are set up right now. At Telenav we go around that problem by adding a service layer between the notes and the user. When someone submits feedback with Scout, it goes to that service layer, which then determines if it's 'good enough' and posts it to OSM as a note. It keeps track of the OSM status of the note, and gets back to the Scout user when it gets resolved in OSM. (I wrote about this in my diary, http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/28208). This system is tailored to our specific use case but it would not be too hard (famous last words) to add this to 'native' OSM by asking folks to (optionally) leave their email address so we can keep them apprised of its status. On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. I agree, simplicity rules. Some ideas to manage the overkill. While we can build better tools to process large numbers of notes, the one thing we can't do under the current system is ask the person who wrote the note for more information. There's (usually) just one chance to collect that information. And when the map is updated, is an excellent time to draw people back to OSM for a second look (so they can take pride in having contributed). For both reasons I think that getting more contact information outweighs simplicity. -- Martijn van Exel skype: mvexel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: While we can build better tools to process large numbers of notes, the one thing we can't do under the current system is ask the person who wrote the note for more information. There's (usually) just one chance to collect that information. And when the map is updated, is an excellent time to draw people back to OSM for a second look (so they can take pride in having contributed). So require an OSM account for posting notes? -- Alex Barth Vice President OpenStreetMap United States Inc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Alex Barth a...@openstreetmap.us wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: While we can build better tools to process large numbers of notes, the one thing we can't do under the current system is ask the person who wrote the note for more information. There's (usually) just one chance to collect that information. And when the map is updated, is an excellent time to draw people back to OSM for a second look (so they can take pride in having contributed). So require an OSM account for posting notes? No, don't require an OSM account. Not at all. But a craigslist-like anonymous email would work fine. The user enters a real email address, and osm.org promises to forward only map update notices to it (or some version of that). Have a look at the model articulated by Nir Eyal to try and describe why sites like Pinterest and Instagram took off. The model posits that successful properties entice people to take an action (post a note), get a reward (a return email saying the note was useful), they feel a sense of investment and are triggered to make another action (say, another note, or a map edit): http://www.nirandfar.com/2012/03/how-to-manufacture-desire.html The model is not a perfect fit, but it's close. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Bryce - this is an interesting review, thanks for sharing. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: As for Scout, I talked about this in my diary entry http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/28208 some time ago - not all of these are going to be useful and there is going to be noise. We're looking at improving the quality of the notes that make it through - which is already a tiny, tiny fraction the notes we get internally. Only through making mistakes do we learn how to get it right - not by not doing it in the first place. I would say it's a stretch to call this a 'huge waste' of our time - as I write this there are only a little over 100 notes posted on OSM through our Scout users. For the same reason we don't just open a note for map feedback we get from the feedback button on Mapbox maps. Only about ~~1% of all feedback we receive winds up as a note on OpenStreetMap and that only happens after the feedback has been reviewed manually. In general I think it should be easier, not harder, to create notes and Ian's onosm is a good example of how to accomplish that. Adding artificial friction makes no sense to me. Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. I agree, simplicity rules. Some ideas to manage the overkill, not all of this is necessarily stuff that needs to be built into osm.org: - An interface for reviewing notes fast - this would allow for allowing some of us to triage notes. E. g. close them or classify them as needs local knowledge / needs armchair mapping. - A friendly walk through for the first time user. Hey, using notes for the first time? Like we iD does this. Goal: set expectations of what notes are for. - Some ways of dealing with spam (would be useful to quantify some of the issues you found for this) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. I agree, simplicity rules. Some ideas to manage the overkill. While we can build better tools to process large numbers of notes, the one thing we can't do under the current system is ask the person who wrote the note for more information. There's (usually) just one chance to collect that information. And when the map is updated, is an excellent time to draw people back to OSM for a second look (so they can take pride in having contributed). For both reasons I think that getting more contact information outweighs simplicity. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On 22/02/2015, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 9:39 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: I agree with Greg. If the not submitter didn't put a lot of effort into it, then you as a mapper shouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. Unless you feel like solving a puzzle! I'd still at least throw a comment on it and wait a while before outright closing it as unsolvable if it looks like there's some potential to it. Absolutely (for both paragaphs). But the wait a while step would could really do with some help from the notes implementation, to find those notes again after a while. There are a few discussions on github on that subject, but no code has been proposed yet. We're seeingthird-party note-managing tools pop up instead, which is both cool and sad. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 9:39 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Greg Troxel writes: That said, there is a lot of junk. But I just close them if I can't figure them out and if I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be able to if I showed up. I agree with Greg. If the not submitter didn't put a lot of effort into it, then you as a mapper shouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. Unless you feel like solving a puzzle! I'd still at least throw a comment on it and wait a while before outright closing it as unsolvable if it looks like there's some potential to it. We choose to map the planet not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Feb 21, 2015 3:03 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Do we have a graph of how many notes are open? It wouldn't be surprising to see a downward trend in the last few weeks from this change. http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-notes Wow, surprised to see how static it's been. Which makes me wonder what we can do to make this less of a write-only interface and more of a dialogue between casual consumers and hard-core contributors. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Bryce Nesbitt writes: It would be easy enough to run an experiment where the notes interface steps the user through writing a good report, and see what the impact on volume of notes is. Sounds like a job for A/B testing. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
El 20/02/2015 10:42 pm, Michał Brzozowski escribió: On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Perhaps the most frustrating type of note is one where the writer clearly meant to help, but there's just not enough information available to act on it. I can also relate to this. Any help on getting this is appreciated: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/776 Maybe I could do research into an app which would allow for no-frills GPS trace collection and upload to some service (actually this can be done in HTML5 - you can ask specifically for GPS in geolocation API). This way when someone complains about missing roundabout that happens to be yet invisible in aerial photos, we could ask the person to get a trace. People caring about OSM enough to bother getting a trace would add the data themselves. The amount of GPX files uploaders who don't want or cannot contribute data would be too small to this to be worth. Eduardo ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Greg Troxel writes: That said, there is a lot of junk. But I just close them if I can't figure them out and if I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be able to if I showed up. I agree with Greg. If the not submitter didn't put a lot of effort into it, then you as a mapper shouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. Unless you feel like solving a puzzle! If all we give them is a blank white box staring them in the face, what can we expect? It would be easy enough to run an experiment where the notes interface steps the user through writing a good report, and see what the impact on volume of notes is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Greg Troxel writes: That said, there is a lot of junk. But I just close them if I can't figure them out and if I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be able to if I showed up. I agree with Greg. If the not submitter didn't put a lot of effort into it, then you as a mapper shouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. Unless you feel like solving a puzzle! -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Eduardo e...@mayorgalinux.com wrote: Maybe I could do research into an app which would allow for no-frills GPS trace collection and upload to some service (actually this can be done in HTML5 - you can ask specifically for GPS in geolocation API). This way when someone complains about missing roundabout that happens to be yet invisible in aerial photos, we could ask the person to get a trace. People caring about OSM enough to bother getting a trace would add the data themselves. The amount of GPX files uploaders who don't want or cannot contribute data would be too small to this to be worth. Not necessarily. Note making and GPX tracing is part of my routine, every day data collection activity. I try to go back and map through what I've collected data on, but sometimes there's somewhere between a don't know enough about the area and a that trip really sucked and I don't want to revisit it angle. I'd rather have the data I collected available to someone else working on the area in either case rather than just have that knowledge lost because I had a bad or especially draining road trip and just Did Not Care™ when I got back. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Do we have a graph of how many notes are open? It wouldn't be surprising to see a downward trend in the last few weeks from this change. http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-notes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) This is probably a UI situation. I know the old Skobbler app was *notorious* for this, and probably a huge reason behind the massive flop that was Mapdust http://www.mapdust.com/. Apologies to Telenav for panning their first attempt harshly, even though I was probably pretty close to the most prolific user of Mapdust. I'd be curious to know if anybody watches it now. 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). These make me wish we had a good way to quickly and easily invite a user to sign in via OpenID and Google+ authentication right on the spot so we can try to get back to the original reporter and let 'em know that we hear them, but we don't have enough to work with or what they're asking might not be possible the way they asked it. Or it's plain an application issue (again, one of the huge shortfalls of Mapdust, which was compounded by the fact that since basically only one tool ever implemented it on the reporter end, it would have been trivial to ensure a mapper could reach the reporter.) Along both these lines, it'd be epic if programs implementing OSM also implemented notes, and required a sign-in to file a note so there's some hope that we can have a two way dialogue. Communication with the people in the field who actually use our stuff and aren't nerds is key. 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. That doesn't make it invalid if it's actually in the right spot. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. This isn't unsolvable and shouldn't be closed if it's not solved; you can reach the original mapper for an explanation. If it went into notes, odds are that the person who did it is under the belief that anyone familiar with the area should be able to work it out by context. Yes, I'm notorious for this. However, I do try to document my idiomatic field note taking in the wiki since my notes tend to be brief (I'm in the field, I don't have time for a novel). 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. I'm not sure it's lazy so much as might not be easily resolved without a team effort or someone actually local (sorry, I'm notorious for this in areas I come across that if I can't see it on the available aerials, it might as well be on another planet). 8) Stuff that had already been done. Notes, particularly older ones, slipped through the cracks due to the way the Notes plugin worked. Now that you can pull an essentially arbitrarily huge and old number of notes, I'm finding some antiques of my own. This situation should improve now that you can pull out the antiques with the new Notes system in JOSM. Do we have a graph of how many notes are open? It wouldn't be surprising to see a downward trend in the last few weeks from this change. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Feb 20, 2015 1:37 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A fair number of the notes in my areas were people (usually correctly) identifying the business at a given location. Perhaps an easy form could prompt them to enter complete data. This would unburden the note system. I believe it was Ian Dees who came up with http://onosm.org/ to address this. It collects detailed information and then creates an actionable note with that information. As for useless notes, most of the ones I've seen and closed come from Craigslist. They are the ones that start with bounds: and a URL which used to show a box on the map to indicate the users viewport when they created the note but now just shows the map centered on the note. Some of them are complaining about how their listing isn't showing right on the Craigslist website. The marginally useful ones are the ones that say my neighborhood is missing Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In general feel that more friction should be added to the notes process, so it's harder to make a note, so there are less notes. That process should continue until the production and processing of notes gets into balance. Adding arbitrary friction to the notes process is not the way to go. If JOSM is our advanced, iD our intermediate, and notes our beginner editing method, then adding friction means we'll have fewer mappers and less interest. If you find that there are too many notes, then filter out the ones that bother you. If you have ideas for improving the process of adding notes (keeping in mind that OSM.org is not the only place they come from), then I suggest you write a pull request and convince Tom and EWG to accept the change. I bet results and data from usability testing would help define what changes should be made. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: In general I think it should be easier, not harder, to create notes and Ian's onosm is a good example of how to accomplish that. Adding artificial friction makes no sense to me. Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. Not *artificial* friction, but *friction* that results in better notes. Just enough friction that the ecosystem is in balance: the number of notes created and evaluated are in harmony. For example the main notes form could be expanded to: *What needs updating?* _ (required) *How do you know?* (required) *Optional: let the mapper who will read you note know a little about you. There is no need to leave a name:* ___(optional) *[BUTTON: SUBMIT]* Please confirm: a volunteer will read your note, which is as follows: * Right turn restriction here: bikes only for a right turn. * I pass it every day when biking to work. Here's a link to a photo http://picpaste.org/sfsf * I am a student at the School of Hard Knocks *[BUTTON: PUBLISH ON OPEN STREET MAP]* The objective should be that valuable notes are seen in a timely manner, by someone able to evaluate and resolve them. *Too many low quality notes and you burn out the mapper energy to respond to them!* *Eventually it could become a negative cycle: fewer mappers clearing notes, leads to more clutter, leads to fewer mappers* *clearing them.* Perhaps the most frustrating type of note is one where the writer clearly meant to help, but there's just not enough information available to act on it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
*A challenge*: clear 50 notes, and come back to this discussion with your ideas ;-). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
As for Scout, I talked about this in my diary entry http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/28208 some time ago - not all of these are going to be useful and there is going to be noise. We're looking at improving the quality of the notes that make it through - which is already a tiny, tiny fraction the notes we get internally. Only through making mistakes do we learn how to get it right - not by not doing it in the first place. I would say it's a stretch to call this a 'huge waste' of our time - as I write this there are only a little over 100 notes posted on OSM through our Scout users. In general I think it should be easier, not harder, to create notes and Ian's onosm is a good example of how to accomplish that. Adding artificial friction makes no sense to me. Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: I been meaning to write up an email about this subject last week but never got to it. The problem with osm notes i have is scout. The last week I've been trying to close a lot of scout notes and have found that at least 75 of them are app errors. Of which i can doing nothing but close. Just a huge waste of my and other mappers time. Must of them just say app won't pin my location down or i hate this app! Very long list. But in the end it's not a map issue but a app issue. On Feb 19, 2015 11:34 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In preparation for a project, I made a concerted effort to clear notes in areas I know well. There were a few gems in there, but mostly it was pretty rough going. Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. 7) Gripes about other mappers. 8) Stuff that had already been done. What could be done to make notes better? The current top page introduction reads: *Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. (Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings.)* Could there be a multi step form? Or an extended description: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so a volunteer can have a look. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. * Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings. * Please do include references to websites, photos or other documentation. * Please try to be complete, and write with the reader in mind. * For adding features, consider adding them yourself, rather than leaving a note. OSM is easy to edit, and your fellow mappers and community members value contributions. If the number of notes grows faster than the number of mappers, that's a problem. Notes will cease to be useful. There are two solutions: 1) Get more experienced mappers to process notes 2) Increase the friction of creating a note, in hopes that means less notes of higher quality. Your thoughs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Martijn van Exel skype: mvexel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Feb 20, 2015 1:42 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: As for Scout, I talked about this in my diary entry some time ago - not all of these are going to be useful and there is going to be noise. We're looking at improving the quality of the notes that make it through - which is already a tiny, tiny fraction the notes we get internally. Only through making mistakes do we learn how to get it right - not by not doing it in the first place. I would say it's a stretch to call this a 'huge waste' of our time - as I write this there are only a little over 100 notes posted on OSM through our Scout users. In general I think it should be easier, not harder, to create notes and Ian's onosm is a good example of how to accomplish that. Adding artificial friction makes no sense to me. Less notes should not be an objective, smarter ways to look at them and process them should. Thanks martijn for replying. I know it's hard to sort through the mass amount of notes you guys get. I didn't mean to throw you guys under the bus. It's just overwhelming the notes that are out there. I'm glad to hear you guys are still working to improve the quality of your notes. On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: I been meaning to write up an email about this subject last week but never got to it. The problem with osm notes i have is scout. The last week I've been trying to close a lot of scout notes and have found that at least 75 of them are app errors. Of which i can doing nothing but close. Just a huge waste of my and other mappers time. Must of them just say app won't pin my location down or i hate this app! Very long list. But in the end it's not a map issue but a app issue. On Feb 19, 2015 11:34 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In preparation for a project, I made a concerted effort to clear notes in areas I know well. There were a few gems in there, but mostly it was pretty rough going. Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. 7) Gripes about other mappers. 8) Stuff that had already been done. What could be done to make notes better? The current top page introduction reads: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. (Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings.) Could there be a multi step form? Or an extended description: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so a volunteer can have a look. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. * Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings. * Please do include references to websites, photos or other documentation. * Please try to be complete, and write with the reader in mind. * For adding features, consider adding them yourself, rather than leaving a note. OSM is easy to edit, and your fellow mappers and community members value contributions. If the number of notes grows faster than the number of mappers, that's a problem. Notes will cease to be useful. There are two solutions: 1) Get more experienced mappers to process notes 2) Increase the friction of creating a note, in hopes that means less notes of higher quality. Your thoughs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Martijn van Exel skype: mvexel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com writes: 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. That's unnecessarily perjorative. I've seen a number of notes around me that could be characterized that way, and I've entered a number myself. I view it as a public shared todo list. I've fixed some of them myself, others (esp. oceanvortex) have fixed some, and some remain. It's far faster to drop a note than to do the work, and often it's simply a matter of half an hour with bing and tiger or the massgis parcels layer to resolve. I consider this use case to be a successful example of notes. That said, there is a lot of junk. But I just close them if I can't figure them out and if I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be able to if I showed up. pgpCCtM9r35pG.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Perhaps the most frustrating type of note is one where the writer clearly meant to help, but there's just not enough information available to act on it. I can also relate to this. Any help on getting this is appreciated: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/776 Maybe I could do research into an app which would allow for no-frills GPS trace collection and upload to some service (actually this can be done in HTML5 - you can ask specifically for GPS in geolocation API). This way when someone complains about missing roundabout that happens to be yet invisible in aerial photos, we could ask the person to get a trace. Another thing that would be nice: categorization of open notes (like: needs more info, needs aerial photos/GPS traces, check later (ongoing construction), etc) Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Feb 20, 2015 6:00 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com writes: 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. That's unnecessarily perjorative. I've seen a number of notes around me that could be characterized that way, and I've entered a number myself. I view it as a public shared todo list. I've fixed some of them myself, others (esp. oceanvortex) have fixed some, and some remain. It's far faster to drop a note than to do the work, and often it's simply a matter of half an hour with bing and tiger or the massgis parcels layer to resolve. I consider this use case to be a successful example of notes. That said, there is a lot of junk. But I just close them if I can't figure them out and if I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be able to if I showed up. 1+ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: I believe it was Ian Dees who came up with http://onosm.org/ to address this. It collects detailed information and then creates an actionable note with that information. What would it take to get onosm or something like that linked to from the notes interface? It should also be made clear that non-retail (e.g. online) businesses and consultancies are not mappable. In general feel that more friction should be added to the notes process, so it's harder to make a note, so there are less notes. That process should continue until the production and processing of notes gets into balance. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Perhaps the most frustrating type of note is one where the writer clearly meant to help, but there's just not enough information available to act on it. I can also relate to this. Any help on getting this is appreciated: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/776 +1 on this We have in general only one chance to collect data from a non-mapping note maker. After that they're gone. I feel the notes form can ask more, and be just as interesting and attractive to use. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
Hi Bryce, I don't think people read the text above OSM's notes submission form anyway. I fall in to the camp of less is better. Mapbox blogged about how they do it recently. I really like the big describe what's wrong header as it achieves so much in so few words (and I'm sure if it made sense without it mapbox would drop the word what's too :-) ). I wonder if the mapbox guys have a breakdown of the notes they receive - what is their quality note to junk ratio? https://www.mapbox.com/blog/streamlining-map-feedback/ Best, Rob ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: OSM is easy to edit - I think that it is better to avoid false information. OSM is not easy to edit for beginners (iD is a bit better for start, but it is also quite hard) A fair number of the notes in my areas were people (usually correctly) identifying the business at a given location. Perhaps an easy form could prompt them to enter complete data. This would unburden the note system. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
I been meaning to write up an email about this subject last week but never got to it. The problem with osm notes i have is scout. The last week I've been trying to close a lot of scout notes and have found that at least 75 of them are app errors. Of which i can doing nothing but close. Just a huge waste of my and other mappers time. Must of them just say app won't pin my location down or i hate this app! Very long list. But in the end it's not a map issue but a app issue. On Feb 19, 2015 11:34 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In preparation for a project, I made a concerted effort to clear notes in areas I know well. There were a few gems in there, but mostly it was pretty rough going. Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. 7) Gripes about other mappers. 8) Stuff that had already been done. What could be done to make notes better? The current top page introduction reads: *Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. (Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings.)* Could there be a multi step form? Or an extended description: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so a volunteer can have a look. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. * Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings. * Please do include references to websites, photos or other documentation. * Please try to be complete, and write with the reader in mind. * For adding features, consider adding them yourself, rather than leaving a note. OSM is easy to edit, and your fellow mappers and community members value contributions. If the number of notes grows faster than the number of mappers, that's a problem. Notes will cease to be useful. There are two solutions: 1) Get more experienced mappers to process notes 2) Increase the friction of creating a note, in hopes that means less notes of higher quality. Your thoughs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
OSM is easy to edit - I think that it is better to avoid false information. OSM is not easy to edit for beginners (iD is a bit better for start, but it is also quite hard) 2015-02-20 7:33 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: In preparation for a project, I made a concerted effort to clear notes in areas I know well. There were a few gems in there, but mostly it was pretty rough going. Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. 7) Gripes about other mappers. 8) Stuff that had already been done. What could be done to make notes better? The current top page introduction reads: *Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. (Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings.)* Could there be a multi step form? Or an extended description: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so a volunteer can have a look. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. * Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings. * Please do include references to websites, photos or other documentation. * Please try to be complete, and write with the reader in mind. * For adding features, consider adding them yourself, rather than leaving a note. OSM is easy to edit, and your fellow mappers and community members value contributions. If the number of notes grows faster than the number of mappers, that's a problem. Notes will cease to be useful. There are two solutions: 1) Get more experienced mappers to process notes 2) Increase the friction of creating a note, in hopes that means less notes of higher quality. Your thoughs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes
In preparation for a project, I made a concerted effort to clear notes in areas I know well. There were a few gems in there, but mostly it was pretty rough going. Many open notes were not actionable: 1) Pure junk (empty, scribbles) 2) Unsolvable wishes 3) Incomplete information (with no way to contact the poster). 4) Requests to add a particular business, which did not interest me. 5) Private notes made by note author for themselves. 6) Lazy Requests to do cleanup that the note writer did not want to do themselves. 7) Gripes about other mappers. 8) Stuff that had already been done. What could be done to make notes better? The current top page introduction reads: *Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. (Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings.)* Could there be a multi step form? Or an extended description: Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so a volunteer can have a look. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem. * Please don't enter personal information or information from copyrighted maps or directory listings. * Please do include references to websites, photos or other documentation. * Please try to be complete, and write with the reader in mind. * For adding features, consider adding them yourself, rather than leaving a note. OSM is easy to edit, and your fellow mappers and community members value contributions. If the number of notes grows faster than the number of mappers, that's a problem. Notes will cease to be useful. There are two solutions: 1) Get more experienced mappers to process notes 2) Increase the friction of creating a note, in hopes that means less notes of higher quality. Your thoughs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
