Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Lester Caine wrote: When you jump into some of the links provided HERE you may have no idea in the world where you are, so a banner line with 'Auckland, New Zealand' would be very useful anyway? In some circumstances. But over and above a basic attribution requirement, you should not and cannot restrict how people render/ visualise the OSM data. To do so would remove a fundamental reason for the project. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On 20/03/2008, Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bear with me here, i'm not sure what you mean: what is the serious cartographic issue, and why is it a problem? It looks pug ugly! fair point, i'll agree with that Not a lot more that I can say than that, but I'll try. It performs an interesting social function on the Osmarender layer. But a large part of the art of cartography is decluttering - conveying the maximum information with the minimum crowding. Having repeated (c) LINZ (or whatever) tags on every road effectively reduces the amount of other information you can convey, and the attractiveness of the map. what about only including info for major data sources that demand attribution, i.e. not the osm username info? this would at least keep everything in a (very big ) area labelled the same, plus it would be easier to explain to a non-copyright-savvy user? of course, only at zoom 18 where there is generally plenty of space between objects. or how about as a separate, floating layer that can be turned on and off? something on by default (again, at zoom 18 only)? when the user zooms into the area, the layer is turned on, but they are asked (subtly) if they want it off from that point onwards? would using cookies to determine if they have been to that zoom level in that area be workable? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in the first case, there is room for two attributions - one is the proposed read-only tag, called attribution, which is set to 'linz' or whatever. the second is from the edit history, retrieved by the API, set to the username of an osm user, updated whenever the item is tweaked (i.e. write and read) in the second case,well i see this as unlikely. how any orgs are willing to go to the cost of creating a duplicate data set for an area (by which i mean same data, same area), when they can get one that exists immediately? I know you think this is hypothetical but it's a very real problem. In NL we got the AND data and in the next year or two we will get access to the NWB, which is the map compiled by the govt. It's not clear at all that one is going to be better than the other and merging them is going to be a real problem. It's fortunate that neither ask for attribution or we'd have a serious problem on our hands. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 18 March 2008 23:43:39 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem I can see with this is that the source attribute can be altered (or stripped). Which is as it should be. If an object originating from that import is significantly altered later, then it should be possible to reflect this in the source tag. That's a good question for their lawyers, do we have to maintain attribution for data which is found to be incorrect and hence corrected Using another (write once) tag would still enable the original upload to be recognized, even if the data is corrected at a later stage. THIS one is a good point. The wiki/framework I'm working with personally has two user flags per item. Created and Last Edit. The created flag is only populated when an item is created and while it can be changed, the normal user access does not allow this. I would have thought THIS should be a norm for any of the bluk loaded data. How do we currently tag TIGER and other bulk data? Of cause the second level on any good content framework is 'history' and I can see all the changes to an item and who entered them - but that is something that has been shot down already because of the quantity of traffic :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Anybody wanting (semi-)read-only tags in OSM should read the discussions about the edit war in Cyprus to see how futile they are for this purpose. Can't edit a tag? Just delete the whole object and create it anew. For a more practical example related to mass imports: The waterbodies from the AND import in the Netherlands are often less accurate than the Yahoo aerial imaging that has recently become available here. Now I can tug at the polygon from the AND import till it conforms better to the Yahoo image and put something in the source tag that reflects both sources. If the source tag was read-only, then I'd delete the polygon from the AND import and trace a new one from the Yahoo image. The net effect would be a break in the edit history, because nothing links the new polygon to the old one. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Robin Paulson wrote: Sent: 19 March 2008 7:56 AM To: Cartinus Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand On 19/03/2008, Cartinus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody wanting (semi-)read-only tags in OSM should read the discussions about the edit war in Cyprus to see how futile they are for this purpose. Can't edit a tag? Just delete the whole object and create it anew. true, but is that really an issue here? why (in this context, with no disputes of the magnitude of those in cyprus) would someone do that? what if someone does delete a road sourced from linz, and then draws it in again? the source of the information for that road is no longer linz, it's the person who re-drew it, isn't it? Correct, if someone deletes data and starts anew then the new data has no link with the old, provided it wasn't derived from the old. Derived data is much greyer, since it's likely that with time most objects that get placed in the database will be further edited, either to change their spatial aspects or to add additional information. Once the data has been through a number of changes its really impossible to say that it originated from one or more parties unless you minutely interrogate the history of each object. This is one of the reasons why I firmly believe that nobody really owns the data they put in the database, the reality is that individuals and organisations contribute to the pool. We all have to accept that we are making these contributions for the good of the project, not because it puts our or their names in lights for being associated with the most data. It should be the same for organisations. If linz is happy to see their data contributed for the good of all then that's great, if they want to see their name associated with their data then we can do that by adding source tags when its imported and using an appropriate username for the import. We can also provide generic attribution like we give to anyone else on the wiki, via the news/blog and elsewhere as we did for instance with AND. Beyond that linz needs to be happy that their data will become diluted with time. This is probably the most compelling reason why visual attribution on mapping created from the database just cannot work. I hope that you can persuade Linz that releasing their data under a modified attribution approach to the one they prescribe is not about OSM wanting to have their data only in its own terms. OSM appreciates greatly major contributions of data and we like to give prominent coverage to those that do so. The issue is about keeping the approach generic, so that we have one rule that fits all, as anything less will be impracticable with time. best of luck with the discussion Cheers Andy For a more practical example related to mass imports: The waterbodies from the AND import in the Netherlands are often less accurate than the Yahoo aerial imaging that has recently become available here. Now I can tug at the polygon from the AND import till it conforms better to the Yahoo image and put something in the source tag that reflects both sources. If the source tag was read-only, then I'd delete the polygon from the AND import and trace a new one from the Yahoo image. The net effect would be a break in the edit history, because nothing links the new polygon to the old one. if you deleted the AND data and then re-drew it, the lake would not then be sourced from AND, so there is no need to attribute them. it's a derivative work of you and yahoo. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Hi, On 19.03.2008, at 09:14, Lester Caine wrote: Which is why FOR LEGAL REASONS most decent wiki type frameworks don't have delete as an option for basic users! [...] HOPEFULLY more countries will follow AND and New Zealand in providing accurate data but only if that data is properly managed in the framework. We don't manage other people's data on their behalf. We assimilate it into the collective, and it thereby becomes everybody's data. We modify it, delete it, replace it, change all of its properties and tags as we see fit. If people are not happy with this then they shouldn't give us their data. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 19.03.2008, at 09:14, Lester Caine wrote: Which is why FOR LEGAL REASONS most decent wiki type frameworks don't have delete as an option for basic users! [...] HOPEFULLY more countries will follow AND and New Zealand in providing accurate data but only if that data is properly managed in the framework. We don't manage other people's data on their behalf. We assimilate it into the collective, and it thereby becomes everybody's data. We modify it, delete it, replace it, change all of its properties and tags as we see fit. If people are not happy with this then they shouldn't give us their data. And trash perfectly good information just because you can? We have already seen examples of the sort of 'vandalism' that disputes can cause. *IF* everybody plays nicely together then we do not have a problem, but we live in a world were people take pleasure in doing as much damage as they can and at present there is not an easy way of repairing damage *IF* someone decided to have major fun. We don't have tools for modifying contributed tracks, and contributed data COULD be handled in a similar way? A layer that can be copied much like any other overlay. The 'contributed by' would then be clearly identified and we can then go back to the source data if we find that something HAS been 'modified' for what ever reason. I suppose at the end of the day a link to the source data such as is available for TIGER data may have to do, but having everything in the one easily handleable format makes things a lot more flexible? Given the major holes in even just the UK - anything that would encourage access to other data sources should be encouraged? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Ultimately I'm not sure we have a lot of wiggle room here because of the share-alike license. We could offer that the main website does nice attributions at the bottom of the window, but we can't put any such _demands_ on the use of the data. The reason being that I (speaking as one of many contributors) contributed my data under share-alike. You are not allowed to redistribute _my_ data under a more restrictive license, such as one demanding selective attribution for some parts of the db. I could see a future for 'soft' attribution, where OSMF promise to attribute where possible, but not for a 'hard' demand which must follow the planet file wherever it goes. If we smile sweetly and offer this 'soft' attribution, will LINZ and others be happy with that? Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On 20/03/2008, Stephen Gower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I absolutely agree with this (aka +1). OSM's baseline is user-collected data, freely given to project. Imports of large datasets are nice, but if they can't be given under the same terms as my GPS tracks, OSM should have to use alternative sources. I believe the proof of large-scale useful coverage in the UK and other places, entirely contributed by user-effort, should give the project confidence to walk-away from incompatable data sources, rather than try to jump through hoops to get them. i do agree with the points on principle - however activity in uk does not necessarily prove there will be the same activity elsewhere. the reality of the matter, is that nz has an area about the size of uk, and less than 1/15 the population..we could be waiting a while for enough individual users to map the whole country :-( ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On 19/03/2008, Cartinus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twice no. Objects in the database are more than just shapes. To concentrate on the second one: The shape from the Yahoo image is better, but there are no names visible in the aerial photographs. If I don't know the name (and whatever other attributes) before looking at the AND data, then AND is still source of part of the information contained in the object. well, yes but you're moving the goal posts here. what you're suggesting is no different in concept to a user looking up street names in google maps/microsoft live maps/etc. and adding them to the database, having traced the shape from the yahoo imagery. so, we treat it in the same way: unless and until we (or the owners of the data) suspect copying is going on, we assume people are playing by the rules and getting their data legally, and do nothing and for an org to get worried about this (the linz data contains millions of items), a user would have to remove attribution from a significant amount of data. this takes a lot of time. why would anyone set out to do this? there are far easier ways of causing problems for osm, if it's malice that drives them, and i see no practical benefit that anyone could gain from doing this. if you want to be identified as having worked on it, your name will be there as last editor by tweaking the nodes i understand you're looking at the worst case, and that is useful, but so is looking at the practicalities and the likely actions of people to anyone that might know: is there any evidence of this happening with TIGER and AND data, people removing attribution tags after the imports? Alternatively maybe not the whole lake needed to be redrawn, but that one read-only tag gave me no other choice. well, no it doesn't give you no other choice. if part of the lake is out of line, drag it to the correct position. if it's represented too crudely, add some more points to the loop and drag those to the correct point. data can always be modified to what we want, and attribution will be kept hell, talking hypothetically, there's no reason i couldn't convert that lake into a motorway, a line of power cables/pylons, a large building, or anything else represented by a way. drag the points to new position, maybe break the link so it's not a polygon, change the attributes, hey presto you're there and the linz attribution is kept. pointless changes i know, but the principle stands ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Robin Paulson wrote: [adding attribution to the Mapnik layer] bear with me here, i'm not sure what you mean: what is the serious cartographic issue, and why is it a problem? It looks pug ugly! Not a lot more that I can say than that, but I'll try. It performs an interesting social function on the Osmarender layer. But a large part of the art of cartography is decluttering - conveying the maximum information with the minimum crowding. Having repeated (c) LINZ (or whatever) tags on every road effectively reduces the amount of other information you can convey, and the attractiveness of the map. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings) the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings) the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please Aargh. This is so close to being extremely useful. But if that's going to be a requirement for my cycle map to display that, and all the sites that use the main slippy map, or those embedding the cycle map tiles, and the garmin.img files need to display that, and trekbuddy needs to display that, then there'll be a strong demand for a weekly planet-no-NZ.osm.bz2, which is not exactly what we want to happen! I hope you can find some way around this restriction they are asking for! Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
Hello, On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:03:48 +, Andy Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. Aargh. This is so close to being extremely useful. But if that's going to be a requirement for my cycle map to display that, and all the sites that use the main slippy map, or those embedding the cycle map tiles, and the garmin.img files need to display that, and trekbuddy needs to display that, then there'll be a strong demand for a weekly planet-no-NZ.osm.bz2, which is not exactly what we want to happen! What if we upload all of that data under a particular username? In that sense they are getting attribution as much as any other contributor to OSM. I wonder if they would be happy with their notice going on the OSM wiki, with a note pointing to that under their user account and any OSM wiki pages about NZ? Tata, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On 19/03/2008, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: I presume you've verified that putting it on the OSM web site would not be adequate? I think there needs to be a separate page there listing all the bulk contributors (Holland, USA, Spain, and now NZ, et al) with a link from the front page. no, it's early days yet, approval to use the data only came through yesterday. we've not verified anything attribution wise, this is the first step - asking for possible solutions, which we will then present to LINZ for their approval. your suggestion has been added to the LINZ import page on the wiki, feel free to add more/edit as you see fit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/LINZ I would *think* this would cover it, but IANAL. Good luck! Hmm, if this works, we might be able to get some maps for Canada too. P.S. Amused by the cross-post: I too am both an OM-er and and OSM-er. I did most of the roads around my home: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlon=-79.93265mlat=44.012150zoom=13 well, that was actually a mistake on my part.but there's a lot of people working on/aware of both - i'm particularly impressed to see a number of osm compatible mapping/routing applications developed for openmoko/the neo ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On Tuesday 18 March 2008 23:43:39 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem I can see with this is that the source attribute can be altered (or stripped). Which is as it should be. If an object originating from that import is significantly altered later, then it should be possible to reflect this in the source tag. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import of dataset for new zealand
On 19/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is as it should be. If an object originating from that import is significantly altered later, then it should be possible to reflect this in the source tag. of course, defining 'significantly altered' becomes an issue maybe we can ignore it, and keep it as linz in perpetuity, no matter how much it changes? i don't see too many issues with this, and anyway, i would imagine only a small number would change enough to warrant complete removal? That's a good question for their lawyers, do we have to maintain attribution for data which is found to be incorrect and hence corrected i'll put this point forward Using another (write once) tag would still enable the original upload to be recognized, even if the data is corrected at a later stage. yes, providing double-attribution - linz/some other data set originator and the last editor of the item Thinking more on how osmarender places a copyright on one side of a way, could the other sided be used for an 'attribution' tag? how much of an issue would it be to do this in mapnik as well? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
