Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Peter Childs wrote: Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. You are entering 'religious war' areas here Peter ;) This is one of the few lists I use that still follows the return to sender rules rather than return to list, so one has to remember 'Reply All'. And nowadays I then delete all the extra addresses just to be tidy! People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :( In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Hi, Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer twice. How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list don't send me a second copy or tell their mail reader deduplicate my mail please. This might also help reduce the number of questions with out answers, when people have forgotten to put the answer on-list for everyone benefit. You can't idiot-proof people... If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default should be on-list. Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it to do. So dear list-admins please leave the settings as they are. Thank you. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :( When it comes to being inclusionary I think it's a valid argument to not require people to hit reply to all, many people new to mailing lists don't know any better and they are penalised as a result. In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ... Yes, but the fact is most don't I couldn't even find a greasemonkey script to do it in firefox/gmail. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it to do. Spam filters don't like getting mail from yourself in this manner, because it's a common tactic of spammers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's obviously List headers: Precedence: list List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion talk.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk List-Post: mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe (In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second try. This needs a bug report to GMail) Regards, Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Patrick Petschge Kilian schrieb: Hi, Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Hi! Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or wrong than any other opinion. Wasn't it Stalin who said: You have to repeat a lie often enough to become the truth? ;-) Chip Rosenthal expressed what he expects - fine. It's obvious from the repeating mails on this topic, that a lot of others expect something else. This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Right, but that also mean, your workflow (habit) doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Maybe you're only got used to it ... I know both ways have their pros and cons, so telling other people they are doing something wrong (or bad) is just ... Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Matt Williams li...@milliams.com: I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. Most people don't use kmail, nor any other mail client that handles list replying properly. However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. And no greasemonkey script either. And the greasemonkey scripts that do exist to do reply to all don't work anyway. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit reply to all. And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Matt Williams wrote: 2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. Cheers Christoph [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/4455 However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's obviously List headers: Precedence: list List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion talk.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk List-Post: mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe (In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second try. This needs a bug report to GMail) Regards, Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Ulf Lamping wrote: Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or wrong than any other opinion. I've read it all before. I'm on kmail, I've set reply to list , but its getting harder with the newer kmails to find the setting I frankly disagree with the opinion that it is harmful to set reply to list It is actually harmful to those persons who are still having to use windows instead of nice clear understandable unix based system :-) to make them jump through all sorts of hoops just to reply to a mailing list instead of the author of the mail. That particular author http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html is just plain self-righteous about his superior Unix based system and just so way behind with email management and mailing list management. I've run my own mail server and provided mailing lists for some years and certainly didn't find the difficulties that that author did. Just line up this argument with the other important religious wars of the 20th century like vi vs emacs and please lets ask how many people would like the list reply to headers set. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so I can go back to using IMAP in KMail. -- Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/2009 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote: Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it! and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. which I tried and it doesn't always work. And in any case if you have to press a separate button from normal replying, it's no more use than having to remember to reply to all. The whole point is that you want to be able to set up reply so that for lists it replies the way you want, not how the listmaster thinks you ought to want. As others have said, no widely used mail client does this. Telling people to switch to mail clients that no one has heard of is not helpful. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Matt Williams li...@milliams.com: 2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so I can go back to using IMAP in KMail. Some of us care more about being practical and dealing with things the way that are. I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with the self righteousness of others. Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list changed please. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote: Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. Thunderbird 3 has it built in. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit reply to all. The current communications methods are very awkward, particularly when participating in more than one subject. The amount of time to create a new password and sign up is absurd compared to a more typical single sign-on web forum based setup. Some web forums allow email-based communications for those who need that. And for those modern kids, it allows RSS feeds, quickly adding new forum subject categories as needed, and rapid searching and archived thread following rather than relying on Google. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 12:28, John Smith wrote: I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with the self righteousness of others. Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list changed please. Look people. This is, and has been for the 16 years that I have been reading email, a holy war issue (just like vi vs emacs etc) and whatever you do the other side will just complain. Frankly I long ago gave up caring - it's impossible to please everybody so there is no point in trying. Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu: Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. You can't exactly take the high road here, reply to headers get munged on other OSM lists, can we please have some consistency, either turn them all on or all off. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
I was only trying to sort out what I find to be an annoyance and a possible cause of why we get a lot of emails on this list without answers. I did not mean to start a holy war. Personally I think Email needs a complete and utter re-design from the ground up. Its not fit for the purpose it is now being used for, and forums are no better. But I will not go into that discussion here because its Off Topic and Silly, We have to cope with what we've got rather than try and reinvent the wheel. When I finally start a blog I will put a post on it about what I think we need to replace email. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Mike N. nice...@att.net: Some web forums allow email-based communications for those who need that. And for those modern kids, it allows RSS feeds, quickly adding new forum subject categories as needed, and rapid searching and archived thread following rather than relying on Google. We're not using a web based forums, in fact most people don't use the OSM web based forums, please stop making straw men arguments. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 12:49, John Smith wrote: 2009/9/3 Tom Hughest...@compton.nu: Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. You can't exactly take the high road here, reply to headers get munged on other OSM lists, can we please have some consistency, either turn them all on or all off. Each list is managed by a different person, and the settings for the list are entirely up to them. I'm not actually the manager for any of the lists being talked about here but I do have the master password so can in theory change any list. I don't plan to however - I plan to let list owners decide. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 12:40, Mike N. wrote: The current communications methods are very awkward, particularly when participating in more than one subject. The amount of time to create a new password and sign up is absurd compared to a more typical single sign-on web forum based setup. That's trivial compared to the ongoing per-message cost of reading a forum vs a mailing list. That's why I read mailing lists and ignore web forums - they just take too much time to read. All of which is, of course, supremely irrelevant to the subject under discussion here. We have both mailing lists and forums so people can choose which to use. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Tom Hughes wrote: Look people. This is, and has been for the 16 years that I have been reading email, a holy war issue (just like vi vs emacs etc) and whatever you do the other side will just complain. Frankly I long ago gave up caring - it's impossible to please everybody so there is no point in trying. Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. Tom if you want to vote no, could you say so? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer twice. How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list don't send me a second copy or tell their mail reader deduplicate my mail please. Well, Thunderbird, which I use as mail client can't deduplicate the mail. Especially if the mail that went through list have few extra headers and a footer added, so these mails are no longer the same. So I end up with two almost identical mails in my inbox. As for replying, there is usually no button reply to list in mail clients I use (not in thunderbird or in gmail), so whether I press reply or reply to all, I have to manually edit To: so there would be only list. If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default should be on-list. Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it to do. Neither thunderbird or gmail does that. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 11:36:14AM +0200, Patrick Petschge Kilian wrote: Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header Hi, Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. I second this - i am getting multiple thousand mails/day and people trying to have an argument with me should CC me directly otherwise the argument might take weeks to months ... I consider Reply-To: with a list adress as broken. I am in a comfortable situation to fix this at least for my inbox ... :0 fhc * ^List-Id: Openstreetmap allgemeines in Deutsch talk-de.openstreetmap.org | formail -R Reply-To X-No-Reply-To Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen. - - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
I guess it not a problem with the mailman mailing list manager. It should have a option to set whether you want that header or not. This would save many of the arguments. I prefer the reply to mailing list. I keep replying to the last person in threads. Often I don't notice until the next day. Its because I am on 3 other high traffic mailing lists that use reply to mailing list headers. btw the next big thing to beat e-mail is Google Wave, I am not sure about it yet but it might take off. Jack Stringer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 02:08:51PM -0500, Joseph Booker wrote: Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it! Probably very few, since it is called Claws Mail now :) No, you get double the chance of having heard of it! This one[1], and this one[2]. [1]: http://www.claws-mail.org/ [2]: http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/ Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
