Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Hi, On 21 Apr 2008, at 22:24, Martijn van Exel wrote: Op 21 apr 2008, om 22:46 heeft Frederik Ramm het volgende geschreven: Hi, Hi Frederik, for an upcoming OSM booth we have the offer of a local Apple dealer to supply us with all the hardware we want (including 30+ displays and all). These would, however, be out-of-the-box Macs with those funny keyboards and those mice without buttons you know... and they wouldn't even let us pop an Ubuntu CD in and install a proper OS ;-) Where is this show? [] Or will I have to install countless helpers, utilities and control panels? No. Only thing I'd recommend is putting this: #!/bin/bash java -jar -Xmx256M -XX:MaxPermSize=256M /Applications/josm-latest.jar in ~/Library/Scripts/JOSM.sh (chmod 0755) and enabling the script menu through the AppleScript Utility (included in Leopard) for easy access to JOSM. I've used Jar bundler, which produces much nicer mac like results. I've also used increased memory allowance. http://shaunmcdonald.me.uk/osm/JOSM/macosx/JOSM.dmg You will need to update the josm-latest.jar inside it, as it is currently an old version. You control/context+click the JOSM.app and choose show package contents. Then navigate to Contents/Resources/ Java and replace the josm-latest.jar in there with a newer version. Finally don't run JOSM from the disk image. I would like to accept the offer but if I end up endlessly tuning those machines to act like normal computers then I'd rather opt for run-down but working Linux boxes from the community instead of the shiny Macs. Is there no-one with hands-on Mac experience that can lend a hand? You wouldn't want to turn down those 30 screens :) 30 displays are very impressive, and will give OSM that extra wow factor. Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Frederik Ramm wrote: How would a native Mac application deal with wanting to let the user drag the map and at the same time wanting to let him draw a selection rectangle? Would they have one drag mode and one select mode then, or a modifier key for one of the two actions? A selection tool should auto-scroll the canvas as the selection rectangle approaches the edge of the window (bonus points if the speed of scrolling is proportional to the distance between the mouse and the boundary - selecting up to the edge of the window should scroll slowly, selecting way past the edge of the window should scroll quickly). If there's a separate pan tool then a popular convention is that pressing space will temporarily switch to the pan tool until space is released. Unfortunately the standard Preview.app only implements the second behaviour, but if you have access to a copy of Photoshop then that's probably the best model to copy. -dair ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.refnum.com/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Hi, Where is this show? It's the LinuxTag in Berlin, end of May. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
2008/4/22 Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Zooming without a wheel mouse is a bit awkward because the zoom slider is too short - a small movement makes a big difference. It would be nice to increase it's length - possible even put it vertically along the whole height of the screen. A less intrusive option here would be to do it the way the Google Earth widgets work. Add a plus and minus button at either end of the existing slider. Holding the mouse down over these does a smooth zoom in or out on Google Earth. JOSM probably can't deliver this, but it could probably allow the scale bar or a displayed scale to change in realtime until the mouse is released. Or as a simpler alternative, just have each click change the zoom level by a small increment. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On 22 Apr 2008, at 11:52, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: [...] My question to the Mac users out there: Will those Macs be suitable for demonstrating all important aspects of OSM, i.e. * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) If you put JOSM on the hard disk anyway, you can just drop the Firefox install next to it. It's just moving (drag-n-drop) one directory to install it. You could also switch between the browsers to show that OSM plays nicely in many browsers. Opera is another browser that could be used for this. * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) Either you use a proper 3-button mouse. You can configure the Apple Mouse to be a 2-button mouse depending on where you press it down or you hold ctrl down to achieve a right click. Personally, I would accept the Macs and pop in a cheap 3-button USB mouse. All Macs now come with the mighty mouse, however it can be tricky to get the right click to work, as you have to lift your fingers off the left hand side of the mouse. I have even setup my trackpad so that I can use it for within JOSM. It's not easy, but it can be done. As others have said, have a cheap 3 button mouse as a backup. * Potlatch No problem here. Runs smooth. Does it use right-click at all? Right click in flash only brings up a system menu for Adobe Flash settings and about the flash plugin. I believe that developers cannot use the right click in flash. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Or will I have to install countless helpers, utilities and control panels? JOSM mouse handling is the most inconvenient thing. If it really was that difficult to deal with OSM on the Mac, something would have been done about it by now. There are many Mac users in the OSM community (including myself). Control+mousewheel, will allow you to zoom the screen. I'd highly recommend it for the relevant parts of the presentation. Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Shaun McDonald wrote: Right click in flash only brings up a system menu for Adobe Flash settings and about the flash plugin. I believe that developers cannot use the right click in flash. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Happy to oblige. :) You can customise the right-click menu from Actionscript, though it's always a menu (not any other click behaviour), and always has the Adobe prefs/about at the bottom. But Potlatch doesn't use it, other than to expressly disable Flash's Zoom In/Zoom Out functionality, which doesn't play nicely with resizable movies. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Hi, I'm using this post to address a number of things that others have said as well: Ubuntu Live CDs end to work on these. That would be one option. Although Mac OSX works fine. The Macs come from an Apple store who will have a certain interest in showing off their product. This means I will neither install Ubuntu, nor can I plug in a cheap el-ugly USB mouse. Ok I'm now convinced that I can use the Macs. Someone said that zooming in JOSM is a pain sometimes; I just want to point out that you can zoom in increments with Ctrl-, and Ctrl-. (comma and decimal point). I am quite confused now about dragging the map. Many have said that using the mouse with JOSM on the Macs does not work very well. But then I am told you can use Ctrl rightclick simulation to do the dragging, and others again say that some applications would use the space bar a a modifier key. Why would they, if Ctrl is already built in? If somebody can tell me exactly how you would like JOSM to behave on a mousically challenged system then we could maybe fix that... my first shot would have been supporting a modifier key but obviously OSX does that already with Ctrl and it seems not to be what people want? Maybe we should have that discussion over on josm-dev though. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On 22 Apr 2008, at 12:43, Frederik Ramm wrote: [...] Ok I'm now convinced that I can use the Macs. Brilliant. Someone said that zooming in JOSM is a pain sometimes; I just want to point out that you can zoom in increments with Ctrl-, and Ctrl-. (comma and decimal point). Useful, though I personally tend to use the scrollwheel to do the zooming. I am quite confused now about dragging the map. Many have said that using the mouse with JOSM on the Macs does not work very well. But then I am told you can use Ctrl rightclick simulation to do the dragging, and others again say that some applications would use the space bar a a modifier key. Why would they, if Ctrl is already built in? If somebody can tell me exactly how you would like JOSM to behave on a mousically challenged system then we could maybe fix that... my first shot would have been supporting a modifier key but obviously OSX does that already with Ctrl and it seems not to be what people want? Control+Click on Mac OS X is a way to do a contextual click (what most people think of as a right click). I have just tried it in JOSM on Mac OS X and control+dragging doesn't produce the expected result of moving the map. Modern Macs tend not to have the problem, as they are supplied with a multi button mouse, or the trackpad can be configured to do the right click drag. Shaun [..] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Frederik Ramm wrote: I am quite confused now about dragging the map. Many have said that using the mouse with JOSM on the Macs does not work very well. But then I am told you can use Ctrl rightclick simulation to do the dragging, and others again say that some applications would use the space bar a a modifier key. Why would they, if Ctrl is already built in? Ctrl-click means contextual menu. Space-drag in many applications (e.g. anything by Adobe) means drag canvas. (You can often also do this by selecting a hand tool.) The fact that most apps use right-click for the former, and JOSM uses right-click for the latter, is by the by really. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
2008/4/22 Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I am quite confused now about dragging the map. Many have said that using the mouse with JOSM on the Macs does not work very well. But then I am told you can use Ctrl rightclick simulation to do the dragging, and others again say that some applications would use the space bar a a modifier key. Why would they, if Ctrl is already built in? It's worth addressing this in isolation. As long as the mice supplied are mighty mice, (and we're told that's the only sort now used), no problem... BUT: By default, the right side of the mighty mouse will be mapped to button 1 just like the left side. Although Ctrl-click seems to be the MacOS way of right-clicking when you don't have a second button, in my couple of years of owning Macs I've never ever done this. Just fire up the mouse preferences and use the visual control panel to map button 2 and button 3 and you'll be able to use JOSM as you normally do, and that includes using the wheel to zoom. I happen to choose to use a Microsoft mouse on my home Mac (my mighty mouse is a lemon whose right-click doesn't work well), but mapped correctly the Mighty Mouse behaves sufficiently like any normal mouse not to cause you any problems. But do test the right-clicking in good time just in case you too get a lemon - alert the sponsor to the problem and he'll no doubt be motivated to swap the mouse out. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am quite confused now about dragging the map. Many have said that using the mouse with JOSM on the Macs does not work very well. But then I am told you can use Ctrl rightclick simulation to do the dragging, and others again say that some applications would use the space bar a a modifier key. Why would they, if Ctrl is already built in? If somebody can tell me exactly how you would like JOSM to behave on a mousically challenged system then we could maybe fix that... my first shot would have been supporting a modifier key but obviously OSX does that already with Ctrl and it seems not to be what people want? Really, the easiest thing to do is to re-map the right button on the Mighty Mouse to mouse button 2, rather then it's default mouse button 1 (like the left button). While I love my Mac, I'm much too used to conventional 3 button mice to accept the one true button philosophy of Macdom. I suspect even hardcore Mac fans click on the left side now for the most part. It's not huge magic, and I think it's even a user config option, if the dealer will be setting up users for the show. I don't think they'll even object, since most PC users (and they account for 90%+ of computer users) are used to right-clicking. This way, the pretty mouse functions like most other mice. And it shows that OS X has flexibility. :) Gerald. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:46:53PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: My question to the Mac users out there: Will those Macs be suitable for demonstrating all important aspects of OSM, i.e. * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) I've heard this rumour as well, but use Safari as my primary browser and have never had this issue. Safari 3.1 is 2x faster than FF3 and 10x faster than FF2 at DOM manipulation, so in general, the slippy map will be much faster on latest Safari than any other browser on mac. * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) This is likely your sticking point. The inability to drag the map is a real killer on JOSM, and I'm not aware of any decent ways of working around it within the java on mac. (I do a *lot* of zooming in and out, and use of the ctrl-arrows, whenever I need JOSM without an eexternal mouse.) * Potlatch Potlatch works great, and is primarily developed on an apple machine. * ...? The PDFs from the export tab all work beautifully in Apple's 'Preview.app'. Or will I have to install countless helpers, utilities and control panels? Fix JOSM to drag with a single button mouse, and you should be golden. :) Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On 21/04/2008, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question to the Mac users out there: Will those Macs be suitable for demonstrating all important aspects of OSM, i.e. Yes, IMHO, but see below: * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) I've sometimes had the sense, irrespective of browser, that more loads than is really needed, but I mostly use Safari and have no real issue with it. Do run the software updates to pull in latest Safari with much improved rendering speed and standards compliance. You can also install Firefox for safety - V3 has native widgets. * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) Works fine except for requirement to use a doctored YWMS plugin (if you want to run it). Don't use the 1-button mouse. If the thing comes with a Mighty Mouse (tiny trackball where the wheel should be) just go into System Preferences-Mouse and map the right mouse side as button 2 and the trackball click as button 3. Or just connect any USB mouse of your choosing. You might want search the list archives for references to the JOSM Mac Application Package. That will give you a nice icon in the dock and will allocate a nicer amount of RAM. * Potlatch Fine for me. Something that used to happen was the occasional keyboard freeze, which could be unwedged by switching to another app and back again. * ...? Well, you can get a shell on it if you want to, but I imagine you won't want to install [EMAIL PROTECTED] or suchlike (it's possible, but tricky first time, a lot of prerequisites). sudo su if you want root. Or will I have to install countless helpers, utilities and control panels? Apple menu-software update and install everything in sight, but especially Safari. I would like to accept the offer but if I end up endlessly tuning those machines to act like normal computers then I'd rather opt for run-down but working Linux boxes from the community instead of the shiny Macs. Use the Macs. They look the part and should do what you want. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
On 21 Apr 2008, at 21:46, Frederik Ramm wrote: My question to the Mac users out there: Will those Macs be suitable for demonstrating all important aspects of OSM, i.e. * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) The slippy map works fine here... * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) I've used JOSM with a single button mouse for quite a while, for anything you need right click for ctrl+click is the equivalent to right click. * Potlatch Potlatch is as useable as on any other platform. There is very little that wont work, just remember ctrl+click = right click -- Chris Jones, SUCS Admin http://sucs.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Christopher Schmidt wrote: * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) This is likely your sticking point. The inability to drag the map is a real killer on JOSM, and I'm not aware of any decent ways of working around it within the java on mac. (I do a *lot* of zooming in and out, and use of the ctrl-arrows, whenever I need JOSM without an eexternal mouse.) you can use a real mouse with a normal number of buttons... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Hi, * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) This is likely your sticking point. The inability to drag the map is a real killer on JOSM, and I'm not aware of any decent ways of working around it within the java on mac. (I do a *lot* of zooming in and out, and use of the ctrl-arrows, whenever I need JOSM without an eexternal mouse.) How would a native Mac application deal with wanting to let the user drag the map and at the same time wanting to let him draw a selection rectangle? Would they have one drag mode and one select mode then, or a modifier key for one of the two actions? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Op 21 apr 2008, om 22:46 heeft Frederik Ramm het volgende geschreven: Hi, Hi Frederik, for an upcoming OSM booth we have the offer of a local Apple dealer to supply us with all the hardware we want (including 30+ displays and all). These would, however, be out-of-the-box Macs with those funny keyboards and those mice without buttons you know... and they wouldn't even let us pop an Ubuntu CD in and install a proper OS ;-) That's very nice. My question to the Mac users out there: Will those Macs be suitable for demonstrating all important aspects of OSM, i.e. * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) I just compared FF2 and Safari 3.1.1 using http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.3977lon=4.8929zoom=12layers=B0FT FF2 does 195 requests, Safari 174. Safari actually performs better. I did not do extensive testing, but with a clean cache Safari loads the above page about a second and a half faster than FF2. * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) That is indeed horrible. Recent Macs are supplied with a two-button mouse though. Well - it's actually still one physical surface, but left and right clicks are detected. I would recommend connecting any regular mouse though, because the scroll 'wheel' (it's actually a little ball) is nasty. * Potlatch It...Works. Expect hiccups now and then. Flash is slower on Macs than on Windows. Even recent Macs suffer. I have a MacBook Pro 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo and I regularly have to wait 1sec+ for Potlatch to react to user input after it stalls. * ...? You could of course install Windows on them ;) Or Ubuntu / Debian / Whatever in a VM. I run Windows, Ubuntu and Mac OSX all at the same time with no problems at all. Or will I have to install countless helpers, utilities and control panels? No. Only thing I'd recommend is putting this: #!/bin/bash java -jar -Xmx256M -XX:MaxPermSize=256M /Applications/josm-latest.jar in ~/Library/Scripts/JOSM.sh (chmod 0755) and enabling the script menu through the AppleScript Utility (included in Leopard) for easy access to JOSM. I would like to accept the offer but if I end up endlessly tuning those machines to act like normal computers then I'd rather opt for run-down but working Linux boxes from the community instead of the shiny Macs. Is there no-one with hands-on Mac experience that can lend a hand? You wouldn't want to turn down those 30 screens :) Good luck! -- martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM on factory Macs
Sorry for my previous, possibly confusing post. I meant so send this one... * Slippy Map (heard rumours that it runs sub-optimal on Safari, always loading tiles for all layers instead of current only?) I've been using the slippy map with Safari for several months and never had an issue. * JOSM (especially concerned about usability with 1 button mouse) Newer Macs come with the Mighty Mouse which has 4 buttons and a scroll button. But you should also be able to use any other USB mouse. * Potlatch Safari comes with a Flash plug-in and therefore has no problems running Potlatch. If you want, I can come to Karlsruhe and do some Mac consulting (sometime after finishing my university degree next week) ;-) Greets, Daniel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
