Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Hi Kathleen, OK. No more statistical data in this topic (just wanted to make a point that drinking is present in the traditional culture of many countries). As for the inclusion, - the industry provides nowadays a large choice of alcohol-free beer, wine, sparkling wine [1]. And even alcohol-free vodka, alcohol-free whiskey, tequila, brandy, etc. [2]. If one drinks cola or orange juice at a social event, people start to ask questions, Why you do not drink but your friends do. But if one drinks alcohol free-beer or alcohol-free wine nobody even notices (speaking from experience). Nobody usually cares to read on the label of a bottle what percent of alcohol it contains. And the bottle itself looks exactly like a bottle of a traditional beer, wine, etc. [1] http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/ [2] http://shop.arkaybeverages.com/8-alcohol-free-vodka brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 18:12, Kathleen Danielson wrote: Do you think that we could take the conversation on alcohol consumption statistics to a different forum? I don't think that's adding value to our discussion of making sure that we aren't excluding folks who prefer not to drink. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Oleksly, As for the inclusion, - the industry provides nowadays a large choice of alcohol-free beer, wine, sparkling wine [1]. And even alcohol-free vodka, alcohol-free whiskey, tequila, brandy, etc. [2]. I don't think we should be relying on the alcohol producers to be providing us with opportunities for inclusion. You're basically saying hide the fact that you don't drink alcohol whereas the message I got from the discussion was we need to provide social events that don't revolve around (at least some people) drinking alcohol. If one drinks cola or orange juice at a social event, people start to ask questions You're going to the wrong social events. Cheers, Joseph On 5 November 2014 10:29, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: Hi Kathleen, OK. No more statistical data in this topic (just wanted to make a point that drinking is present in the traditional culture of many countries). As for the inclusion, - the industry provides nowadays a large choice of alcohol-free beer, wine, sparkling wine [1]. And even alcohol-free vodka, alcohol-free whiskey, tequila, brandy, etc. [2]. If one drinks cola or orange juice at a social event, people start to ask questions, Why you do not drink but your friends do. But if one drinks alcohol free-beer or alcohol-free wine nobody even notices (speaking from experience). Nobody usually cares to read on the label of a bottle what percent of alcohol it contains. And the bottle itself looks exactly like a bottle of a traditional beer, wine, etc. [1] http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/ [2] http://shop.arkaybeverages.com/8-alcohol-free-vodka brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 18:12, Kathleen Danielson wrote: Do you think that we could take the conversation on alcohol consumption statistics to a different forum? I don't think that's adding value to our discussion of making sure that we aren't excluding folks who prefer not to drink. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Joseph, During millions of years of evolution eating and drinking together meant that people belonged to the same tribe. Drinking together is beneficial for a group cohesion. It is in our culture and in our genes. Certainly, if I go to a sport event people drink tea and water there. I just wanted to say that at a large social gathering people may have a choice what to drink without being conspicuous, without imposing an agenda to others. brgds Oleksiy On 05.11.2014 11:56, Joseph Reeves wrote: Oleksly, As for the inclusion, - the industry provides nowadays a large choice of alcohol-free beer, wine, sparkling wine [1]. And even alcohol-free vodka, alcohol-free whiskey, tequila, brandy, etc. [2]. I don't think we should be relying on the alcohol producers to be providing us with opportunities for inclusion. You're basically saying hide the fact that you don't drink alcohol whereas the message I got from the discussion was we need to provide social events that don't revolve around (at least some people) drinking alcohol. If one drinks cola or orange juice at a social event, people start to ask questions You're going to the wrong social events. Cheers, Joseph ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Olekisy, I think the point about statistics is like your point about alcohol free beer- it misses the point. The question before OSM isn't Do OSM events model the alcoholic consumption trends of the country they're in? nor is the question Are there beverages which taste similar to alchol free beer?, the question from Richard Weait was Do the alcohol events turn anyone off? and the answer for several of us is yes. What's a more useful question is then Why? And I can tell you that for me, it's not the alcohol per se, but the whole bar/beer culture. It's not that if you provide some beverages, I'm more willing to go, it's that being in a loud, crowded place is quite literally painful, and so while I will tolerate accepting some level of pain for some period of time, when given the choice between doing that and not doing it, I will generally choose not to. As for beer and its role- I have some gastrointestinal issues which prevent me from having beer. I'm gluten intolerant and alcohol itself is not kind on my system. That's why I don't generally drink, because the alcoholic drinks which don't give me trouble me are few and far between. When I used to be able to drink beer, I think that my tolerance for the above noise/etc was dulled by the inebriation. But there are lots of reasons why people may not choose to go to an event that's beer centric. Maybe they're gluten intolerant, or alcohol intolerant, or alcoholic (and abstaining), maybe they don't drink for religious reasons, or maybe they just make a choice not to, or they have sensory issues, or maybe if an event is held in a bar, it keeps people who are under 21 away, or I know some women don't like to go to bar/drinking events because of past bad experiences. The causes are different but the result is the same. I don't think Richard was asking How can I find an alcohol free beer?, he was asking about Are there people who find themselves unable to attend OSM events which are based around alcohol? and for me the answer is yes, and as an example I offered, the SOTM US social events have either taken place at a bar (starting from the very first one in Atlanta), or were essentially just taking an office and putting alcohol in it. The result is either I tried attesting and found myself extremely uncomfortable and left after a very short time (10-15 minutes) or more recently, I've just stopped trying to attend these social events and just go to the conference itself. Contrasting this, by the way, is SOTM in Birmingham, the last day, food was served, and alcohol was offered as well. We had tables, and so things didn't seem quite as alcohol centric, even though Brits tend to have more of a beer culture than even Americans. It's never possible to make things perfect for every person, but offering smaller rooms, or more quiet, low key places/events as part of a larger event can make a big difference to me. I don't expect people to accommodate, though, I just choose not to put myself in a situation where I feel either socially or physically uncomfortable. What event organizers choose to do with this information is entirely up to them. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Sorry, I find this 25 emails discussion about having orange juice or not in OSM alcoholic events just ridiculous. Everyone is free to join or organize an OSM event, with or without alcohol. Everyone is free to add non-alcoholic drinks or quieter rooms in such events. What I'm sure is that OSM has many, many more important issues than this one. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
2014-11-05 16:25 GMT+01:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Sorry, I find this 25 emails discussion about having orange juice or not in OSM alcoholic events just ridiculous. Everyone is free to join or organize an OSM event, with or without alcohol. Everyone is free to add non-alcoholic drinks or quieter rooms in such events. What I'm sure is that OSM has many, many more important issues than this one. I agree plainly. And I'd like to add that in all OSM events I have been to so far, smokers have been marginalized. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 05.11.2014 12:23, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Olekisy, ... for me, it's not the alcohol per se, but the whole bar/beer culture. It's not that if you provide some beverages, I'm more willing to go, it's that being in a loud, crowded place is quite literally painful, and so while I will tolerate accepting some level of pain for some period of time, when given the choice between doing that and not doing it, I will generally choose not to. ... the SOTM US social events have either taken place at a bar (starting from the very first one in Atlanta),... Serge, Alcohol could be sold only in certain places [1]. Many do expect it, and it is impossible to change on the fly. By the way, any normal person feels a bit painful, for the lack of a better word, during a large social meet mingle event. But nothing can substitute it. ... , even though Brits tend to have more of a beer culture than even Americans. ... I promised not to bring data into this discussion, so I will not argue it. [1] http://www.njsp.org/news/pr070214.html brgds, Oleksiy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Same here, unless people are brought by force to OSM meetings and forced again to driks alcohol, this is a non issue. Good point for the smokers. On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-05 16:25 GMT+01:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Sorry, I find this 25 emails discussion about having orange juice or not in OSM alcoholic events just ridiculous. Everyone is free to join or organize an OSM event, with or without alcohol. Everyone is free to add non-alcoholic drinks or quieter rooms in such events. What I'm sure is that OSM has many, many more important issues than this one. I agree plainly. And I'd like to add that in all OSM events I have been to so far, smokers have been marginalized. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 04.11.2014 07:02, Roland Olbricht wrote: You should wait for further feedback, but I sounds to me like a US-American, not an OSM problem. as a person who usually doesn't drink alcohol I second Roland. Within all the events regarding OSM and open SW and hacking and I joined within the last 10 ...15 years drinking no alcohol was never a problem to me. One thing: sometimes you get a voucher for a beer or something but there has never been a problem to get a noalcoholic beeverage instead for that voucher. Maybe the request not to drink a beer but to order a nonalcoholic beeverage has some relation to self-confidence? Cheers, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Hi Richard, Thanks so much for sharing this piece. I'm actually friends with the author and she's gotten really great feedback. I'm pleased to see it showing up in our community. I definitely think this is something we can be better about. As someone who has helped organize SOTM-US in the past I think it's absolutely something where we have room to improve. As an event organizer, I am 100% a part of the problem, so I want to personally apologize to anyone who has felt uncomfortable or less welcome at an event because of alcohol, and a lack of ample non-alcoholic choices. We can do better. That piece makes these points far better than I could, so I won't repeat what we've read, but I think that the tech community (which OSM frequently mirrors, in social respects), is slowly becoming more aware of the need to make events more inclusive, and lessening the reliance on alcohol is one important way to do that. As an aside, since I am an American I cannot say whether this is just an American problem. I will say that I also find many tech events in Berlin are focused around alcohol, but perhaps the events I've attended have been anomalies. Best, Kathleen On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:05 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: I read this article recently and It got me thinking. Do we devalue community members, or potential community members who don't drink? A quote from the article, When alcohol is currency, non-alcoholic drinks are considered valueless, and the interests and needs of people who don’t drink alcohol are easily forgotten. Give it a read and let's talk. Can we do better in the ways that the article suggests? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/alcohol-and-inclusivity-planning-tech-events-with-non-alcoholic-options ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
WHO data [1] does not corroborate it. Both countries have comparable litres per capita per year. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 14:33, Kathleen Danielson wrote: ... As an aside, since I am an American I cannot say whether this is just an American problem. I will say that I also find many tech events in Berlin are focused around alcohol, but perhaps the events I've attended have been anomalies. ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
liters per capita may have correlation with tech events are too focused on alcohol - but it is not enough to consider it as a good measurement of this problem. 2014-11-04 15:03 GMT+01:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch: WHO data [1] does not corroborate it. Both countries have comparable litres per capita per year. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 14:33, Kathleen Danielson wrote: ... As an aside, since I am an American I cannot say whether this is just an American problem. I will say that I also find many tech events in Berlin are focused around alcohol, but perhaps the events I've attended have been anomalies. ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 04/11/14 14:03, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: WHO data [1] does not corroborate it. Both countries have comparable litres per capita per year. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption Well are you looking at row 1 or row 23 because both are apparently for the US but they indicate radically different consumption levels... Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
I looked at the data of The World Health Organization (WHO), a specialized agency of the United Nations. It is the second list. brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 15:23, Tom Hughes wrote: On 04/11/14 14:03, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: WHO data [1] does not corroborate it. Both countries have comparable litres per capita per year. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption Well are you looking at row 1 or row 23 because both are apparently for the US but they indicate radically different consumption levels... Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 2014-11-04 at 15:03:59 +0100, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: WHO data [1] does not corroborate it. Both countries have comparable litres per capita per year. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption litres per capita drunk aren't very indicative of the way the presence of alcool at an event is related to social pressure at drinking; it is a bad indicator for lots of other things, actually, since it is expecially bad at distinguing between a population of mostly moderate drinkers and one where people are mostly at the extremes of the scale (either non-drinkers or heavy drinkers). I also feel that it is probably more of a problem in some cultures than in others: at all of the FLOSS social events I've been in Italy alcool was plenty, but the emphasis was on food [1]_ and a significant minority (me included) didn't drink without receiving any comment. .. [1] here there may have been some discrimination, in that vegetarians were provided for, but do suffer some social stigma. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 2014-11-04 at 15:42:09 +0100, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: litres per capita drunk aren't very indicative of the way the presence of alcool at an event is related to social pressure at drinking; it is a bad indicator for lots of other things, actually, since it is expecially bad at distinguing between a population of mostly moderate drinkers and one where people are mostly at the extremes of the scale (either non-drinkers or heavy drinkers). See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_culture#Binge_drinking The highest levels of both binge-drinking and drunkenness are found in the Nordic countries, UK, Ireland, Slovenia and Latvia. This contrasts with the low levels found in France, Italy, Lithuania, Poland and Romania – for example, binge-drinking more than twice in the last month was reported by 31% of boys and 33% of girls in Ireland, but in comparison 12%-13% of boys and 5%-7% of girls in France and Hungary. where many binge-drinking countries are lower that most non-binge-drinking contries in the alcohol consumption table on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#WHO_statistics (unluckily, the ref points to a broken link, however) -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Here is the WHO (World Health Organization) statistics of /heavy episodic drinking among drinkers, males and females /[1] by country for 2010. It is in the form of interactive graph (Requires Flash player). [1] http://www.who.int/gho/alcohol/consumption_patterns/heavy_episodic_drinkers/en/ brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 17:03, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: ... levels of both binge-drinking and drunkenness ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Do you think that we could take the conversation on alcohol consumption statistics to a different forum? I don't think that's adding value to our discussion of making sure that we aren't excluding folks who prefer not to drink. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: Here is the WHO (World Health Organization) statistics of *heavy episodic drinking among drinkers, males and females *[1] by country for 2010. It is in the form of interactive graph (Requires Flash player). [1] http://www.who.int/gho/alcohol/consumption_patterns/heavy_episodic_drinkers/en/ brgds Oleksiy On 04.11.2014 17:03, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: ... levels of both binge-drinking and drunkenness ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Not to be a wise ass but it looks recently like OSM is setting out to solve every single problem starting from gender inequality, good practices for bookkeeping, methods for democratic voting and now alcoholic beverages and noise levels at OSM related events... At the same time Ilya Zverev's message on osmf-talk with very concrete and very actionable items is left without any response. I mean, OSM should not be a frontier for all possible controversial issues to be discussed and solved from ground up. There are solutions for those things already out there. I feel like shouting just use the damn Google Docs for storing information and be done with it (replace use Google Docs with any issues talked about here in recent weeks). Someone just take charge and let's press on! True, I am regarded by most people as a troll by now but even trolls can feel pain at the sight of something placed on its head. Paweł On Sat, Nov 1, 2014, at 23:05, Richard Weait wrote: I read this article recently and It got me thinking. Do we devalue community members, or potential community members who don't drink? A quote from the article, When alcohol is currency, non-alcoholic drinks are considered valueless, and the interests and needs of people who don’t drink alcohol are easily forgotten. Give it a read and let's talk. Can we do better in the ways that the article suggests? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/alcohol-and-inclusivity-planning-tech-events-with-non-alcoholic-options ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On Tuesday 04 November 2014, Michael Kugelmann wrote: On 04.11.2014 07:02, Roland Olbricht wrote: You should wait for further feedback, but I sounds to me like a US-American, not an OSM problem. as a person who usually doesn't drink alcohol I second Roland. Within all the events regarding OSM and open SW and hacking and I joined within the last 10 ...15 years drinking no alcohol was never a problem to me. I am in the same position (not drinking alcohol) and essentially have made the same experience. However i also realize that over the years and with age i have developed a high level of robustness against suptle pressure to participate in drinking alcohol. For younger people this can be different. This is however a more general problem of the acceptance of alcohol consumption in our society as a whole, at least in Europe and the US. I can see no specific problem for OSM here. On the contrary given the international nature of OSM i would consider particular focus on this topic misguided - there are such a large number of cultural differences that need to be dealt with - just think of food and various religious, medical and other dietary requirements, questions of adequate clothing etc. Conflicts and misunderstandings can never be fully avoided in such situations. Sensitivity, generocity and tolerance are much more helpful than fixed rules in these cases. Which is not meant to say though that the text linked by Richard Weait is not a useful guideline for anyone planning an OSM event. Just don't think alcoholic drinks are the only sensitive issue to be considered. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 04.11.2014 19:21, Christoph Hormann wrote This is however a more general problem of the acceptance of alcohol consumption in our society as a whole, at least in Europe and the US. I can see no specific problem for OSM here. [...] +1 a useful guideline for anyone planning an OSM event. I really second this. Cheers, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Paweł, On 11/04/2014 06:54 PM, Paweł Paprota wrote: I am regarded by most people as a troll by now but even trolls can feel pain at the sight of something placed on its head. I don't think anybody regards you as a troll. Trolls post shit to mailing lists because they like to spark protest. If everyone were to agree with a troll, the troll would be quite a failure. -- You did occasionally spark protest but I never had the impression that you were insincere in what you wrote. If everyone had agreed with you, you would certainly have been quite happy! Best Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
I read this article recently and It got me thinking. Do we devalue community members, or potential community members who don't drink? Thank you for the whole story. When I've read the subject line, it rather sounded like a joke. I've hardly seen the problem ever in the German software industry anywhere and even less in an OpenStreetMap environment. At the FOSSGIS conferences in 2012, 2013, and 2014 no alcohol was offered during the day sessions. Alcoholoic drinks were offered during the social event on one evening, but only along a larger number of non-alcoholic drinks: The identity-donating beverage for nerds is Club Mate, a softdrink with quite a lot of caffeine. In general society, also drinks like Bionade and alcohol-free beer have a favourable image over alcoholic drinks. Sparkling or non-sparking high quality water is usually also available and quite prestigious. The situation at our monthly local meetup in Bonn is similar. As is with other events from the tech industry here in Germany and some in France that I have attended. You should wait for further feedback, but I sounds to me like a US-American, not an OSM problem. Best regards, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Richard, Yes, it's quite significant. There are many events, eg at SOTM-US where I've felt very uncomfortable both due to alcohol and noise. It's hard to find public places to hold social events that don't serve alcohol, though. While I do drink on occasion (once every 3-4 months), I often feel a bit uncomfortable with the alcohol culture of geek events in general. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
Recently I attended the Google Summer of Code 10 Year Reunion. All the events there were set-up well for those that wished to drink and those that didn't. I think the significant things that I noticed that really helped were the following: 1. Good non-alcoholic options for those that didn't drink, also the events weren't at a bar. One was at the San Jose Tech Museum and the other was at a hotel. 2. Different spaces for people. Just meaning for example the Saturday event night had live music and board games. If the live music was too loud though there were places to retreat to not in the main ballroom. Of course this was held at a hotel so there were multiple room options. The board games in this case were really a nice touch for those drinking and non-drinking alike that maybe aren't that comfortable making small talk. Of course this is Google having a big event, so cost wasn't an issue. I do think there are lower cost ways to do this though. Especially if a conference is held at a university. In Washington DC when I lived there we had daytime events on the weekends that were usually a combination of mapping and editing data. Usually at a coffee shop or at one point outside at the zoo. Another option is offices, bookstores, coffeeshops, hackerspaces, community centers, libraries or other places that can be used for gatherings. Sometimes I find it funny having moved back from a country were the majority of the people didn't really drink (Indonesia) to the United States. There were way better non-alcohlic drinks in Indonesia as you might suspect. Though there isn't a reason not to have a couple options. Best, -Kate On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Richard, Yes, it's quite significant. There are many events, eg at SOTM-US where I've felt very uncomfortable both due to alcohol and noise. It's hard to find public places to hold social events that don't serve alcohol, though. While I do drink on occasion (once every 3-4 months), I often feel a bit uncomfortable with the alcohol culture of geek events in general. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
There's a variety of ways to meet and talk. At this event about three thousand people meet every Sunday. As you can see they eat, drink and talk together [1] all right. There is also child-care service [2], and genders are represented about equally [3], age groups too. By the way, the main event takes place on December 5 - 6, 2014 [4]. The online registration is open until November 9. It is an international event with 35000+ participants. There are different age groups, from 6 to 70+ years. brgds Oleksiy [1] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/62/3429.jpg [2] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/62/3399.jpg [3] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/59/3249.jpg http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/60/3302.jpg [4] http://escalade.ch/web/2014/en ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
As someone who does not drink coffee or beer it is a minor obstacle sometimes in social situations. The free beer draw has usually a negative effect on the odds of me attending some session. So far in Iceland we haven't been active in planning events but if I have a say in it we will make any alcoholic beverages an afterthought, I'm not sure how effective people are at drawing buildings on their 5th beer! --Jói Þann 1.11.2014 22:05, skrifaði Richard Weait: I read this article recently and It got me thinking. Do we devalue community members, or potential community members who don't drink? A quote from the article, When alcohol is currency, non-alcoholic drinks are considered valueless, and the interests and needs of people who don’t drink alcohol are easily forgotten. Give it a read and let's talk. Can we do better in the ways that the article suggests? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/alcohol-and-inclusivity-planning-tech-events-with-non-alcoholic-options ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol
On 11/1/2014 3:05 PM, Richard Weait wrote: I read this article recently and It got me thinking. Do we devalue community members, or potential community members who don't drink? A quote from the article, When alcohol is currency, non-alcoholic drinks are considered valueless, and the interests and needs of people who don’t drink alcohol are easily forgotten. Give it a read and let's talk. Can we do better in the ways that the article suggests? https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/alcohol-and-inclusivity-planning-tech-events-with-non-alcoholic-options We can do better. In fact, the OSM conferences I've been to have been quite bad for the expectation that everyone drinks alcohol. I can't personally speak to issues about safety, alcohol abuse, or being excluded by not drinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're there. I seldom drink alcohol, or for that matter, fizzy drinks. When, on the rare occasion, I do drink alcohol, it is normally at most one drink. I'm open about this, but I'll generally use the excuse that I'm driving to avoid questions. I can'd do this at conferences, where it's no longer true. I don't mind bars or pubs, provided that there are options other than alcohol. Unfortunately, at the past SOTM-US events I've attended, this is not always the case. The official after-conference events have tended to be loud venues with few non-alcoholic options, and those were difficult to obtain. When it takes five minutes to get water and it involves passing by multiple alcoholic drink coolers, there's something wrong. I have yet to go to an official after-conference event with any kind of juice selection. If a thousand dollars is being spend on beer, wine and cider, I don't think having water and a juice other than orange juice from concentrate is an unreasonable expectation. Even though many local OSM social events are held in held in pubs, I've found them better. I've gotten fewer strange looks when I ask for something non-alcoholic, and they've been at venues where the focus has been on conversation, not drinking. I'm not uncomfortable around a table of people slowly drinking while talking. As for some numbers, about a third of the people in the last meetup I had in a brewery-attached bar drank no alcohol that night. The inaugural Vancouver OSM meetup involved no alcohol at an evening social event, and no one complained at the lack. After it, a couple of us went to a pub, where we also drank no alcohol. A dozen of us, including drinkers, walked out of SOTM-US events with free alcohol because there was nothing to do there but drink. People who I've wanted to talk to at SOTM-US have not gone to some events because there was going to be nothing there but beer. By having an alcohol focused event with no other options, you're forcing all of these people away. This ended up being longer than I expected, but the more I thought about and talked to others, the more I realized we have a problem. I'm also not singling out SOTM-US because it's necessarily any worse, but because it's what I have experience with. Paul ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
