date:20190527

un articolo sulla storia delle mappe di navigazione:
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/trade-maps/index.html


sent from a phone

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[Talk-cu] name=WIFI_ETECSA

2019-05-27 Thread Frédéric Rodrigo


Hola,

Lo siento, pero voy a escribir en inglés.


I see many object like this:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4975076826

internet_access = wlan
name = WIFI_ETECSA
name:es = wifi etecsa
shop = mobile_phone


I think many are miss tagged. Unless I'm wrong, there are not always 
shop but only wifi hot spot?

I think name:es = wifi etecsa should be removed.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:internet_access

Frédéric.



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

2019-05-27 Thread GeDeOn .

Hi Stijn and all

In my opinion, a tunnel is something that was dug, in a hill or in mountain, 
under a river, ...

Otherwise I would think of a viaduct.

In that regard only your case #2 is a tunnel.

Just my 2 cents...

Pierre



Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

 Message d'origine 
De : Stijn Rombauts via Talk-be 
Date : 27/05/19 20:57 (GMT+01:00)
À : OpenStreetMap Belgium 
Cc : Stijn Rombauts 
Objet : [OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

Hi,

1. This is a bridge: no doubt.
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.9628551,5.0810297,3a,75y,328.21h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXz43z9vWyUiOpCVTschIUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

2. This is a tunnel: sure enough.
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.6138142,5.5973887,3a,75y,97.64h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRvKwojNbhvMdSBWG3zViLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

3. This looks like a tunnel, no? Or is the fact that the railway is on an 
embankment enough reason to make it a bridge?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5508531,4.7216376,3a,89.9y,51.8h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4GoklQWnN5bW6ugdo1grmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

4. This one looks more like a bridge:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5923923,4.6668939,3a,75y,57.67h,80.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4y-C9gvI9ZsUk9jcNQX4eA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

5. And this? Brunnel or tidge?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5214486,4.8868137,3a,75y,27.85h,81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx0n9EuFTEx27S4sCQ--GPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

6. And if it gets shorter?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5317414,4.9485687,3a,75y,39.18h,91.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdTd6puiPIvGKsLBzeCzB6Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

7. And this?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8660892,4.3648486,3a,75y,333.02h,85.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swvUHgLYhl8R5IXGVJ2QWiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

8. A bit more complicated: not only a railway, but also the platforms on a 
bridge? Or above a tunnel?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,63.96h,87.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

9. And if you turn around:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,258.54h,101.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

I am curious about your opinion...
But of course, what those things are, is not really the question. How should 
they be mapped? That's the question.

Regards,

StijnRR

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[Talk-us] Whole-US Garmin Map update - 2019-05-25

2019-05-27 Thread Dave Hansen

These are based off of Lambertus's work here:

http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

If you have questions or comments about these maps, please feel
free to ask.  However, please do not send me private mail.  The
odds are, someone else will have the same questions, and by
asking on the talk-us@ list, others can benefit.

Downloads:

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2019-05-25

Map to visualize what each file contains:


http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2019-05-25/kml/kml.html


FAQ



Why did you do this?

I wrote scripts to joined them myself to lessen the impact
of doing a large join on Lambertus's server.  I've also
cut them in large longitude swaths that should fit conveniently
on removable media.  

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2019-05-25

Can or should I seed the torrents?

Yes!!  If you use the .torrent files, please seed.  That web
server is in the UK, and it helps to have some peers on this
side of the Atlantic.

Why is my map missing small rectangular areas?

There have been some missing tiles from Lambertus's map (the
red rectangles),  I don't see any at the moment, so you may
want to update if you had issues with the last set.

Why can I not copy the large files to my new SD card?

If you buy a new card (especially SDHC), some are FAT16 from
the factory.  I had to reformat it to let me create a >2GB
file.

Does your map cover Mexico/Canada?

Yes!!  I have, for the purposes of this map, annexed Ontario
in to the USA.  Some areas of North America that are close
to the US also just happen to get pulled in to these maps.
This might not happen forever, and if you would like your
non-US area to get included, let me know. 

-- Dave


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[Talk-it] Source sentiero

2019-05-27 Thread Andreas Lattmann

Buongiorno, 
Il source del seguente sentiero [1] è riferito a: 

Esino Lario Carta escursionistica sentieri e toponimi - CAI, ANA, Associazione 
Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus

E su note: 

Va controllato il tracciato del sentiero con un gps

È lecito il source utilizzato? 

Un escursionista ha aperto una nota [2] chiedendo la cancellazione definendo il 
sentiero "Ravano totale/traccia di merda, da levare.".

Grazie
Andreas

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/294244973/history
[2] Nota #1783134 

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

2019-05-27 Thread Yves bxl-forever

Hello,

I would consider each situation from #3 to #9 here as a bridge.

Here’s why.  If there had never been a railway, the road would be where it is 
now, and it is perfectly flat and aligned with the houses nearby (implicitely 
level=0 and layer=0 in OSM).
On the contrary, the embankment is an artificial structure that has been built 
to raise the railway and make it fly over the road.

I tried to have a look at Infrabel’s Open Data portal, but couldn’t find a list 
of their bridges so far.  They manage about 4,800 bridges and it would make 
sense that our data match theirs.

Cheers.
Yves

On Mon, 27 May 2019 22:24:32 +0200
ghia  wrote:

> I think  some passages are called a mole pipe, but that makes it not a
> tunnel. 
> 
> Don't have tunnel vision: All your examples are railroad bridges. 
> 
> A tunnel has mosttimes also a depth: it lies not under, but beneath
> something and/or crosses several things. 
> 
> Also, sometimes a traffic sign F8 can be found near the entrence. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Gerard
> 
> OSMDoudou schreef op 2019-05-27 21:32:
> 
> > If it can help, Wikipedia cites criteria like twice as long as wide and 
> > "creating a confined area". 
> > 
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel 
> > https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel 
> > ___
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be  

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

2019-05-27 Thread ghia

I think  some passages are called a mole pipe, but that makes it not a
tunnel. 

Don't have tunnel vision: All your examples are railroad bridges. 

A tunnel has mosttimes also a depth: it lies not under, but beneath
something and/or crosses several things. 

Also, sometimes a traffic sign F8 can be found near the entrence. 

Regards, 

Gerard

OSMDoudou schreef op 2019-05-27 21:32:

> If it can help, Wikipedia cites criteria like twice as long as wide and 
> "creating a confined area". 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel 
> https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel 
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

2019-05-27 Thread Karel Adams

Hoi Stijn,

Het kan zijn dat ik iets mis - het is een zware dag geweest op het werk
:( - maar volstaat het niet om ter plekke eens te gaan kijken?

Let wel, in het kader van mijn eigen specialisme (vliegvelden in de
ruime zin van het woord) ben ik zelf vaak genoeg aan het mappen op
plaatsen waar ik nooit geweest ben, maar dan moet men ook beseffen dat
men maar wat in het wilde weg aan het gokken is - niets gaat boven
lokale waarneming! En dus kan men licht worden bijgestuurd door iemand
die in de buurt rondhangt.

Soms verkies ik toch een "educated guess" boven helemaal niks, maar ik
weet zeker dat velen dat omgekeerd zien.

Uw humoristische verwoordingen werden hier erg op prijs gesteld! Monkel,
monkel :)

Karel ADAMS

On 5/27/19 6:57 PM, Stijn Rombauts via Talk-be wrote:

Hi,

1. This is a bridge: no doubt.
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.9628551,5.0810297,3a,75y,328.21h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXz43z9vWyUiOpCVTschIUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

2. This is a tunnel: sure enough.
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.6138142,5.5973887,3a,75y,97.64h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRvKwojNbhvMdSBWG3zViLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

3. This looks like a tunnel, no? Or is the fact that the railway is on
an embankment enough reason to make it a bridge?

https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5508531,4.7216376,3a,89.9y,51.8h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4GoklQWnN5bW6ugdo1grmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

4. This one looks more like a bridge:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5923923,4.6668939,3a,75y,57.67h,80.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4y-C9gvI9ZsUk9jcNQX4eA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

5. And this? Brunnel or tidge?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5214486,4.8868137,3a,75y,27.85h,81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx0n9EuFTEx27S4sCQ--GPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

6. And if it gets shorter?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5317414,4.9485687,3a,75y,39.18h,91.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdTd6puiPIvGKsLBzeCzB6Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

7. And this?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8660892,4.3648486,3a,75y,333.02h,85.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swvUHgLYhl8R5IXGVJ2QWiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

8. A bit more complicated: not only a railway, but also the platforms
on a bridge? Or above a tunnel?

https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,63.96h,87.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

9. And if you turn around:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,258.54h,101.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl

I am curious about your opinion...
But of course, what those things are, is not really the question. How
should they be mapped? That's the question.

Regards,

StijnRR

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[OSM-talk-be] bridge or tunnel?

2019-05-27 Thread Stijn Rombauts via Talk-be

Hi,
1. This is a bridge: no 
doubt.https://www.google.be/maps/@50.9628551,5.0810297,3a,75y,328.21h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXz43z9vWyUiOpCVTschIUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
2. This is a tunnel: sure 
enough.https://www.google.be/maps/@50.6138142,5.5973887,3a,75y,97.64h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRvKwojNbhvMdSBWG3zViLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
3. This looks like a tunnel, no? Or is the fact that the railway is on an 
embankment enough reason to make it a bridge?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5508531,4.7216376,3a,89.9y,51.8h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4GoklQWnN5bW6ugdo1grmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
4. This one looks more like a 
bridge:https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5923923,4.6668939,3a,75y,57.67h,80.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4y-C9gvI9ZsUk9jcNQX4eA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
5. And this? Brunnel or tidge?
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5214486,4.8868137,3a,75y,27.85h,81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx0n9EuFTEx27S4sCQ--GPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
6. And if it gets 
shorter?https://www.google.be/maps/@50.5317414,4.9485687,3a,75y,39.18h,91.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdTd6puiPIvGKsLBzeCzB6Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
7. And 
this?https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8660892,4.3648486,3a,75y,333.02h,85.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swvUHgLYhl8R5IXGVJ2QWiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
8. A bit more complicated: not only a railway, but also the platforms on a 
bridge? Or above a 
tunnel?https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,63.96h,87.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
9. And if you turn 
around:https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8101922,4.3991964,3a,75y,258.54h,101.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2ioHz72P7Ju0aTcMLalGKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl
I am curious about your opinion...But of course, what those things are, is not 
really the question. How should they be mapped? That's the question.

Regards,
StijnRR
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

On Monday 27 May 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> I admit I am not convinced that it addresses the problem.
>
> I think that problem in in specific validator rule that is clearly
> unwanted by general community* and it does not matter when and how it
> appears.

Yes, i agree for this particular situation.

The idea was more as an example that it is not necessary to deploy iD in 
exactly the configuration it is released with on osm.org.

I also think the label "upgrade the tags" is highly misleading for this 
kind of function and the idea of having a button to manually trigger 
this feature but not being transparent about what this actually does is 
not a very good one.  But indeed this is somwhat sidestepping the core 
issue here.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform




27 May 2019, 19:38 by o...@imagico.de:

> On Monday 27 May 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>>
>> By default iD actively suggests to
>> - change objects modified by user (like JOSM)
>> - objects selected by user during editing
>>
>
> Wouldn't it be relatively simple to change the default to only touch 
> features modified by the user in the version deployed on osm.org?
>
So that it would change from

- user selects object, info panel including "upgrade the tags" button appears
- user edits tags/geometry

to

- user selects object, info panel appears
- user edits tags/geometry
- "upgrade the tags" button appears

?

I admit I am not convinced that it addresses the problem.

I think that problem in in specific validator rule that is clearly unwanted by 
general
community* and it does not matter when and how it appears.



* I was adding highway=footway to man_made=pier and public_transport=platform 
mapped
as lines long before iD introduced this change but I still think that 
complaints about this rule
should be at least treated seriously

For adding highway=footway on public_transport=platform areas I disagree both 
with how it
was introduced and with rule itself
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Re: [talk-cz] Kam hlásit chyby v mapě?

2019-05-27 Thread Marián Kyral

On 27. 05. 19 13:40, Tonda wrote:
> Zdravím,
>
> ve svém okolí občas narazím na nepřesnost nebo chybu v mapě, kam a jak
> nejlépe toto hlásit? Bohužel nemám kapacitu na to nastudovat jak
> správně editovat a provádět editace sám.
>
> Díky.
>
> Tonda

Ahoj,
hodně záleží na tom, jakého typu jsou ty chyby nebo nepřesnosti.  Na
něco není potřeba se učit tagování. Zadávání  a úpravy POI zvládá i
Maps.Me a OsmAnd.
OSM Poznámky jsou preferovaná cesta, nicméně není pak jisté, že si toho
někdo hned všimne. Taky je občas rychlejší udělat si to rovnou, než to
složitě popisovat ;-)
Jak na to ti poradíme.

A pokud hraješ geocaching, tak na geocaching.cz je speciální vlákno
http://www.geocaching.cz/topic/27893-chyby-v-openstreetmap/

Marián

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[Talk-ca] Batiments - Fonctions orthogonales

2019-05-27 Thread Pierre Béland via Talk-ca

J'ai progressé dans le développement des fonctions pour orthogonaliser les 
bâtiments.  Ce n'est qu'une version préliminaire, incomplète, mais pour ceux 
intéresés par ces développements, il y a déja sufffisamment de fonctions de 
disponibles pour voir la progression et les défis que cela représente.
J'ai  transféré cette version préliminaire sur Github.  La méthodologie est 
relativement simple conceptuellement, mais il y a beaucoup d'obstacles à 
opérationnaliser avec les outils actuels.  
Une fonction de rotation permet la rotation d'un coté de bâtiment pour rendre 
orthogonal l'angle avec le segment précédent.  Un pivot central au centre du 
segment est utilisé.  Cette méhode peut être rafinée de multiples façons. Mais 
c'est un début.

Je regarde toujours la possibilité d'utiliser les fonctions topologiques pour 
éviter des croisements de bâtiments.
Je vais aussi ajouter de la documentation supplémentaire, et décrire la méthode 
en créant une page wiki dans le répertoire github.
N'hésitez pas à commenter ces développements.
voir 
Fonctions PostgreSQL-PostGIS  Orthogonalisation
https://github.com/pierzen/OQ_Analysis/tree/master/sql/Orthogonal

échantillons et tests
https://github.com/pierzen/OQ_Analysis/tree/master/sql/test

résultats fichiers geojson
https://github.com/pierzen/OQ_Analysis/tree/master/sql/test/geojson 
 
Pierre 
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Re: [talk-cz] Upgrade OsmHiCheck

2019-05-27 Thread majka

On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 16:00, Tom Ka  wrote:

> ted jsou 3 typy ikon podle druhu problemu, ale tohle muze byt uchovano
> v barve ikony, jestli to mas nejak vyzkousene, posles mi bud ukzkovy
> GPX nebo staci ty casti:
>
> XXX
>

Tohle vyjelo exportem z Locusu:
information : "informace" - u mě "information:board"
map: "mapa"
triangle-down: u mě "bod záchrany", je z jiné sady ikon Locusu a
bude asi chtít něco lepšího
signpost-3: rozcestník
symbol_inter: "otazník" - tedy u mě jen informace bez dalšího

Ty ikony jsou brané odsud , jen Locus je
nabral  a nabízí ke
stažení v několika sadách.

Kompletní krátký soubor gpx z Locusu, jeden bod pro každou kategorii je v
příloze.

Majka


rozcestníky.gpx
Description: Binary data
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

On Monday 27 May 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> By default iD actively suggests to
> - change objects modified by user (like JOSM)
> - objects selected by user during editing

Wouldn't it be relatively simple to change the default to only touch 
features modified by the user in the version deployed on osm.org?

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-pe] Peru Earthquake

2019-05-27 Thread Omar Vega Ramos

El 2019-05-27 11:39, theo.andra...@gmail.com escribió:
> Sí, creamos esos. ¿Hay otras áreas que crees que serían buenas para mapear?
> 
> Gracias!
> Theo
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On 27 May 2019, at 17:16, Johnattan Rupire  wrote:
>>
>> Perfecto! Gra ias Omar y gracias Theo!
>>
>> El 27 de mayo de 2019 10:57:30 a. m. PET, Omar Vega Ramos 
>>  escribió:
>>> El 2019-05-26 11:30, Theo A escribió:
 Hola
 ¿Nos preguntábamos cómo se está viendo la situación en el suelo de
>>> Perú?
 ¿Sería de uso una activación HOT en cualquier ubicación específica?
 Muchas gracias,

 Hi,
 We were wondering what the situation is looking like on the ground in
>>> Peru?
 Would a HOT activation on any specific locations be of use?
 Many thanks,

 *Theo Andrae*
 Volunteer Disaster Activation Team Lead
 theo.and...@hotosm.org
 Current Activation: Cyclone Idai - Mozambique and Zimbabwe

 *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
 *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic
>>> Development*
 web  | twitter  |
>>> facebook
  | donate
>>> 
 ___
 Talk-pe mailing list
 Talk-pe@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
>>>
>>> Hola a todos
>>>
>>> Se han creado tareas sobre este tema:
>>>
>>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6059
>>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6060
>>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6061
>>>
>>> Saludos
>>>
>>> --
>>> Omar Vega
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-pe mailing list
>>> Talk-pe@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
>>
>> --
>> Enviado desde mi dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Por favor, disculpa mi 
>> brevedad.
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
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Hola Theo

Según el reporte del COEN, otro de los lugares con mayor número de
familias damnificadas y viviendas inhabitables es el distrito del
Sauce[1], en San Martín.

Saludos

[0]
https://www.indeci.gob.pe/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/REPORTE-COMPLEMENTARIO-N%C2%BA-1262-27MAY2019-SISMO-DE-MAGNITUD-8.0-CON-EPICENTRO-EN-LAGUNAS-LORETO-05.pdf
[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1971731

-- 
Omar Vega

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

27 May 2019, 17:51 by o...@imagico.de:

>  actively modifying features the mapper has not touched in 
> their fundamental semantics.  As already hinted i know too little about 
> how iD works to specifically say something about how it fits in here.
>
By default iD actively suggests to 
- change objects modified by user (like JOSM)
- objects selected by user during editing

iD settings can be changed to suggest changes to all downloaded objects
(like JOSM)
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] ID suite

2019-05-27 Thread osm . sanspourriel


Le 27/05/2019 à 16:32, Florimond Berthoux - florimond.berth...@gmail.com
a écrit :


C'est une autocomplétion bête et méchante parce qu'en faire une
intelligente ça doit être autrement plus compliqué.


Pas si compliqué, comme je le proposais et comme le propose Marc il
"suffit" de virer les queues de comètes.

Le 27/05/2019 à 17:14, marc marc - marc_marc_...@hotmail.com a écrit :

- proposer un moyen pour utiliser taginfo sauf les erreurs:)
je viens de proposer d'au moins ignorer les % insignifiants,
ce qui devrait éviter les typos (mais ignore aussi ce qui est
très rare mais correct)


Oui, on pourrait comme le fait taginfo regarder s'il y a une page sur le
wiki. Et qu'elle n'en déconseille pas l'usage.

Le 27/05/2019 à 16:32, Florimond Berthoux - florimond.berth...@gmail.com
a écrit :

Il ne faut pas y voir du mal.


Ce serait la première fois je serais assez d'accord. Frederik ou
François ont aussi eu des retours similaires.

Marc, oui c'est une doôcratie, mais quand certains sont rémunérés, c'est
plus difficile d'équilibrer le système.

Jean-Yvon

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Dave F via talk




On 27/05/2019 16:26, Frederik Ramm wrote:


AFAIK many editors for example silently drop "created-by" and didn't
hear anyone complain about that.
That's a bit different. "created-by" was, err,,, created by the 
developers of the API/editors. Contributors never added it themselves.


It hasn't really been dropped, just transferred from individual entities 
to changeset meta data.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-pe] Peru Earthquake

2019-05-27 Thread theo . andrae14

Sí, creamos esos. ¿Hay otras áreas que crees que serían buenas para mapear?

Gracias!
Theo
Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone
> On 27 May 2019, at 17:16, Johnattan Rupire  wrote:
> 
> Perfecto! Gra ias Omar y gracias Theo! 
> 
> El 27 de mayo de 2019 10:57:30 a. m. PET, Omar Vega Ramos  
> escribió:
>> El 2019-05-26 11:30, Theo A escribió:
>>> Hola
>>> ¿Nos preguntábamos cómo se está viendo la situación en el suelo de
>> Perú?
>>> ¿Sería de uso una activación HOT en cualquier ubicación específica?
>>> Muchas gracias,
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> We were wondering what the situation is looking like on the ground in
>> Peru?
>>> Would a HOT activation on any specific locations be of use?
>>> Many thanks,
>>> 
>>> *Theo Andrae*
>>> Volunteer Disaster Activation Team Lead
>>> theo.and...@hotosm.org
>>> Current Activation: Cyclone Idai - Mozambique and Zimbabwe
>>> 
>>> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
>>> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic
>> Development*
>>> web  | twitter  |
>> facebook
>>>  | donate
>> 
>>> ___
>>> Talk-pe mailing list
>>> Talk-pe@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
>> 
>> Hola a todos
>> 
>> Se han creado tareas sobre este tema:
>> 
>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6059
>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6060
>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6061
>> 
>> Saludos
>> 
>> -- 
>> Omar Vega
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
> 
> -- 
> Enviado desde mi dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Por favor, disculpa mi 
> brevedad.
> ___
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Re: [Talk-pe] Peru Earthquake

2019-05-27 Thread Johnattan Rupire

Perfecto! Gra ias Omar y gracias Theo! 

El 27 de mayo de 2019 10:57:30 a. m. PET, Omar Vega Ramos  
escribió:
>El 2019-05-26 11:30, Theo A escribió:
>> Hola
>> ¿Nos preguntábamos cómo se está viendo la situación en el suelo de
>Perú?
>> ¿Sería de uso una activación HOT en cualquier ubicación específica?
>> Muchas gracias,
>> 
>> Hi,
>> We were wondering what the situation is looking like on the ground in
>Peru?
>> Would a HOT activation on any specific locations be of use?
>> Many thanks,
>> 
>> *Theo Andrae*
>> Volunteer Disaster Activation Team Lead
>> theo.and...@hotosm.org
>> Current Activation: Cyclone Idai - Mozambique and Zimbabwe
>> 
>> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
>> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic
>Development*
>> web  | twitter  |
>facebook
>>  | donate
>
>> ___
>> Talk-pe mailing list
>> Talk-pe@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pe
>
>Hola a todos
>
>Se han creado tareas sobre este tema:
>
>https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6059
>https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6060
>https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/6061
>
>Saludos
>
>-- 
>Omar Vega
>
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-- 
Enviado desde mi dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Por favor, disculpa mi 
brevedad.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

On Monday 27 May 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >
> > it seems clear to me that any tool that leads mappers to
> > unconsciously perform automated edits could and should be blocked
> > from write access to the API and accordingly should not be
> > available on osm.org.
>
> I guess that in cases where it's a widely accepted community decision
> instead of "fuck you stinking mailing list pseudo community, I'll do
> what I please and anyway my friends all like it", it can be
> acceptable. AFAIK many editors for example silently drop "created-by"
> and didn't hear anyone complain about that.

There is of course a difference between silently dropping obsolete tags 
evidently containing no geographic information when editing a feature 
anyway and actively modifying features the mapper has not touched in 
their fundamental semantics.  As already hinted i know too little about 
how iD works to specifically say something about how it fits in here.

I don't think a mechanical edit should be considered acceptable without 
discussion because it is obviously beneficial.  If that is the case the 
discussion can be short but it still should happen - if for no other 
reason than as a safety check to avoid errors.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 5/27/19 12:58, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> * Automated Edits code of conduct
>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct)
>> : You take advantage of mappers unconsciously adding highway=footway
>> to platforms. This is an automated edit.

> it seems clear to me that any tool that leads mappers to unconsciously 
> perform automated edits could and should be blocked from write access 
> to the API and accordingly should not be available on osm.org. 

I guess that in cases where it's a widely accepted community decision
instead of "fuck you stinking mailing list pseudo community, I'll do
what I please and anyway my friends all like it", it can be acceptable.
AFAIK many editors for example silently drop "created-by" and didn't
hear anyone complain about that.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[Talk-ko] 나무의 종을 추가하는 데 도움이 될 JOSM 프리셋

2019-05-27 Thread Dongha Hwang

저번에 동아시아 나무 프리셋을 제작하고 있는 Goda Maripo님을 언급한 적이 있습니다.
이번에는 본인이 아예 MIT 라이선스로 리포지토리를 배포하기로 결정했더라고요.
그래서 저번에 한국어만 덧붙인 프리셋을 이 참에 공개하려 합니다.

JOSM에서 "사전 집합" => "사전 집합 환경 설정" => + 클릭 =>
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/depth221/preset_generator_for_JOSM/master/presets/test.xml
입력
=> 적용

Maripo님은 JOSM 프리셋 XML 파일을 일일이 작성하지 않고, TSV 파일(표 데이터)를 넣으면 XML 파일로 출력하는
프로그램을 직접 짜셨더라고요. 그래서 프리셋의 기본 언어가 일본어로 되어 있는 건 쉽게 고치지 못하고 있습니다.
현재 XML 파일 생성기 차원에서 기본 언어를 영어로 고치는 작업을 하고는 있습니다만... 시간이 워낙 없어서 언제 끝날지는
모르겠습니다.
ᐧ
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] ID suite

2019-05-27 Thread marc marc

version courte :
corrigeons les erreurs pour éviter que taginfo les poussent en avant :)
espérons qu'un jour qlq fasse un fork/PR non problématique d'iD
améliorons la qualité du wiki

version longue :
Je trouve que c'est important de comprendre les différents problèmes
qui mènent au fiasco actuel :
- les contributeurs préfèrent principalement ajouter plutôt que corriger
suffit de regarder dans osmose pour voir qu'il n'y pas presque
aucun endroit avec 0 erreur de niveau grave (même si certains analyses
devraient sans doute changer de catégorie).
conséquence logique, la difficile de séparer "in use" valable et erreur.
- le gars a voulu monter une équipe de "changer le wiki pour faire 
correspondre à ce que fait iD"... il s'est fait évidement incendier
et du coup "le wiki n'est pas conforme à la réalité de iD".
- il manque aussi bcp de page wiki. du coup difficile de se baser
sur l’existence de page wiki pour automatiquement décider par exemple
la liste des valeurs possible pour un tag.
Du coup dans sa logique "je suis chef d'équipe donc je décide",
ben il décide tout seul pour iD, c'est pas la solution mais c'est 
compréhensible, osm est une doôcratie, celui qui fait à + de poids
que celui qui signale.

3 pistes de solution :

- corriger les erreurs :) je parle à un niveau un peu "massif"
c'est compliqué, faut discuter des éditions de masse
mais c'est aussi un gage d'amélioration de masse :)
la piste qui aurait le meilleur rapport coût/bénéfice
serrait de commencer par la liste des tags dépréciés,
classé par occurrence en France et de discuter pour chacun
d'eux si c'est censé de faire une édition de masse pour corriger.
ou un projet de la semaine ou du mois pour ceux qui en ont besoin.

- forker iD pour en avoir un soit sans les parties problématiques
soit qui utilisent des preset + communautaire comme ceux que
maintient Simon Pole. selon lui c'est possible mais il faudrait
du temps (= des gens qui ont envie de passer du temps) pour
mettre à jour l'outil de conversion qui a existé mais aussi
évidement pour maintenir le fork (au moins un check mensuel
qui regarde si la maj casse qlq chose ou pas)

- proposer un moyen pour utiliser taginfo sauf les erreurs :)
je viens de proposer d'au moins ignorer les % insignifiants,
ce qui devrait éviter les typos (mais ignore aussi ce qui est
très rare mais correct)

Le 27.05.19 à 16:32, Florimond Berthoux a écrit :
> Il a très bien compris, et ce n'est pas de l'humour.
> 
> C'est une autocomplétion bête et méchante parce qu'en faire une 
> intelligente ça doit être autrement plus compliqué.
> 
> Il ne faut pas y voir du mal.
> 
> Le lun. 27 mai 2019 à 11:34,  > a écrit :
> 
> Value autocomplete wrong behavior
> 
> 
> Tag autocomplete wrong behavior
> 
> 
> Je ne trouve plus le fil de discussion où je parlais des problèmes d'ID.
> 
> Deux exemples ci-dessus : je signale que l'autocomplétion tant des
> clés que des valeurs fait un peu n'importe quoi, proposant des
> valeurs fausses.
> 
> La réponse d'un des deux développeurs payés : vire les valeurs
> incorrectes de la base comme ça elles ne seront plus proposées.
> 
> C'est de l'humour j'espère. Je ne sais si c'est qu'il n'a vraiment
> pas compris ou si comme déjà dit, ils n'en ont rien à faire car ils
> ont décider de baser ça bêtement à partir de taginfos.
> 
> Même sans utiliser le wiki il y a moyen de faire mieux mais
> visiblement ils savent eux.
> 
> C'est gênant de voir un développement si peu communautaire dans une
> brique importante de l'écosystème.
> 
> Jean-Yvon
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
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> 
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[Talk-ko] 주간OSM #459 미번역에 대해

2019-05-27 Thread Dongha Hwang

미숙한 번역에도 주간OSM을 항상 보아 주시는 분들께 감사드립니다.
현재 #459와 #461의 한국어판이 아직 없습니다. #461은 방금 번역을 끝냈으니까 내일쯤이면 사이트에 올라올 것 같습니다.
그러나 #459는 앞으로도 번역하기 힘들 것 같습니다. 고로 미번역본이지만 번역한 부분까지만 여기에 올려 둡니다.
올해 수능을 보다 보니까 주간OSM 번역할 시간만 겨우 남게 되었네요.

여러 번 지각한 것에 대해 다시 한번 사과드립니다.

지도 제작

- 처음에 n76이 camp_site=camp_pitch
태그를
추가하자고 제안한 지 정확히 4년이 지난 현재, 드디어 투표가 시작되었습니다
.
해당 태그는 캠핑장에서 텐트를 치는 곳이나 캠핑카를 주차하는 곳에 사용합니다.

- amilopowers가 도로가 일으키는 소음 공해 정도를 나타내기 위해 surface=whispering_asphalt와
surface=silent_asphalt 중 하나를 쓰자고 제안했습니다
.
그러나 tagging 메일링 리스트에서는 asphalt:type=*이나 asphalt=whisper, 아니면
noise_reducing_surface=yes 등을 선호하는 사람이 많았습니다.

- iD 편집기에 대마초 상점(shop=cannabis)이 추가되었습니다

- 기저귀 가는 테이블을 나타내기 위해 changing_table=* 태그를 추가하자는 Valor Naram의 제안
에
무수한 피드백이 들어오고 있습니다.

커뮤니티

- OSM Ghana 의 설립자 Enock Seth Nyamador
가 독일 뮌헨에서 GIS 석사 학위 과정을 이수하기로 했습니다.
안타깝게도 Enock은 Erasmus Mundi에서 제공하는 장학금을 받지 못했고, 현재 Go Fund Me
사이트에서 크라우드 펀딩을 받고
있습니다.

- 멕시코의 TV 방송국 TV UNAM에서 멕시코 오픈스트리트맵 커뮤니티의 Miriam Gonzales, Céline
Jacquin과 인터뷰
를 가졌습니다.

- Valeriy Trubin이 러시아의 오픈스트리트맵 기여자들과 인터뷰(1
- 자동 번역

, 2 - 자동 번역

)를
가졌습니다. 러시아의 기여자들은 자신들이 오픈스트리트맵을 접하게 된 계기, 오픈스트리트맵의 미래와 오픈스트리트맵에서 바뀌었으면 하는
것들을 언급했습니다.

- 4월 말, 러시아에서 "Spring staircases"
계획(자동 번역

)이
추진되었습니다. 1주일 동안 기여자들은 주거 건물의 입구와 계단, 동·호수(flat number)를 입력했습니다. 그 결과
(자동 번역

),
약 1,500개에 달하는 계단이 오픈스트리트맵에 추가되었습니다.

- 미국 일리노이주 에번스턴의 노스웨스턴 대학 소속 박사 Maitraye Das가 ACM CHI 2019(ACM
의
학회)에서 미국 지역 오픈스트리트맵을 대상으로 성적 편향을 조사한 결과
를 보고했습니다. 상위 2,000명의 기여자들에게
성별을 부여하고(가능한 경우에만), '남성적(masculinised)'/'여성적(feminised)'(전문 용어) 지물을 얼마나 많이
추가했는지를 조사하여 점수로 환산했습니다. 여타 연구에서 나타났던 것처럼, 오픈스트리트맵 기여자의 대다수(95% 정도)는 남성으로
나타났습니다. 그러나 연구자들은 "기여분에서 자기 중심적 성적 편향이 나타났다는 증거를 찾을 수 없었다(we do not see
evidence of gender-based self-focus bias in their contributions)"라고 말했습니다.

- 네팔에서 두 번째로 큰 도시, 포카라에서 지도책을 제작하는 "Map Book" 프로젝트를 개시했습니다

.
지도책은 Secondary Cities(2C) 프로젝트의 Geonode 웹 포털과 오픈스트리트맵의 데이터를 이용해 제작합니다. 현지
지리 데이터는 카트만두 리빙랩(Kathmandu Living Labs)(2C 포카라(2C Pokhara) 프로젝트의 지원을 받음)에서
제공합니다. 카트만두 리빙랩은 의료, 수도 공급, 교육, 사업 관련 지물을 추가하기 위해 현지 정부와 협력하고 있습니다.

들여오기

- Robert Bell(오픈스트리트맵 닉네임 Itsamap!
, 레딧 닉네임 bjjptq)이 오픈스트리트맵에
가져오기 위한 목적으로 현지 데이터를 얻는 방법을 자세히 소개했습니다

.
현지 관공서(특히 국토부)와의 지속적이고 폭넓은 대화가 데이터 습득의 핵심입니다. Robert는 여기에 더해 오픈스트리트맵에 데이터를
들여올 때 도움이 될 조언들을 해 주었습니다.

OpenStreetMap 재단

- 오픈스트리트맵 재단 이사회의 4월 24일 회의록
이 공개되었습니다.
다만 GlobalLogic 관련 안건은 비공개로 지정되었습니다.

행사

- Srikar Arepalli가 'VNR GNU/Linux 사용자 그룹' 모임에서 오픈스트리트맵 관련 연설을 할 사람을 찾고
있습니다 .

ᐧ
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Jo

For a very long time I have been trying to adopt the public_transport
scheme. After several years of asking it would be rendered on its own
without the need for highway=bus_stop tags, I'm giving up on it and came to
the conclusion that

highway=bus_stop on nodes next to the highway

and

highway=platform / railway=platform on dedicated OSM ways, where actual
platforms exist

works just fine.

This has been discussed on the public transport list very recently, but as
usual, without any resolution one way or the other. Status quo rules.

It is disingenious of iD developers to muddy the waters further though.

Polyglot

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 3:55 PM Dave F via talk 
wrote:

> On 27/05/2019 12:23, Phil Wyatt wrote:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dplatform
> >
> > This suggests replacing highway=platform with public_transport=platform
>
> Most of the public_transport=* tags are pure duplicates of existing,
> more popular tags. They add nothing to the OSM database except confusion
> & errors.
>
> Even the person who conceived the scheme admits it didn't work &
> recommending it be dropped.
>
> It's disappointing & frustrating to see the iD editor promote them with
> the inaccurate claim of "Some tags change over time and should be updated."
>
> DaveF
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] ID suite

2019-05-27 Thread Florimond Berthoux

Il a très bien compris, et ce n'est pas de l'humour.

C'est une autocomplétion bête et méchante parce qu'en faire une
intelligente ça doit être autrement plus compliqué.

Il ne faut pas y voir du mal.

Le lun. 27 mai 2019 à 11:34,  a écrit :

> Value autocomplete wrong behavior
> 
>
> Tag autocomplete wrong behavior
> 
>
> Je ne trouve plus le fil de discussion où je parlais des problèmes d'ID.
>
> Deux exemples ci-dessus : je signale que l'autocomplétion tant des clés
> que des valeurs fait un peu n'importe quoi, proposant des valeurs fausses.
>
> La réponse d'un des deux développeurs payés : vire les valeurs incorrectes
> de la base comme ça elles ne seront plus proposées.
>
> C'est de l'humour j'espère. Je ne sais si c'est qu'il n'a vraiment pas
> compris ou si comme déjà dit, ils n'en ont rien à faire car ils ont décider
> de baser ça bêtement à partir de taginfos.
>
> Même sans utiliser le wiki il y a moyen de faire mieux mais visiblement
> ils savent eux.
>
> C'est gênant de voir un développement si peu communautaire dans une brique
> importante de l'écosystème.
>
> Jean-Yvon
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>


-- 
Florimond Berthoux
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Re: [OSM-ja] Feature Proposal - Voting - 投票-改定提案 Japan tagging/Road types Implies and Useful combination

2019-05-27 Thread yuu hayashi

hayashiです
投票中の[改定提案
Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types]ですが、延長２週間のところ反対意見がないようなので明日、提案の内容でJapannTaggingの更新を行う予定です。

Warin61 
さんから下記のようなコメントを頂いています。
「I *have comments* but abstain from voting on this proposal. In the last
table for the tag 'path' there is a column entry for motor_vehicle=yes,
usually path would imply motor_vehicle=no, where there is provision for
motor vehicle I would use highway=track --Warin61
 (talk
) 00:47, 24 May 2019
(UTC)」
これは、おそらく「Features/Pages
affected（影響がある機能／ページ）」の項目が全文日本語のみで既述されていたために表の意味を取り違えたものだと思われます。投票中ですが、英語話者のために英語での簡単なタイトルを付加しました。

ご意見、並びに、投票によるご協力ありがとうございました。

2019年5月13日(月) 22:28 yuu hayashi :

> hayashiです
>
> 投票中の[改定提案 Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types]ですが、投票数が２件しかないため投票期間を延期いたします。
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types
>
> ２週間立っても、反対意見がでなければ「改定」を実施するつもりです。
>
> みなさまの 投票によるOSMへの貢献に期待しています。
>
> 2019年4月27日(土) 7:44 yuu hayashi :
>
>> hayashiです
>>
>> [[Japan_tagging#Road_types]] の「Implies」と「Useful
>> combination」項目の改定提案のVoting(承認投票)を開始しました。
>>
>> ５月11日（土）までを投票期間としました。
>>
>>
>> 投票は下記のURLへ
>>
>> [改定提案 Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types]
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types
>>
>> [現行のJapan_tagging#Road_types]
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Road_types
>>
>> みなさまの 投票によるOSMへの貢献に期待しています。
>>
>
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Re: [talk-cz] Upgrade OsmHiCheck

2019-05-27 Thread Tom Ka

po 27. 5. 2019 v 11:06 odesílatel majkaz  napsal:
> Když funguji už rybářova žena, tak tři přání:
>
> na mapě, rozdělit typ "chybného rozcestníku" stejně, jako je to u vyfocených, 
> jen je dát šedivě - třeba jen stejnou ikonu jako na vyfocený objekt, ale 
> ponechat jen obrysy objektu bez výplně. Tj. na information:board, 
> information:map nedávat ikonou rozcestníku. Popřemýšlet, zda by nebylo možné 
> nějak vizuálně oddělit chybný cyklo a pěší rozcestník
s tim uz jsme s marianem neco zacali resit - viz.
https://github.com/osmcz/osmcz/issues/183

> v gpx souboru:  změnit tak, aby ikony ukazovaly typ objektu, podobně jako to 
> mám v příloze, a ne vše (většina) jako hvězdičky
ted jsou 3 typy ikon podle druhu problemu, ale tohle muze byt uchovano
v barve ikony, jestli to mas nejak vyzkousene, posles mi bud ukzkovy
GPX nebo staci ty casti:

XXX

pro jednotlive typy varianty?
(vzdy je potreba mit ikonu pro "other")

> gpx soubor rozdělit, minimálně oddělit ty rozcestníky, jinak asi tak, jak 
> navrhuješ
asi to udelam podobne jako s proximity, bude mozne filtrovat, kdyz
nebude filtr zadany,bude vse, jeste popremyslim.

> a bonusové přání: viz výše, ale přihodit jeden společný gpx soubor pro ty, co 
> budou chtít vše najednou.
to urcite necham, nekdy se to hodi.

Diky za inspirace ;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Dave F via talk


On 27/05/2019 12:23, Phil Wyatt wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dplatform

This suggests replacing highway=platform with public_transport=platform


Most of the public_transport=* tags are pure duplicates of existing, 
more popular tags. They add nothing to the OSM database except confusion 
& errors.


Even the person who conceived the scheme admits it didn't work & 
recommending it be dropped.


It's disappointing & frustrating to see the iD editor promote them with 
the inaccurate claim of "Some tags change over time and should be updated."


DaveF

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

Am Mo., 27. Mai 2019 um 15:23 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend :

>   Occasionally there are examples of people
> accepting suggestions like this without thinking, and what I'd normally
> do in such cases is to comment on the changeset concerned and politely
> explain why in this particular case the suggestion isn't a good one.



As the iD editor is promoted as and often used by newbies (not
exclusively), it is no wonder those newbies accept improved suggestions,
they do not have the experience and knowledge which would be required to
judge about such things, and as they are on the "official page" it looks to
them like an "official suggestion".




>
> You'd also need to ask the user whether they were prompted to make an
> "improvement" by the editor or whether they added it manually (speaking
> personally I'd usually draw railway platforms as areas and I can
> certainly think of places where I'd draw a linear footpath along as
> well).



After looking at some features with both tags in my area, actually only
very few were from iD and added recently (yet), the rest (very few in
total) had been added years before. I refrained from commenting the new
changesets, because it was new users and I didn't want to scare them away:

Complaining about an edit of theirs which was suggested to them by "us",
would have either looked as if we were fighting in the inside (left hand
vs. right hand), or as if this was a completely chaotic project (unclear
how to act), or at least one where as soon as you contribute you would have
to justify yourself against some selfappointed block warden (de:Blockwart)

I agree there are cases where a hint can make sense but still requires
judgement, but our main front page editor shouldn't suggest automatic
tagging improvements which are rejected by the majority of the community,
and not even those where a significant number of people rejects them.

Commenting the changesets and creating noise with new users is not the way
to go, as polite as you may be able to write. We might excuse to them for
reverting this part of their edit, at most ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] highway=residential con access=permissive

Am Mo., 27. Mai 2019 um 14:50 Uhr schrieb Marcello :

> Per tornare all'oggetto del thread io metto "permissive" alle strade che
> hanno un cartello di "Strada privata" ma senza nessun segnale di divieto o
> barriere di accesso, tipo questa:
> https://www.rivalta-trebbia.it/sentiero-nel-bosco-di-croara/. Lo
> interpreto come proprietà privata, per cui il proprietario potrebbe
> chiudere l'accesso se volesse,
>


il proprietario di una strada la può chiudere soltanto in certe circostanze
(o meglio, non lo può fare in certe circostanze). "Strada privata" non
tratta dell'accesso, ma della proprietà (e anche a chi spetta il dovere di
manutenzione / tenerla in uno stato sicuro).

Per noi al livello di access le strade private non sono differenti delle
altre strade (a meno che non ci siano cartelli del tipo "vietato l'accesso"
o simile, oppure un cancello.
Quindi "permissive" va bene se sai di sicuro che il proprietario potrebbe
chiudere la strada, altrimenti è meglio non mettere niente.

Ciao,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Andy Townsend


On 27/05/2019 12:08, Jo wrote:

And the disease is spreading:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Jnd

I'm scared. This needs to be mitigated, but indeed, how?

Suggestions about tag improvements by an editor are not a new thing - 
JOSM has had them for ages.  Occasionally there are examples of people 
accepting suggestions like this without thinking, and what I'd normally 
do in such cases is to comment on the changeset concerned and politely 
explain why in this particular case the suggestion isn't a good one.  
You'd also need to ask the user whether they were prompted to make an 
"improvement" by the editor or whether they added it manually (speaking 
personally I'd usually draw railway platforms as areas and I can 
certainly think of places where I'd draw a linear footpath along as 
well).  The emphasis has to be on "politely" - users accepting an 
editor's suggestion can't be blamed if they don't know the backstory.


Separately to that I've occasionally mentioned places where JOSM's 
suggestions don't seem right and the issue has always been addressed 
immediately by the JOSM developers, and I've never seen a response along 
the lines of 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649 , 
for example - they are more professional than that.   I therefore can't 
suggest, as I would with JOSM, to contact the developers about it directly.


It's perhaps also worth mentioning that I can think of at least one 
example where a particular editor was "effectively banned"* due to 
serious shortcomings.  In that particular case the bug was to rewrite 
all longitude values with a fixed value so that everything touched moved 
to a ring around the planet.  Clearly the current issue with iD is not 
even close to that level of seriousness, so "direct action" against any 
iD edits would be both unwarranted and out of proportion.


Note that this is intended to be an answer to "what can I, as an 
individual mapper do about this creeping data problem".  Answers 
involving "write a replacement for iD" fail somewhat the short-term 
practicality test.


Best Regards,

Andy

(writing in an entirely personal capacity)

* Specifically by looking for all edits by it and reverting them and 
taking other action to make users and the developers aware of the problem.




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Re: [Talk-hr] kuće bez broja

2019-05-27 Thread hbogner


On 27. 05. 2019. 13:02, Michal Fabík wrote:

On 26/05/2019 20:16, hbogner wrote:

Po zakonu RH kućni broj "BB" više ne postoji.

Zakon o prebvalištu:
https://narodne-novine.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeni/2012_12_144_3072.html

"Adresa u smislu ovoga Zakona je ulica ili trg i kućni broj 
evidentiran u registru prostornih jedinica što ga vodi nadležno tijelo."


Također:
https://www.uo-split.hr/ostalo/savjeti-za-obrtnike/kucni-broj-bb-ide-u-povijest-zatrazite-svoj-broj/ 

http://www.obrtnici-zagreb.hr/novosti/obrt-u-adresi-mora-imati-ku%C4%87ni-broj-oznaku-bb-treba-promijeniti 

https://www.tportal.hr/vijesti/clanak/bauk-ukidanjem-bb-adresa-postat-cemo-malo-uredenija-zemlja-20141108 



Vidim na listi ima link na https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JkY sa listom 
svih tih adresa. Sve te unose treba promijeniti da evidntiraju stvarno 
stanje


Ok, hvala na informaciji. Priznajem da nisam provjeravao u HR zakonu jer 
sam upravo zbog onog overpass queryja pretpostavio da je situacija u HR 
ista kao u BiH.


Lijep pozdrav,



Nema problema. Nisam ni ja provjeravao zakone dok nisi ovo pitao. Sjetio 
sam se da je bilo priče o ukidanju BB adresa pa sam sad nabrzinu istražio.

Sad još samo sve to moramo ažurirati u OSM bazi :)

Pozdrav, Hrvoje


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Re: [Talk-de] Workshop mit gemeinsamem mappen

2019-05-27 Thread Hauke Stieler

Hallo,

> Das ist eine gute Größe, aber das dürfte für eine Person schwer zu
> stemmen sein.

Ich bin auch für jede Hilfe und jede helfende Person offen und dankbar :)

> Wir haben in Bochum jetzt den 2. Workshop hinter uns und haben dabei
> sehr positive Rückmeldungen bekommen.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bochum/Community/Archiv
> 
> Beide Workshops haben wir am Bochumer Stammtisch vorher besprochen und
> vorbereitet, so dass erst einmal ein Vortrag mit einer Einführung in OSM
> gegeben wurde.
> 
> Also grundlegende Erklärung was OSM ist und danach grob die
> Editiermöglichkeiten Editor und Beschreibungen im Wiki ( how to map) und
> wie ein eigener Account angelegt wird.
> 
> Auch wie komme ich an Daten die ich nicht in der Karte sehe. Also
> Beispiele mit dem ? auf Openstreetmap.org und Overpass.

Ich glaube das übersteigt meine initiale Idee. Hatte tatsächlich einfach
an eine Schnupperstunde gedacht. Jeder mappt ein/zwei Häuser oder
ein/zwei kleine Wege und dann wars das. Möchte da tatsächlich eher ein
rudimentäres Verständnis vermitteln wie das mit den Tags funktioniert
etc. Wenn dann noch weiter Interesse besteht kann man das sicherlich
größer ausbauen.

> Ein weißer Fleck in der Umgebung ist mit Sicherheit ein guter Ansatz, da
> der direkt den Erfolg zeigt.
> 
> Aber tu dir einen Gefallen versuche nicht zu viel auf einmal.

Wie schon geschrieben, wenn jemand ein Haus und einen Weg mappt und das
gut findet, bin ich schon sehr zufrieden.

> 
> Also lieber in einem solchen Ort eine Straße so genau wie möglich mit
> Video und Fotos aufzuzeichnen und dann diese  Infos zu nutzen.
> 
> eine Straße als räumliche Begrenzung.
> 
> so genau wie möglich um die dortigen vielen Dinge zu zeigen.
> 
> Dadurch kannst du dann z.B. die Gebäude aus dem Luftbild zeichnen
> lassen, auf Neubauten und Abrisse eingehen, unklare Gebäude zeigen wie
> sieht aus wie ein Flachdach ist abr ein leerer Parkplatz usw. und wenn
> du Fotos der Hausnummern mindestens der wichtigen an den Kreuzungen und
> dort wo Abweichungen von 2,4 6, 8... wie 6a oder 12 ist das
> zurüchliegende Haus im Hintergrund. Auch Infos woran erkenne ich in dem
> Ort auf welcher Seite liegen die geraden und ungeraden Hausnummern, oder
> gibt es eine andere individuelle Nummerierung, wie komme ich mit einer
> Anfrage mit Nominatim die PLZ des Ortes sollte auch gezeigt werden
> könnnen. Wenn du dann noch die wchtigsten Geschäfte, Cafes und
> Restaurants mit den Öffnungszeiten aufgenommen hast, dann haben die
> Teilnehmer trotz Sesselmapping eine Menge gelernt.

Das klingt nach einer guten Idee einfach eine Straße abzulaufen und
viele Bilder zu machen, die dann genutzt werden können. Wenn ich das so
mache, werde ich mal schauen ob es in Hamburg und Umgebung geeignete
Orte gibt und dann definitiv hin fahren und Fotos machen.

> 
> Die Zeit wird dir aber selbst bei einer Straße schnell weglaufen.
> 
> Bei unserem letzten Workshop Innenstadtmapping, haben wir die
> Fieldpapers mit denen wir uns Notizen gemacht haben und die Fotos die in
> den 2 Stunden Rundgang gemacht wurden dann abends aufgeteilt. Mit dem
> Material wurde dann noch über eine Woche lang Daten eingepflegt.
> 
> Durch die Vorbereitung könntest du aber gut zeigen wie es geht und was
> in dem Fall immer wichtig ist wie schnell die gemachte Arbeit in der
> Karte dann auch sichtbar wird.

Das glaube ich gerne :D Vielleicht sind dann ja tatsächlich viele
motiviert und machen mit. Das wäre natürlich das Optimum, was passieren
könnte.

Vor allem zu sehen wie eine Minute Später die Änderungen für alle
sichtbar sind, ist bestimmt beeindruckend für die meisten.

> 
> Wenn du viele Bilder machst sind einige OSM-Flyer von Vorteil, die
> kannst du bei der Geofabrik von Frederik Ramm bekommen wenn du den per
> Mail anschreibst.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.de/impressum.html
> 
> Die Flyer sind auch für die Teilnehmer nützlich.

Werde ich mir definitiv merken, danke für den Hinweis :) Die kann man
auch gut einfach in unseren Fachschaftsräumen auslegen, da gibt es
bestimmt den ein oder anderen interessierten Leser.

> 
> Aber dein Ansatz ist gut. Mach es. Wie gesagt sinnvoll wenn du
> persönlich dein Ansinnen auf dem örtlichen Stammtisch anbringst und dort
> um Unterstüzung bittest.

Werde ich definitiv machen, der nächste Stammtisch ist bereits im
Kalender vermerkt ;)

Viele Grüße
Hauke



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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

In case that this is an undesirable wrong tagging one may request JOSM dev
to add validator rule fixing this.

You may also propose worldwide bot edit reverting such changes.

(note, I am not sure whatever either is a good idea, it is one of reasons why I 
did neither)

27 May 2019, 13:08 by winfi...@gmail.com:

> And the disease is spreading:
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Jnd 
>
> I'm scared. This needs to be mitigated, but indeed, how?
>

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Re: [Talk-it] highway=residential con access=permissive

2019-05-27 Thread Marcello

Per tornare all'oggetto del thread io metto "permissive" alle strade che
hanno un cartello di "Strada privata" ma senza nessun segnale di divieto
o barriere di accesso, tipo questa:
https://www.rivalta-trebbia.it/sentiero-nel-bosco-di-croara/. Lo
interpreto come proprietà privata, per cui il proprietario potrebbe
chiudere l'accesso se volesse, ma non segnalando in nessun modo che non
si può entrare concede il passaggio a tutti. Anche se ci fosse scritto
"Proprietà privata" metto access=permissive, ma non sono sicuro che sia
corretto, perché probabilmente per l'accesso in una proprietà privata
potrebbe esserci qualche norma del codice civile che stabilisce gli
eventuali diritti e potrebbe essere meglio mettere access=destination o
private. Se oltre ai citati cartelli c'è un cartello di segnaletica
stradale secondo me prevale su tutto, a meno di fare una verifica
amministrativa sull'autorizzazione a metterlo, che non è nostro compito.

Queste situazioni non sono affatto rare, secondo me potrebbero spiegare
il numero di access=permissive presenti.

Ciao
Marcello

Il 27/05/19 10:07, Martin Koppenhoefer ha scritto:
> Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 21:46 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt
> mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>>:
>
> in realtà “destination” è più permissivo di residenti, consente
> l’accesso a chiunque volesse andare a trovare i residenti e
> commercianti, include i visitatori, clienti, fornitori, ecc.
> In OSM il tag "access=residents" è poco utilizzato (1500x) e non
> documentato nel wiki.
> "access=resident" è utilizzato 50 volte, ma esiste una proposta
> wiki
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/access%3Dresident)
> del 2011.
> Hai ragione per esempio nei casi delle ZTL, dove può entrare solo
> chi ha un permesso, incluso i residenti.
>
>
>
>
> access=resident richiede che uno ha la residenza lì? Il domicilio? Un
> posto in un albergo? Posso andare a trovare un mio amico in macchina,
> se non ci abito io? I veicoli delle poste ci possono andare? I taxi?
> Per me access=resident non è specificato sufficientemente.
>
> Ciao,
> Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Workshop mit gemeinsamem mappen

2019-05-27 Thread Hauke Stieler

Hallo,

> Du brauchst pro 3 Teilnehmer einen erfahrenen OSMer, der als _Mentor_
> seinen Schützlingen sattelfest zeigen kann, wo sie im Wiki die Antwort
> auf ihre Frage finden, und wie sie den Text zu verstehen und zu
> interpretieren haben, und wie man das dann in schlüssige Attribute umsetzt.

Danke für deine Erfahrungen, ich denke auch, dass viele am Anfang vom
Wiki überschlagen sind, da es ja unglaublich reich an Informationen ist.

> Im Gegensatz zu früher gibt es aber heute keine weissen Flecken mehr...

Ist schwierig, denn zumindest hier in Hamburg (wo sich die meisten
auskennen werden) kenne ich auch keine wirklich weißen Flecken.

> Eine _Simulation_ könnte ein Ausweg sein:
> Du erstellst eine virtuelle Umgebung, löschst darin den Datensatz eines
> Dorfes, und hast damit ein jungfräuliches Gebiet.

Daran hatte ich auch schon gedacht. Gibt es eine gute Anleitung einen
eigenen OSM-Server zu hosten? Also der eben die entsprechende API für
JOSM o.Ä. bereitstellt? Ich kenne bisher nur das GitHub-Repo der
openstreetmap-website [0].

Wenn das ganze nicht zu aufwändig ist, werde ich es definitiv in
Betracht ziehen.

> Oder Du nimmst ein *Spezial-Thema*, das in dem ausgewählten Gebiet noch
> nicht gemappt ist (Hydranten; Hausnummern; Shops, Firmen und Kneipen;
> Wanderwegweiser, Bänke und Picnicplätze; Bushaltestellen und Bahnhof; ...)
> Du zeigst den TN, wie man einen OSM-Stadtplan ausdruckt, machst
> 2er-Teams, die auf Pirsch gehen und die Objekte und die zugehörigen
> Daten suchen, und dann tragt ihr gemeinsam (Tandem) die Ergebnisse ein.

In 2er Teams raus gehen und dann zusammen die Ergebnisse mappen ist
sicherlich das beste, aber wie schon vorher geschrieben für das eine
Seminar zu viel. Aber ich kann mir das für einen ausführlicheren
Workshop durchaus vorstellen.

Mir ging es in erster Linie darum den Leuten zu zeigen, wie das ganze
überhaupt funktioniert, sodass jeder sich etwas darunter vorstellen
kann. Quasi wie eine Schnupperstunde. Ich werde aber beim nächsten
Hamburg-Stammtisch dabei sein und vielleicht ergibt sich da ja ein
Schlachtplan :)

Viele Grüße
Hauke

[0] https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] join us at State of the Map

2019-05-27 Thread Pieter Vander Vennet

Ben and I will be joining too.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet


Op vr 24 mei 2019 om 17:39 schreef joost schouppe :

> Talking about money: now is the time to buy your tickets:
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/05/24/sotm-2019-ticket-sales-opened/
> Early bird community tickets are just 75 euro, which is probably less than
> the cost for the food you'll be getting during the event.
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Re: [talk-cz] Kam hlásit chyby v mapě?

2019-05-27 Thread Petr Schönmann

Ahoj Tondo,
nejideálnějším způsobem je poskytnout co nejvíce informací skrz Notes -
česky poznámky ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cs:Pozn%C3%A1mky ).
Pokud v poznámce bude i odkaz na fotku potvrzující skutečnost, bude to
skvělé.

po 27. 5. 2019 v 13:41 odesílatel Tonda  napsal:

> Zdravím,
>
> ve svém okolí občas narazím na nepřesnost nebo chybu v mapě, kam a jak
> nejlépe toto hlásit? Bohužel nemám kapacitu na to nastudovat jak správně
> editovat a provádět editace sám.
>
> Díky.
>
> Tonda
>
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[talk-cz] Kam hlásit chyby v mapě?

2019-05-27 Thread Tonda


Zdravím,

ve svém okolí občas narazím na nepřesnost nebo chybu v mapě, kam a jak 
nejlépe toto hlásit? Bohužel nemám kapacitu na to nastudovat jak správně 
editovat a provádět editace sám.


Díky.

Tonda

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Phil Wyatt

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dplatform

This suggests replacing highway=platform with public_transport=platform

Cheers - Phil

From: Jo [mailto:winfi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, 27 May 2019 9:04 PM
To: Richard Fairhurst
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to 
railway/public_transport=platform

I went to check a platform tagged as

highway=platform

which is perfectly alright.

iD tells me that's deprecated and suggests to change it to:

public_transport=platform

bus=yes

Then upon uploading it tells me another "improvement" can be made:

highway=footway

So they are transposing highway=platform to highway=footway. Odd.

Anyway, complaining about it on a mailing list doesn't have any effect, 
complaining about it on github will get the issue closed in no time.

I also think a time out for iD makes sense, until they will start to listen to 
the community. Tough call, of course and they know it.

Oh well,

Back to JOSM for me.

Jo

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:57 PM Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

Andrew Hain wrote:
> Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.
> Write a new online editor from scratch.
> Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.

Please stop trolling.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Jo

And the disease is spreading:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Jnd

I'm scared. This needs to be mitigated, but indeed, how?

Jo

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jo  wrote:

> I went to check a platform tagged as
>
> highway=platform
>
> which is perfectly alright.
>
> iD tells me that's deprecated and suggests to change it to:
>
> public_transport=platform
> bus=yes
>
> Then upon uploading it tells me another "improvement" can be made:
>
> highway=footway
>
> So they are transposing highway=platform to highway=footway. Odd.
>
> Anyway, complaining about it on a mailing list doesn't have any effect,
> complaining about it on github will get the issue closed in no time.
>
> I also think a time out for iD makes sense, until they will start to
> listen to the community. Tough call, of course and they know it.
>
> Oh well,
>
> Back to JOSM for me.
>
> Jo
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:57 PM Richard Fairhurst 
> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Hain wrote:
>> > Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.
>> > Write a new online editor from scratch.
>> > Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.
>>
>> Please stop trolling.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from:
>> http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-at] Allgemeine Hilfestellung

2019-05-27 Thread Martin Brunner

Herbert Allmeier schrieb:

> Ich muss schon sagen, dass die Mailinglisten von der Übersicht her nicht
> wirklich leicht verdaulich sind

Zum einen hängt das natürlich daran, dass man sein E-Mail-Programm selbst so
konfiguriert wie man es möchte. Dann ist es auch möglich, die Mails der
Mailingliste automatisch in einen eigenen Ordner verschieben zu lassen.

Zum anderen solltest du schauen wie man E-Mails auf eine Mailingliste richtig
beantwortet bzw. zitiert, siehe:
https://einklich.net/usenet/zitier.htm oder
https://pamer.net/usenet/zitieren.html

> Wenn man noch ein extra Programm brauche, damit ich die Ansichten überhaupt
> angezeigt bekomme und sie sinnerfassend zusammenhängen kann hört sich das 
> schon
> nach sehr viel drumherum an, welches in einem Forum einfach nicht nötigt ist.

Für das Forum brauchst du ja auch einen Software namens "Browser". Zugegeben
stammt die Technik von Mail und News noch aus einer Zeit, wo Recourcen eine
Rolle gespielt haben, aber das ganze basiert im Gegensatz zu Whatsapp, Foren &
Co auf einer offenen Technik, und gerade das ist im Zusammenhang mit Open Source
usw. ein wichtiger Punkt auf den man sich einlassen sollte.

> Bei so viel Aufwand, den man im Vergleich zu einem Forum betreiben muss, gibt 
> es
> sicher Vorteile, oder?

Ja, man kann das ganze in dem Format lesen, wie man es selber gerne hätte, und
nicht so wie es einem das Forum vorschreibt. Dinge lassen sich selber sortieren
und archivieren wie man es selbst für nötig hält, und auch die Baumansicht lässt
sich so einstellen wie bevorzugt. Letztendlich läuft das eben mit offener
Technik, braucht keine Anmeldung und lässt sich auch anonym verwenden.
Wer in erster Linie gewohnt ist alles über den Browser zu machen, wird
vielleicht die Vorteile nicht gleich sehen (wobei es vielleicht auch brauchbare
Web-Gateways gibt).

lg
Martin


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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Jo

I went to check a platform tagged as

highway=platform

which is perfectly alright.

iD tells me that's deprecated and suggests to change it to:

public_transport=platform
bus=yes

Then upon uploading it tells me another "improvement" can be made:

highway=footway

So they are transposing highway=platform to highway=footway. Odd.

Anyway, complaining about it on a mailing list doesn't have any effect,
complaining about it on github will get the issue closed in no time.

I also think a time out for iD makes sense, until they will start to listen
to the community. Tough call, of course and they know it.

Oh well,

Back to JOSM for me.

Jo

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:57 PM Richard Fairhurst 
wrote:

> Andrew Hain wrote:
> > Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.
> > Write a new online editor from scratch.
> > Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.
>
> Please stop trolling.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html
>
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Re: [Talk-hr] kuće bez broja

2019-05-27 Thread Michal Fabík


On 26/05/2019 20:16, hbogner wrote:

Po zakonu RH kućni broj "BB" više ne postoji.

Zakon o prebvalištu:
https://narodne-novine.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeni/2012_12_144_3072.html

"Adresa u smislu ovoga Zakona je ulica ili trg i kućni broj 
evidentiran u registru prostornih jedinica što ga vodi nadležno tijelo."


Također:
https://www.uo-split.hr/ostalo/savjeti-za-obrtnike/kucni-broj-bb-ide-u-povijest-zatrazite-svoj-broj/ 

http://www.obrtnici-zagreb.hr/novosti/obrt-u-adresi-mora-imati-ku%C4%87ni-broj-oznaku-bb-treba-promijeniti 

https://www.tportal.hr/vijesti/clanak/bauk-ukidanjem-bb-adresa-postat-cemo-malo-uredenija-zemlja-20141108 



Vidim na listi ima link na https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JkY sa listom 
svih tih adresa. Sve te unose treba promijeniti da evidntiraju stvarno 
stanje


Ok, hvala na informaciji. Priznajem da nisam provjeravao u HR zakonu jer 
sam upravo zbog onog overpass queryja pretpostavio da je situacija u HR 
ista kao u BiH.


Lijep pozdrav,

--
Michal Fabík


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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

On Monday 27 May 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
> The problem with this (and the longer thread on tagging), that it has
> had exactly 0 effect.
>
> As I see it we can choose between
>
> [...]

I think this is a too limited view of the options the OSM community has.  
I in particular see:

* a wide range of possibilities to offer iD on osm.org but not exactly 
what is being released without creating and maintaining a complete 
fork.
* a wide range of options for regulatory measures, not only on 
the 'developer behaviour regulation' front (which i have serious 
trouble with) but also on the technical level by requiring certain 
modularization so things like presets or validation rules can be easily 
replaced or disabled by deployments.

On a general note and w.r.t. what Markus wrote:

> * Automated Edits code of conduct
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct)
>: You take advantage of mappers unconsciously adding highway=footway
> to platforms. This is an automated edit.

it seems clear to me that any tool that leads mappers to unconsciously 
perform automated edits could and should be blocked from write access 
to the API and accordingly should not be available on osm.org.  I don't 
know if iD in its current configuation does this but this seems so 
obvious and self evident as a principle that it is not even necessary 
to codify this into written policy IMO.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Andrew Hain wrote:
> Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.
> Write a new online editor from scratch.
> Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.

Please stop trolling.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Phil Wyatt

I cant see how a new team of developers would help - they would be operating
under the same rules (which I suspect are pretty vague) as all the current
developers. Who at the moment dictates which editors can be used at osm.org?
If they don't like ID, they can get it turned off.

 

If the ID editor is the most popular it's probably for a good reason - it's
easy to use for newbies and intermediate mappers.

 

If the tags are wrong, ambiguous, duplicated or poorly defined then I
suggest fix the tagging system first so it's clear for all developers.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Andrew Hain [mailto:andrewhain...@hotmail.co.uk] 
Sent: Monday, 27 May 2019 8:27 PM
To: Simon Poole; talk@openstreetmap.org; osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway
to railway/public_transport=platform

 

Also:

 

Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.

 

Write a new online editor from scratch.

 

Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.

 

--

Andrew

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[Talk-se] Upphovsrätt på data och polygoner

2019-05-27 Thread Janos Steiner

Hej,

Jag uppdaterade gis-filerna på min ftp. Det finns i en mapp SÖVD
(kustvattenförekomster för södra Östersjöns vattendistrikt), bara
gränspolygoner utan öar.

Befintliga öar i OSM och i SMHI:s data  har olika noggrannhet och skapar
ett problem . Det är tidsödande att editera samtliga objekt.

Jag tror att vi behöver förenkla hela processingen "kustvattenförekomster i
OSM" genom att använda bara en representant från varje kustvattenförekomst,
den som har längsta perimetern (=boundary ).

[ http://geomatika.mapcat.net/COMMON/Projects/osm_version0_6.zip ] , 100 MB

Bästa hälsningar, Janos
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Wiklund Johan wrote:
> Adding footway to the platform serves no purpose but to please poorly
> built 
> routing engines.

Are there actually any such engines, or is this a post-facto justification?

OSRM has routed over platforms since 8 September 2013. Valhalla does - it's
multimodal and you can't do multimodal routing if you can't navigate the
platforms. Graphhopper does.

I could list about 20 editor tagging improvements that would make foot and
bike routing better, and this isn't one of them.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Andrew Hain

Also:

Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.

Write a new online editor from scratch.

Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.

--
Andrew

From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 27 May 2019 11:07
To: talk@openstreetmap.org; osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to 
railway/public_transport=platform

The problem with this (and the longer thread on tagging), that it has
had exactly 0 effect.

As I see it we can choose between

- doing nothing (seems to be most popular currently)

- wage an edit war by reverting any edits that clearly do not correspond
to best practices (not good)

- put in place a code of conduct for developers that want their code
deployed on osm.org and other OSMF sites with minimum requirements on
transparency and community interaction (the irony of this is not lost on
me, and it is not clear who would enforce this)

- deploy from a forked iD that is selective with respect to which
commits are integrated (IMHO too much work)

- engaging with the respective employers and ask them to rectify the
situation (obviously there's a big hole in this one)

That's probably about it.

Simon

Am 23.05.2019 um 18:11 schrieb Markus:
> Hello Bryan, hello everyone,
>
> I'm posting this reply to Bryan's message on GitHub
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649)
> here, as the issue has been locked by Bryan.
>
>> Hey all, I've locked this topic. Inviting other people to jump on the thread 
>> just to express disagreement is not very helpful.
> While i really appreciate the work you and the other developers have
> put into iD, i find it demotivating and harmful that you refuse other
> opinions.
>
>> Some people will disagree, and that's ok.
> So far, everybody except you disagreed. If there is a clear majority,
> i expect the iD developers to follow it.
>
> Moreover, this validation rule infringes upon these policies or guidelines:
>
> * Automated Edits code of conduct
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct):
> You take advantage of mappers unconsciously adding highway=footway to
> platforms. This is an automated edit.
> * Map what's on the ground
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground):
> A platform is not a footway.
> * Don't map for the renderer
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_for_the_renderer):
> It's rater "don't map for the router", but the effect is the same.
>
>> There exists no master list of all the routable features in OSM. This is 
>> because people are always making up tags. It is unreasonable to expect 
>> mappers and data consumers to "just know" what all the tags are that are 
>> routable.
> If the problem is the lack of a list of all routable features in OSM,
> then it should be solved by creating such a list, not by mapping for
> the router. (By the way, routable tags aren't added very frequently.)
> I guess it should also be possible to create a "routable" property for
> Wikibase (data items).
>
> I kindly ask you to reconsider your decision, to not block opinions
> that differ from yours and to listen more to the community.
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-27 Thread Simon Poole

The problem with this (and the longer thread on tagging), that it has
had exactly 0 effect.

As I see it we can choose between

- doing nothing (seems to be most popular currently)

- wage an edit war by reverting any edits that clearly do not correspond
to best practices (not good)

- put in place a code of conduct for developers that want their code
deployed on osm.org and other OSMF sites with minimum requirements on
transparency and community interaction (the irony of this is not lost on
me, and it is not clear who would enforce this)

- deploy from a forked iD that is selective with respect to which
commits are integrated (IMHO too much work)

- engaging with the respective employers and ask them to rectify the
situation (obviously there's a big hole in this one)

That's probably about it.

Simon

Am 23.05.2019 um 18:11 schrieb Markus:
> Hello Bryan, hello everyone,
>
> I'm posting this reply to Bryan's message on GitHub
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649)
> here, as the issue has been locked by Bryan.
>
>> Hey all, I've locked this topic. Inviting other people to jump on the thread 
>> just to express disagreement is not very helpful.
> While i really appreciate the work you and the other developers have
> put into iD, i find it demotivating and harmful that you refuse other
> opinions.
>
>> Some people will disagree, and that's ok.
> So far, everybody except you disagreed. If there is a clear majority,
> i expect the iD developers to follow it.
>
> Moreover, this validation rule infringes upon these policies or guidelines:
>
> * Automated Edits code of conduct
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct):
> You take advantage of mappers unconsciously adding highway=footway to
> platforms. This is an automated edit.
> * Map what's on the ground
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground):
> A platform is not a footway.
> * Don't map for the renderer
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_for_the_renderer):
> It's rater "don't map for the router", but the effect is the same.
>
>> There exists no master list of all the routable features in OSM. This is 
>> because people are always making up tags. It is unreasonable to expect 
>> mappers and data consumers to "just know" what all the tags are that are 
>> routable.
> If the problem is the lack of a list of all routable features in OSM,
> then it should be solved by creating such a list, not by mapping for
> the router. (By the way, routable tags aren't added very frequently.)
> I guess it should also be possible to create a "routable" property for
> Wikibase (data items).
>
> I kindly ask you to reconsider your decision, to not block opinions
> that differ from yours and to listen more to the community.
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
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Re: [Talk-hr] OSM meetup 2019-05-21

2019-05-27 Thread hbogner


Nastavak

## hbogner
- za TMS čekam da prođe sljedeći pull request: 
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/663 - dodajem jedan po 
jedan sloj na tu listu, za sad sve što je objavljeno na tms serveru

- objaviti na osm-hr.org ostale novosti

## task manager
- ima interesa za taskove
- ja mogu dignuti virtualku
- dodobas(i/ili Janko) testirati instalaciju pa produkciju na virtualku

## sindikat biciklista
 - poslao sam im info o 360 kamerama što mi je Mario prosljedio, evo i 
ovdje:

"
javio mi je *** da je gopro fusion najbolji u toj kategoriji
kaže da najbolje da gleda na http://360rumors.com/
tamo rade najbolje reviews
"
- poslali su mi invite na gdocs sa dvije strane teksta, bilo bi bolje 
staviti na https://pads.ccc.de/osm-hr-sindikat-biciklista radi 
izbjegavanja gdocs logina


## mnalis
- pomoći sa osm-replex skriptom:
- zaustaviti ako je greška na:
https://github.com/osm-hr/osm-replex/blob/master/replex.sh#L68
https://github.com/osm-hr/osm-replex/blob/master/replex.sh#L83
https://github.com/osm-hr/osm-replex/blob/master/replex.sh#L96
- bilo kakve druge korisne preinake :)

Pozdrav, Hrvoje

On 22. 05. 2019. 17:17, Matija Nalis wrote:

Natuknice o cemu se pricalo da ne zaboravimo:

- hbogner
   - JOSM sam provjerio ja sada - "osm-hr: Knin-2007 Aerial imagery" se
 uredno pojavio i u JOSM default presetima, tako da se na isti nacin
 mogu onda i ostali TMS-ovi prijaviti
   - objaviti na osm-hr.org novostima (i na TMS-u) i ostale setove podatka
 sto smo dobili na koristenje!
   - ponovno nalazenje negdje u 6/2019

- Task Manager - treba ga dignuti, pa u njega staviti razne taskove
   (mozemo krenuti s laksima pa dodavati druge - TK25 za vrhove i
nazive mjesta, LIDAR obrise zgrada (pogotovo gdje totalno fale),
itd)

- Sindikat biciklista
   - zna li netko upotrebljivu 360 kameru u rangu 4000-5000kn
 (snimanje biciklom na mapillary i ucrtavanje na OSM)?
   - vidjeti da li imaju jos stare raw snimke + GPX da to importamo
 u mapillary za historical usporedbe.
   - nova horizontalna signalizacija i Pravilnik
   - da ce javiti ideje sto bi im bilo korisno od podataka za
 biciklisticke staze kao custom tagove/relacije u OSM kojih trenutno nema
 (bic. semafori i oznaceni/neoznaceni prijelazi, sto ne
  zadovoljava novi Pravilnik o bic. stazama, sluzbene bic rute TZ
  i nesluzbene pravce kretanja kako je slagano na npr.
   http://sindikatbiciklista.hr/biciklom-kroz-grad/ i sl.
   - obostrana suradnja i pomoc oko biciklistickih staza i njihovog
 ucrtavanja na OSMu

Dopisite sto sam zaboravio

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 01:04:36PM +0200, hbogner wrote:

https://osm-hr.org/2019/05/15/osm-meetup-2019-05-21/

U utorak 21.05.2019. u 18:00, Geodetski fakultet, Kačićeva 26.

Nalazimo se u predavaoni Geodetskog fakulteta(naknadno objavimo točnu
prostoriju, bit će označen put do prostorije), gdje će se raspraviti
najbolji načini kako pristupiti obradi svih nedavno dobivenih podataka iz
Knina i Zagreba, te još neke druge novosti.

Kasnije nastavljamo druženje u nekom od okolnih ugostiteljskih objekata uz
pivo,vino,čaj, kavu ili napitak po želji.


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[OSM-talk-fr] ID suite

2019-05-27 Thread osm . sanspourriel


Value autocomplete wrong behavior


Tag autocomplete wrong behavior


Je ne trouve plus le fil de discussion où je parlais des problèmes d'ID.

Deux exemples ci-dessus : je signale que l'autocomplétion tant des clés
que des valeurs fait un peu n'importe quoi, proposant des valeurs fausses.

La réponse d'un des deux développeurs payés : vire les valeurs
incorrectes de la base comme ça elles ne seront plus proposées.

C'est de l'humour j'espère. Je ne sais si c'est qu'il n'a vraiment pas
compris ou si comme déjà dit, ils n'en ont rien à faire car ils ont
décider de baser ça bêtement à partir de taginfos.

Même sans utiliser le wiki il y a moyen de faire mieux mais visiblement
ils savent eux.

C'est gênant de voir un développement si peu communautaire dans une
brique importante de l'écosystème.

Jean-Yvon

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] éditeur ID

2019-05-27 Thread osm . sanspourriel


Value autocomplete wrong behavior


Tag autocomplete wrong behavior


Encore deux exemples ci-dessus : je signale que l'autocomplétion tant
des clés que des valeurs fait un peu n'importe quoi, proposant des
valeurs fausses.

La réponse d'un des deux développeurs payés est... de virer les valeurs
incorrectes de la base comme ça elles ne seront plus proposées. Curieuse
inversion de logique.

C'est de l'humour j'espère. Je ne sais si c'est qu'il n'a vraiment pas
compris ou si comme déjà dit, ils n'en ont rien à faire car ils ont
décidé de baser ça bêtement à partir de taginfos.

Même sans utiliser le wiki il y a moyen de faire mieux mais visiblement
ils savent eux.

C'est gênant de voir un développement si peu communautaire dans une
brique importante de l'écosystème.

Jean-Yvon

Le 01/05/2019 à 23:46, François Lacombe - fl.infosrese...@gmail.com a
écrit :

Bonsoir Jean-Yvon

Je partage ton constat, ils affichent bien leur position de ne pas
prendre en compte le wiki.
Ici encore dans cet échange où je leur suggérait de s'apuyer sur les
Data Items (récent ajout qui implément wikidata pour les tags sur le wiki)
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6206

"Sorry, but I'm really not interested in adding anything wiki as a
critical dependency on how iD works."

Certes le wiki n'a pas réponse à tout et manque parfois de fraicheur,
mais tout de même
Le problème c'est que iD rend aussi beaucoup de services et offre un
éditeur de qualité accessible et didactique. On ne peut pas lui enlever
Ce n'est pas une raison pour tout accepter

Issue ouverte pour location=kiosk
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6283

Bonne soirée

François

Le mer. 1 mai 2019 à 19:36, mailto:osm.sanspourr...@spamgourmet.com>> a écrit :

Récemment HebdOSM signalait que Frederik protestait contre la
manière d'agir des deux développeurs d'ID.

Développeurs d'un des deux principaux éditeurs d'OSM mais qui
fonctionnent au doigt mouillé sans tenir compte des listes de
discussion ou du Wiki.

Dernièrement je suis tombé sur une intersection entre un ruisseau
et une route correctement signalée par Osmose.

J'édite la route. ID me propose de mettre un nœud simple_brunnel.

Effectivement ça ne mérite pas plus.

Sauf que maintenant Osmose râle car bridge ne doit pas être
utilisé sur les points comme l'indique le Wiki
.

En cherchant j'ai trouvé une proposition datant de 2014 et a
priori jamais passée par un vote :


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Simple_one_node_culvert_or_bridge

Je pourrais entrer un ticket pour signaler le problème côté
Osmose. Sauf que c'est ID qui ne respecte pas la communauté, pas
Osmose.

Dans ce cas précis, proposer un vote pourrait donner une
légitimité pour un tag qui a été utilisé essentiellement en
2014-2015 (date de la proposition) et surtout en Autriche
.

20081
20131
2014153
2015250
201633
201785
201825
201913


Autre problèmes rencontrés avec ID, liste non exhaustive ça va de
soi :

- sur associatedStreet il propose address alors que le wiki dit de
privilégier housenumber (et par défaut ne propose pas non plus de
relation de type associatedStreet)

- sur bus stop/platform il propose network allors qu'Osmose dit de
ne pas utiliser network sur ces objets.

- il propose location=kiosk alors que cette valeur est dépréciée

- sur d'autres objets il va proposer aussi bien choix_numéro_1 que
choix-numéro-1 et le débutant va choisir au petit bonheur.

Comme vous le voyiez beaucoup des problèmes vient du fait que les
deux développeurs payés ne tiennent pas compte de la communauté.
Avec le risque que ce soit les visions des entreprise pour
lesquelles travaillent les deux développeurs qui décident de
l'avenir d'OSM.

Un point à aborder lors du SotM monde à Heidelberg ?

Jean-Yvon

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Re: [talk-cz] Upgrade OsmHiCheck

2019-05-27 Thread majkaz


Když funguji už rybářova žena, tak tři přání:
 
na mapě, rozdělit typ "chybného rozcestníku" stejně, jako je to u vyfocených, 
jen je dát šedivě - třeba jen stejnou ikonu jako na vyfocený objekt, ale ponechat jen 
obrysy objektu bez výplně. Tj. na information:board, information:map nedávat ikonou 
rozcestníku. Popřemýšlet, zda by nebylo možné nějak vizuálně oddělit chybný cyklo a pěší 
rozcestníkv gpx souboru:  změnit tak, aby ikony ukazovaly typ objektu, podobně jako to 
mám v příloze, a ne vše (většina) jako hvězdičkygpx soubor rozdělit, minimálně oddělit ty 
rozcestníky, jinak asi tak, jak navrhuješa bonusové přání: viz výše, ale přihodit jeden 
společný gpx soubor pro ty, co budou chtít vše najednou.
 
S tím současným gpx souborem už jsem se popasovala přes Locus (stejně ho používám nejvíc, pokud 
vyrážím na kole). Nakonec jsem to nechala vše v jedné složce, ale přes filtry jsem změnila ty ikony 
tak, jak je to vidět na tom přiloženém obrázku - tedy mám vizuálně oddělené rozcestníky / mapy / 
infotabule / body záchrany / "?" - tedy jen information. A na to vše dávám filtr podle 
vzdálenosti. Tedy přečkám to velké stahování a načítání, a pak změním ikony podle typů objektů. Na 
to hodím "zobrazit jen ve vzdálenosti do 25 km", takže mi toho spousta odpadne. Tím se 
zamezí načítání té obrovské spousty bodů při startu. 
 
Majka
 
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Od: "Tom Ka" 
Komu: "OpenStreetMap Czech Republic" 
Datum: 27.05.2019 10:37
Předmět: Re: [talk-cz] Upgrade OsmHiCheck



K deleni - podle poctu by mi davalo vic smysl:
- rozcestnik (vsechny nebo rozdelit zvlast silnicni?)
- infotabule
- ostatni (tj. mapy, emergency)


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Re: [talk-cz] proč se zobrazuje ikona chybějícího rozcetníku

2019-05-27 Thread Tom Ka

Byl jsi moc rychly, prepocitavani se deje kazdou hodinu cca v case XX:10-XX:20.

Bye

ne 26. 5. 2019 v 18:59 odesílatel Zdeněk Pražák  napsal:
>
> Nahrál jsem několik fotek rozcestníků a všiml jsem si, že se na 
> openstretmap.cz zobrazuje ikona chybějícího rozcestníku i v případech, kdy 
> fotka nebo i několik fotek je již u uvedeného rozcestníku nahráno
> viz například osmap.cz/node/4078331157
> nebo osmap.cz/node/2431481452
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Re: [talk-cz] Upgrade OsmHiCheck

2019-05-27 Thread Tom Ka

ne 26. 5. 2019 v 11:06 odesílatel majka  napsal:
> Co používáš za program v mobilu?
> Taky jsem s tím teď bojovala, a taky to považuji za nešikovné, už jen tím, že 
> narostla velikost souboru víc jak na dvojnásobek.
>
> Osobně bych to rozdělila podle druhu:
> - rozcestník
> - mapa
> - ostatní

Dneska jsme se s Marianem bavili ohledne rozdeleni pro vrstvy na
osmap.cz, tohle myslite spis pro ten GPX soubor je to tak?

K deleni - podle poctu by mi davalo vic smysl:
- rozcestnik (vsechny nebo rozdelit zvlast silnicni?)
- infotabule
- ostatni (tj. mapy, emergency)

Jinak to neni takovy problem, i kdyz to nebude uplne hned, mam toho
ted hodne a cekaji i weekly.

Bye

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[talk-cz] Is name=Automat na jizdenky MHD a good tagging?

There is group of 51 vending machines( http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JjV 
 ) tagged

* amenity=vending_machine
* name=Automat na jizdenky MHD
* operator=DPMB
* payment:coins=yes
* vending=public_transport_tickets

Is it a good idea to use name tag in this way?

It seems to me that it is similar to name=Restaurant amenity=restaurant
and that moving this to description tag would be preferable.
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Re: [Talk-it] highway=residential con access=permissive

Am Mo., 27. Mai 2019 um 06:47 Uhr schrieb canfe :

> Il segnale divieto di transito è per tutti i veicoli secondo il CdS, quindi
> anche bici e carretti.
> Volendo mappare 'realmente' come stanno le cose bisognerebbe far capire che
> non possono passare i veicoli a combustione interna (nelle regioni che
> hanno
> normato secondo questa linea politica)



scusate la mia ignoranza, a cavallo ci posso passare un divieto di transito
in Italia? E portando animali a piedi (esempio mucche o pecore)?

Ciao,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] highway=residential con access=permissive